Next tank

Do this has been brought up many times as square seems to be very strict in sticking to their formula as far as content releases go and tome gear etc. This would suggest that 8.0 will have a new tank and phys ranged dps. So after doing research into jobs from previous entries, it almost seems to me that geomancer is the no brainer here as Rune Fencer has really been taken by DRK knight with the grestsword and red mage is our rapier user. Earth magic in fantasy games is usually about defense and physical damage, plus, with the shrinking weapons options, a 2 handed mace user just makes sense at this point. I think they could have some really cool AoEs and mitigators so what do you guys want or think about a potential 5th tank?

Rune Fencer remains a big demand, while Red Mage is a Mage with a sword, Rune Fencer is a swordsman with magic.
Dark Knight is meant to be a magic swordsman who use Dark Magic, Paladin is the reverse with Holy magic but we lack elemental magic or something in between that's neither dark or light.

Also we shouldn't take the weapon pool for granted, PLD use a sword, DRK use a big sword, GNB an explosive sword, SAM use a japanese sword, VPR uses 2 swords, RDM uses a magic sword.
At that point we shouldn't be surprised if we see weapons that massively overlaps each other, such as magical axe or any type of swords. Why not another type of Monk but designed as tank?

Unless they come up with a completely new job similar to Viper, I have a few expectations:
Rune Fencer - a Knight/Duellist, the job in-between PLD/DRK, the tank equivalent of RDM between WHM and BLM,
Judge - Armored tank which Abilities revolves round laws, would probably use a different weapon than double blade. Could be the counter part of GNB and the second "DPS" tank.
Shaman/Geomance - Tank that would use more tribalistic and nature themes, would be a neat change compared to existing tanks and something FF barely explored in the past.
Sentinel - More physical job using Spear / Spear+Shield. We could even see a gunlance type of weapon (Or the reverse, the shield being equiped with a canon). I know they said they would do separate shields anymore but they also said "final races", "PLD can't block magic" and many things they went back on.

A hammer tank is the most likely outcome, for a number of reasons. There's definitely demand for it. It's a classic weapon type, and relatively simple to model/animate. There are no tanks that use blunt weaponry, as of yet. It goes well with heavy armor gearsets and aesthetics. It's also likely to appeal to a lot of WAR players, which would allow them to split up the playerbase.

The question to ask is what sort of aesthetic would a hammer job take? Do you go the Engineer route, like Nero? Do you go the Viking route for another warrior type aesthetic? Do you go full plate with a warhammer, but drawing on something similar to the Ivalician Judge aesthetic?

The only shame is that this job probably won't end up with a FRU weapon, and Gaia's hammer would be an iconic fit.

Ohhh a Judge with a hammer would be really awesome. It's long distance enmity attack could be something similar to judgement in wow (I thinks that's what it's called) when you use a ranged hammer that drops on their head.

I'm kinda liking the idea of remixing Judge, and giving it a hammer -- a hammer is just big gavel after all. A double shield tank could also be interesting.

We don't want new weapon with same kit of other jobs and different animations.

We want much more than that,, different take on tanking that copycat of other tank..

weather it have hammer or lollypop Idc really

In terms of weapons either a big hammer or a big shield, maybe even two, seems most likely at this point (Yoshi-P specifically mentioned these two as runner-up new Job ideas internally in an interview, too). The theming remains a mystery, though

Judge wouldn't be called judges since the GMs are technically classified as such.

They would probably be called Magistrates or something like that.

It would be the safest bet to have a judge like tank with a hammer and inspiration taken from FF12/Tactics Advance.

I would like another magical-like tank. I've seen concepts of Green Mage tanks that uses a hammer and Green Magic drawn from armored beasts to provide defensive magic to itself and their team. Green Magic kinda steps on White Mage's toes with Protect and Shell but considering that those don't exist in 14, they could use that for a Green Magic job.

Plus it would be kinda cool to use a full rainbow mage team.

I want a tank that is either ranged - though I'd prefer if Gunbreakers became that, tbh - or that is based on casting. As in, a less mobile tank that spends most GCDs with a castbar. We need more unique jobs, not more of the same.

Being at range does nothing when enemies come to you, and any workaround is just going to be messy.

Casting on the other hand could work, as long as most casts were shorter (ie. 1.5 seconds) and they have a way to make them instacast for movement. Though they would have to be based on Strength as opposed to using INT for obvious reasons.

For a tank using 2 shields, I just cannot imagine their attacks would be interesting. There is only so much you can do animation wise with a single shield, let alone 2. So I cannot see that happening.

A 2 handed hammer would be most likely, and if you combine that with a caster, you could have a tank that enhanced their hammer swings with magic to do their damage/apply defensives.

