Stop creating new finishers each expansion..
People love dancer because it is support job that can buff partner.. adding finisher over finisher will just kill the job fantasy..
Thank you for ruining my favourate support DPS job
DNC 7.0 is in its worst state.
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09-14-2024, 08:28 PMBabyYodaDNC 7.0 is in its worst state.
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09-15-2024, 12:45 AMCarighan
But... they didn't add a finisher?
Or do you mean that every second time you don't have to do the two dance steps for Standard? -
09-15-2024, 12:50 AMSupersnow845I’m assuming they are referring to dance of the dawn and last dance, not finishing move (though I have my own problems with finishing move since it reduces the amount of dancing dancer does)Quote:
Originally Posted by Carighan
With dance of the dawn and last dance DNC’s burst window is now super rigid and while DNC still gets a large portion of its rDPS from dance partner and technical a lot of the changes in DT did definitely feel like they were designed around buffing its pDPS rather than giving it more support options -
09-15-2024, 01:24 AMTunda"Dance of the Dawn" "Finishing Move" "Last Dance"Quote:
Originally Posted by Carighan
all of them are finishers that has been interduce in DT,
Why can't we have non finishers that maybe more buffs more party oriented, party utility.
Finishers do not fit the gameplay of Dancer -
09-15-2024, 04:57 AMRaikaiIn practice, only Last Dance is the "new finisher toy".Quote:
Originally Posted by Tunda
Finishing Move, despite what the name suggests, it's not a finisher among that list, it's just a "glorified" effect from Flourish to shortcut the next SS. DotD feels like a finisher too, but it is just another Saber Dance but stronger. In fact if it didn't exist, its place would still be there as yet another Saber Dance in the priority list during TS.
But I agree that LD, as a finisher, do feel a bit displaced in the kit, and that's already coming from Tilapia in Endwalker working like a finisher itself.
I thought back then that DNC didn't have anywhere to grow inside the Technical window, and I was right. In practice the advent of Last Dance into the burst and the obligation to use the instant Standard Step as FM there pushed other stuff out of, which honestly feels bad. Before the DNC had to deal with a surplus of feathers coining in, which was great reactive play, but now the challenge is praying to RNG gods to not overcap on Esprit midway your global. -
09-15-2024, 05:10 AMConnor
Maybe it’s just because I’m less familiar with Dancer, but does anyone else find matching up Standard Step and Flourish cool downs to be a massive pain in the ass? It’s like no matter what I do one always drifts away from the other lol.
And yeah the overcapping with Tilana makes the opener a pain too, especially compared to Bard where you can fit in the new tools so much more easily since they’re both gcds. And with so many things going on during it, it feels like there’s barely any time to use the Flourish procs before Technical ends.
Lastly totally agree that it’s super sad they didn’t bother to give Dancer (or Bard) a single new support option. I still haven’t seen a single person who was like ‘Yeah I play Poet/Dancer because I love dealing super high damage and hitting super high funny numbers’ lol -
09-15-2024, 05:39 AMRaikaiRNG prayers aside, I think that's the only real challenge about the job - to keep your gcd rolling perfectly so those actions end up matching into the next gcd slot - which is kinda 'meh' in my book if that's the only thing going on for an above average Dancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
One thing in my wishlist was that Closed Position worked exactly like in PVP - freely swapping. Imagine what that would open for a Dancer's optimization, outside of the 2min windows, to keep an eye on what other dpsers can do in their odd minute marks to potentially seize a different partner as Standard Step comes off cooldown. In a group with a Pictomancer and a Ninja, the Dancer would surely be swapping DP between them according to the fight's timeline. -
09-15-2024, 07:15 PMValence
I really, really appreciate the addition of Last Dance and Finishing Move for the very reason that they bring a lot of furnishing to a very resident sleepers filler rotation. Now you can use Last Dance after every Standard Step and I must admit it feels pretty good. You also get a Finishing Move every minute which also brings an additional Last Dance as well, so it really does wonder to make the filler a bit more diverse with things to do beyond zzZZzz.
