Fixing Mch

So I'm making this to put down my thoughts on what should be done to fix Mch at this point. There's really no denying the class is in a bad spot for what it's suppose to be, and something needs to be done about.

Most of my recommendations will be pulling Mch back to where it use to be.

1-2-3 Combo: There's currently nothing fundamentally wrong with the 1-2-3 Combo, but it's pretty generic at this point. I think it would be interesting to pull it back to actually work with the heat system, but I would be much more interested in them reintroducing the bullet system. Maybe instead of making it a random chance, make the bullet buff the next shot in the combo.

Bring back Rook Autoturret and Bishop Autoturret. Don't tie them in with Automaton Queen.
-Overload: Rook and Bishop Overload should be a CD skills that tie in with the turrets as big attacks that work with it.
-Overdrive: Buff that causes the Turrets auto-attack to debuff the enemy to cause the entire raid to deal 5% more damage.

Wildfire: This should deal a % damage of the total amount of damage dealt by the MCH within the Wildfire window. Not just Weaponskills, and not based off the number of Weaponskills performed in the window.

Tactician: This is the exact same skill as Brd's Troubadour and Dnc's Shield Samba. Which is fine, but it's not a good enough skill to justify Mch's damage being where it's at.

Dismantle: This should be the debuff applied by the turrets to increase party damage. Personally I think it should increase party damage, and lower targets damage, but I don't know if that's just being unreasonable or not.

Flamethrower: This needs a complete overhaul. It's current state is because of how heat build up originally worked, but that's changed and the heat build up has been removed, so now it's a useless skill.

Bioblaster: This should not share a CD with Drill, and probably have it's dot damage increased by 10-20 points, and should be an OGCD skill.

Automaton Queen: This should not tie in with the Turrets at all, and just continue working how it currently does.

I don't think any other skills really need a change. These are just the big ones.

Auto-crossbow needs to recharge the oGCDs like its single target counterpart! That's one of the worst design flaws.

Flamethrower could simply 'ignite' Bio Blaster's dot for an even stronger burning dot on top of its damage.

Other than mechanical changes, MCH also need to stray away from the 'selfish' party buff spot. I know it's what it makes the job unique, but I don't see how that is able to exist in a viable way without hurting too BRD and DNC too much.

Imagine if MCH brought Ninja levels of DPS... It would outclass the other aiming jobs.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Auto-crossbow needs to recharge the oGCDs like its single target counterpart! That's one of the worst design flaws.

Flamethrower could simply 'ignite' Bio Blaster's dot for an even stronger burning dot on top of its damage.

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Oh, I like these ideas.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Other than mechanical changes, MCH also need to stray away from the 'selfish' party buff spot. I know it's what it makes the job unique, but I don't see how that is able to exist in a viable way without hurting too BRD and DNC too much.

Imagine if MCH brought Ninja levels of DPS... It would outclass the other aiming jobs.

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Since you added stuff, I will too. :P I actually think it shouldn't, I think it should be dealing Ninja levels of DPS. Brd and Dnc are suppose to be the Support jobs. With returning the damage increasing debuff back to Mch, it would still be more about Buffing the Mch's own damage during it's Wildfire burst phase, than about actually giving everyone else the buff.

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Originally Posted by Alchemii

Since you added stuff, I will too. :P I actually think it shouldn't, I think it should be dealing Ninja levels of DPS. Brd and Dnc are suppose to be the Support jobs. With returning the damage increasing debuff back to Mch, it would still be more about Buffing the Mch's own damage during it's Wildfire burst phase, than about actually giving everyone else the buff.

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But if you think about it... and talking rDPS here, if MCH is buffed so much that goes beyond RDM and on pair with NIN, then it suddenly becomes the optimal candidate for the Phys Ranged slot.

Why anybody would bring dps buffers BRD and DNC when MCH can suprass them even with their outsourced damage accounted for? It would be very imbalanced, unless they add an essential variable to tip the scales (eg. a rez to BRD and DNC).

