The fact that PvP start to be more enjoyable is alarming

Lately I am enjoying pvp jobs more than pve

I am not a pvp hard core player or anything and I do not play PvP games since cs go 2008

But jobs feels good in pvp

Astro - dark knight - Ninja

I think what it come to is not only job design

It is about encounters

Encounters since shadowbringers feels the same with different bodies

Imagine if astro could slow boss movement or apply slow effect for attacks and casts

Or dark knight can have pvp kit

Or paladin can sheild bash stun boss or even knock back

Idk why but using this type of mechanics feel so rewarding to me

Current fights feel like we are 8 people hitting a wall who can cast red circles.. I don't mind it but the issue is that this is all ffxiv pve fights.

No variety

They need to get the PvP team in for PvE job design and let them cook lol.

I agree that most jobs are more enjoyable and interesting despite having so much less skills than normal. In PvE they’re mostly all just ‘the same job but with a slightly different coat of paint’ lol.

Scholar managing Adloquium/Bio buffs/debuffs with Deployment Tactics is more fun to me than like 90% of what we’ve had in PvE

Hello, gold wolf here currently farming for alpha wolf: i wouldnt say its alarming. there are elements of pvp that will always make it enjoyable. its not just job design, because i think to argue this is not to be aware of how broken some pvp jobs are(rpr,sam,war,whm,viper,picto,monk,smn,gnb) and the rampant stun abuse. there are other reasons, the ever changing nature of the combat, you cant just beat you way through the same dance and mechanics because the people you face will have varying skill levels which WILL effect how they play and when a skill player is against you you can tell. this is imo the real charm of pvp. this however can also be the worst thing about pvp {but then pve has this same issue too ig

what i found alarming for the longest time was how BAD pvp was in this game. its 1 of the most important things for any multiplayer game, highly requested in MH and usually a success in other mmo. there is no excuse for bad pvp

(and no i am not trying to flex my achievements, i am simply stating them in hopes my opinion will weigh in more heavily)

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Hello, gold wolf here currently farming for alpha wolf: i wouldnt say its alarming. there are elements of pvp that will always make it enjoyable. its not just job design, because i think to argue this is not to be aware of how broken some pvp jobs are(rpr,sam,war,whm,viper,picto,monk,smn,gnb) and the rampant stun abuse. there are other reasons, the ever changing nature of the combat, you cant just beat you way through the same dance and mechanics because the people you face will have varying skill levels which WILL effect how they play and when a skill player is against you you can tell. this is imo the real charm of pvp. this however can also be the worst thing about pvp {but then pve has this same issue too ig

what i found alarming for the longest time was how BAD pvp was in this game. its 1 of the most important things for any multiplayer game, highly requested in MH and usually a success in other mmo. there is no excuse for bad pvp

(and no i am not trying to flex my achievements, i am simply stating them in hopes my opinion will weigh in more heavily)

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PCT isn't balance but still in PvE
RPR isn't balance but still in PvE
Astro is the best pure healer in the game
Higher healing and higher dps
They have more utility and equal dps to others in the same role

I mean who draw this idea that we have balance when PCT is better than black mage and RPR is better than other melees

To make jobs balance you have to make it fun first then balance is after thought

That's how game should be developed

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Originally Posted by Connor

They need to get the PvP team in for PvE job design and let them cook lol.

I agree that most jobs are more enjoyable and interesting despite having so much less skills than normal. In PvE they’re mostly all just ‘the same job but with a slightly different coat of paint’ lol.

Scholar managing Adloquium/Bio buffs/debuffs with Deployment Tactics is more fun to me than like 90% of what we’ve had in PvE

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I never thought that PvP has this much complexity and ease of access until yesterday

PvP job design is more complex than PvE by a margin
There is more thoughts in job design process in PvP as well

We don't need more than 15 buttons for each job
All jobs should have oh shit button not only tanks

Encounters can be much more difficult and engaging

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

PCT isn't balance but still in PvE
RPR isn't balance but still in PvE
Astro is the best pure healer in the game
Higher healing and higher dps
They have more utility and equal dps to others in the same role

I mean who draw this idea that we have balance when PCT is better than black mage and RPR is better than other melees