However, it messes so bad with a burst already cracked to the brim with procs and Sabre dances and things on top of an overflowing gauge with their +50 gauge baked into it that I do feel they just botched the job while at the same time doing something cool with it.
Stndard Step being on a fixed 30s recast has always been absolute cancer since its inception in ShB and I'm still genuinely surprised it's still in the same state. At least in EW drifting it was not a big loss unlike in SHB and DT...Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
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09-15-2024, 07:30 PMRamiee
Yeah it sucks, damage is the focus for this expansion I guess but at least Last Dance is very fun but god I hate Finishing move.
The overcapping is also very annoying and the level 100 ability is very boring, but this is pretty much all jobs in the game rn. I would of much preferred level 100 being something tied to the buffing identity of DNC like a temporary extra dance partner or some stronger buff for your current one, hell I would even be okay with finishing move not having the dance mechanic as stupid as that is if it did something unique for your dance partner but no it was just simplifying an easy job to be even easier. I hate that Bard is the best phys range job right now, its literally the only job in this game I hate to play. -
09-15-2024, 08:06 PMBabyYodaDNC should be the job that is responsible for 2 min and 1 min buff window.. instead of giving all jobs 1 raid buffQuote:
Originally Posted by Ramiee
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09-16-2024, 04:05 AMRamieeI am so/so on this, I don't mind some jobs having burst raid buffs I think AST/NIN/SMN should keep their raid buffs at least so that each role has a buff identity job. I would also like BRD to lose its burst buffs and just have it focus on having consistent group buffs, while DNC has burst group buffs and a consistent DP buffing identity. I hate the 2min meta but I don't think raid buffs are a bad thing theres just way too many, if phys range isn't allowed to do high damage it should be the objectively best buffing role in the game to compensate and no other jobs ESPECIALLY DPS jobs should come anywhere close to how good the buffs phys range give if this is how they want it to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyYoda
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09-16-2024, 04:23 AMTundaI will tell you why I see each job have its own buff is bad for the game:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramiee
1- Alignment.
2- buffs for DPS non supportive jobs will make it less impactful for supportive DPS jobs
3- easier to manage because it is 1 person job
4- if dps focused job have utility it will outperform selfish DPS jobs of how effective they are, specially if it also has healing (balance). -
09-16-2024, 04:41 AMPercibelTheren
I'm torn on DT Dancer. I don't hate it but it feels like a weird change? It's very rigid now, especially the burst window. And that's not mentioning the jank of Tilana overcapping your gauge. Personally, I find it difficult not to drift Standard Step due to Finishing Move putting it on a 30 second CD, but that's probably just me being bad.
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09-16-2024, 04:53 AMRamiee1. Alignment existed prior to the standardised CDsQuote:
Originally Posted by Tunda
2. The ones I listed that should keep raid buffs are supportive DPS, NIN was literally the support DPS of HW and SMN has low damage output so it can be the buffer of magical DPS if it keeps the low damage.
3. We had 8 years of inconsistent Raid buff timers from multiple jobs unless you want everything to be braindead PF based no thanks, its not your job to manage other peoples raid buffs now and it never will be.
4. All DPS role jobs are dps focused only tanks/healers are not dps focused even when NIN was the most support focused DPS in the game it was still mainly prioritised on dealing damage more than it was on aggro management. -
09-16-2024, 05:03 AMConnorAdding to this, but I think a lot of why phys ranged feels so bad to play is because of how purely passive that ‘support’ ends up being. Like, Bards don’t sing anymore, they just hit a button and that’s it. Dancer is going the same way with Standard Step now being a pure dps cool-down thanks to Finishing Step lol. Utility is either ‘press and forget’ crap like Minne / DR role skills, or functionally redundant like Paean (nobody needs Esuna lol) and Improvisation (a channel you literally cannot channel due to dps loss thus making one question why it retains such functionality in the first place). Machinists have lost literally everything supportive except Dismantle lol, and how look that’s going for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramiee
I still find it hard believe people would come to the dps role most strongly associated with support with the notion ‘man I can’t wait to go inflict wanton death and devastation upon my enemies as a Poet/Dancer/Machinist lol. I mean, Machinist maybe lol, but even with that as a selfish dps it’s never going to top the charts because of the ranged taxes.
