Tanks need to be made more like tanks than DPS with high Defense.

This Dawntrail story just reached the most ignominious end for me in a way that was more or less just long coming. The final battle, the whole culmination of the efforts of the story, was spent in a 20 minute long period where I just had to walk away from the game and wait until it was over.

We were fighting the final Trial, and I was healer. first time in, my cohealer and I died to the surprise circle attack during the grid, and all the was left was a warrior and a dragoon. They then proceeded to take the entirety of the fight themselves for the next 15 minutes. I could do nothing. no one else could do anything. I just ended up getting bored and leaving as eventually the warrior just made it through the transition, the dragoon died, and the warrior just solo'd the entirety of the "epic finale" themself. it was just such a waste of time and completely deflated any sense of accomplishment one could have had. I didn't even get to finish the final battle by the skin of our teeth, even being dead wouldn't be so bad if it was close. But just having to give up and leave because the overpowered tanks can solo the entirety of normal content? give me a break.

Had a similar experience and it's the best way to make you hate the last climaxing fight of a story.

Make tanks die and wipe the floor like everyone else already. The only thing that currently kills them (and not always) is when bosses have enough party stacks to first go through their invuln, and then finally oneshot them.

This is easily the worst example of friction in the modern casual game and I have no idea why square views this as acceptable while also completely murdering healer design for the purpose of ensuring there isn’t friction caused by the party being held hostage by a bad healer

I’m at the point where if I’m on a DPS and die because the healer did and the tank doesn’t try to keep me alive then solos the boss I will report them, tanks do not have the right to waste everyone’s time because they have 80% inherent damage down from playing the blue role

There is no problem of tanks having dps rotation

The problem is tanks have nothing to manage really
They play and feel like dps and that is the issue

I think the real issue here is the current level of sustain. I main DRK and sustain is almost non existent compared to the other 3 so square needs to decide if this is what they want tanks to be able to do going forward or make them more like DRK who needs a healer.

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Originally Posted by RinaB

I think the real issue here is the current level of sustain. I main DRK and sustain is almost non existent compared to the other 3 so square needs to decide if this is what they want tanks to be able to do going forward or make them more like DRK who needs a healer.

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Agreed. I also think DRK is where tank sustain should be. If they mit properly, they are pretty damn tanky. They can survive a good while without a healer but not indefinitely and they also can't keep everyone else alive, like WAR can.

I hate when people does it I hate waiting 15 minutes for a fight that I should be in and most tank will always try to solo I will only do if 10% below of above I will jump off or let myself get killed I know how boring it is otherwise

Tanks already deal less damage than DPS, while also having a plethora of options for rendering themselves nigh unkillable, from passive damage reduction to a half-dozen defense cooldowns to self-healing. Lowering their damage further won't change the fact that they just don't die in content that isn't designed to kill them.

You're not going to get tanks who politely die so the fight can reset by complaining about Tank DPS here. You're just going to get Tanks who take 30 minutes to solo the boss instead of 15.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This is easily the worst example of friction in the modern casual game and I have no idea why square views this as acceptable while also completely murdering healer design for the purpose of ensuring there isn’t friction caused by the party being held hostage by a bad healer

I’m at the point where if I’m on a DPS and die because the healer did and the tank doesn’t try to keep me alive then solos the boss I will report them, tanks do not have the right to waste everyone’s time because they have 80% inherent damage down from playing the blue role

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Can you imagine tanks being hit my auto attack greater than 5% of their hp without being interrupted every 30s by a 10s cast which will be entirely mitigated by their 25s cd defensive skill...

How would the casual be able to get through the story content if anyone takes any form of damage ?

For a short period of time in ARR, WAR's Inner Beast (Fell Cleave without the trait) gave a 30 or 40% mitigation buff for 6s or so. That "forced" WAR to have to think about when they would spend their gauge. Of course, back then, gauge capped at 50 so you'd just be sitting on it thinking about your lost DPS while waiting for a tankbuster.

But the point is... there was some "thought" to using it. There is zero thought to using much of the WAR kit. Hold Rampart/Vengeance for a tank buster. Every other damage ability WAR has... just use it when it comes up.

But now that I think about it, much of every job out there is about using their damage abilities on CD to keep the timer running.

but tHeN tHe CaSuaLs cAnT dO iT

Clearly this is working as intended because anyone should be able to have 100% Netflix uptime on every job, especially tanks and healers. Casuals can’t handle anything more than watching Netflix while pressing random buttons and winning every encounter. (Obviously sarcasm)


Somehow the entire game has to be so aggressively septic for ‘casuals’ that tanks are practically invincible healers, healers just dps, dps press the giant glowing buttons with arrows pointing at them and a sound effect that says ‘PRESS MEEEEE’. Like, somehow casuals should be able to do every piece of content in the game and never feel the slightest bit of stress of pressure in any way whatsoever.

I’m sick of every single criticism of the game boiling down to ‘but what about the casual lobotomites who can’t press buttons?!?!?!

Tank aren’t tanks? Can’t change it because casuals. Healers don’t heal/damage/anything? Too complex, casuals. Dps support going from active to entirely passive? You guessed it, can’t fix because casuals lol

Yeah but this tricky to do, as I can also see why they want everyone to have a certain damage output for soloing, plus they want a certain "job erasure" during raid mechanics so it's more about the ballet around mechanics than which specific job and role you play during the mechanic.

