Azem on the Final Days? A Perspective

Hello, before I share a personal concept of mine of what 'Azem' may have done on the 'Final Days' I wish to just preface that what I say is but a concept of what could have occurred. I doubt the team will ever reveal what ever occurred, which may be for the best as the 'Azem' has been referenced as us. I believe the below concept would fit well with the precedents of FFXIV- considering there are soul crystals aka the job crystals.

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A Perspective:

'Player Character' is the reincarnate core soul of who was once 'Azem' within the world of Etheirys. A person by the name of 'Placeholder' they were once- the Azem who was a true diplomat and traveler who journeyed with the purpose of enriching lives of others with whatever value they held, whether that be wealth, knowledge, power, or merely just comfort.

In their final days, they were to listen to the lives of ancients who were fated to be sundered- and joined hands with them to realize a plan for the eras to come. Azem and those who wished to forge a valiant strong soul joined energies- creating the fated reincarnates of the 'hero' who was to be born countless times over from the sundered shards of 'Azem'.

Each new reincarnate reflecting a unique joined soul that was to be born from a shard of 'Azem' until the birth of the core soul was to be born, the original 'Azem'. In the stead of past heroes and reflections- the new core hero was to not only reflect the core soul, but the unique souls he joined with during the final days.

Personally, I think that the 'we are azem' thing is going to turn out to be more literal than just us being a reincarnation.

I think at the end of the story, when the game is done with, we are going to go back to Elpis and directly become the Azem in the ancient world.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Personally, I think that the 'we are azem' thing is going to turn out to be more literal than just us being a reincarnation.

I think at the end of the story, when the game is done with, we are going to go back to Elpis and directly become the Azem in the ancient world.

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This would be such a bad ending.

We could only "become Azem" if we rejoined with all our shards on the other reflections, which would necessitate either a full rejoining or just actively murdering six more people for some ridiculous power fantasy.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

This would be such a bad ending.

We could only "become Azem" if we rejoined with all our shards on the other reflections, which would necessitate either a full rejoining or just actively murdering six more people for some ridiculous power fantasy.

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I mean, we got one person to willingly rejoin with us. What's six more?

Personally, I think that it'd be an interesting plot if we ate another Ardbert and suddenly became more Ancient than not. Fragmented memories of our past life as Azem start to come back to us, and we start to feel the smallest inkling of regret that we didn't let the Paragons cook a little more.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

I mean, we got one person to willingly rejoin with us. What's six more?

Personally, I think that it'd be an interesting plot if we ate another Ardbert and suddenly became more Ancient than not. Fragmented memories of our past life as Azem start to come back to us, and we start to feel the smallest inkling of regret that we didn't let the Paragons cook a little more.

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Ardbert was already dead and we were in an unwinnable situation. He made a noble sacrifice to help us save the world. How would any further rejoinings even go?

1) We walk up to our shards and politely ask them if we can vore their souls. Why would the Warrior of Light want to do that? Why would they say yes?

2) Their reflections are rejoined. This seems like an unlikely writing choice.

3) We're put in six more situations that require an Ardbert-style sacrifice from our remaining shards. This would be bad writing and it would cheapen Ardbert's sacrifice. No thanks.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

3) We're put in six more situations that require an Ardbert-style sacrifice from our remaining shards. This would be bad writing and it would cheapen Ardbert's sacrifice. No thanks.

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This is my biggest objection to when people suggest we should rejoin with all our other reflections. There's no way it would involve killing them to claim their souls, so it would have to be multiple rounds of them being conveniently ready and willing to merge, and it would feel contrived.

Even if you went through all of those 'rote to the point of tedious' writing hoops for this terrible idea, you hit a new problem: Azem doesn't actually look like most of our characters.

I'm surprised at the person who brought this up, because as a miqo'te they should know: only hyur and elezen WoLs actually get told that they look like Azem. Everyone else has pronounced differences, either in size or shape. So for the WoL to become Azem via time paradox, most people then have to have their actual character that they presumably really like erased.

As a miqo'te player I can confirm that miqo'te definetely are stated by Emet, Hyth and others in Elpis as closely resembling Azem too, not surprising given miqo'te are really just humans with cat ears, eyes/fangs and a tail so those 'additions' can be simply ignored.. (I had a headcanon 'EnkiAzem loved cats and specialized in cat-themed creations... so hence why she subconsciously kept reincarnating post Sundering as a miqo'te/hrothgar or similar more than any other race).

I think it's only lalafell, hrothgar, au ra and possibly roegadyn would not be stated as looking like Azem physically.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

As a miqo'te player I can confirm that miqo'te definetely are stated by Emet, Hyth and others in Elpis as closely resembling Azem too, not surprising given miqo'te are really just humans with cat ears, eyes/fangs and a tail so those 'additions' can be simply ignored.. (I had a headcanon 'EnkiAzem loved cats and specialized in cat-themed creations... so hence why she subconsciously kept reincarnating post Sundering as a miqo'te/hrothgar or similar more than any other race).