We don’t get the damage to make up for how support has been spread across every role. We don’t get active ways to support the party outside bland-ass cool downs lol. We don’t even get to feel like a supporter; it’s like they want phys ranged to really know that they’re simply the worst role in the game. The amount and/or value of party support other roles have compared to phys ranged really is just kicking us while we’re down (and they’re kicking us in the no-no zone) -
09-16-2024, 08:48 AMmallleable
The thing is that BRD already has the numerically strongest raid buffs in the game right now. At full power, BRD has 6% dps + 20% dh + 2% crit buffs during burst while everyone else is 3-5% buff with AST likely being the second strongest (6% + 2X 6% single target buffs). And yet, BRD is the least played phys ranged even though it is currently the strongest in its role, but still one of the weaker dps jobs according to The Math™. However, the bulk of its damage comes from Burst Shot spam so the answer is potency.
The problem is that raid buffs, and buffs in general is that they are an inherently passive mechanic so any job in any role whose main focus is their raid buff will end up with a passive gameplay loop. Another inherently fatal flaw with raid buffs is that they are best used on, and used by the strongest jobs/players so you won't be uplifting the needy, but instead making the rich get richer. Which is my biggest gripe with DNC's design. That's not support. Which is why I generally believe that trying to make phys ranged a 'support' role is a flawed approach, and instead they should lean more into them being snipers/marksmen/ranger jobs that simply use ranged weapons to deal physical damage... from range.
I can kind see what they were trying to do with Finishing Move, where it seems like it's there to help mitigate Standard Step drift when everything lights up after using Flourish, but it's just a bit awkward because it removes the dancing mini game. I wonder if just letting Flourish reset the cooldown on Standard Step could achieve the same result. -
09-16-2024, 09:21 AMConnorThat’s kinda impossible though unless they completely change how the approach phys ranged. When Bard was first conceived of they added it to the game because, in their words, ‘nobody would want to play a pure ranger type class’, and I guess by extension they didn’t think a poet/musician class would be popular either. Hence, they smashed the two together and we got what we have (had) now; a support-oriented dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by mallleable
This has been how they do every phys ranged job and likely always will be. You cannot just have ‘deals damage at range’; you have ‘does archery and sings song to support the party’, or and ‘throws sharp objects and dances around to heal and support’, or finally ‘shoots with gun and deals damage with a bunch of machinery’.
To the devs they cannot be simply ‘attacks with bow/gun/chakram’ because then ‘nobody would want to play them’. And I mean, Bard should be a prime example that it really doesn’t matter how high they make our dps if the class still sucks to play, and the passive support is a large part of that (as is other issues i.e song timing)
As I keep pointing out, I still don’t imagine anyone is coming to the literally always support-oriented Poet job or the healing/supporting Dancer job with the idea ‘wow, I’m going to do so much damage by singing and dancing the enemy to death!’ lol. They’re both jobs that have traditionally been associated with party support in every Final Fantasy game except this one, so it seems a bit weird to a complete 180 on their identity and convert them into straight up pure dps. Personally I’d rather see them go back to letting us actually actively support the party, i.e returning Bard’s actual support spells lol (pre-Stormblood songs). I just want to sing in battle YoshiP let me cast my songs again! Why did you [the devs lol] make a spellcasting animation for Bard’s songs then delete it! I trusted you! -
09-16-2024, 10:42 AMmallleableFirst, consider that the status quo might be wrong. Second consider BRD not as an archer or a bard, but as a rock star where music is their weapon, and their bow is their instrument. I am reminded by other media such as the battle of the bands scene from Scott Pilgrim or the koto fight from Kung Fu Hustle or other games such as Hifi Rush or Thumper that music as a weapon is not such an out there concept. The devs should be playing more music, and rhythm games to figure out what to do with BRD as music, and the musicality of archery should be the most important part of BRD's gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
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09-16-2024, 11:27 AMConnorPersonally I don’t see it that way at all in terms of identity. I feel like you’ve maybe misunderstood what’s meant by ‘Final Fantasy Bard’. It’s not the traditional ‘D&D bard’ with a guitar running around singing to people in taverns like a medieval pop star. I’ve put the rest in spoilers since I’m veering off topic quite a bit..Quote:
Originally Posted by mallleable
Bards (the real ones lol) were originally scholars and storytellers who tended to gravitate towards poetry, and that’s what they’re (meant to be) invoking with ffxiv’s Bard. Hence why they use harps and flutes instead of more attention grabbing instruments like an electric guitar (no idea why they threw violin in there for a single skill lol). Shakespeare, for example, is often referred to as a ‘Bard’, but that doesn’t by extension mean he’s also a musician. I mean, look at Jehantel in the Bard quests.
