Suggestions to make DRK less miserable to play against in Frontline

I really enjoy PVP as a whole but to this day DRK is just overtuned compared to everything else around it. It works well enough in CC but the same kit is just insane when you add the large-scale player count of Frontline.

1. My first suggestion would be probably the most simple to implement - reduce the entity limit pull. I think everyone can agree that a DRK vacuum in CC should reasonably be able to grab everyone on a 5-person team for the class to have its value. But maybe we keep that count in Frontline or make it just slightly more. 1 player being able to lock down so many is so much more powerful than what any other class in Frontline has access to, especially when you consider its oppressive combination with extremely lethal AOE ultimate like dragoons'

2. My second suggestion is what I believe in my heart of hearts to be the best solution - reducing the aoe. The fact that it grabs a 5 city block-sized radius just never fails to blow my mind. This in conjunction with the fact that the greater portion of the maps has necessary chokepoints smaller than this ability just makes it a no-brainer button press that wields entirely too much power.

3. Take away its dash. If we're going to keep the vacuum as it is then it's really not necessary for DRK to have access to something that can move this Jupiter level vacuum IMMEDIATELY to any enemy player spot.

4. Make the vacuum its ultimate. With it being a regular ability it's just up too often and so it's very easy for a party of DRKs to go in and abuse it to a degree where it's simply not fun in any way to play against.

I make these suggestions because I enjoy PVP in almost every other aspect and I think this is the most glaring spot where it needs some work. I think DRK is a kink which needs ironed out. I see players complain about it more than any other class so I know I'm not alone in the way I feel.

Wouldn't the job do quite literally nothing at all if it was just running around spamming 123 until its limit break was up?

These changes would ruin dark knight and cause no one to play it
It seems like a way to overcorrect something

The main issue from what I've seen is that you are able to stack it so when you are up against multiple dark knights you are going to be pulled repeatedly, there's no resisting it You could use guard, but it will do little in the end

It also doesn't help that purify has no use against draw-in effects like it, or Warrior's chain grab

If it was reduced to 3 people, it wouldn't solve the underlying issue of being pulled in multiple times
The AoE itself doesn't seem that big either, so I believe it's mostly server tick, being hit by it even if on your end you're out of the attack which has happened to me several times
It'd also be pretty disappointing to have as a limit break for a job that is centered around expending HP as a resource for damage

I've still never seen this being an issue in Frontline and I did it every day for 2 months to get the new PvP mount.

The only 'fix' I could think of is to delete Purify and reintroduce its better predecessor: Fetter Ward, albeit with adjustments.

https://i.gyazo.com/fe3f3c084a574496...88d8c77d74.png

Otherwise, if they actually nerf Salted Earth and move the draw-in effect to maybe their LB, I can't wait for them to turn that draw-in LB into something that you cannot escape no matter what for full 3-5s as a compensation lmao.

Personally, I think limiting how much you can get crowd controlled needs to be a factor.

White Mage's imp kills people. Monks stun limit break firebird combo kills people. You don't see forum posts saying nerf nerf nerf because it only affects the one player.

I think capping crowd control would be a better change.

What that number is would be a better discussion point than nerfing Dark Knights.

DRK is not overtuned, it is just the Salted Earth ability was made for CC without second thought about its application in a much more large-scale content like Frontline. So here we are...

1) So far the most logical suggestion. Doesn't touch CC, makes it less impactful in Frontline. Everyone's happy. Except it will cause a chain reaction of people demanding AoE caps on other strong abilities. And you know what? I am all up for that. Post-6.1 FL is all about mindlessly flinging AoE nukes at the groups of enemies. Reducing impact of that gameplay would be a good start.

2) Another healthy idea to reduce radius of Salted Earth for FL only. But it ain't happening, because SE are adamant about PvP skills being 1:1 for all PvP modes. That is damn silly, but it is our reality right now.

3) Not a good idea. Leave the dash alone. The only thing that needs attention is Salted Earth.

4) Also not a good idea. DRK needs his invuln to perform his tank duties (drawing fire, being in the face of the enemy team).