I think it's only lalafell, hrothgar, au ra and possibly roegadyn would not be stated as looking like Azem physically.

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Ahh, okay, that makes sense. Thanks! (And yes, roegadyn get a similar comment to lalafel.)

It's still a level of erasure; the Ancients are just Ancients, they're none of the races we play and only sort of resemble a few of them. The WoL becoming Azem would, for every single one, require a change of physical appearance, and in a lot of cases it's a really drastic change.

There's another problem, too: Azem was a lot taller than us!

We've seen that people from the other reflections aren't any smaller than us. Further, if people from the Source got bigger with each rejoining, I feel like that would have come up? People would be hitting their heads on their doorframes after the Seventh Umbral Calamity. That implies that no matter how many times we're rejoined, we won't ever be as tall as the Ancients.

not gonna lie I am sure we actually are the last ascian alive too

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

not gonna lie I am sure we actually are the last ascian alive too

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Ascians are largely defined by their allegiance/enthrallment to Zodiark and their dedication to the Rejoining, so that immediately rules out the WoL. If you want to define it as "person with the (remnant of a) soul of an Ancient awakened to their past lives", that theoretically leaves things open to any and every reincarnation (because Ascians consisted of more than just Convocation members). Claudien, for example, could be eligible in that case.

And as far as being the "last alive", we know for a fact Gaia's still alive and well too. Whether or not she identifies as Loghrif any longer, the text suggests she still has -- or could regain -- access to the abilities we associate with the Ascians.

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

And as far as being the "last alive", we know for a fact Gaia's still alive and well too. Whether or not she identifies as Loghrif any longer, the text suggests she still has -- or could regain -- access to the abilities we associate with the Ascians.

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Yeah, there is not a definition of 'Ascian' that could possibly include us and only us as the only one, thanks to Gaia.

Well, unless your angle is that the WoL's just a knowing red-masker and has been pulling the long con for, let's be honest, at least two expansions too long.

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

Ascians are largely defined by their allegiance/enthrallment to Zodiark and their dedication to the Rejoining, so that immediately rules out the WoL. If you want to define it as "person with the (remnant of a) soul of an Ancient awakened to their past lives", that theoretically leaves things open to any and every reincarnation (because Ascians consisted of more than just Convocation members). Claudien, for example, could be eligible in that case.

And as far as being the "last alive", we know for a fact Gaia's still alive and well too. Whether or not she identifies as Loghrif any longer, the text suggests she still has -- or could regain -- access to the abilities we associate with the Ascians.

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I always forgot Gaia not gonna lie haha but technically we are in... omg I forgot the name but you know lahabrea son but just early and I used ascian to refer to the people in itself too

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

Ascians are largely defined by their allegiance/enthrallment to Zodiark and their dedication to the Rejoining, so that immediately rules out the WoL. If you want to define it as "person with the (remnant of a) soul of an Ancient awakened to their past lives", that theoretically leaves things open to any and every reincarnation (because Ascians consisted of more than just Convocation members). Claudien, for example, could be eligible in that case.

And as far as being the "last alive", we know for a fact Gaia's still alive and well too. Whether or not she identifies as Loghrif any longer, the text suggests she still has -- or could regain -- access to the abilities we associate with the Ascians.

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Although it wasn't formally established, it was heavily implied that the original Golbez (who 'died' a long time ago) was a Azem shard too. He's currently sealed in Memoria but I guess it's not completely impossible that he could be written out of that situation.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Although it wasn't formally established, it was heavily implied that the original Golbez (who 'died' a long time ago) was a Azem shard too. He's currently sealed in Memoria but I guess it's not completely impossible that he could be written out of that situation.

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It was not implied, this was collectively decided with absolutely no real evidence because the community went 'yeah it'd be cool'. The actual highest-likelihood candidate for the Azem shard of the Thirteenth is our Reaper Avatar.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

It was not implied, this was collectively decided with absolutely no real evidence because the community went 'yeah it'd be cool'. The actual highest-likelihood candidate for the Azem shard of the Thirteenth is our Reaper Avatar.

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Fair enough - I could've sworn there was something a little more 'official' said on the matter but I stand corrected. Hadn't realised that it was more fanon than fact.

I wouldn't say that there isn't any real evidence. That and the avatar being a shard is given as a guess. Sure, you can say that the only reason why they don't give real Golbez any voiced lines the 1st time you see them with Durante is to hammer home story wise that the Golbez we have been dealing with isn't the real one. Yet if that's the only reason then why not give them a different voice? Why then later have them imposed ontop of the WoL and shoot that scene from a perspective where it comes off as Durante is somehow directly speaking to the WoL and the real Golbez? That he could be talking to both of them even after the real Golbez steps forward. You can also say that the only reason why they didn't want to show us the face of real Golbez is to save themselves from having to render a really big Ardbert head. But with them not showing one it gives more weight to the theory as the only real explanation would be that Durante decapitated Golbez and the head is still inside the helmet.

