Yoshi-P on changes in next expansion: “I don’t want to take a conservative approach”

In a recent interview, Yoshi-P said:

"So moving forward with the next expansion, I want to incorporate more changes. I don’t want to take a conservative approach, but rather, I want to provide an experience that contemporary gamers can enjoy. To that end, I would like to incorporate various changes. I will also protect things that need to be protected. But we would very much like to try out new things, and we are discussing various possibilities right now in the team, so I’m really excited about that."

Source:
https://www.pcgamer.com/games/final-...in-the-future/

Since the dev team is supposedly “right now” discussing possible changes for the next expansion, let’s give our input on what changes they should make!

For me, it would be to change how predictable and scripted PVE battle content is by introducing more unpredictability/random variations. I miss the sense of exploration and discovery FFXIV used to have in the early days and FFXI had at its peak (yes, I’m that old).

Currently, every dungeon/trial/raid has the same basic structure with the same unvarying attack patterns and phases. (Speaking as someone who doesn’t do Savage level content, though, so maybe things are different at that level).

Once you learn and memorize the script, the content experience is the same every time so eventually you’re just going on autopilot. I guess this makes programming Trust AI easier, but I find it quickly makes content boring. Especially when the game is built on running the same content repeatedly for weeks on end.

I get that FFXIV is often likened to a theme park, but modern theme park ride design incorporates small variations so that the ride experience isn’t the exact same every time. Like Rise of the Resistance at Disney or Bowser’s Challenge at Universal.

So I’d like to see dungeons with even small variations. Such as type and number of trash mobs and when/where they spawn, chest placements etc. Give players variable bonus rewards for clearing optional objectives like downing a boss in a certain amount of time or finding x# of hidden treasures that aren’t always in the same place. Basically take what they learned from Variant Dungeons, and tone it down so it’s applicable to mainstream content rather than just making it side content.

Maybe have trial/raid bosses be more unpredictable by not doing the same attack pattern every time but mixing it up from a set of predefined attacks.

Idk, I just feel like something needs to change to make the game feel a little less like a static game world and more like a living fantasy world.

What changes do you want to see in 8.0?

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Originally Posted by kiotsukete

So I’d like to see dungeons with even small variations. Such as type and number of trash mobs and when/where they spawn, chest placements etc. Give players variable bonus rewards for clearing optional objectives like downing a boss in a certain amount of time or finding x# of hidden treasures that aren’t always in the same place. Basically take what they learned from Variant Dungeons, and tone it down so it’s applicable to mainstream content rather than just making it side content.

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Variant dungeons were definitely an experiment in that, and I think they learned the wrong lessons. Dungeons could/should be branching (even somewhat random) with different mobs, bosses, and mechanics. The issue with Variants is they were side content with boring rewards. If dungeons had some variety (heaven forbid we actually have to CC occasionally), they could keep the current reward scheme for the most part.

Unfortunately, after DT, I'm convinced Yoshi's idea of innovative design is the same streamlined content with a slightly different veneer and slightly tuned difficulty which is completely blown out by the end of the patch its introduced.

8.0 is when I believe they mentioned wanting to tackle job identity so it would be interesting to see what they do.
There are two changes that come to mind atm but I think one is probably not a good fit into an MMO

Dark Knight is a job that has always used its HP for dealing big attacks
So it could be fun to manage HP by using these attacks and having the necessary self sustain to keep yourself alive along with being healed by the healer

It could be fun risk vs reward as you may expend a lot of health to deal damage during a part of the fight you are confident you can survive
I know the bloodgauge is most likely meant to represent this concept, but it isn't how I imagine it
However as a tank it might be somewhat difficult to pull off

One other thing had to do with Gunbreaker, and it's a minor change but I thought it'd be a nice touch if they made it where every cartridge you spent would result in a crit.
Because in final fantasy 8 if you press the trigger at the correct time with Squall your gunblade would go off and you would deal a critical hit

The last time they weren't conservative I lost my favorite job so this fills me with dread more than anything else.

