[VPR] I would like an option to separate my combo buttons on Viper.

Good Evening!

I made an FF forums account just for this post. I levelled Viper first with the launch of Dawntrail, and I have to say beyond its problems with a lack of nuance and optimization (especially post-7.05), it still has two critical flaws. At first I was hoping it was a no-brainer change they would make, but seeing as we're at 7.05 I may as well be another drop in the bucket of feedback surrounding Viper. I'm sorry if other people have discussed this (fairly likely); I tried skimming through threads to see if other people have brought it up, but I have yet to see much on it.

With recent patches, the developers have mentioned some people sending in feedback with some alleged difficulty with managing Viper's combo routes.

I have (in my mind) a very simple solution to this that would make it feel more in line with other melee DPS's combo routes. I would like it to be an option to separate Viper's combo routes.

Put into illustrations, I would like to be able to turn this:

https://i.imgur.com/9Xy5ijh.png

Into this (courtesy of MSPaint):

https://i.imgur.com/lTMiz5F.png

Potentially using this:

https://i.imgur.com/7NGqsql.png

So that my hotbar can be more similar to this:
https://i.imgur.com/ifYexhd.png

I realize how this option would barely change the job for everyone else, but I would like it to be an option without having to put Steel Fangs and Dread Reaving Fangs on my hotbar three times each.

I understand that some people like not having lots of buttons to press, so I can not stress enough that I would prefer that this potentially be an option rather than a mandatory change. Right now, I do this so I can feel like I'm pressing 123...
https://i.imgur.com/6cXzYRn.png

Also the other critical flaw with VPR is sound design; the job sounds like even more of a wet noodle than Hakaze Gyofu.

Yes, please! This is probably my #1 gripe with VPR at the moment, and the reason why I haven't bothered taking it into any content - I know that plenty of people seem to prefer the PVP-style buttons but I think it's a bit ridiculous that the job that would without a doubt most benefit from the "split combo actions" option that was introduced in the same expansion as said job doesn't receive it for a single action available to it.

Considering the fact that VPR has 27 non-hotbar actions compared to only 18 hotbar buttons, it feels like they took the "button bloat" complaints too far in the other direction. I genuinely think a lot of the complaints about trying to remember positionals and other buff uptimes would disappear if people at least had the option to lay out their hotbars similarly to other melee jobs, without having to just have copies of the same button 3+ times on their hotbar.


Also, totally agree on the sound design - there's something ironic about the fact that the job named Viper feels completely toothless due to the non-SFX used for its skills... but that's more of a wider problem with a lot of DT job actions in general, I've noticed. I can maybe count on one hand the number of DT added or changed skills that *don't* feel like utterly weightless nothing due to their sound design.

I agree that those who wish to separate their buttons should be allowed to.

Consolidation should have always come with the caveat of being optional.

I certainly don't see a problem with allowing this, and honestly I'm not sure why it wasn't an option from the start.

I wouldn't do it myself as I like the way it is now, but having the option doesn't hurt.

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Originally Posted by Syl_

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This isn't going to work out based off of the way in which the combos branch out. You're essentially asking for an auto-combo on the final step so that you can condense the job down to a two combo system.

Performing the job's 'combo mudras' is part of the 'alleged difficulty', as you so quaintly put it. You always have the option of 'following the dotted line' if you're still learning and need to hunt-and-peck, although you're much better off learning to play from memory.

I really dont get it, why would people complain about the combo path? after the NG remove its literally 2 2 2, 1 1 1, 2 2 1, 1 1 2 repeat, there isnt more to it? if you press 2 2 <--- the third gcd is ALWAYS a rear, if you press 1 1 <--- the third gcd will always be flank? instead of always complaining about the smallest things just try to get some muscle memory.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

This isn't going to work out based off of the way in which the combos branch out. You're essentially asking for an auto-combo on the final step so that you can condense the job down to a two combo system.

Performing the job's 'combo mudras' is part of the 'alleged difficulty', as you so quaintly put it. You always have the option of 'following the dotted line' if you're still learning and need to hunt-and-peck, although you're much better off learning to play from memory.