To make jobs balance you have to make it fun first then balance is after thought

That's how game should be developed

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i think you speak from naivety tbh. there is definitely a lot of major unbalancing in pvp. for example if a pld stuns me immediately before or after another stun, and the pld stun is rough btw. then i will die from not being able to play. you could argue (just dont get stunned) but lets be real a follow-up stun from a smaller stun is pretty hard to prevent and a good player will see you dont have purify up. i dont think this is balanced.

if you are in overtime, and the enemy team has a rpr. then there is a good 80% chance that that reaper will lb you off the crystal and win. and it cannot be countered it cannot be purified and it cannot be guarded. and unlike the dancer LB you WILL run away from the crystal. again this isnt balanced. these are some small problems with the game mode that have me thinking you dont play it so much or else youde see these problems, you are unlikley to encounter them in FL either. tho you will see sch damage is completely broken in FL. just the other day we had 3 five million dps schs. again this isnt balanced.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

i think you speak from naivety tbh. there is definitely a lot of major unbalancing in pvp. for example if a pld stuns me immediately before or after another stun, and the pld stun is rough btw. then i will die from not being able to play. you could argue (just dont get stunned) but lets be real a follow-up stun from a smaller stun is pretty hard to prevent and a good player will see you dont have purify up. i dont think this is balanced.

if you are in overtime, and the enemy team has a rpr. then there is a good 80% chance that that reaper will lb you off the crystal and win. and it cannot be countered it cannot be purified and it cannot be guarded. and unlike the dancer LB you WILL run away from the crystal. again this isnt balanced. these are some small problems with the game mode that have me thinking you dont play it so much or else youde see these problems, you are unlikley to encounter them in FL either. tho you will see sch damage is completely broken in FL. just the other day we had 3 five million dps schs. again this isnt balanced.

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You have a good point

But also bozja wasn't balance
But was it fun? Yes

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

You have a good point

But also bozja wasn't balance
But was it fun? Yes

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the people on the other end of broken balancing like blackmages will not have fun. you simply shouldn't advocate for this. besides i remember when bozja released in 5.2 it was complained about constantly because it was so hard and people couldnt get into duals :/

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

the people on the other end of broken balancing like blackmages will not have fun. you simply shouldn't advocate for this. besides i remember when bozja released in 5.2 it was complained about constantly because it was so hard and people couldnt get into duals :/

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People are excited for bozja content in DT
There is a reason for it I guess.. fun aspect

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

People are excited for bozja content in DT
There is a reason for it I guess.. fun aspect

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theyre excited because he said "i will take the best from each" just from me personally. the lack of a 60 man approachable BA style raid in bozja was a major minus for me

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

i think you speak from naivety tbh. there is definitely a lot of major unbalancing in pvp. for example if a pld stuns me immediately before or after another stun, and the pld stun is rough btw. then i will die from not being able to play. you could argue (just dont get stunned) but lets be real a follow-up stun from a smaller stun is pretty hard to prevent and a good player will see you dont have purify up. i dont think this is balanced.

if you are in overtime, and the enemy team has a rpr. then there is a good 80% chance that that reaper will lb you off the crystal and win. and it cannot be countered it cannot be purified and it cannot be guarded. and unlike the dancer LB you WILL run away from the crystal. again this isnt balanced. these are some small problems with the game mode that have me thinking you dont play it so much or else youde see these problems, you are unlikley to encounter them in FL either. tho you will see sch damage is completely broken in FL. just the other day we had 3 five million dps schs. again this isnt balanced.

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You keep bringing up rampant cc / stuns, are you talking within the realm of FLs, or just Crystalline Conflict?

Also, there are ways to play around RPR in overtime, the same way there is ways to play around a scattergun shot there.

This is not alarming tbh. Everything has gotten easy to the point that the trinity system is malfunctioning. Doesn't help that we tripled down on the designs as far as the roles being homogenized is concerned. You feel bored, you want something new, and pvp in your opinion seems to deliver. I'm happy you're getting into it. I can't tell if you're an adrenaline seeker or not. However, I'm glad that you find some sort of joy in pvp.

I mainly afk these days. However, if I ever decide to go back to doing content it'll still be pvp hands down. There's no variety for the pve dungeons. It's still following the same formula since ShB. (I wouldn't be surprised if this was asked for, and I didn't pay attention to that.) It's not worth doing roulettes from them in my opinion.