Prior to 7.0, they also said we are starting a brand new, low-stakes story with a different approach and promised the most content any expansion has had yet. They also touted a new approach to battle content instead of fixing jobs.

We ended up with the same 'genocidal doomer trying to destroy the Source for the sake of his people who turns out to be kinda nice and we shake hands at the end" NUMBER 5 IN A ROW!!!! (Emet, Elidibus, Meteion, Golbez, now Sphene). And the change in approach was simply us not being the main character anymore in favour of Wuk. Also, none of the promised content was out at launch and it looks like it will be at least 5 months post-release we get anything. Lastly the battle content, while fun at first, is already overgeared and is boring due to following the same old formulae and predetermined script.

I'm a bit jaded by what we've gotten in DT so far and now I take Yoshi-P's words with a grain of salt, as the goal post for improvements seems to constantly be moving. If he deems jobs/content not up to snuff and wants to change them in 8.0, why not now? And why should we pay for, according to him, a subpar product for the next 2-3 years?

My hope for the future of the game is to return to the previously masterful storytelling of Ishikawa (or someone else of her calibre), but this time let her have full reign in designing a story, unbound by the typical leveling formula of x-number of zones and dungeons/trials at level y.
With a world crafted, I'd fill the zones with new types of open world content, from racing, to little secrets, to town defense, to epic zone bosses (plenty of MMOs and regular RPGs to draw inspiration from).

I'd completely scrap their dungeon and raid design and start fresh. Their boss fights are usually great and just need more random occurrences to keep them evergreen longer. What truly bothers me is the square arenas and the corridors of trash - I don't want to know exactly what to expect when I zone into an instance, every time.

For more casual content, their house decorating system is quite good and leaves lots of room for creativity. Problem is, the way you acquire one is ridiculous - they need instanced housing at the very least.

Lastly, for the love of God, make an infinite glamour dresser. It's 2024. And make it (and mounts) account-wide. Come on.

My problem with expecting anything out of the job reworks is that it’s not so much they have always been overly conservative but more they honestly don’t seem to actually know what to do. Like the changes made from EW->DT you could read as just conservative and not really actually a lack of knowledge (but how empty VPR is isn’t really filling me with hope and both DRG and AST fell flat) but let’s look further back

Changes from ShB->EW and internal EW changes didn’t paint really any jobs in a positive light. AST got nuked again, SMN got lobotomised for a promised “foundation” they did literally nothing with in DT, healers lost more complexity, PLD got a rework that amounted to “we can’t balance non burst jobs” and the “melee or bad” got solidified

Like when was the last time a job got a change that legit made everyone go “wow this is a fantastic change that fits the job and adds a layer of complexity that I genuinely didn’t expect”? I guess maybe EW MNK (which is dead again)

Like their job design has been rotting for years and it doesn’t feel like it’s caused by being conservative so much as being inept

They should give us a mid expansion rework of a job or two to give us a preview of their new direction.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

My problem with expecting anything out of the job reworks is that it’s not so much they have always been overly conservative but more they honestly don’t seem to actually know what to do. Like the changes made from EW->DT you could read as just conservative and not really actually a lack of knowledge (but how empty VPR is isn’t really filling me with hope and both DRG and AST fell flat) but let’s look further back

Changes from ShB->EW and internal EW changes didn’t paint really any jobs in a positive light. AST got nuked again, SMN got lobotomised for a promised “foundation” they did literally nothing with in DT, healers lost more complexity, PLD got a rework that amounted to “we can’t balance non burst jobs” and the “melee or bad” got solidified

Like when was the last time a job got a change that legit made everyone go “wow this is a fantastic change that fits the job and adds a layer of complexity that I genuinely didn’t expect”? I guess maybe EW MNK (which is dead again)

Like their job design has been rotting for years and it doesn’t feel like it’s caused by being conservative so much as being inept

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Also don't expect 'reverts to previous expansion' because wanting to 'go back' is about as conservative as it gets.

