Improve reactiveness of tank gameplay

I was thinking of how we can improve tank reactiveness while playing other games as Mr yoshi ask us to do

There is a cool concept for attacks and mitigation in Monster Hunter stories 2

Which is type of attacks: strength / speed / technique

I find it simple and fun to play with so I though maybe this kind of system will work for tanks

It is cool if we have tank mitigations with a reason behind them

You can use strength mitigation for monsters that have slow but hard hitting attack or speed for high speed mobs or technique for more casters like mobs

That could reward tank with finisher that makes sense not just after using your 120 sec skill cooldown

Instead of having 3 or 4 mitigations that could do same thing but some have less effectiveness

This could be also for tank busters if you think about it.

What do you think?

Players usually ignore reactiveness and don't use it.

For example, using raid-wide mit or Reprisal is reactive. Using Nascent Flash, TBN, cover or clemency on other players is reactive. Interrupting attacks or stunning them is reactive. Many players don't do these things.

We used to have specific mitigations like you are suggesting - one for physical attacks, one for magical attacks, but players started saying "well they are useless some of the time, please make them work on everything". So they did and now a lot of the mitigations do the same thing but with a different %. What remains (Dark Mind which only works against magic), people are still asking for it to just be a generic mitigation like all the others even within the last few days.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Players usually ignore reactiveness and don't use it.

For example, using raid-wide mit or Reprisal is reactive. Using Nascent Flash, TBN, cover or clemency on other players is reactive. Interrupting attacks or stunning them is reactive. Many players don't do these things.

We used to have specific mitigations like you are suggesting - one for physical attacks, one for magical attacks, but players started saying "well they are useless some of the time, please make them work on everything". So they did and now a lot of the mitigations do the same thing but with a different %. What remains (Dark Mind which only works against magic), people are still asking for it to just be a generic mitigation like all the others even within the last few days.

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The game is really not giving people enough learning for entry level players..

Hall of novice is so basic

I think if we have good tutorial quests for different mechanic that would improve gameplay for most players

Example : if you see red circle use your red mitigation
If blue circle use blue mitigation
And so on

The Game has a lot of design problems and the more one looks and talks about them the more one finds them.
If the game never ask for mechanics then one cant learn those mechanics. For example Stuns and interuption...they dont work against enemies that would need it the most. So of course people dont use it.
Esuna could also be a example, its a condition clear spell but most conditions nowadays are not affected by the spell so far that people will be more surprised than anything when they can esuna something.

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Originally Posted by Ayalu

The Game has a lot of design problems and the more one looks and talks about them the more one finds them.
If the game never ask for mechanics then one cant learn those mechanics. For example Stuns and interuption...they dont work against enemies that would need it the most. So of course people dont use it.
Esuna could also be a example, its a condition clear spell but most conditions nowadays are not affected by the spell so far that people will be more surprised than anything when they can esuna something.

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if we say let's not change any thing because some people may fail.. we cannot change anything really.. I think most people are not ready for 8.0 not being interesting.

Game should introduce mechanics and its tutorial with it.. we will reach to the point where we stick with the current jobs state forever

I really like how Picto's shield reduces the cooldown if you use it wisely. I wish the tanks had some things like that. Imagine if the 40% mit was reduced to a 90s cooldown if the damage coming in was sufficient to justify its use.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Game should introduce mechanics and its tutorial with it.. we will reach to the point where we stick with the current jobs state forever

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How long have you been playing? We've more or less been there since Shadowbringers.

Removing mechanics and replacing them with nothing is FFXIV's bread and butter.

In general i agree thats why i hope that 8.0 will big a really big shake up.
Or in more humorous tone, i hope yoshida and his team sunders the current system in a way not seen since the ancient world ;p

This game can't have "reactiveness." Not in the current design.
The current design revolves around scripting. Everything is scripted and time-based. You're supposed to press X skill at Y time point, and that's it. Reactiveness will break that.

Reactiveness is a possible solution to the current healer problem, I'd say. Say, bosses will target random players with unpredictable, "unscripted" attacks, that require healers to react. That's the kind of healer gameplay I'd like to see.

Butt, as lotta people said, we'll have to see how much change they'll willingly do in the next major update.

Just please don't continue on the current path and add another bunch of "XXX-ready" upgrades.

Splitting attacks into nominal categories does not add "reason" for mitigation, let alone "risk and reward" as you put it in your other thread. It just reduces the net complexity of optimizing one's sustain, since so much of the finer details (and maximum permissible incoming damage relative to tank base eHP at the encounter's tuning point) will be next to nothing compared to the simple mitigation types, which would then determine which (likely singular) CD schedule is permissible.

Rather, you're simply replacing...

• mitigation that can play a part in most mechanics/attacks and with therefore greater net potential for cognitive load (especially, if damage were increased to make tank swaps worthwhile without necessitating vuln swap or move-the-AoE-out gimmicks)
  --with--
• mitigation that can meaningfully play a part only within certain attacks and frequency of action to see even the small degree of cognitive load already present.

By all means, see how much DRKs and GNBs enjoyed having their categorically-specific raid-mitigation button rendered useless to press in certain fights.