I personally love the single target rotation for Mch, prolly my favorite rotation of all jobs so far that ive played in depth. Still have issues with it though, the damage takes a massive nose dive after doing your brust, its basic combo very much needs a potency increase. Now its AoE rotation on the other hand is prolly one of worst... massive cluster fuck with hardly any skills collaborating with eachother, for starters 100% Autocrossbow needs to have same oGCD charge as Heat Blast/Blazing Shot and Flamethrower a potency increase to make it worth using. Beyond that Flamethrower(needs gauge building) and Bio Blaster(doesnt work with reassemble) just need a flat out reworks, along with some means of AoE with Battery Gauge, either AoE atks on Queen or an entirely different automaton.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

But if you think about it... and talking rDPS here, if MCH is buffed so much that goes beyond RDM and on pair with NIN, then it suddenly becomes the optimal candidate for the Phys Ranged slot.

Why anybody would bring dps buffers BRD and DNC when MCH can suprass them even with their outsourced damage accounted for? It would be very imbalanced, unless they add an essential variable to tip the scales (eg. a rez to BRD and DNC).

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That was always the point though. Brd and Dnc are suppose to give enough buffs to the entire party that they make up for their lower dps and make them viable options, while Mch is suppose to be the Greedy Ranged that deals enough damage to make it a viable option. However, as it stands right now, Mch isn't a viable option at all it. Last I checked it wasn't even beating out Brd or Dnc in DPS the category it's suppose to focus on.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

I personally love the single target rotation for Mch, prolly my favorite rotation of all jobs so far that ive played in depth. Still have issues with it though, the damage takes a massive nose dive after doing your brust, its basic combo very much needs a potency increase. Now its AoE rotation on the other hand is prolly one of worst... massive cluster fuck with hardly any skills collaborating with eachother, for starters 100% Autocrossbow needs to have same oGCD charge as Heat Blast/Blazing Shot and Flamethrower a potency increase to make it worth using. Beyond that Flamethrower(needs gauge building) and Bio Blaster(doesnt work with reassemble) just need a flat out reworks, along with some means of AoE with Battery Gauge, either AoE atks on Queen or an entirely different automaton.

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That's why I was recommending bringing back the turrets. Rook turret is a Single Target Auto Attack, while Bishop turret is a AOE Auto Attack. Flamethrower though..... Since they changed up the heat system, it really has no purpose now, and Bio Blaster is just dot applier, I can't think of any dots that work off crits now. Though I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Alchemii

the class is in a bad spot for what it's suppose to be

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It's perfect in my opinion. It feels like a gun job that blasts gunshots. One of my favorite jobs really.

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1-2-3 Combo: There's currently nothing fundamentally wrong with the 1-2-3 Combo, but it's pretty generic at this point.

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Gives time to weave stuff and focus on mechanics though. I think it's good.

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I think it would be interesting to pull it back to actually work with the heat system

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The combo adds heat, and therefore interacts with the heat system.

If you mean how it used to work, the combo had boring animations compared to Bard until you got enough heat. That's why they made those animations permanent in the first place.

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I would be much more interested in them reintroducing the bullet system.

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I agree that was an interesting and logical way to try and make a gun job. Where you recharge your ammo. It just was kinda flat and boring compared to what Bard was doing, so they had to make it more exciting - which is why we got a job that uses machines of various types.

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Maybe instead of making it a random chance, make the bullet buff the next shot in the combo.

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Definitely think the random chance wouldn't work. It felt like "missed attacks" that we got due to lack of accuracy and still get due to level difference. It feels awful when your combo breaks due to this. Again, this fell flat when compared to Bard, so everyone just played Bard instead after its Stormblood revamp.

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Wildfire: This should deal a % damage of the total amount of damage dealt by the MCH within the Wildfire window. Not just Weaponskills, and not based off the number of Weaponskills performed in the window.

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That's how it used to be mostly but you know, the game has changed. To account for ping, they now use stacks, so there is a fixed number to make it fair for all.

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Dismantle: This should be the debuff applied by the turrets to increase party damage. Personally I think it should increase party damage, and lower targets damage, but I don't know if that's just being unreasonable or not.

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This was actually added back to the game because extra damage reduction or utility was needed for some reason or another to make MCH able to compete.