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

8.0 is when I believe they mentioned wanting to tackle job identity so it would be interesting to see what they do.
There are two changes that come to mind atm but I think one is probably not a good fit into an MMO

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people have also blown his one comment on job identity as a whole rework. people should really just expect a new skills or something that is closer to inline with the jobs theme. there has no zero mention of a total rework or something big just that they saw players feedback on job identity.

on average SE has only been able to rework 2 jobs per expansion and players are expecting a rework for 21 jobs with 2 new ones coming plus they are currently working on beastmaster.

Giving us eureka/bozja in 8.0 or 8.1 instead of 8.3 would be a good start. Running rouletes every day for 4.5 months isn't exactly the idea of fun.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

people have also blown his one comment on job identity as a whole rework. people should really just expect a new skills or something that is closer to inline with the jobs theme. there has no zero mention of a total rework or something big just that they saw players feedback on job identity.

on average SE has only been able to rework 2 jobs per expansion and players are expecting a rework for 21 jobs with 2 new ones coming plus they are currently working on beastmaster.

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I agree, and I'm not expecting a complete job overhaul for every job in the game. I just like sharing the thoughts I personally think would be cool to see implemented, even if it's never going to happen. Final Fantasy is a series I really enjoy, so when I found out they had an MMO I was really excited

You are right that we'll likely just get a few new skills and it'll be business as usual

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Like when was the last time a job got a change that legit made everyone go “wow this is a fantastic change that fits the job and adds a layer of complexity that I genuinely didn’t expect”? I guess maybe EW MNK (which is dead again)

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Just mentioning that made me salty. EW MNK was the first DPS job I enjoyed playing since I started in 2.5, it figures they'd change it to something I despise.

For the story they need to take a very different approach, bringing all or even the majority of the scions along isn't going to work out, with DT it felt like they were just there for the sake of the trust system, while the story cantered on one character that was poorly written (in my opinion.) It also shared a lot of the same stuff from previous expansions. Introduce a new cast, find a way to bring down the WOL's power level, as the WOL should still be the MC, not someone who goes around and helps the actual main character.

The Job design needs a overhaul, it really needs to move away from what was started in Shadowbringers and got worse with each expansion (SHB was a good step but it took things a bit too far on the simple side, while EW & DT have doubled down when it should have been going the other direction). Healer design needs a rework, Tank design needs a rework, DPS could use some changes, I think phys ranged could gain their more supportive elements, Raid buffs should be reduced or changed from just 2 minutes standard all the time.

I think the issue has been things are too conservative currently, a lot of the changes have been very "safe" some job designs have been good I wanna point out Pictomancer, but I cannot understand changing Viper, making everything easier at the skill celling isn't going to raise the skill floor, we need more optimisation in jobs.

I have multiple hard takes.. let me explain:

1- all normal dungeon for each expansion should have variant dungeon version of it.. not only that but it should give you more stories based on different routs and give you special gear and weapon power.

2- add multiple attack types for mobs and bosses.. it is weird that playing against Ninja boss in ShB dungeon but his attacks is as slow as berserk (final boss)

3- give possibility to people to fail.. it is OK to fail if playing as autopilot mode.. just let people fail and let them understand what possible solution.

4- jobs are braindead easy and lack of identity for 90% of them with no meaning on different type of gear specially melee dps

I'm probably in a unique position here because if they make drastic changes it would probably be pretty hard for me to hate them. Since 2.5 I've been a bard-only main, so I've seen both caster bard and non-caster bard, and all the bits in between (actual support vs just dps support, 80s rotation vs 2min rotation). The thing I'm annoyed with most is how much bard has lost of its "bardness" and has remained as just an archer with bard flavor. I assume their "job fantasy" changes are unlikely to turn bard more archer-focused, so regardless of where they take the job, I'll probably be happy with it if they infuse some extra song flavor into it.

"I don't want to take a conservative approach" ...

And then we get "Look we have a new type of arena: an oval!"

Irony aside, I just believe substantial changes in this conservative approach when I actually see it, simply because they are really conservative even when they want to go out of their box.

They should be very liberal with adding actual gameplay to the MSQ next time.