The only PVP I ever did to any extent in this game was Frontlines, and pretty much just WHM and SCH. I enjoyed Frontlines before EW because I felt like a healer. I haven't liked Frontlines since EW because I feel like a weak DPS with some healing tacked on.

I've gotten to the point I only queue up for FL daily for the easy crystals and job XP. If I wanna PVP in an MMO I go play GW2.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

i think you speak from naivety tbh. there is definitely a lot of major unbalancing in pvp. for example if a pld stuns me immediately before or after another stun, and the pld stun is rough btw. then i will die from not being able to play. you could argue (just dont get stunned) but lets be real a follow-up stun from a smaller stun is pretty hard to prevent and a good player will see you dont have purify up. i dont think this is balanced.

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You have a five-second window with Purify where you're immune to further stuns. If Purify is down, you can use Guard to mitigate further incoming damage. If you're having trouble when Guard drops you were out of position.

The unbalancing comes from skills that are hard to counter. Salted Earth pulls in particular are a nightmare to counter if Guard or Purify isn't up. And there's nothing you can do except pray if a party of SCHs decides to do the SCH biolysis meta and cause 12k DoTs that last for 10 seconds.

Balance is overrated, gamers are too sensitive to a nebulous thing because they think they can quantify it in a meaningful way and they have to min max not having a bad time in a game by making sure the game can never cause them to have any difficulties when playing

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Originally Posted by Alyko

You have a five-second window with Purify where you're immune to further stuns. If Purify is down, you can use Guard to mitigate further incoming damage. If you're having trouble when Guard drops you were out of position.

The unbalancing comes from skills that are hard to counter. Salted Earth pulls in particular are a nightmare to counter if Guard or Purify isn't up. And there's nothing you can do except pray if a party of SCHs decides to do the SCH biolysis meta and cause 12k DoTs that last for 10 seconds.

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to me PvP is balance enough as a sub content in the game,

you have all the tools to avoid any kind of cc or even prevent getting damaged with guard

the thing is let us try to shake not only job design but also in encounters for content similar to bozja,

we can identify if the ideas was good enough or not,

1 year is enough time to decide whether player base will like it or not

ShB bozja was a bit mess but people liked it that's why some people are mad that we didn't get one in EW

If there is more effort for this game mode and keep updating it even after 1 expansion people will play it I can 100% assure you if we got new content in bozja currently, no one will play roulette lol,
DPS will be happy they don't have to wait another 15 min for party

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Originally Posted by gllt

Balance is overrated, gamers are too sensitive to a nebulous thing because they think they can quantify it in a meaningful way and they have to min max not having a bad time in a game by making sure the game can never cause them to have any difficulties when playing

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I mean it is a game after all, what is the problem getting around specific mechanic,

stun then hard hitting attack? get ready with mitigation,
red circle on floor? move away,
people in your party can't figure out how to avoid mechanic? find better party,
pf block the party because you have low IL? create new one but lower IL.

I can give you 20 more examples of current design that is so lame, but the idea people are just used to it so they see every new mechanic as a nail

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Originally Posted by gllt

Balance is overrated, gamers are too sensitive to a nebulous thing because they think they can quantify it in a meaningful way and they have to min max not having a bad time in a game by making sure the game can never cause them to have any difficulties when playing

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This exactly, having difficulties with jobs is the only thing that makes them fun, and is the only thing that gives them any more depth in instance than versus a target dummy. I have the most fun when there's an 'optimal' way to play a specific job, but that way is physically impossible in the encounter. Like in ultimates, where bosses go untargetable multiple times and phases change at different points based on party dps. In fights like these sometimes you can't keep your gcd rolling, you start a phase with more/less available than you expected, or you cant keep your resources pooling, etc. etc. You actually need to think fast about what you'll do next. Percent based phases are definitely one of my favorite parts of ultimates and old content, it adds a bit of uncertainty to the otherwise 100% fully scripted fights and makes every pull feel different.
Though sadly, looking at how much hatred mechanics like Alarm Pheromones 1 got in M2S, fights will probably stick to the fully linear pattern a/pattern b status quo, where your job and the fights mechanics exist for the most part in a void and changing your rotation reactively to the boss almost never happens.