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Flamethrower: This needs a complete overhaul. It's current state is because of how heat build up originally worked, but that's changed and the heat build up has been removed, so now it's a useless skill.

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It works as an AoE. It ticks every second instead of every 3 seconds like everything else.

You had me at the ammo system being brought back to the fold. The filler of this job is utterly boring compared to how engaging it used to be with ammo and this also played into making the job engaging even during fillers outside of bursts, which a lot of jobs in the current job design fundamentally lack, turning them into resident sleeper rotations once the burst is done. Juggling with procs and triaging them was what made those fillers interesting in the case of MCH. And the job actually used to burst every minute on top of it. It's somewhat ironic that it currently has higher APM than it used to have but with twice less burst sequences.

Hypercharge is just mindless spamm. The only thing I appreciate with hypercharge is that I can decide when I want to use it, and them adding charges to Drill was the biggest change of this expansion in my opinion since it stops constraining where to use hypercharge so much.

The job lost its fundamental core identity that was the highest burst dps job in the game period when it got reworked. This was tied to WF compiling the whole damage done and it felt absolutely great when you got it right. It felt also great chasing after big numbers and constantly striving to achieve the biggest Wildfires possible. This has been axed from the job entirely. Now that we have stacks on hypercharge to alleviate ping problems I think it should be considered to bring it back somewhat.

The current Heat system is a boring, bland resource gauge no different from the others, when it used to be unique and involve very specific, flavorful mechanics proper to the job (barrel lockout, underheat, heat, and overheat), that not only interacted with the base combo, but also with other tools that actually reduced heat like reloads and cooldown (heat blast).

Current battery is excruciatingly boring and unsatisfying since it just fills up when using clean shot and some tools, and you just press it for bursts like an afterthought. Paradoxically, it currently proves a little more involved since the battery plans have become as lopsided as the heat plans and you generate more than 200 battery every 2min in DT now, which requires to use Queen twice in the filler at specific amounts/timings, all of them different per minute which means memorizing long tedious spreadsheets much like for when to hold heat or not before each burst. This needs to go honestly.

Bringing back the bishop turret found in its current pvp form would be a boon for the job and would not only refit it closer to the ranged physical stated purpose of "buffing support job" as described on the XIV job guide page, but also bring unique pulsing barriers to toy with for support tools.

Flamethrower is the elephant in the room and it's incredible that it's not been reviewed since ShB: it's barely competitive with the other AoE tools mathematically and only if you're not able to spend heat before the end (which, funnily enough in dungeons, the end is not the end of a pull, but the end of the dungeon...). It's quite obvious the devs have no idea what to do with it beyond a glorified emote, and it's a shame because the tool was actually a cornerstone of the job in SB (clunk or no clunk). In fact, in AoE it was used similarly to how Apokalypsis is used on BLU currently by snapshotting it at the end of the overheat window for a crazy amount of sustained damage. Compared to what we have now, it's incredibly depressing how much the job has lost with all those cuts. There has been many ideas advanced by people to fix FT, like for example detonating the bioblaster dot, or just generating heat gauge (tied to the amount of enemies hit), or actually consuming heat gauge for a big potency effect, or as a direct, more potent competitor to ACB but with mobility and range constraints. Possibilities are legion.

AoE overall is in an incomplete, weird state. Battery is still completely useless in this scenario and I actually expected Crown Collider when introduced in EW to address the issue, but apparently not, it was made single target. Not only that, but the introduction of Chainsaw actually generates battery and IS an AoE tool, battery that you can't really use for AoE beyond hitting a single target of the pack for little value, which feels frankly ass. Autocrossbow still doesn't recharge Double Check and Checkmate, which with the added potencies introduced for DT on Blazing Shot and those, makes the use of ACB incredibly less valuable comparatively and pushes it further down the line to 5+ targets now (equal at 4). The 2nd charge added to Bioblaster due to Drill changes feels underwhelming even if it does something.

Or perhaps pvp bishop could be summoned with a set amount of battery as well, used in AoE, but also for single target to trigger raid buffs (as old hypercharge did on the targets).