Good talk. Maybe there will be a walk this time? No? Ok.

PLD main since 2014, but generally I enjoyed each job more during HW & SB.

Since ShB I've found the jobs becoming less fun and now with DT it's even worse.

But at least with ShB we've had a good story and good raids, trials, etc. With DT everything else aside is ... bad.
If the first new quest with the update is going to be "speak to wuk" I just alt f4 and uninstall the game.

For Mao, rights now BLMs is hot mess. AOE been nerfed, mana regen been nerfed, rotation been made rigid and crappy with mediocres Flare Star. Some changes been reversed or adjusteds, like puttings back Ice Paradox and movings Umbral soul down to 35. Is still nots enough though. EW BLMs MUCH more flexibles than DT BLMs. Is maybe one case of where goings back to EW version might be betters. Mao worried that to has wait for 8.0 to gets properly fixed mights be too long a wait. BLMs nots filling any niche that other jobs nots filling betters. People might just start walkings away altogethers from BLMs if no longer needed and not as much funs as EW BLMs. Devs way too conservative by takings thems time. Mao found outs little whiles ago that MCHs been sufferings for even longers. Mao wonderings why is so easy for Devs to wreck a job and so hard to make it betters.

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Originally Posted by kiotsukete

Currently, every dungeon/trial/raid has the same basic structure with the same unvarying attack patterns and phases. (Speaking as someone who doesn’t do Savage level content, though, so maybe things are different at that level).

Once you learn and memorize the script, the content experience is the same every time so eventually you’re just going on autopilot. I guess this makes programming Trust AI easier, but I find it quickly makes content boring. Especially when the game is built on running the same content repeatedly for weeks on end.

I get that FFXIV is often likened to a theme park, but modern theme park ride design incorporates small variations so that the ride experience isn’t the exact same every time. Like Rise of the Resistance at Disney or Bowser’s Challenge at Universal.

So I’d like to see dungeons with even small variations. Such as type and number of trash mobs and when/where they spawn, chest placements etc. Give players variable bonus rewards for clearing optional objectives like downing a boss in a certain amount of time or finding x# of hidden treasures that aren’t always in the same place. Basically take what they learned from Variant Dungeons, and tone it down so it’s applicable to mainstream content rather than just making it side content.

Maybe have trial/raid bosses be more unpredictable by not doing the same attack pattern every time but mixing it up from a set of predefined attacks.

Idk, I just feel like something needs to change to make the game feel a little less like a static game world and more like a living fantasy world.

What changes do you want to see in 8.0?

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If you don't do savage/ultimate, believe me, it's a thousand times more scripted and static in those modes for the very reason that most mechanics are incredibly more rigid by nature of killing you or outright wiping the raid if done the wrong way, and they generally only accept a very small amount of variations if any at all. There is a lot less rng in savage because they want to make sure that those complex/intricate mechanics can be operable on their own without ending in forced failure states due to bad patterns. What normal modes tend to have is random or a certain number of baited or environment rng AoEs, and anything above from ex to ultimates doesn't have it with very few exceptions (first boss of Rokkon with the bullet hell similar to what we have in Vanguard right now, and M2S with attack pheromones). In fact, M2 is the perfect example of this, where the Beats phases in normal mode are filled with random AoE puddles everywhere, and less hearts to fill above your head than in savage, which is absolute chaos, but in contrast M2S Beats, even the first one, are highly scripted and the only (semi) rng elements are found in the towers in the first Beats (that have multiple fixed patterns overlapping with semi rng hearts above your head at the start). It does however retain the absolutely rng attack pheromones. I've seen people describe savage as basically DDR, and I do abuse the word myself because that's exactly what it is at the core, those days more than ever because there is nothing else left from the old days that wasn't feeding into that paradigm (job and party centric battle system mechanics).

