Allagans in Tural?

For the first time in a while, I replayed Syrcus Tower and was rather surprised to notice that in the mob before Amon, the dragon is accompanied by several Mamool Ja.

Considering how they fought Meracydia (and how they had spaceships) it's clear that Tural was definitely in range for them, but do we know if they ever went there? The Mamool Ja could have wandered over the Salt like their mercenaries do in the current astral era, so them being in the Crystal Tower in and off itself proofes nothing.

Did anyone come across any information about Allag in Tural?

There are a few hints here and there that we might eventually stumble over something of Allag in the New World...but nothing too substantial just yet.

Off the top of my head the most explicit thing I remember is that in the weapons section of the Encyclopaedia Eorzea II, it explicitly says that Allag "conquered most of the Three Great Continents as well as portions of the New World".

As you suggested, it'd be weirder if they had never set foot there at all, so I imagine there are a few hooks to hang things on later if needed.

I was under the impression that the Mamool Ja-looking mobs in the Crystal Tower were more of an analogue to the "Thor" and "Haokah" palette-swapped monsters that were present in and around the Crystal Tower in FFIII rather than a representation of actual Mamool Ja.

But I guess anything is possible.

They are called Haokah, so that's a likely possibility, but it would be far from the first time, that things were adapted into being something other than what they originally were meant to be and fit pretty seamlessly into the story, as if they were always meant to be the new thing. Just look at what they did with Answers in Endwalker. ^^

As a neat bit of trivia and happy coincidences, the name Haokah is derived from "Heyoka": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heyoka. Though from a culture significantly further north than the Mamool Ja, it's possible the FF14 Haokah are their distant ancestors. The "Thor" enemies in the World of Darkness... possibly less so. They're the only yellow Mamool Ja we ever see—voidsent-possessed, perhaps? Or a Thirteenth equivalent, maybe?

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I was under the impression that the Mamool Ja-looking mobs in the Crystal Tower were more of an analogue to the "Thor" and "Haokah" palette-swapped monsters that were present in and around the Crystal Tower in FFIII rather than a representation of actual Mamool Ja.

But I guess anything is possible.

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Yeah, a very quiet joke in Syrcus Tower that's almost completely lost on the international audience is that every single trash spawn is directly pulled from an FFIII random encounter formation. I believe specifically the NES and Pixel Remaster version of III, too, the 3D version had smaller encounters.

Personally I kinda hope we don't see Allagans in Tural, because I think Dawntrail works well with a certain clarity of history; that because the only external presences in Tural are very specific and very quantifiable--basically Ketenramm, Koana's imports, and Alexandria--it's a very contained setting where there's not really extra factors muddying things; it's as clean a break from the existing stories of FFXIV as you can reasonably get without going too weird. And in this particular case, Allag not being around mostly helps Alexandria's story; not only does the distance help make it clear that Alexandria's entirely their own thing (which they need the help with, because some of their tech looks fairly Allagan), but them being the only source of supertech in the continent helps them stand as a presence; they wouldn't feel as unique and scary if there was Allagan stuff lying around.

While I would lean towards the Haokahs in Syrcus Tower just being repurposed models with no deeper purpose, the thought struck me today that:

1. Mamool Ja are somewhat like dinosaurs

2. Birds are naturally modified dinosaurs

3. The Allagans created bird-like Iksalions, presumably by modifying something that already existed...

I'd also like to point out that Noah in the post-floor 30 Eureka Orthos cutscene mentions that it was not the only such Allagan facility, which while out-of-universe is an open excuse to have another Deep Dungeon, it does open the possibility of one such facility being somewhere in Tural. Especially since the previously cited part of EE2 mentions they did conquer "portions" of it.

I've said it before (and I'll keep saying it), that I long for the day we're done with Allag, but the team has been very poignant about keeping that door open should they wish to use them again.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I've said it before (and I'll keep saying it), that I long for the day we're done with Allag, but the team has been very poignant about keeping that door open should they wish to use them again.