A hammer tank, with a lot of casts, should be cool

Dueling shields were basically a type of polearm, I'm sure they could come up with something, especially if there's something else to its kit than its melee capabilities (which I'm sure there would be). Dual shields would basically be a Tank version of MNK, which... would be novel, if nothing else!

Honestly I'm wondering whether they'd really be able to significantly differentiate a 2H hammer Job from WAR...?

Rune Fencer/Mystic Knight wielding a warhammer/greathammer would be pretty cool.

I think a recent interview hinted that "Shogun" might be one of the next ones, so possibly a naginata I guess?

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Casting on the other hand could work, as long as most casts were shorter (ie. 1.5 seconds) and they have a way to make them instacast for movement. Though they would have to be based on Strength as opposed to using INT for obvious reasons.

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Why? I mean sharing gear maybe, but come on, we have 4547656734523 different melee DPS gear sets, there's space for 2 tank sets. Or well, just let them share caster gear? It's not like they couldn't just have a mechanic that derives their defense from some other stat, the same way we'd need spells to scale with STR in your version. :P

Spear and shield.

Obviously with a bigger range than other melee but not that much. (5 or 6 yalms)
No AOE rotation because each strike hit in a smal cone AOE.

Two modes :

• One hand spear and shield : more defense and automatically protect allies close to him
• Two hand spear : harder strikes

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Originally Posted by Jidka

Spear and shield.

Obviously with a bigger range than other melee but not that much. (5 or 6 yalms)
No AOE rotation because each strike hit in a smal cone AOE.

Two modes :

• One hand spear and shield : more defense and automatically protect allies close to him
• Two hand spear : harder strikes

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charge attack please

They can't design nor balance the 4 tanks we already have.
Why would i even want a 5th tank? It would contribute nothing.

I hope they figure out a way to meaningfully differentiate the 4 tanks we already have by 8.0; otherwise we'll just get a new aesthetic that plays 90% the same as the current tanks.

I would really rather them fix drk before even thinking about adding another tank. I doubt they'll add anymore tanks at this point though.
If they do, I want a brawler that punches things, smashes the ground, and just fights for the sake of fighting.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

They can't design nor balance the 4 tanks we already have.
Why would i even want a 5th tank? It would contribute nothing.

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They can't design nor balance the X DPS/healers we already have.
Why would i even want a Xth DPS/healer? It would contribute nothing.

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Originally Posted by revan08566

rather them fix drk

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I would too, but I'll never believe they will ever do it.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

They can't design nor balance the 4 tanks we already have.
Why would i even want a 5th tank? It would contribute nothing.

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why it's not balanced ?

DRK/GNB are better at magical damage and they do higher damage than PLD/WAR which are both physical/magical damage focus

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

DRK/GNB are better at magical damage and they do higher damage than PLD/WAR which are both physical/magical damage focus

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There's a few things wrong with that. DRK/GNBs aren't "better" at magical damage, they're just worse at overall damage resistance and self-reliance. GNB is alright as they still - for some nonsensical reason - have a superior Excogitation on a shorter CD with extra benefits but that's about all that is propping them up. DRKs is just sad now that TNB is no longer special or noteworthy in the face of Heart/Blood/Sheltron.

Then there's the damage output: While it is true that Gunbreakers do marginally more damage than the rest, the number difference is extremely small. And on #2 is Paladins. Overall and for all purposes, tanks do ~same damage, which makes little sense as they're not the same on the tanking side, even if you wanted to use that as the balancing stick - which is problematic in the first place IMO. It'd be okay if one tank trades a bit of resistance for a significant amount of extra damage, as their unique identity. Say if DRKs had to live with TNB instead of a proper short CD, and in return did 15% more damage (so 5%-7% from a DPS perspective), that's okay-ish. Weird niche, but still alright. But the other tanks need some different unique identity then, one not defined by damage.

(edit)
And sure, in theory it could be done that way.

Say of the four tanks:

* One is better at self-healing
* One is better at resisting physical damage
* One is better at resisting magical damage
* One deals more damage

That's a shakey balance in the context of FFXIV's combat design, but sure, workable. But that's also absolutely not how it's done right now, except the self-healing part on Warriors.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Why? I mean sharing gear maybe, but come on, we have 4547656734523 different melee DPS gear sets, there's space for 2 tank sets. Or well, just let them share caster gear? It's not like they couldn't just have a mechanic that derives their defense from some other stat, the same way we'd need spells to scale with STR in your version. :P

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Just to start, there are more jobs with spells that scale on a stat other than INT than ones that do; 4/5 Casters compared to 4 healers (Mind), 2 tanks (Strength) and 1 DPS (Dexterity). So using caster gear just because Intelligence isn't necessary.