To me the only reason why they finally have us shake the only other character many pegged for our 13th shard is to put that theory to rest with there no being any what I'm calling a soul recognition glow. As we didn't get any with Zero unlike the two times we touch Ardbert. Now you could go and say that light only showed up due to the light of the Lightwardens acting up but then why linger on the fistbump if it's only meant to be a fistbump. Course with the avatar you could say that the reason there is no soul recognition spark happening is it would get annoying real fast any time we go into avatar mode. Or that the avatar itself is too corrupted for that spark to show. But until they show the WoL in a cinematic as a reaper and thus make reaper a cannon job they picked up I don't think we should give the avatar being the WoL's 13th shard more weight than real Golbez.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Why then later have them imposed ontop of the WoL and shoot that scene from a perspective where it comes off as Durante is somehow directly speaking to the WoL and the real Golbez?

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The simple justification that doesn't require Golbez to have any specific resonance with the WoL is that everything after finding the Memoria crystal is just a recording of Golbez's memories. We experience memory-Durante speaking directly to us because in the actual event he spoke directly to Golbez, and it doesn't necessarily have to be any more complicated than that.

"My friend" - zenos durante, the giant blonde swordsman capable of holding his own with golbez. If it wasn't so close to 6.0 it'd seem less coincidental, but with the patches revolving around zero (zenos's avatar) it's just so suspect. There's enough parallels to draw that saying it's the reaper avatar 100% french french seems a bit hasty.

Afaik the evidence for the reaper avatar it's just that it showed up when called and the out of game ee3 speculation?

edit: presumably if the best match was otherwise indisposed by eg being stuck in a rock or having a pet dragon someone else would show up?

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Afaik the evidence for the reaper avatar it's just that it showed up when called and the out of game ee3 speculation?

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The Encyclopedia Eorzea 3 is full of, as confirmed by the developers, true information (or at least 'true enough at the time'), even when its in-universe sourcing is a bit tenuous. It does not lie, and it does not speculate wrongly, because then it just wouldn't be useful at its main thing.

eh ee3 was written before patch 6.5, likely before 6.4.

I, too, love to dismiss information out of hand that may contradict my head-canon.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

eh ee3 was written before patch 6.5, likely before 6.4.

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By the writers of the game itself. The latest thing mentioned in EE3 are the Hippo Riders, so that reasonably means the 'no new details' deadline was 6.15, but Golbez first walked on-screen in 6.2, do you think they're THAT short-sighted in planning? Do you really think that they'd have changed their mind so radically and on such short notice that they'd have retconned parts of it literally before it went on sale?

For the record I have counted, and there's eight pages of EE1 that are partially out-of-date at this point; there are no pages in 2 or 3 that are. The Encyclopedia Eorzea is stunningly on-point, and do a great job of showing how stable the team keeps their internal lore. Most of those misses in EE1 aren't actually the result of story updates, they're from job revamps that removed or tweaked abilities.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

I mean, we got one person to willingly rejoin with us. What's six more?

Personally, I think that it'd be an interesting plot if we ate another Ardbert and suddenly became more Ancient than not. Fragmented memories of our past life as Azem start to come back to us, and we start to feel the smallest inkling of regret that we didn't let the Paragons cook a little more.

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I really don't want us to rejoin with all the remaining Azem shards because that'd contradict the point of Shadowbringers. We don't need to be "whole" to be worthy. I think the one reason it had us rejoin with Ardbert in the first place was so he could have a second chance at being a hero.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Do you really think that they'd have changed their mind so radically and on such short notice that they'd have retconned parts of it literally before it went on sale?

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Nothing's physically stopping them. After playing through the endwalker and the patches again, there was a noticeable shift around when the void stuff kicked off so if there was going to be anything accidentally overwritten with the changing of the writers, I'd be least surprised it it related to that.

I have also decided your previous answer encountered while trying to find what the external source actually says is better so I'll go with that.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The Avatar being their Reaper's shard is a theory described as 'both unverified and unverifiable'. To me, that reads as the writers saying 'we're never going to answer this, here's the biggest hint for people who are looking for that, but decide on your own favorite reading'.

And I think that works because it just does not matter. We have a lot of potential contenders for the Thirteenth's Azem shard: The Avatar, the CoD of Darkness, Golbez, Zero, Diabolos, Other Golbez, Cagnazzo, that one Hecteye; pretty much every single named voidsent is a possible answer... and any confirmation would change or deepen exactly none of them. What's the value in even answering the question at that point?

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To answer its rhetorical question, the value is the same as in that of filling out the fishing log.