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An interesting element of Allag compared to other dead civilizations is that they don't necessarily have a story they're chained to. Amaurot, Mhach, Nym, theoretically Amdapor if they ever get anything, they're all inextricably linked to a singular story, one event and its surroundings. Allag, surprisingly, isn't; it's more a setting than a story. That means I've got the capacity to be more excited about them than I am about any other dead civilizations they've overused (which is basically just Amaurot; all the rest I'm interested in).

That still means there's places where it's not welcome. And that if we see another Allagan ruin it probably shouldn't be 'secret Crimes Against Nature research facility' again.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

That still means there's places where it's not welcome. And that if we see another Allagan ruin it probably shouldn't be 'secret Crimes Against Nature research facility' again.

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Unfortunately Allag gets treated like that is its story – the whole thousand years of its history revolving around being an evil empire from start to finish.

If there are links to the Allagans I rather hope that, if they appear, it's more toward the end of Dawntrail's story.

By all accounts Emet-Selch's suggestions (near the end of Endwalker) pertaining to where we should explore has become something of a 'tick-list' at this point, which means that we'll be visiting Meracydia at some point. And considering Meracydia's history it'd be difficult for any story there to not have a heavy Allagan influence.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Unfortunately Allag gets treated like that is its story – the whole thousand years of its history revolving around being an evil empire from start to finish.

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I wouldn't even mind that if we left War Crime R&D at some point and visited some other part of the evil empire.

Let's visit the remains of a resistance cell! Slums that stood the ravages of time better than the nobility somehow! 'Museum of Stuff We Stole'!

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I wouldn't even mind that if we left War Crime R&D at some point and visited some other part of the evil empire.

Let's visit the remains of a resistance cell! Slums that stood the ravages of time better than the nobility somehow! 'Museum of Stuff We Stole'!

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Would be nice to not always be hyper focused on Allagan research facilities story-wise, ye.

That said, we do have a few pieces.
The Boarderland Ruins map can be consctruded as a major Allagan city given things like manors and markets.
The mechanical part of The Burn is a mining facility, filled with automated worker drones.
And Azys Lla has pieces of landmass ripped from Meracydia, flora and fauna along with.

There are a few scraps on how life was like back in the empire’s hay day through item texts and interactables in dungeons as well.

I would not necesssarily say Allag was evil from start to finish, at least not with conviction.
We have heard that they went on a conquering spree under Xande, then declined for centuries and only went back to conquering, when Amon brought Xande back, via cloning. We know next to nothing about those times of not-Xande rule, both before his birth and the in-between period. Maybe the "decline", as seen from Amon's perspective, was them becoming peaceful and giving more rights and privileges to the conquered countries, which the hardliners saw as decadent weakness. Or it could be just a cavalcade of incompetence, with just as much evil intent behind it... we just don't know, but that also means there is plenty of open room for story-telling, if the writers want to explore it.

History does have a tendency to record the wars and catastrophes more than the times of peace and plenty.

As others said, with how important their conflict with Allag was, we will almost asuredly hear of them, once we go to Meracydia. Maybe we'll learn what they did in Tural, and more interestingly, why they stopped after taking only parts of it. Were they just not interested in the land, too preoccupied with their home content and Meracydia, or did something stop their expansion into the rest of Tural? Or was it just timing, with them just barely stepping onto Tural, when their decline started.

At this Point, I would love a full Allagan Expansion everything is better as DawnTrail.

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Originally Posted by No_Nick_Needed

I would not necesssarily say Allag was evil from start to finish, at least not with conviction.
We have heard that they went on a conquering spree under Xande, then declined for centuries and only went back to conquering, when Amon brought Xande back, via cloning. We know next to nothing about those times of not-Xande rule, both before his birth and the in-between period. Maybe the "decline", as seen from Amon's perspective, was them becoming peaceful and giving more rights and privileges to the conquered countries, which the hardliners saw as decadent weakness. Or it could be just a cavalcade of incompetence, with just as much evil intent behind it... we just don't know, but that also means there is plenty of open room for story-telling, if the writers want to explore it.