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Originally Posted by Alchemii

That was always the point though. Brd and Dnc are suppose to give enough buffs to the entire party that they make up for their lower dps and make them viable options, while Mch is suppose to be the Greedy Ranged that deals enough damage to make it a viable option. However, as it stands right now, Mch isn't a viable option at all it. Last I checked it wasn't even beating out Brd or Dnc in DPS the category it's suppose to focus on.

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Yeah, but the point is that the overall - after buff contribution - should be competitive between the 3 of them. I know right now is not a good picture because MCH is too low - but then if it's too high we just invert the problem.

DNC and BRD are supposed to have low personal dps by design, but in the end all that matters is that plus the "outsourced contribution" given by the buffs.

If somehow the status quo gets a rebalance by increasing MCH's personal potency to be on par with DNC and BRD's rdps, it would be a never-ending balancing game every patch, to match the gains those jobs get with other people's new ilevels of gear. That's why I think MCH as a selfish dps in this group is an unsustainable choice.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Bringing back the bishop turret found in its current pvp form would be a boon for the job and would not only refit it closer to the ranged physical stated purpose of "buffing support job" as described on the XIV job guide page, but also bring unique pulsing barriers to toy with for support tools.

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Yea my thought was to bring it back how it use to be. You summon it onto the field where it does auto-attacks, then you trigger a skill that makes it apply a debuff on the enemy with the auto attacks that acts as a support for the rest of the party. Which is what it current does in pvp, plus the added benefit of not having to redeploy if some how a pack of mobs lasts long enough for a second go.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Yeah, but the point is that the overall - after buff contribution - should be competitive between the 3 of them. I know right now is not a good picture because MCH is too low - but then if it's too high we just invert the problem.

DNC and BRD are supposed to have low personal dps by design, but in the end all that matters is that plus the "outsourced contribution" given by the buffs.

If somehow the status quo gets a rebalance by increasing MCH's personal potency to be on par with DNC and BRD's rdps, it would be a never-ending balancing game every patch, to match the gains those jobs get with other people's new ilevels of gear. That's why I think MCH as a selfish dps in this group is an unsustainable choice.

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If we drop that then we move back to the current problem we're having with all jobs. That being homogenization. If you remove the core identity of Mch it's just gonna be Brd and Dnc. Sure it'll be easier to balance then, but it's also not going to be any different to play. Bring back it's old random chance mechanics as a buffer, well then it's just Dnc. Don't bring them back then it's just a less flashy Brd. It needs to keep it's identity as the Self Burst DPS, or at least the Self Ranged DPS. Honestly the solution would probably be to bring it back to the Highest Burst DPS while having very low dps between bursts. This would mean the sustained damage buffs of Brd and Dnc would still be viable, and Mch could keep it's identity while holding an actual useful place in the party. But that would involve them needing to make DPS checks important in fights again.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Yeah, but the point is that the overall - after buff contribution - should be competitive between the 3 of them. I know right now is not a good picture because MCH is too low - but then if it's too high we just invert the problem.

DNC and BRD are supposed to have low personal dps by design, but in the end all that matters is that plus the "outsourced contribution" given by the buffs.

If somehow the status quo gets a rebalance by increasing MCH's personal potency to be on par with DNC and BRD's rdps, it would be a never-ending balancing game every patch, to match the gains those jobs get with other people's new ilevels of gear. That's why I think MCH as a selfish dps in this group is an unsustainable choice.

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We're repeating the same patterns than in Endwalker so far. Rphys (and SMN/RDM) start 8-10% in total combined damage (personal + raid buffs + raid buff use aka cDPS) behind the melees + BLM/PCT, will probably get buffed a little for the next tiers and the difference may go down to 5ish % as it did in EW later. MCH also starts even lower than BRD/DNC exactly like in EW (I believe at EW launch it was somewhere like 13% behind the melees, absolutely batshit insane), and got buffed with every ranged for x.1, but also had to be rebuffed individually regularly because it just can't follow gear stat increases due to playing into raid buffs less well than actual selfish DPS jobs worth their salt.