Fact of the matter is, savage has always been a lot more scripted than anything casual for those reasons, and it gets even more compounded by the fact that those mechanics allowing a lot of leeway and randomness means that there is no real "hector strat" or anything of the sort for casual modes. People just wing it, and it results in different runs every time where people just "adjust". This is why those days in spite of being a pve raider I find that I still enjoy casual modes a lot more for this reason. But what tends to lessen the rng in casual is that nothing is threatening, so when a run is going smooth, it feels more of the same ultimately.

But you're definitely right in saying that yes, the global formula has grown incredibly stale, be it for the dungeon absolutely rigid structure, the boss script in general, etc. Unfortunately though, and you can probably call me jaded for this, but I do think that's what the devs and a majority of the population wants (else they'd be playing wow).

Yoshida's words are incredibly vague as well, as to what he would consider "new", whether this is going to push even further into that paradigm or veer away from it, especially considering that I've consistently hated everything new they have tried since HW (Deep Dungeon, Diadem, Eureka and Bozja), and as to what he would consider "required to be protected": this could very well be the dungeon formula especially regarding his earlier interviews onto it where he specifically mentioned he wants to keep it that way.

Edit: to add onto it, I do feel the game design of XIV does everything it can to turn every fight into spreadsheet simulator, where every encounter can be modeled through a spreadsheet and you just boot a duty like you'd boot a guitar hero music sheet. And worse, as we get less and less rng and variations within jobs themselves to make room for more complex DDR in encounters, then jobs also become exactly that: you can spreadsheet rotations and for jobs that don't loop every 2min properly on some of their parts (usually tied to gauges) then it essentially turns into a game of memorizing 10min long spreadsheets listing unchanging variations to adjust at minute 4 or 6. And this can change if an encounter has downtime, asking you to memorize another spreadsheet. This is even worse on casters or even melee DPS to a lesser degrees because you're also required to memorize different sheets of when to use mobility tools or swap rotational moving parts around depending on the fight. Add to this that a lot more mechanics those days rely on committing to memory visuals cues shown over the battle arena, and i'd say that yes, the game they want to design is literally being a memory game, and I do feel I'm not the audience for it anymore, and I also do feel that it's not going to change because it has found an audience, it's just not us.

Soooo the interviewer says all the things that Yoshi-P should be saying, about quest design, dungeon design, everything.

And Yoshi-P says: "Yeah, we're gonna shake things up, trust me bro" I'm kinda growing weary of the vague PR talk, would be nice to hear some solid goals and plans.

Job design is key. Outside of the new jobs, current job design and MSQ are bringing down this expansion.

Knowing the devs' record so far, we'll get presented with done deals once everything is done just before 8.0, and to hell if the feedback is mild or outright horrible, there will not be any time for adjustment or changes anyway, therefore fulfilling the same usual 2 year long prophecy cycles.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

For Mao, rights now BLMs is hot mess. AOE been nerfed, mana regen been nerfed, rotation been made rigid and crappy with mediocres Flare Star. Some changes been reversed or adjusteds, like puttings back Ice Paradox and movings Umbral soul down to 35. Is still nots enough though. EW BLMs MUCH more flexibles than DT BLMs. Is maybe one case of where goings back to EW version might be betters. Mao worried that to has wait for 8.0 to gets properly fixed mights be too long a wait. BLMs nots filling any niche that other jobs nots filling betters. People might just start walkings away altogethers from BLMs if no longer needed and not as much funs as EW BLMs. Devs way too conservative by takings thems time. Mao found outs little whiles ago that MCHs been sufferings for even longers. Mao wonderings why is so easy for Devs to wreck a job and so hard to make it betters.

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From a pure MCH perspective (and also because that's the job I know the ins and outs the most, I've even theorycrafted on it in SB/ShB), the way it felt to me is that the devs identified that the job suffered from some issues and people had complaints about the job, and then chose to outright delete and remove bits that nobody had problems with (ammo, procs, raid buffs, big burst profile), and instead keeping the problematic bits (rapid fire, flamethrower), and I feel this is just an example among many.