History does have a tendency to record the wars and catastrophes more than the times of peace and plenty.

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There was nothing of Allag before Xande's birth because he was its genesis. As for after Xande, the EE says that the subsequent emperors after his passing continued conquering, it wasn't just Xande who did that. They only stopped when there was nothing left to conquer on the Three Great Continents.

The book goes on to say that after that there was 300 years of peace and prosperity, though we know the empire lasted ~1000 years so only a smaller portion of it was actually peaceful. The empire started to decline after that 300 years. Suicide rates went up, birth rates plummeted, rebellions sprouted where there were bad leaders. And we don't know how good it was for everyone. We already know that the Allagans were prejudiced against Miqo'te and initially kicked them out of Eorzea to Corvos, where they still remain (and before the area had any revealed recorded history of proto-Garleans).

The empire was created and manipulated by the Ascians just like the Garlean Empire, to be lifted up to as great heights as possible, for it to come crashing down with such force that it breaks the world and eats another. Some individuals within the empire may certainly have had good intentions, but the empire as a whole was built for evil purpose and it can't just be pinned on Xande since his descendants perpetuated it, at least for a time.

Also, I'm gonna go cold-takes political here, but 'evil empire' is just a nice-sounding oxymoron. Empires can't exactly happen benevolently or accidentally, there is no possible not-evil empire. However, Allag were definitely 'going for bonus points' on evil, so to speak. Some of the stuff we find in Azys Lla (including the fish) suggests a level of cruelty for the sake of it, and yes that might come from the Ascians turning up the heat, but that doesn't really make it better.

Still would be nice, if we see more Allag, to get proper spotlight to something that isn't an evil laboratory of some kind. Shuuchi's list sounds nice, but the Meracydia recognition in Azys Lla amounts to a couple pieces of set dressing in Evil Lab Central, the Burn's ruins being a mining facility is very easily missed/forgotten and not particularly detailed, and the Borderland Ruins aren't even in the game anymore (given Astragalos, I'm not believing the 'temporary' on its removal until it's back). Surely, we can do better than that.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Shuuchi's list sounds nice, but the Meracydia recognition in Azys Lla amounts to a couple pieces of set dressing in Evil Lab Central, the Burn's ruins being a mining facility is very easily missed/forgotten and not particularly detailed, and the Borderland Ruins aren't even in the game anymore (given Astragalos, I'm not believing the 'temporary' on its removal until it's back). Surely, we can do better than that.

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I remember some people talking about an Allagan colony on another planet, given how the Allagans had interstellar travel capabilities. There is a beacon on Azys Lla meant for communicating across star systems as well.
But seeing how EW spawned a bunch of angry birbs outside Zodiark's barrier, that one turned out to be a bust...

...Or maybe we can find a colony of Allagan drones on a far away planet that built an empty city meant for their dead masters during the space exploration content. Imagine getting an Allagan housing district, haha!
Probably not, but I can dream...

Further on my Mamool Ja -> Iksalion theory (which I am still not actually trying to develop but it keeps coming to me), the Ixal also use a naming scheme from the same general region as Mamool Ja are from.

From the Hanu Hanu and Moblins and their similarities to the Vanu Vanu and Goblins, we can also infer that there very likely was some kind of cross continental migration going on, at some point of the ancient past. They are a bit too similar and name and culture, for tme to believe they just happened to develop so similarly, on two seperate continents, to be entirely unconnected since the sundering. I can think of worse theories, than the Allagans collecting some of them in Eorzea and shipping them to their new colony as slaves, or the other way around, capture them in Tural and ship them back home to be used there...
Now actually the latter makes a lot of sense to me. The Vanu Vanu live quite close to Azys La and the Goblins are obsessed with technology, where their Turali cousins are more down for jewelry and classical smithing. Maybe the Goblins picked up their fascination with tech from their former slave masters.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

There was nothing of Allag before Xande's birth because he was its genesis. As for after Xande, the EE says that the subsequent emperors after his passing continued conquering, it wasn't just Xande who did that. They only stopped when there was nothing left to conquer on the Three Great Continents.