The most miserable experience in Frontline is getting ping-ponged around by multiple DRK and WAR. Your character is locked in the "dragging" animation and can't do anything. With direct stuns and other crowd control, I at least have Purify to get some breathing room. But for some stupid reason, it doesn't work on displacement abilites (knockback, draw-in).

If Purify acted like a good chummy Fetter Ward, getting out of the "ping-ponging" wouldn't be an issue. But it would probably break Crystaline Conflict. So, instead, we could use a page from pre-6.1 FL and apply displacement immunity.

And, for the love of all that is good, make servers more responsible. It feels so AMAZING when you Guard and still take full damage for 1.5 seconds after the bubble appears. Or when you teleport away from potential draw-in only to be yoinked back all 50 feet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CVXIV

These changes would ruin dark knight and cause no one to play it
It seems like a way to overcorrect something

The main issue from what I've seen is that you are able to stack it so when you are up against multiple dark knights you are going to be pulled repeatedly, there's no resisting it You could use guard, but it will do little in the end

It also doesn't help that purify has no use against draw-in effects like it, or Warrior's chain grab

If it was reduced to 3 people, it wouldn't solve the underlying issue of being pulled in multiple times
The AoE itself doesn't seem that big either, so I believe it's mostly server tick, being hit by it even if on your end you're out of the attack which has happened to me several times
It'd also be pretty disappointing to have as a limit break for a job that is centered around expending HP as a resource for damage

---

Perhaps an alternative to OP's ideas could be adding an effect to salted earth that makes enemies, who have been pulled in, immune to it for a short period of time (what would be the best/most fairest time would have to be determined). Like this, salted earth's range and ability to pull in as many people as possible would remain unchanged but you couldn't abuse using multiple salted earths in a row.

In CC this would have no negative effect since there's only one dark knight on the team anyway and in FL it would ensure dark knight is still strong as an individual class while weakening their power as a "pack" to pull in players repeatedly.

But I also like OP's first option of limiting salted earth to 5 players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loggos

Perhaps an alternative to OP's ideas could be adding an effect to salted earth that makes enemies, who have been pulled in, immune to it for a short period of time (what would be the best/most fairest time would have to be determined). Like this, salted earth's range and ability to pull in as many people as possible would remain unchanged but you couldn't abuse using multiple salted earths in a row.

In CC this would have no negative effect since there's only one dark knight on the team anyway and in FL it would ensure dark knight is still strong as an individual class while weakening their power as a "pack" to pull in players repeatedly.

But I also like OP's first option of limiting salted earth to 5 players.

---

Doesn't it already only pull 5 players? It's why I had mentioned it being reduced to 3, but if it's more than that then I apologize. I don't think it being 5 is much of an issue, because it would allow the entire enemy team in Crystaline Conflict to be pulled in, as was stated. Though it isn't like SE couldn't put in the work to adjust actions specifically to work differently in both game modes, given how different they are.

Having it set to 5, and allowing an 'immunity' of sorts to being pulled in after being hit by it would be good I think.

It doesn't need to be a long immunity, just something that would keep you from being repeatedly pulled in if you had been hit by the first salted earth. So probably a few seconds or so. However this would impact other jobs too unless it was specifically for salted earth.

That and an action you can use preemptively or reactively would alleviate a lot of the problem I feel like, because at least then you have other ways to counteract it and other draw-in effects.

As far as I know there is no limit to the number of players salted earth can pull in which is why repeated pulling is so lethal in FL. You can eleminate big groups of enemies in just a few coordinated hits.
Having some kind of immunity would make it so that DRKs can still pull in an unlimited number of players but you couldn't chain salted earth of multiple dark knights at least. I'm not sure if it would completely solve the issue (I'm leaning towards an upper limit of 5 players myself) but I guess it's hard to balance the skill to ensure DRK is still a useful pick in FL without being unreasonably OP, esp. if matched against multiple DRKs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CVXIV

Doesn't it already only pull 5 players? It's why I had mentioned it being reduced to 3, but if it's more than that then I apologize. I don't think it being 5 is much of an issue, because it would allow the entire enemy team in Crystaline Conflict to be pulled in, as was stated. Though it isn't like SE couldn't put in the work to adjust actions specifically to work differently in both game modes, given how different they are.