Not only do they identify the wrong problematic bits, but also favor a systematic approach where they'd rather delete than repair. To add salt to the wound, they also do not add new things after deleting, which has been the whole crux of the matter of how homogenized and bland the whole battle system has become after the Shadowbringers reworks. Everything is about damage, everything has become 2 dimensional and can always be measured within the same metric (damage), leaving little room for anything else. How can we even be surprised that this results in atrociously homogenous job designs that lack identity? How do you design 2-3 full hotbars of unique abilities when the only thing that they can act upon is damage (or healing)? If anything, I'm amazed DPS jobs still have that kind of shallow diversity left to them. In fact, if we even want to consider job identity (like in pvp), the sine qua non preliminary condition that will need to be attained is the reintroduction of different metrics to the whole battle system and going back to varied mechanics from before Stormblood that relied more heavily on the battle system and jobs themselves rather than where you stand and DDR to solve them.

I don't feel this is even possible anymore. What would become of the older content? How can we even rework everything or add such meaningful changes not only within a single expansion, on 21 jobs when at best they did 3 new ones per expac, and also expect them to literally make the game something entirely different? I just feel people (including myself) have way too grand hopes for what those changes are going to be, and in reality we'll just get the usual "reworks", just more wide spread. And possibly going with some kind of half baked system to veer away from having to go past lvl100 (which don't get me wrong, they definitely need to find other models).

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Originally Posted by Raikai

"I don't want to take a conservative approach" ...

And then we get "Look we have a new type of arena: an oval!"

Irony aside, I just believe substantial changes in this conservative approach when I actually see it, simply because they are really conservative even when they want to go out of their box.

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In my opinion, the new content was definitely a step up. Yes I liked the new dungeons and fights in general. And yes, I think the devs were given more freedom in designing the fights, they are more fun and engaging and some of them are even more difficult. That being said, I totally agree with you. As much as I like the changes, all of them still happen just within their very strict formula, which basically counts for everything else in DT too. There is no exciting surprise element, no sense of wonder.

The dungeons are beautiful, the bosses are cool, but you still have wall - wall - boss, repeat 2x for every single one of them. This also goes for when they come up in the Story. I don't think anyone was surprised that we got a dungeon every odd level + a final dungeon at lvl 100, narrated by the main-villain, followed by an encounter with said main-villain which leads in to a final cs and then to the credits. Thats just too predictable, in my opinion at least.

So if anything, then changing the formula would be the most important I think.

Speaking as a healer I want at least a little bit of randomness in boss fight patterns, like the party being unable to tell for certain who will be targetted by certain mechanics. And I want that in MSQ dungeons and alliance raids. Not just savage.
I need the content that is done daily to be more engaging. And what content is that one that gets done daily? Not savage or ultimate.

People need to learn to separate dungeon design from boss design. The dungeons in Dawntrail aren't any better or worse than the boring dungeons we had since 3.1. Their design direction is literally the same. Only the boss fights improved.

Only the boss fights improved because that's only what they care for. And even then, without them making healers half irrelevant like they did, we'd get so many abandons in Dawntrail just because a healer would die repeatedly on the same boss mechanic... I just think they're focusing on the wrong things by doubling down on the base lego bricks of their current design and difficulty rather than breaking the formula yes.

I went through the series of guildhests we still have in the game recently. It's enlightening if you want to see how content was designed back then. Some of them have healers in trash mobs that you need to focus down first else they heal their allies for example.

wait until he "next expansion" is at this point.... I dont know. was told that for 7.0 and got a couple lackluster jobs. yeah, one is OP and the other was neutered before pre-release was over. so... not holding out much hope for a new direction and less conservative.

if he is going to shake things up then things better be shook up. not like re-released gear in different shades, not the same pig with lipstick.

if he wants to put a new coat of paint on the house.. better do some massive renovations as well, otherwise....

as it sits now, I am less inclined to believe him, and more inclined to not be pre ordering 8.0.

I want a new gear system. I grow tired of the 3 gear dump cycles per expansion.

I would rather have gear that I have to choose for a slot as BiS not just based on base STR and substation. But also more interesting augments to class abilities or traits. Gear is too temporary and easy to get. Also why are the ultimate fights just for glamours? Really unattractive to dump time into (my opinion)

Like what FF11 had..