As for making several tank sets, I would prefer they didn't. Having 3 melee sets is already a pain so spreading that to tanks as well just for thematic purposes. There is also the fact you would need a complete set of left side and right side just for that one tank. Maiming and Striking share share accessories as do Scouting and Aiming. The reason you couldn't have tanks share with any DPS is the simple reason of substats. Tanks do not get Direct Hit naturally and DPS do not get any benefit from Tenacity, so there is conflict there.

Really, too many issues when you can take the easy route and just use current tank gear.

Green mage would be cool but considering how badly designed current tanks are CBU3 should work on that before ever considering a new tank and healer too.

Gravity.. magic tank

Similar esthetic to astrologian

Melee magic tank

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

Gravity.. magic tank

Similar esthetic to astrologian

Melee magic tank

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Oh that sounds pretty cool. Lots of displacement/pull/movement powers, coupled with casted damage spells and casted shields on self?

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

why it's not balanced ?

DRK/GNB are better at magical damage and they do higher damage than PLD/WAR which are both physical/magical damage focus

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The tanks all do the same dps, and Drk/Gnb are not ''better'' at mitigating magic damage. Paladin has passage, which alone is better than DM/HoL in most of it's usecases. And Shake it off is the best party mit of all the tanks.
Dark knight taking 10% less damage from a magical tank buster (thanks to diminishing returns) is effectively meaningless when it's the only tank who can't heal itself back up.
Yet there is a massive discrepancy in their sustain and ability to mitigate. Drk is the weakest tank defensively against physical damage and has almost no sustain at all.
Dark knight still has it's job defining weaknesses after they took away all of it's job defining traits and gave it to the other tanks repeatedly.
Don't even get me started on synched content, such as ultimates. Where Dark knight is just arbitrarily the worst across the board at everything a tank does by a wide margin.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

There's a few things wrong with that. DRK/GNBs aren't "better" at magical damage, they're just worse at overall damage resistance and self-reliance.

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They are specialized in magical damage, either tb or raid wide (p6 top or m4s for example) when pld/war are more versatile and can mitigate either physical (m3s) or magical fights (m4s)

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Originally Posted by Carighan

GNB is alright as they still - for some nonsensical reason - have a superior Excogitation on a shorter CD with extra benefits but that's about all that is propping them up. DRKs is just sad now that TNB is no longer special or noteworthy in the face of Heart/Blood/Sheltron.

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While TBN is maybe not as good as HoC or Shiltron, it is enough by far to clear every savages week1 or ultimates on patch, I dont think its that much of a downside

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Then there's the damage output: While it is true that Gunbreakers do marginally more damage than the rest, the number difference is extremely small. And on #2 is Paladins. Overall and for all purposes, tanks do ~same damage, which makes little sense as they're not the same on the tanking side, even if you wanted to use that as the balancing stick - which is problematic in the first place IMO. It'd be okay if one tank trades a bit of resistance for a significant amount of extra damage, as their unique identity. Say if DRKs had to live with TNB instead of a proper short CD, and in return did 15% more damage (so 5%-7% from a DPS perspective), that's okay-ish. Weird niche, but still alright. But the other tanks need some different unique identity then, one not defined by damage.

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drk > gnb > pld > war

And yeah I agree that there is not much difference in dps, drk and gnb should be around 400 to 600 dps above pld/war

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

The tanks all do the same dps, and Drk/Gnb are not ''better'' at mitigating magic damage.

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I wont read the rest

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

I wont read the rest

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Why? You think having room to do 200 more dps in an optimised setting assuming perfect play and good RNG matters when the group dps is 160k?
You're splitting hairs mate. The only instance where DM and HoL are ''better'' against magic is if it's a repeated heavy hitter (Styx) or if it leaves a nasty DoT and PLD can't flash it. Also let's not forget about the Regen buff to shake it off specifically to tackle that discrepancy. But that still leaves them worse against single hit raidwides which are the majority of raidwides anyways, and potentially worthless in the case of physical raidwides. Which we've seen a lot of in this tier.

As someone waiting for a Hammer, it'll be a Tank or a Striking DPS. personally i think tank might be a little too similar to warrior but whatever job gets added that wields a hammer will be my new main, be it tank or dps. I just wish it were a dps cause dps are allowed to have more interesting kits and a Hammer melee with longer cast times in exchange for high potency strikes sounds like a ton of fun. sure i give up 2 gcds but if it hits for 3 gcds worth of damage. I'll make that trade every time.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

As someone waiting for a Hammer, it'll be a Tank or a Striking DPS. personally i think tank might be a little too similar to warrior but whatever job gets added that wields a hammer will be my new main, be it tank or dps. I just wish it were a dps cause dps are allowed to have more interesting kits and a Hammer melee with longer cast times in exchange for high potency strikes sounds like a ton of fun. sure i give up 2 gcds but if it hits for 3 gcds worth of damage. I'll make that trade every time.