Having it set to 5, and allowing an 'immunity' of sorts to being pulled in after being hit by it would be good I think.

It doesn't need to be a long immunity, just something that would keep you from being repeatedly pulled in if you had been hit by the first salted earth. So probably a few seconds or so. However this would impact other jobs too unless it was specifically for salted earth.

That and an action you can use preemptively or reactively would alleviate a lot of the problem I feel like, because at least then you have other ways to counteract it and other draw-in effects.

---

Nope, grabs everyone within the Schwarzschild radius.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loggos

As far as I know there is no limit to the number of players salted earth can pull in which is why repeated pulling is so lethal in FL. You can eleminate big groups of enemies in just a few coordinated hits.
Having some kind of immunity would make it so that DRKs can still pull in an unlimited number of players but you couldn't chain salted earth of multiple dark knights at least. I'm not sure if it would completely solve the issue (I'm leaning towards an upper limit of 5 players myself) but I guess it's hard to balance the skill to ensure DRK is still a useful pick in FL without being unreasonably OP, esp. if matched against multiple DRKs.

---

A proper solution to this would be a cooldown on players so that they can't be hit by that skill multiple times. I believe the same for stuns. Once your stunned your have a window of invulnerability to stuns, this would remove the problem of stunlocking players.

Drk isn't the only class that needs a massive nerf, it's just the worst. I would argue that pvp needs a rework, but given how pve is going I don't think I could trust SE to be competent enough to pull that off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Nope, grabs everyone within the Schwarzschild radius.

---

That's my bad then, I was genuinely misinformed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruby_Bloodydusk

I really enjoy PVP as a whole but to this day DRK is just overtuned compared to everything else around it. It works well enough in CC but the same kit is just insane when you add the large-scale player count of Frontline.

1. My first suggestion would be probably the most simple to implement - reduce the entity limit pull. I think everyone can agree that a DRK vacuum in CC should reasonably be able to grab everyone on a 5-person team for the class to have its value. But maybe we keep that count in Frontline or make it just slightly more. 1 player being able to lock down so many is so much more powerful than what any other class in Frontline has access to, especially when you consider its oppressive combination with extremely lethal AOE ultimate like dragoons'

2. My second suggestion is what I believe in my heart of hearts to be the best solution - reducing the aoe. The fact that it grabs a 5 city block-sized radius just never fails to blow my mind. This in conjunction with the fact that the greater portion of the maps has necessary chokepoints smaller than this ability just makes it a no-brainer button press that wields entirely too much power.

3. Take away its dash. If we're going to keep the vacuum as it is then it's really not necessary for DRK to have access to something that can move this Jupiter level vacuum IMMEDIATELY to any enemy player spot.

4. Make the vacuum its ultimate. With it being a regular ability it's just up too often and so it's very easy for a party of DRKs to go in and abuse it to a degree where it's simply not fun in any way to play against.

I make these suggestions because I enjoy PVP in almost every other aspect and I think this is the most glaring spot where it needs some work. I think DRK is a kink which needs ironed out. I see players complain about it more than any other class so I know I'm not alone in the way I feel.

---

I would rather suggest you to make their job miserable to play, you can really bash their way of doing things with some fundementals as it is... instead of going in between the two groups fighting which means you would feed the premade more and have the 3rd enemy smack on you, then you and your team should go around and hit them from the back... to detain and smash pre-mades you need to look at how they move.. they move in and try to escape the front, but if you get them from the back... they would simply just get wasted very easy, first off all the major CDs is off and further more little to no self heals left.

As someone who plays a LOT of Frontline, I agree that DRK needs something done to counter its potential as a force multiplier.

The two suggestions that I think make the most sense are:

1. Capping the number of players who can be pulled at once

2. Very short pull-in/knockback immunity after getting hit

Option 1 would limit the damage done by well-placed Salted Earths (or more precisely, by poorly-positioned/packed enemy teams), while Option 2 would prevent multiple DRKs from extending the burst window and trapping players.