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Alleged: 2: "asserted to be true or to exist"

Putting my own opinion on the job aside with recent patch notes, it is by definition alleged that "We've received feedback that viper's unique combo system, and the managing of its combo routes, have proven relatively difficult".

An "auto-combo on the final step" is not at all out of the ordinary if you view the hypothetical graphic I made for what this option would look like.
https://i.imgur.com/lTMiz5F.png

The job would simply need to replace the third button with either the rear options or the flank options depending on which combo was built into in much the same way Dragoon can replace either Fang & Claw or Wheeling Thrust with Drakesbane depending on which combo built into it.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

I really dont get it, why would people complain about the combo path? after the NG remove its literally 2 2 2, 1 1 1, 2 2 1, 1 1 2 repeat, there isnt more to it? if you press 2 2 <--- the third gcd is ALWAYS a rear, if you press 1 1 <--- the third gcd will always be flank? instead of always complaining about the smallest things just try to get some muscle memory.

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People complained about Noxious Gnash even though it was very easy to press even accounting for double reawaken windows. Viper's combo routes and positionals have always been hellishly easy, but would it not be alright to ask for an option for people that are more comfortable with more traditional combo routes?

It was the first job I levelled and learned in Dawntrail, and it was easy to pick up and play relatively optimally after hitting a dummy for the first time. All I ask for is an option to press 1-2-3/ctrl-1-2-3 without having 3(x2) aesthetically redundant buttons on my hotbar.

It's a bit more than 'alleged' difficulty if you're asking for simplifications for job mechanics that you're struggling with. You can just come out and say that you're finding it difficult.

The reason why an auto-combo doesn't work on the final step is because you're reducing a four combo system down to a two combo system. That's not the point of the job. My recommendation is that, now that you've levelled it, you can go ahead and park it on the shelf and find something else that's more your jam among the rest of the jobs that you've levelled. Not every job is going to resonate with you, and sometimes you're just not the target audience. It's a bit like asking cast times to be removed from BLM because you're used to having more instant casts on PCT or SMN.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's a bit more than 'alleged' difficulty if you're asking for simplifications for job mechanics that you're struggling with. You can just come out and say that you're finding it difficult.

The reason why an auto-combo doesn't work on the final step is because you're reducing a four combo system down to a two combo system. That's not the point of the job. My recommendation is that, now that you've levelled it, you can go ahead and park it on the shelf and find something else that's more your jam among the rest of the jobs that you've levelled. Not every job is going to resonate with you, and sometimes you're just not the target audience. It's a bit like asking cast times to be removed from BLM because you're used to having more instant casts on PCT or SMN.

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It's a bit less than alleged difficulty if I'm not even struggling with it to begin with. I use the term alleged difficulty because in my opinion this job has no overt difficulty to speak of, but I would have liked to respect the opinions of people that do find it difficult. I don't have to struggle with something to dislike it. Separating combo buttons is not overly a "simplification" so much as an alternative. I would appreciate if you do not assume what I find difficult and not difficult: especially this already very easy job.

Do not tell me about target audiences. I am very familiar with the game catering to people that don't main the jobs they're reworking as somebody that dislikes the DRG and AST reworks. What I am asking for is simply an option. Where jobs like Monk, Dragoon, and Astrologian lost what made them special for a lot of people with no option to go back, I would simply like an option to find a really monotonous and functionally slow job more enjoyable to play.

You are overcomplicating this very simple "four combo system" severely. It is not even close to asking to change cast times on Black Mage, because that would fundamentally change how the job plays while all I'm asking for is a quality of life change even less significant than removing Huton from a job that functionally never had to press it. Monk has a flexible combo where your three-step combo can flexibly go between the routes and Viper can do the same thing. Dragoon can change different buttons depending on which combo route was built into and hypothetically Viper would be able to do the same thing. I wish I could make a gif to explain to you how simple this would hypothetically be, but all I ask is that you take a look at the jobs I know you already have levelled and see how easy it would be to translate what they have to this job.