Chances are, tanks wouldn't get much more fun out of having their capacities arbitrarily reduced in a given fight if the portions of each mitigation type varied across tanks nor would they enjoy needing 3x the buttons to achieve the same agency they have now even if the tanks were homogenized to carry the same portions of each miti type (as to prevent certain tanks just being outright stronger/weaker in certain encounters).

No, I'd much prefer to keep mitigation mostly general and simply amp up our agency through increased frequency and interaction among mitigation tools (atop perhaps a fair bit more randomization and some added bankability). Simon Says provides far less overall engagement, let alone agency, than being more able to choose how much potential mitigation to invest over what windows of time.

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Food for thought:

Try these categories (formalized/nominal types A, B, and C into one of which each attack must fall) from any other perspective.

Take basic elemental damage, for instance:

Maybe an enemy is vulnerable to Fire and Wind. Okay, then you're forced to run WHM, SMN, BLM, and maybe MNK and NIN.

You can try to fix this by then aspecting a variety of attacks to various elements, but then you still end up reducing full toolkits or degrading their reward structures to just those particular attacks. NIN now has to spam Gust Blade and Aeolian Edge, Monk's damage lives or dies by whether Reply of Fire and Reply of Wind direct crit, DRG spams the newly wind-aspected Chaos Thrust / Chaotic Spring, etc. Whatever the case, you take something of which you had 100% useful... and reduced it to being useful some 16.7% of the time.

That waste, and subsequent loss of gameplay of need for extreme button bloat to return what we already had... is essentially what the suggestion would do to mitigation tools.
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Now, compare that to what can be achieved through what differences can exist even without any nominal categories dividing them (no magical vs. physical or STR vs. INT) -- namely via differences in duration, depth, scaling factors (and therefore synergies), frequency, and source of mitigation tools:

Enemies might have, for instance, a flurry of weak attacks with nonetheless high total damage, or singular strong attacks. Against the first, a duration of flat damage reduction is best, while against the latter, a single-hit high %DR is best.

But, they have additional potential synergies, too. For instance, one may pair the %DR with a flat reduction in order to take 0 damage, thereby preventing the attack from inflicting its debuff.

If you have an attack that steals Haste from an enemy, not only does that reduce their AA frequency or slow a flurry of attacks enough to be healed through, but it might also provide you enough hits to ready an extra active (gauge-sourced) mitigation/healing/suppression tool.

Etc., etc.

Such provides actual room for agency, rather than a mere color-matching pretense of complexity. Rather than playing Simon Says with a third each of a mitigation kit, you're rewarded for precise knowledge enough to minimize excess flexible mitigation spent in avoiding a debuff or in making an attack survivable if a latter one might not be without sufficient resources saved for it, for knowing not just what tools your cotank has available but also how they might synergize with, rather than merely supplement, your own..

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Originally Posted by Ayalu

In general i agree thats why i hope that 8.0 will big a really big shake up.
Or in more humorous tone, i hope yoshida and his team sunders the current system in a way not seen since the ancient world ;p

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I couldn't agree more

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Originally Posted by Inputnamehere

This game can't have "reactiveness." Not in the current design.
The current design revolves around scripting. Everything is scripted and time-based. You're supposed to press X skill at Y time point, and that's it. Reactiveness will break that.

Reactiveness is a possible solution to the current healer problem, I'd say. Say, bosses will target random players with unpredictable, "unscripted" attacks, that require healers to react. That's the kind of healer gameplay I'd like to see.

Butt, as lotta people said, we'll have to see how much change they'll willingly do in the next major update.

Just please don't continue on the current path and add another bunch of "XXX-ready" upgrades.

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If it could work for healers it can work for tanks too.
If you think about it we have currently sub-systems that have "Reactiveness" to it, healers are not the only one,

Monk shakra with brother hood, you cannot expect when you have 10 stacks is it on this GCD or the next GCD

It is hard to continue with the current design or we will see finishers on the current finisher type of gameplay style.

There should be something refresh to the design and that is what people are asking for as yoshi said.

Did you really need to make this topic twice? https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...nsters-attacks

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Monk shakra with brother hood, you cannot expect when you have 10 stacks is it on this GCD or the next GCD

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If you do this, you are bad. Use Forbidden Chakra asap, do not wait for 10 Chakra. You gain nothing from doing that.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Did you really need to make this topic twice? https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...nsters-attacks



If you do this, you are bad. Use Forbidden Chakra asap, do not wait for 10 Chakra. You gain nothing from doing that.

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Thank you for upvote the thread and BTW no one cares if I am good or bad for using system that just been introduce this expansion.

Talking like toxic player will show how your real skin look like and it has awful looking

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Originally Posted by Tunda

The game is really not giving people enough learning for entry level players..

Hall of novice is so basic

I think if we have good tutorial quests for different mechanic that would improve gameplay for most players

Example : if you see red circle use your red mitigation
If blue circle use blue mitigation
And so on

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I agree with this. The game really doesn't prepare you for anything outside the very basics, and not even all the basics at that. I just feel that way about the game in general. So players don't use things or find things confusing, then the game gets nerfed in every conceivable way. It's unfortunate.