I think only one of the two should be implemented since either one would drastically reduce DRK's potential, and either change should be limited to addressing only the most ridiculous circumstances. So for #1 the pull cap should be like 8, and for #2 the immunity should only last like 2 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CVXIV

The AoE itself doesn't seem that big either, so I believe it's mostly server tick, being hit by it even if on your end you're out of the attack which has happened to me several times

---

The pull-in AOE is much larger than the visible AOE where the DOT/bind happens, it has nothing to do with server tick. Go to Wolves Den as a DRK and position yourself dead center of the four training dummies in front of the duel arena. When you activate Salted Earth all four training dummies will have "Miss" come up -- the thing that "misses" is the DRK pull-in effect since training dummies aren't affected by it. If you imagine a circle whose circumference touches the centers of the four dummies, that circle exactly represents the pull-in AOE.

Wow, I was under the impression the pull is limited to 5 people. Super annoying that it seems to be uncapped. That being said, I've picked up NIN in PVP lately and am having a much easier time countering DRKs! Any high mobility class is helpful but NIN especially seems to work well against DRKs without immediately melting if you get close.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CVXIV

That's my bad then, I was genuinely misinformed.

---

Honestly, the way you assumed it worked makes way more sense than how it actually works.

Only 1 change needs to be implemented to fix DRK being OP in Frontline while having almost no bearing on CC: Purify should make you immune to draw-in effects. The end. That would solve it. That would fix almost all the gripes minus the 45 minute long invincibility.

All these "ideas" are centralized where Salted Earth will still has "drawn in" effect
What happened to Salted Earth property will change?
It is not like they haven't done that before

SE also has tendency to use new expansion skill to replaced old one in every X.1 patch
There are following new actions for DK in Dawntrail: Scarlet Delirium, Impalement, and Disesteem
Also, what if they changed DRG to break the existing synergy?
Did you even cares what Salted Earth do before patch 6.1?
Salted Earth is only an issue when DRG got their new LB
If DRG no longer has access to short-charged wide AOE effect LB, ssn't that also an option?

I don't think they'll remove the draw-in effect. I think it's working as intended. It's not balanced for Frontline, because it was designed for a 5v5 match, but it does what it was designed to do. On the other hand, you cannot tell me that the way Scholar is used (stack a bunch of the dots and run away) is intended.

What they need to do to balance things for Frontline imo is try to discourage stacking multiple of the same job in a party. Effects just shouldn't stack as much as they do. Every crowd control should apply a brief immunity, not a general immunity to all cc but to that specific effect. Buff shouldn't stack. DoTs shouldn't stack. Shields shouldn't stack. Not a single bit of that matters in Crystalline Conflict so none of it was considered when these jobs were designed.

Currently going to wait until the next live letter regarding 7.1. There's quite a few things that should have been done in order for DRK to not become such a pain:

1.) Bring back diminishing returns.
2.) Slash damage on all AOEs the moment it touches a second person.
3.) Have the LBs charge only while you're participating in the fight.

Seeing that I already had a few people saying that the LB charging does not need to be changed at all for frontlines I'll keep away and won't screw up the process with offering change. I will say this though: the moment aoe targets gets capped is the moment majority will start spamming range classes (not like people don't already do this at certain times of the day).

Remove plunge so they can't jump in to pull everyone immediately. Replace plunge with unmend with 2 or 3 charges so they can poke from a distance occasionally. This also adds a different playstyle than the other tanks. Salted earth is mainly a problem because plunge can close the distance must faster than the people defending can get away. If everyone had a dancer or pictomancer dash you wouldn't see nearly as much complaining about Dark Knight as you do currently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

Only 1 change needs to be implemented to fix DRK being OP in Frontline while having almost no bearing on CC: Purify should make you immune to draw-in effects. The end. That would solve it. That would fix almost all the gripes minus the 45 minute long invincibility.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brixy

Remove plunge so they can't jump in to pull everyone immediately. Replace plunge with unmend with 2 or 3 charges so they can poke from a distance occasionally. This also adds a different playstyle than the other tanks. Salted earth is mainly a problem because plunge can close the distance must faster than the people defending can get away. If everyone had a dancer or pictomancer dash you wouldn't see nearly as much complaining about Dark Knight as you do currently.

---

Both of these suggestions would go a long way to improve DRK without completely gutting the class. Even just one or the other would be an improvement, especially changing how Purify works.