An old man who talks in verse whilst plucking a harp isn’t really giving the ‘rock star’ vibes. I feel like the fact it’s translated into Japanese as ‘Poet’ and not ‘Musician’ or ‘Pop Star’ (idol?) reinforces that they’re going less for a stereotyped image of ‘bards’ and drawing inspiration from the image of them more as storytellers and historians, and not simply ‘musician with bow’. Naturally, add ‘ffxiv aether manipulation’ to that equation and you get ‘storyteller and historian whose recitations manifest real-world effects’ lol. It’s worth considering how the songs are named in ffxiv. A Ballad is often considered ‘a sad song’ by today’s standard, but originally it referred to a narrative with musical accompaniment (in this case the narrative is of the Mage’s amazing feats and somehow that makes everyone hit 1% harder lol). A ‘Paeon’ is a poem written with specific stresses on syllables as opposed to a musical composition, etc. Minuet, funnily enough, is a type of slow graceful dance, which is funny considering Minuet used to be our caster stance lol
Anyway, personally I think having songs go back to being spells is the best way to give the feeling of ‘singing during battle’. I mean, Dancer itself already has a mini-rhythm game with Steps doesn’t it? I’d rather see them get more Steps with more interesting effects than more damage abilities. Maybe a two-step aoe heal? Haste buff for Dance Partner with three steps? Damage reduction and regen for party but it’s a 4 step one? The ‘busyness’ of using procs and fan dance procs during Technical Step made the rotation feel like it came together like a dance, but that’s kind of lost now with all the shiny poop ‘HIT AFTER 120s’ abilities (they’ve been cleaned up to look good but they’re still poop) -
09-16-2024, 06:42 PMRamieeWell it's partly because it's the only job in the game with a raid buff with a fail state, if you die you lose percentage increase on your buff and the raidbuff isn't way stronger than others to make it feel more rewarding. 1% increase over everyone else for perfect play is not rewarding enough to deal with the terrible song timer system.Quote:
Originally Posted by mallleable
It's the least played Phys ranged because it's one of the hardest jobs in the game due to song timers forcing you to stare at your hotbar, having to check for procs constantly and being the only DPS in the game now with dot management, all of this while barely being above tanks in damage. Even if the buffing Bard did was absurdly op, if it's damage remains near tank levels a lot of people wouldn't play it. It's not worth having such a busy job that's got low damage when you could play dancer which is much less busy, punishing and has strong buffs too. -
09-16-2024, 10:32 PMCarighanYes and no. That "issue" is only one insofar that it introduces an element that ought to not be a problem of dancer in the first place because we should be bound by chance. But SQEX hates chance-based elements in jobs, and hence everything is slowly hammered into a static rotation, even Dancers who were so far the last bastion of non-uniform non-interchangeable DPS design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
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09-17-2024, 12:01 AMTunda
I just was thinking of an idea for dancer that maybe is bad but let me explain:
Standard Dance will have maximum of 5 stacks.. each 3 second it will get 1 stacks
after getting 5 stacks.. pressing fan oGCD will allow you to have another dance that will get extra 2% damage buff for 9 second for self and partner.
pressing the buff will reset the stacks to 1