The book goes on to say that after that there was 300 years of peace and prosperity, though we know the empire lasted ~1000 years so only a smaller portion of it was actually peaceful. The empire started to decline after that 300 years. Suicide rates went up, birth rates plummeted, rebellions sprouted where there were bad leaders. And we don't know how good it was for everyone. We already know that the Allagans were prejudiced against Miqo'te and initially kicked them out of Eorzea to Corvos, where they still remain (and before the area had any revealed recorded history of proto-Garleans).

The empire was created and manipulated by the Ascians just like the Garlean Empire, to be lifted up to as great heights as possible, for it to come crashing down with such force that it breaks the world and eats another. Some individuals within the empire may certainly have had good intentions, but the empire as a whole was built for evil purpose and it can't just be pinned on Xande since his descendants perpetuated it, at least for a time.

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We have to keep in mind that we actually know that Allag existed before it was an Empire. Their knowledge of summoning came from before those times, way before their aetherochemical revolution, when they were menaced by people who invoked eikons.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

We have to keep in mind that we actually know that Allag existed before it was an Empire. Their knowledge of summoning came from before those times, way before their aetherochemical revolution, when they were menaced by people who invoked eikons.

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I think you might be misremembering. Allag started with Xande as an empire and the first thing he did was to collect mages for his army to conquer Eorzea.

"Xande used his uncanny intelligence and charisma to build a nation that, while founded in science, did not deny the magic of the Second Astral Era."
"In less than a year, Allag was the largest nation in Eorzea and Xande crowned himself emperor."

Allag wasn't the victim being menaced by people with eikons, they were the ones menacing people who had eikons. And according to the EE, Aetherochemistry was a thing during Xande's time at the very beginning of the Allagan Empire. It's just that everything we're used to seeing of it is from the Late Allagan, during Amon's time. Amon was from 1000 years after Xande but it was an aetherochemical empire from the very beginning. The Third Astral Era was founded on science and eschewed magic, but it was Xande who brought magic and science together.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I think you might be misremembering. Allag started with Xande as an empire and the first thing he did was to collect mages for his army to conquer Eorzea.

"Xande used his uncanny intelligence and charisma to build a nation that, while founded in science, did not deny the magic of the Second Astral Era."
"In less than a year, Allag was the largest nation in Eorzea and Xande crowned himself emperor."

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This is a bit of an interesting passage, becuase if we take it literally then it's... sort of impossible? Like, you can't just come out the gate and found an empire day one; typically, a nation of another type becomes an empire, usually by conquering other nations. For some in-game-rooted examples, the Roman Empire has an origin pretty close to Garlemald, where a republic became an empire under one guy deciding to do things differently. The Mongol Empire started when the guy we know as Genghis Khan was elected leader of a bunch of different tribes, which you could potentially read as similar to Gulool Ja Ja (but I would argue probably isn't an especially accurate reading of either figure).

Put simply: there's no way that we aren't missing details here, because the founding of empires just don't work the way that the EE1 describes Allag's origins. What those details are, I couldn't tell you. My honest best guess is that Allag maybe started similar to the Mongols, as a pile of disparate tribes unified under one banner, but that's based on a reading of one sentence in the EE1.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I think you might be misremembering. Allag started with Xande as an empire and the first thing he did was to collect mages for his army to conquer Eorzea.

"Xande used his uncanny intelligence and charisma to build a nation that, while founded in science, did not deny the magic of the Second Astral Era."
"In less than a year, Allag was the largest nation in Eorzea and Xande crowned himself emperor."