MCH is in a terrible position bc I feel like the devs look at phys ranged as a whole and say "ehh they have free movement and it's easier to play, so we can worry about that later".

I only play MCH in ST fights. It feels SO bad to use in AoE content. The rotation for AoE is awkward and unsatisfying.

Flamethrower is basically an emote and that fixes you in place. Why not just give us the option to place a flamethrowing turret down instead?

Auto Crossbow doesn't recharge the oGCDs which is weird in itself.

I honestly want them to make Wildfire be able to crit (no not auto crit) or just scrap it altogether.

I honestly think that the job gimmick should be piloting a mech to do enhanced abilities. Outside of the burst, you set up with machinery to power said burst.

It's stuck inbetween wanting to be a gunslinger and an engineer.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

MCH is in a terrible position bc I feel like the devs look at phys ranged as a whole and say "ehh they have free movement and it's easier to play, so we can worry about that later".

I only play MCH in ST fights. It feels SO bad to use in AoE content. The rotation for AoE is awkward and unsatisfying.

Flamethrower is basically an emote and that fixes you in place. Why not just give us the option to place a flamethrowing turret down instead?

Auto Crossbow doesn't recharge the oGCDs which is weird in itself.

I honestly want them to make Wildfire be able to crit (no not auto crit) or just scrap it altogether.

I honestly think that the job gimmick should be piloting a mech to do enhanced abilities. Outside of the burst, you set up with machinery to power said burst.

It's stuck inbetween wanting to be a gunslinger and an engineer.

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I don't think Mch being a Gunslinging Engineer is a bad thing. It's a pretty solid techno fantasy archetype, which is the place the genre that FFXIV falls into. Even during 1.0, that's to Garlemald being Garlemald, it's been a Techno Fantasy, and Mch leans more into the Tech than the Fantasy side of it. So using Gadgets and Guns kinda feels right for it. Even in the quests for the class we're advancing technology for defensive and offensive measures, mostly offensive.

That being said I do think we need more proper Tech based jobs. Right now we have Mch, and on a technicality Sge and Gnb. However, Sge is more fine tuned magic tools, and Gnb does really keep the TECH feel. So getting a proper tech job would probably help. I could see a Mech focused job as more of a Tank thing.

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Originally Posted by Alchemii

So getting a proper tech job would probably help. I could see a Mech focused job as more of a Tank thing.

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I think depending on the next phys ranged job, it just might be.

I do think they kind of messed up with MCH. I would have preferred a pet based type of engineer that upgrades his tools/mecha as the gimmick.

A proper gunslinger job should have been the new phys ranged job, focusing on using different guns.

Alas, another BRD/Ranger situation.

I don't mind the split between gunslinger and engineer fantasy, but I just wished they would lean more into the engineering aspect.

MCH used to have pets and COULD upgrade and tinker with them notably in HW with Turret Promotion (swapping damage to MP/TP party sustain) and old Hypercharge that was doubling damage or sustain depending on the turret's mode, and applying target vuln to targets (aka raid buffs). Now it's like a glorified modern summoner.

I do feel like not enough people realize how much has been lost on that job since ShB axed everything. I've raided savage with it for this tier, and I can confidently say that it still feels like a shit sandwich, and like for ShB where I dropped the job immediately after the first tier, I'm gonna do the same here. It's too bad, because I've always loved the aesthetic of the job.

from what I've heard of it, it seemed like MCH didn't have range tax before ShB and managed it by being much more complex to play? I do think it's acceptable for the job to do dps comparable to BLM/VPR/SAM if more gauge management and RNG were involved, diverting attention to your UIs more in exchange for less focus on positioning.

If the current playstyle should be kept for those who do enjoy it that should be moved to a new rphys job imo.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

MCH is in a terrible position bc I feel like the devs look at phys ranged as a whole and say "ehh they have free movement and it's easier to play, so we can worry about that later".

I only play MCH in ST fights. It feels SO bad to use in AoE content. The rotation for AoE is awkward and unsatisfying.

Flamethrower is basically an emote and that fixes you in place. Why not just give us the option to place a flamethrowing turret down instead?