In case you're still not getting it:
Monk can freely press any combination of opo-opo, raptor, and couerl combo buttons. You can hypothetically press Dragon kick into Twin Snakes into Demolish but you can also hypothetically press Dragon Kick into Rising Raptor into Demolish.

This is not unlike Viper where you can hypothetically press either stage 1 fang (Steel Fangs or Dread Reaving Fangs) into either stage 2 sting (Swiftskin's Sting or Hunter's Sting) into either stage 3 positional (Hindsting/fang or Flanksbanesting/fang).

Dragoon's button conversion is conditional. If you build into its Disembowel Spiral Blow combo then Fang & Claw will be converted into Drakesbane after Wheeling Thrust. If you build into its Vorpal Thrust Lance Barrage Combo then Wheeling Thrust will be converted into Drakesbane after Fang & Claw.

Hypothetically, Viper's button conversion for stage 3 positionals could also be hypothetical. If this option were to be available, the third button would simply convert into a hind or flank depending on if the previous combo action were swiftskin's sting or hunter's sting.

You are massively overhyping what is a conceptually not very unique "four-button combo system". Viper at its core has two flexible routes not unlike monk. By your logic, Monk has a six-combo system by virtue of the fact it can flexibly go through these routes.

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Originally Posted by Syl_

a really monotonous and functionally slow job

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I just find it ironic that, in the span of the same thread, you've simultaneously demanded simplifications for VPR and dismissed the job as 'hellishly easy'. Why would you recommend changes to a job that you have no real interest in playing, and don't respect the gameplay? It's genuinely baffling. Just play something else, don't go out of your way to sabotage it.

VPR players don't want further simplifications.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I just find it ironic that, in the span of the same thread, you've simultaneously demanded simplifications for VPR and dismissed the job as 'hellishly easy'. Why would you recommend changes to a job that you have no real interest in playing, and don't respect the gameplay? It's genuinely baffling. Just play something else, don't go out of your way to sabotage it.

VPR players don't want further simplifications.

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Demanded simplifications? At which point did I sound demanding in the original post? At which point did I say that I didn't want this to hypothetically be an option?

I went out of my way to "dismiss" Viper as a hellishly easy job because you went out of your way to rudely assume I was struggling with the job. I am not asking for a "simplification". I am asking for a quality of life change. The job will not fundamentally change at all if you go from pressing 2 buttons to pressing 6 buttons that do the same thing as those two buttons. Your oh-so-special job won't suddenly be simple because some people get to have an option that will not fundamentally change the job at all. It will simply make the job less boring for people that don't want to suffer through a two-button rotation when there's an easy fix for it. It's genuinely baffling how you seem to think I'm making Viper simple when your job is already just saving 50 gauge every two minutes to perform double reawaken windows within buffs. Even uptime on this job which other melee jobs have to optimize around is hellishly easy when you have what is essentially a DPS-positive toxikon with Uncoiled Fury. I ask that you read instead of getting any more dismissive than you already are.

It is not "sabotaging" a job if it's an option. Sabotaging a job is what all the people complaining about Astro being too complex (it really wasn't) did ruining it for all the people that wanted it to be busy.

Adding an auto-combo on the final step reduces the four combo system into two. That's a fairly obvious simplification. Melee jobs are always about mechanical execution.

A beginning player will be forced to hunt-and-peck using their hotbar guidance, but this is inefficient in harder fights and lets you only plan one GCD at a time. Over time, as you get used to mentally tracking where you are in the sequence, you learn to do this without looking. NG historically added to this by adding one additional element for you to track that shifts the pattern as you play. Each one of these elements that you remove diminishes the job further.

Either way, it seems like you have a lot of disdain for this job, so I'm not really sure why you would insist on changes for it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Adding an auto-combo on the final step reduces the four combo system into two. That's a fairly obvious simplification. Melee jobs are always about mechanical execution.

A beginning player will be forced to hunt-and-peck using their hotbar guidance, but this is inefficient in harder fights and lets you only plan one GCD at a time. Over time, as you get used to mentally tracking where you are in the sequence, you learn to do this without looking. NG historically added to this by adding one additional element for you to track that shifts the pattern as you play. Each one of these elements that you remove diminishes the job further.