That being said, for tank gameplay in particular, I would prefer:

* ~50% of your actions don't deal damage.
* These actions instead deal high emnity.
* Damage of the damage dealing actions buffed significantly to compensate.
* Emnity of tank stance reduced/removed.

So that as a tank, your gameplay comes down to balancing your damage output vs your emnity output. You can focus on either exclusively, but that is no good. The goal is somewhere in the middle. And ideally, the two mechanisms have a certain interaction. Say as a Paladin, your mana-spending moves are your emnity tools, but your mana-regenerating moves like the Atonement chain are damage-only, not emnity. As a Warrior, maybe your tank-stance still gives +emnity, but only on healing you do, and of course you do healing via various abilites so that's how you bind enemies. Can use this for job differentiation.

This'd also have the upside that it can make lower levels easier to organize, originally only giving 1 single target and 1 AoE emnity tool (if even that, Warrior could use the same one), and then first give a simple damage combo.

This sounds basically like you're asking to get pre ShB tanking back. Not that I disagree mind you (except on the 50% no damage actions unless you really want to bring Flash back and give it to everyone).

It's not even pre ShB at that; by StB parties were mostly able to manage their own Enmity by the ubiquitous access to actions like Diversion and SHIRK (the greatest offender to trivializing enmity generation in favor of dealing damage), and often NIN's action, whatever it was called.

Enmity has gone the opposite extreme way as mitigation/healing, something the entire group handles with a myriad of buttons, some overpowered and some useless. Enmity is handled by two players, three buttons apiece.

Making it something the tank alone has to manage hasn't really made it better or made the overall general gameplay of combat feel like it works better, though., It's become so easily managed that the effect is your 24 man main tank dies (somehow), and the boss manages to tankbuster the next few DPS before an offtank realizes anyone is down and remembers to put on their stance. They probably didn't even realize, they just might have saw the boss move somewhere in the arena that they found annoying and tried to center it, though bosses usually handle that by themselves now, too.

I do think that making tanks have to balance dealing damage and supporting would go a long way to making them feel different than DPS, though. Same for healers. All the better if they can make that support actually necessary (or at least optimal) and then differentiate the way in which each job within the role doles out the support, instead of trying to define each job by a slightly different DPS rotation and slightly different party wide or personal short cooldown oGCD single target degenerative action.

Give all bosses Doom ability when there is only 1 player left alive. Tank has 1 min to kill boss or wipe.

It’s not just the self healing in normal mode, it’s that there’s barely anything to cause something more serious than a papercut to a high level tank. A tank buster? What’s that? Even without mitigation it’s not a threat unless it’s a shared one. Same with vuln stacks: no one should be able to not care about having 5-10+ vuln stacks. A tank should also not be able to take an 8m party stack alone when synched. Unless you can jump off the ledge when your teammates die, it can take a while of not doing anything except stand in everything you’re not supposed to before you die.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Give all bosses Doom ability when there is only 1 player left alive. Tank has 1 min to kill boss or wipe.

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If something like this is to be implemented, it should only apply to the latest patch/synched content.

It's important for tanks to be able to carry, otherwise we'd have to depend on people like OP to turn on their monitor. That's too much to ask.

https://y.yarn.co/ac0aca60-fc75-46ad...902b3_text.gif

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Originally Posted by dspguy

For a short period of time in ARR, WAR's Inner Beast (Fell Cleave without the trait) gave a 30 or 40% mitigation buff for 6s or so. That "forced" WAR to have to think about when they would spend their gauge. Of course, back then, gauge capped at 50 so you'd just be sitting on it thinking about your lost DPS while waiting for a tankbuster.

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Yep, though 20%. Inner Beast gave just 20% DR for 6s. Though, since at that time Warrior had zero passive mitigation beyond its armor, that was already enough to care when one used it. (Especially since using it also purged your stacks of Wrath, which gave crit chance and healing received.)

Tank design should be much closer to healer design. 1 single target button, 1 aoe button, a 30 second damage buff they maintain, and maybe a range attack. Then give them 20 mitigation tools when they really only need 5.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Tank design should be much closer to healer design. 1 single target button, 1 aoe button, a 30 second damage buff they maintain, and maybe a range attack. Then give them 20 mitigation tools when they really only need 5.

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but tanks can't handle it

imagine warrior having more than 2 oGCD that will broke the BaLaNcE

I'm kinda okay with tanks being kinda DPS-y, but them being basically single player jobs in a multiplayer game is kinda of getting a little obnoxious.

I think them mostly being a dps is much more inline with the game's design. I just wish they didn't have basically the same dps kit

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

I think them mostly being a dps is much more inline with the game's design. I just wish they didn't have basically the same dps kit

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Yeah but I feel as the game ages, this design is more and more showing flaws game-wide.

And if they want all jobs to be just "DPS+xyz", then steal design from GW2, someone solved all those issues already! No need to do a bad re-implementation, if they want that they ought to be serious about it and actually do it!

See my post on why holding parties hostage should be easier to report and more punishable. For real, the devs can just make it so 5 minutes elapsing since all ressurection users have died forces an enrage and we'd be good as well.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

See my post on why holding parties hostage should be easier to report and more punishable. For real, the devs can just make it so 5 minutes elapsing since all ressurection users have died forces an enrage and we'd be good as well.

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This is quite explicitly not reportable behavior, in fact the opposite (intentionally dying) can be, based on context. Totally not the issue at hand here, either.