Haste: x% increase to auto attack (reduce auto attack delay)
Occasionally attacks 2-3 times (On top of normal crit and DH)
Occasionally nullifies damage

So i chave to choose a build for speed, raw damage, a little of everything, more magic defense or physical, depending on the fight.

Stuff like that. Battle system needs an overhaul and so do the fights. The scripted dance is meh.

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Originally Posted by Mioooh

In my opinion, the new content was definitely a step up. Yes I liked the new dungeons and fights in general. And yes, I think the devs were given more freedom in designing the fights, they are more fun and engaging and some of them are even more difficult. That being said, I totally agree with you. As much as I like the changes, all of them still happen just within their very strict formula, which basically counts for everything else in DT too. There is no exciting surprise element, no sense of wonder.

The dungeons are beautiful, the bosses are cool, but you still have wall - wall - boss, repeat 2x for every single one of them. This also goes for when they come up in the Story. I don't think anyone was surprised that we got a dungeon every odd level + a final dungeon at lvl 100, narrated by the main-villain, followed by an encounter with said main-villain which leads in to a final cs and then to the credits. Thats just too predictable, in my opinion at least.

So if anything, then changing the formula would be the most important I think.

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Oh yeah, I defnitely don't take away that, for example, fights are really good right now, both normal modes and high end. I might be naive, but based on everything that was advertised pre-release, and even the fact that job design would remain unchanged from EW just for the players to get used to the new encounter design... I honestly thought we'd see things really outside of their comfort zone and even at an experimental level.

What we got is simply their formula executed really well, which is obviously an improvement from Endwalker, but not quite where I expected it to be. People are coping with the fact that more meaningful additions are coming just on patch content because people would be too shaken if it was on launch. I want to see it to believe.

Yeah, it's good to talk about what's gonna change in 2 years, but if they want to still have a healthy player population by then, maybe it's time talk about what they are gonna do to try make the game better in the next few month...

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

Yeah, it's good to talk about what's gonna change in 2 years, but if they want to still have a healthy player population by then, maybe it's time talk about what they are gonna do to try make the game better in the next few month...

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Which is a bit concerning to me, because realistically any 7.0 feedback would be able (if they want or can) in 7.2. An example of this is how long they took to add something a little better to Criterion last time.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

people have also blown his one comment on job identity as a whole rework. people should really just expect a new skills or something that is closer to inline with the jobs theme. there has no zero mention of a total rework or something big just that they saw players feedback on job identity.

on average SE has only been able to rework 2 jobs per expansion and players are expecting a rework for 21 jobs with 2 new ones coming plus they are currently working on beastmaster.

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Current job design and combat design (2 minute meta) was already a hot topic before DawnTrail and before Yoshi-P announced their focus on fight design first before working on job identity.

They're already using up a lot of the player's goodwill by asking them to wait 2.5 years for 8.0 for changes to their jobs (and roles). If they pull another DawnTrail with more skills on large cooldowns and continue with ShB4.0 combat design without reworking or giving any significant changes to the jobs or battle system, they're going to lose a lot of players.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Current job design and combat design (2 minute meta) was already a hot topic before DawnTrail and before Yoshi-P announced their focus on fight design first before working on job identity.

They're already using up a lot of the player's goodwill by asking them to wait 2.5 years for 8.0 for changes to their jobs (and roles). If they pull another DawnTrail with more skills on large cooldowns and continue with ShB4.0 combat design without reworking or giving any significant changes to the jobs or battle system, they're going to lose a lot of players.

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Mao already thinkings about quittings game if next few patches nots helping BLMs. Mao is pretty old and Mao nots able to sit around waitings for years for fixes to be made. Mao has to makes best use of time Mao has left.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Current job design and combat design (2 minute meta) was already a hot topic before DawnTrail and before Yoshi-P announced their focus on fight design first before working on job identity.