Either way, it seems like you have a lot of disdain for this job, so I'm not really sure why you would insist on changes for it.

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A beginning player will not be forced to do anything. Do you understand what the word optional means? It means you can opt-in to having it that way or opt-out of having it that way. Nobody is being sabotaged. Nobody is having anything taken away from them. No elements of the job are being removed. I am essentially asking for this to be an option without my hotbar looking ugly as sin.

https://i.imgur.com/ygefm3e.png

So that it would essentially look like this instead depending on which combo you built into with the third button being greyed out the same way serpent's tail conditionally converts depending on which combo GCD was used before it (e.g. Death rattle, first legacy etc.)

https://i.imgur.com/xgBdNrK.png


I do not understand how you are still struggling to understand that this is not at all a simplification of the job. How do you not understand that an OPTION will not remove anything, and this is not at all comparable to the removal of noxious gnash which was not made an option. I am simply asking to be able to put on my hotbars buttons that can not be put on hotbars.

I have no disdain for this job. Not once have I stated that I dislike the job: I just dislike that I can't assign buttons that could otherwise be optionally assigned to hotbars the same way you can opt to not have buttons change like tcj to tenri jindo or ikishoten to zanshin or macrocosmos (a GCD in case the two last examples being oGCDs ruins it) to microcosmos. I find it mindnumbingly easy to pickup and mindnumbingly easy to master both before and after the removal of noxious gnash. Just because I find it easy doesn't mean I don't want to play it. None of the standard rotations in this game are particularly complex and Viper is not even remotely an exception to that.

https://i.imgur.com/Pt5URAm.png

Asking for an 'optional' setting to reduce VPR from a four combo system to a two combo system is a bit like asking for an 'optional' setting to remove casts from BLM. It still ends up resulting in a gameplay simplification for all players in the long run.

This is a lot of effort that you're investing in trying to force gameplay changes on job that you've just described as 'monotonous', 'functionally slow', and 'hellishly easy'. If your proposal goes through like the NG change did, it'll just give you yet one more excuse to be dismissive of the job. No thank you.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Asking for an 'optional' setting to reduce VPR from a four combo system to a two combo system is a bit like asking for an 'optional' setting to remove casts from BLM. It still ends up resulting in a gameplay simplification for all players in the long run.

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Not even the same ballpark. Taking cast times away from BLM makes the job play completely differently, whereas giving you the option to split the combos just changes how your fingers move around the controls.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

This is a lot of effort that you're investing in trying to force gameplay changes on job that you've just described as 'monotonous', 'functionally slow', and 'hellishly easy'. If your proposal goes through like the NG change did, it'll just give you yet one more excuse to be dismissive of the job. No thank you.

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They aren't forcing gameplay changes and generally, the more options you have, the better.

VPR has eight standard combo buttons and four combo finishers in single target. As you might expect, that would take up a lot of hotbar space under the conventional system. OP's suggestion hinges around turning the last step into an auto-combo. The end result is that you have a simplified version of the job that operates on two alternating combos, with the hind and flank variants just being alternate animations. That defeats the purpose of the job design.

Part of the uniqueness of VPR's gameplay is that it diverges from the traditional combo system. Rather than relying on the tactile feedback of your keybind placements to tell you where you are in the sequence, you play from memory. I appreciate that this isn't for everyone, but there are a lot of alternatives that people can play instead using the traditional approach. I think if the development team keep redesigning jobs around the players who don't like playing them, the game will end up losing more players than it retains in the long run. If you try to design for everyone, you satisfy no-one.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

VPR has eight standard combo buttons and four combo finishers in single target. As you might expect, that would take up a lot of hotbar space under the conventional system. OP's suggestion hinges around turning the last step into an auto-combo. The end result is that you have a simplified version of the job that operates on two alternating combos, with the hind and flank variants just being alternate animations. That defeats the purpose of the job design.

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I think you have misunderstood what they are asking for.