Auto Crossbow doesn't recharge the oGCDs which is weird in itself.

I honestly want them to make Wildfire be able to crit (no not auto crit) or just scrap it altogether.

I honestly think that the job gimmick should be piloting a mech to do enhanced abilities. Outside of the burst, you set up with machinery to power said burst.

It's stuck inbetween wanting to be a gunslinger and an engineer.

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I wish you could at least turn or move with a speed penalty(like Powerful Shot and Blast Charge in PvP) while channeling Flamethrower. The fact that any movement at all instantly cancels something on a 1-minute CD and is so awkward to use in a way that actually makes it worth using just makes me not bother with it.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

from what I've heard of it, it seemed like MCH didn't have range tax before ShB and managed it by being much more complex to play? I do think it's acceptable for the job to do dps comparable to BLM/VPR/SAM if more gauge management and RNG were involved, diverting attention to your UIs more in exchange for less focus on positioning.

If the current playstyle should be kept for those who do enjoy it that should be moved to a new rphys job imo.

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There in lines the problem that triggered SE to change it in the first place. People that enjoyed Mch understood that and how the job played and could really get he damage out, the problem came to people that didn't understand it. A lot of them complained that the job was too "Clunky", and they couldn't figure out how to make it work. Every other job at the time had set rotations usually within a 1min window that they could line up with everyone else, but not mch. Mch you had to think about stuff like how long other classes had for their buffs to come up and weather it was worth holding a skill for it. Mch damage also confused the people that weren't well versed in MMO's at the time. Most experienced MMO players understood Mch was a burst DPS, so when they Bursted it was BIG numbers, but between bursts they did very little damage. So since many of them didn't know how to read DPS charts at the time, they thought Mch wasn't really doing that much damage, but in truth they were usually in the top 3 of overall damage.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

from what I've heard of it, it seemed like MCH didn't have range tax before ShB and managed it by being much more complex to play? I do think it's acceptable for the job to do dps comparable to BLM/VPR/SAM if more gauge management and RNG were involved, diverting attention to your UIs more in exchange for less focus on positioning.

If the current playstyle should be kept for those who do enjoy it that should be moved to a new rphys job imo.

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It had a ranged tax like Bard actually, and has had it since HW, but you could ignore it if you had a DRG that essentially gave to rphys jobs +10% damage from piercing synergy in HW, and +5% in SB, which was the way to offset or even outcome the ranged tax especially in HW where double rphys became very meta. The difference was that the party boni weren't handing 1% damage per role filled to everybody, but having a tank would give you VIT +5% (was it?), having a melee DPS STR +5%, having a rphys +5% DEX, etc, which was not doing much for parties where you had no DRG to help you.

Also yes, the rotations were infinitely more complex for Ranged Physical for sure, and there was other things to do besides it as well.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Auto-crossbow needs to recharge the oGCDs like its single target counterpart! That's one of the worst design flaws.

Flamethrower could simply 'ignite' Bio Blaster's dot for an even stronger burning dot on top of its damage.

Other than mechanical changes, MCH also need to stray away from the 'selfish' party buff spot. I know it's what it makes the job unique, but I don't see how that is able to exist in a viable way without hurting too BRD and DNC too much.

Imagine if MCH brought Ninja levels of DPS... It would outclass the other aiming jobs.

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Ya know, ever since the heat mechanic got scrapped I always thought they should have added the stacking dot mechanic flamethrower use to have in PvP over into PvE to justify the duration of the attack and reward you in turn with the damage from the stacked dots.

That said, I really enjoy the idea of using bioblaster and "igniting" it with flamethrower. It could even place a little fire animation over the targets akin to what the pyretic debuff does to us when ignited.
...And for real WHY does Auto-crossbow NOT feed us our charges back like the single target one does? Make it make sense.

-Small edit: While I didn't really enjoy the heat system from SB personally, I do miss the ammo system a little. The idea of loading up special rounds to increase the punch of your attacks was always neat to me. I also miss the reload animations if I'm honest. For example, some guns would actually break open on the use of reload and quick reload, such as Revolver of the Wanderer. (I believe that's the weapon's name)