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I so wish they had dared to do something - anything, really - with the 2H mode of Vipers. When they said the GCD will be slower I was all excited, but due to the 20% haste buff the difference isn't even really noticable. If it had been, I dunno, a 5 seconds GCD in return for super strong attacks, then we'd be talking. Seeing something like that on a 2H hammer swinging tank would be fantastic. Or even better, Mace+Shield, 3,5s GCD, all attacks have some secondary effects they need to be used for but none are inherently a combo.

As in, you got various resource generators, and spenders that give everything from healing over damage reduction to group buffs, and it's entirely your choice how to generate/spend, there is 0 limitations to your kit. Pick an ability every 3,5s, you got like 10 of them, that's it. All GCD, too, no oGCD skills except the default ones. Or if more button activity is desired, make it just a single GCD hit, and have everything else be a "rider" you have to press before the single "hit it with the mace" skill. Like inverted Red Mage, basically.

We can't be creative with the current design sorry but that's the truth

Even game designers for biggest Japanese company fell short with current encounter design

Most games tank is a CC job who stun fear or root enemies

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

Most games tank is a CC job who stun fear or root enemies

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We played vastly different games...
It's true XIV is a number game and should be changed.

But MMO tanks aren't necesseraly jobs that Crowd Control opponent, that's something true for MOBAs where tanks can't have the same design in a pvp setting. I mean, taunt is literally a form of crowd control anyway.
The general definition of tanks in game, mostly RPGs, is to be the frontline able to receive and soak the most damage.

Also, could you imagine if tanks had more CCs? It would be useless against bosses as they're immune and we'll never see a tool to skip a mechanic.
And in dungeons? Healers would cry even more.

I'm hoping for Green Mage with a mace or hammer.

I'm sorely missing a nature aesthetic since WHM does mostly holy spells now. I'm wanting more stuff based on stuff like briars, thorns, vines, leaves, flowers, pollen/poisons and other fun plant based stuff. We could have cooldowns like barkskin, ice wall, or other fun stuff.

I dunno, can be called anything that fits the current "tank role formula." Give them:
A short-duration strong mit (insert skill name here)
Rampart
A 40% mit with some funny additional effect (insert skill name here)
A party-wide mit (insert skill name here)
And of course your 123 combos plus a 60-sec burst combo.
Done.
As for the job's name and what it looks like, why bother?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

We played vastly different games...
It's true XIV is a number game and should be changed.

But MMO tanks aren't necesseraly jobs that Crowd Control opponent, that's something true for MOBAs where tanks can't have the same design in a pvp setting. I mean, taunt is literally a form of crowd control anyway.
The general definition of tanks in game, mostly RPGs, is to be the frontline able to receive and soak the most damage.

Also, could you imagine if tanks had more CCs? It would be useless against bosses as they're immune and we'll never see a tool to skip a mechanic.
And in dungeons? Healers would cry even more.

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Many RPGs have this formula.. tanks do cc and also supports do.. it is not about moba only.

Some RPGs give tanks a CC that cost MP others use cc instead of damage.. tanks are not suppose to deal damage they suppose to be tanks first who have engaging dps rotation rather than dps jobs having mitigations

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Many RPGs have this formula.. tanks do cc and also supports do.. it is not about moba only.

Some RPGs give tanks a CC that cost MP others use cc instead of damage.. tanks are not suppose to deal damage they suppose to be tanks first who have engaging dps rotation rather than dps jobs having mitigations

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That's true, when WoW heralded the swap from 6 MMORPG roles to just 3 (the thereafter-called "trinity" of roles), CC mostly went to tanks, buffing mostly went to healers, and debuffing got spread around the jobs. There are exceptions of course, but by and large there was a significant focus in moving defensive utility components to the already supportive jobs.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Also, could you imagine if tanks had more CCs? It would be useless against bosses as they're immune and we'll never see a tool to skip a mechanic.
And in dungeons? Healers would cry even more.

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Wouldn't have to be. Seen how GW2 does it, even on 100+ people open world mobs? The mob gets a CC-"bar", while slowly casting something. Each CC move is ignored, but applies a certain amount of "damage" to the bar (stuns for example have a higher base damage than snares, also duration plays into the effective number). Once broken, the mob is CCed, usually in a pre-defined way but sometimes it's just the first "real" CC like Stun or Mezz or Fear going through after the bar is down.

And then there's often an immunity when the bar comes back up until it can even be damaged again.

And that's just one example of how it can be done on bosses. It's all just a matter of the class designers talking to the encounter designers and vice versa. "Easily" done (as easy as things can be in game dev) then.

As for the dungeon thing, other MMOs make their mobs and bosses deal non-trivial amounts of damage at non-trivializing intervals. That already solves the healer problem entirely.