From my understanding, you will end up with 6 total GCDs to replace what we already have. Steel Fangs, Reaving Fangs, Hunter's Sting, Swiftskin's Sting and, for the sake of this, 2 other GCDs, which I will call Left Fang and Right Fang.

You press Steel Fangs, it light's up Hunter's Sting and/or Swiftskin's Sting, just as it does now. The same for Reaving Fangs.

When you press, say, Hunter's Sting, Left Fang will be replaced with Flanksting Strike and Right Fang will be replaced with Flanksbane Fang. This happens at the same time, and the one with the correct venom buff will be lit up, just as it is now.

The same logic then applies with Swiftskin's Sting, turning Left Fang into Hindsting Strike and Right Fang into Hindsbane Fang.

This is essentially exactly how the current Viper combos work, it s just that these are spread out over several buttons rather than being consolidated into 2.

VPR at lvl50 has effectively 2 buttons.. I don't like that

This is a great suggestion, OP. I personally wouldn't use it because I'm fine with the current design, but giving more options is always a good thing. It shouldn't be limited to VPR, either.

I'm sorry you had to deal with someone saying you are 'sabotaging' a job even though yours is a sensible suggestion (and, in theory, easy to understand...). I'm not surprised, though.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

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What you're recommending here is already an option in the game. Drag three copies of SF and three copies of RF to your hotbar. Done.

This is probably not a good idea, however. You're probably going to place your combo fairly centrally on your keybinds, likely next to WASD. Your Reawaken actions remap SF, RF, HC, and SC, so all four of these actions need to be quickly accessible, ideally all on a single layer. You also probably want the entire twinblade combo on adjacent keys so that you can glissando it, which was the recommendation that content creators received during the media tour. Adding in redundant keybinds will probably make mapping this a lot less efficient.

Either way, if you want to try to make it work, the choice is already there.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

What you're recommending here is already an option in the game. Drag three copies of SF and three copies of RF to your hotbar. Done.

This is probably not a good idea, however. You're probably going to place your combo fairly centrally on your keybinds, likely next to WASD. Your Reawaken actions remap SF, RF, HC, and SC, so all four of these actions need to be quickly accessible, ideally all on a single layer. You also probably want the entire twinblade combo on adjacent keys so that you can glissando it, which was the recommendation that content creators received during the media tour. Adding in redundant keybinds will probably make mapping this a lot less efficient.

Either way, if you want to try to make it work, the choice is already there.

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I took a break from this thread, because talking to this person was triggering to my OCD real bad. I'd occasionally ask my girlfriend to check the thread, because I knew I'd pop a vein seeing it again. Anyway, it's so funny that you thought you were bringing something new to the table with the whole "Drag three copies of SF and three copies of RF to your hotbar" as if I wasn't illustrating that to you... several times... with pictures illustrating that exact arrangement... (I want to be able to do that without my hotbar looking ugly as sin and without the game not punishing me for pressing just 1 and 2 over and over again) and you were still choosing to be dismissive like I was somehow "simplifying" the job.

https://i.imgur.com/ZXPuZAu.png

Anyway, I spun a wheel and got Viper for mentor roulette and the job is still painfully easy to play in level 100 NR content and beyond. You were talking about the problem with changing a job to appeal to people that don't play a job... to an AST main... mains that notoriously play a job that constantly gets changed to appeal to people that don't play a job (the AST rework is still bad).

Glad to see there were a bunch of other people that knew how simple my proposed option was to break the monotony of it just being me explaining the same simple non-simplifying change over and over again. Yes, I'm necroing this thread to return to /point.

Glad to see that you resolved your keybind difficulties using existing in-game features, with no modification to the job required. It sounds like we can consider this matter resolved, then.

I feel like they should do what Aion does with its combo buttons u can create custom combos that dont clip but work based on cool down so basically your 1 2 3 <- u can add up to i believe 5 buttons per custom. Its useful for redueces button clutter.

If anything I find this alternative proposed in the OP to be more difficult than what we currently have since less actions are condensed into the same buttons, aka 2 branches shown separately, instead of just one. Unless I misunderstood something.