They're already using up a lot of the player's goodwill by asking them to wait 2.5 years for 8.0 for changes to their jobs (and roles). If they pull another DawnTrail with more skills on large cooldowns and continue with ShB4.0 combat design without reworking or giving any significant changes to the jobs or battle system, they're going to lose a lot of players.

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so when are they going to lose a lot of players? we have heard this over and over every expansion over everything that someone has said is a big deal to them yet the game has only been on an increase in popularity not a decrease. 11 years and counting and we have never had the lots of players are going to leave happen.

now this isn't to say it won't or can't happen, it definitly will happen one day simply because they will do something that will actually upset the playerbase to show them that they can't do anything they want but so far while it can be controversial, or upset a group of players, we haven't seen the players rise in unity over something yet.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

so when are they going to lose a lot of players?

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I wasn't aware they had already released the job action trailer with all the details for 8.0

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we have heard this over and over every expansion over everything that someone has said is a big deal to them yet the game has only been on an increase in popularity not a decrease. 11 years and counting and we have never had the lots of players are going to leave happen.

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Usually takes multiple expansions of bad decisions for people to finally build up the courage to get over the sunken cost and quit. Happened with WoW, it can happen to FFXIV.

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now this isn't to say it won't or can't happen, it definitly will happen one day simply because they will do something that will actually upset the playerbase to show them that they can't do anything they want but so far while it can be controversial, or upset a group of players, we haven't seen the players rise in unity over something yet.

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Pretty sure lots of healers and ex-healers have been in unity for the last 2-ish expansions on how awful the role is, and having quit the role entirely.

The biggest problems with DT were the terrible writing on the MSQ, wuk and continuing down the path with bad class design... Healers having the worst of it...

For the class design, I think the people in charge of designing the jobs should be forced to play through the entire MSQ, from character creation to finishing 8.0, with all the roles. Preferably using Trusts whenever possible so they can take as much time to appreciate the gameplay as possible.

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Originally Posted by kiotsukete

For me, it would be to change how predictable and scripted PVE battle content is by introducing more unpredictability/random variations. I miss the sense of exploration and discovery FFXIV used to have in the early days and FFXI had at its peak (yes, I’m that old).

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The Puppet's Bunker, in that section where you're running up the hallway dodging lasers and those balls from the side, trying to get through the hallway to the next section. That was some peak gameplay. I want more of that kind of thing in the game.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

For the class design, I think the people in charge of designing the jobs should be forced to play through the entire MSQ, from character creation to finishing 8.0, with all the roles. Preferably using Trusts whenever possible so they can take as much time to appreciate the gameplay as possible.

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What you are asking would take someone several hundreds of hours to complete unless they skipped cutscenes and all that. To make a new character what, 5 times? Then play from ARR all the way through to 8.0? That's an insane request to make. Even working double time (80 hours per week) idek if someone could complete that task while also rebalancing/reworking jobs in time for 8.0 to even be released. And SE would have to pay them for that time. Not fantastic. These are people with families and lives (you'd hope) working, not people who live in the game

It's incredible how you all are blaming the "job design team," when it's not even them making any decisions. Yoship himself is the producer, his order from the top is to make sure to design all jobs so they can clear ultimates and savage no matter the job combination (accounting for role as well). With 20 something jobs the only way you can do that is dumbing down the game to checkers instead of chess.

Stop focusing on "job design" and start targeting how they design savage and ultimates and ask them not to take into account every job (role) combination. But you all secretly wouldn't tolerate if your favorite job would be a detriment in savage or ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

It's incredible how you all are blaming the "job design team," when it's not even them making any decisions. Yoship himself is the producer, his order from the top is to make sure to design all jobs so they can clear ultimates and savage no matter the job combination (accounting for role as well). With 20 something jobs the only way you can do that is dumbing down the game to checkers instead of chess.

Stop focusing on "job design" and start targeting how they design savage and ultimates and ask them not to take into account every job (role) combination. But you all secretly wouldn't tolerate if your favorite job would be a detriment in savage or ultimate.

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Yes because this game is nothing but savage/ultimate.
Hate playing your job through the MSQ? Just make savage better! Yeah that will fix things!