Allag wasn't the victim being menaced by people with eikons, they were the ones menacing people who had eikons. And according to the EE, Aetherochemistry was a thing during Xande's time at the very beginning of the Allagan Empire. It's just that everything we're used to seeing of it is from the Late Allagan, during Amon's time. Amon was from 1000 years after Xande but it was an aetherochemical empire from the very beginning. The Third Astral Era was founded on science and eschewed magic, but it was Xande who brought magic and science together.

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See, because, Principia implies that it wasn't quite like that

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Originally Posted by "A Book with Bite":

Principia: In the beginning, the Allagans rose to superiority through their mastery of magecraft. It is told that the very first wielders of summoning magic made do with grimoires fashioned of leather and ink and parchment.

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It was just the largest nation in eorzea, and you don’t really need an enormous empire to declare yourself emperor for pr purposes. Maybe a cabin just outside your established territory to make sure no one’s going to argue about technicalities. Not like anyone would really complain, the calamity of fire sounded pretty thorough and unpleasant. It wouldn’t really have to be that much bigger than rowena’s current empire, which may be deliberately mimicking allag - base by the crystal tower, further expansion into the ruins of a now-gone civilisation, having adventurers bringing Allagan information storage units in their thousands etc.

I don’t really see any reason to dismiss it out of hand unless there’s some extra lore added. Not like the player hasn’t effected rapid and drastic change, and that’s without any help from the empire builder hobbyist.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

This is a bit of an interesting passage, becuase if we take it literally then it's... sort of impossible? Like, you can't just come out the gate and found an empire day one; typically, a nation of another type becomes an empire, usually by conquering other nations. For some in-game-rooted examples, the Roman Empire has an origin pretty close to Garlemald, where a republic became an empire under one guy deciding to do things differently. The Mongol Empire started when the guy we know as Genghis Khan was elected leader of a bunch of different tribes, which you could potentially read as similar to Gulool Ja Ja (but I would argue probably isn't an especially accurate reading of either figure).

Put simply: there's no way that we aren't missing details here, because the founding of empires just don't work the way that the EE1 describes Allag's origins. What those details are, I couldn't tell you. My honest best guess is that Allag maybe started similar to the Mongols, as a pile of disparate tribes unified under one banner, but that's based on a reading of one sentence in the EE1.

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It's more than just one sentence in EE1.

You need to remember the context in which Xande began his empire. After the Second Umbral Era, magic was taboo. Xande collected the descendants of priests and witches from the Second Astral Era and formed a powerful mage corps. None of his enemies had magic or at least anything close to the extent that he did. It's like bringing bombs to a battlefield where everyone else is hitting each other with sticks. In that context, it's very easy to create a powerbase and the conquer everyone else around you and form an empire in 1 year, exactly as the book describes.

The Allagans also had Ascians scripting the entire creation of the Allagan Empire, which certainly helped as well. Xande very well likely had Emet-Selch's help orchestrating the opening act from what the man himself had described. He even said that Garlemald paled in comparison to Allag. The Garleans have no magic, nor even the capacity to wield it. They were only able to fight on equal footing with guns, contracts with voidsent, and Roegadyn battle mage mercenaries. It wasn't until Emet-Selch that magitek took off and they were able to make an empire.

Now think of a world that had just forsaken magic because of its role in the previous umbral era and 1 guy gathers together all the outcast mages. With the power of magic while everyone else has none, there wasn't much in his way and Allag was able to conquer much faster and more efficiently than anything in our world or even the Garleans. Plus, Emet-Selch probably uplifted the magical understanding of early Allag just like he uplifted the science of Garlemald.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

See, because, Principia implies that it wasn't quite like that

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What I took was straight from Eorzea Encyclopedia. But just because they were using tomestones at the end of the Allagan Empire doesn't mean they weren't using books a thousand years previously when Xande initially started conquering everything and rebels with eikons were opposing them.

Besides, the section of Allag regarding Aetherochemistry says that the first bits of it were siege weapons and cranes. They had to start somewhere and didn't make airships and computers directly after bashing two rocks against each other. But the empire was founded upon that early combination of magic and machine and it continued ever since.