Advice on How to Give Advice

Hello! So the title basically gets at the question that I have - "how would you or people prefer to receive advice?" (Consider this your TLDR)

Background: This question stems from two converging trends I've been noticing -

(1) The general commentary that Dawntrail has "upped the ante" on difficulty of content in the game, and

(2) the longstanding stigma around wanting to be a helpful person in the game and being met with (often hostile) opposition in response.

In the last 2 weeks, it has felt like an increasingly frequent occurrence for me (definitely some bias as a result). I definitely don't think I'm the best player in the world, and I put a bit more weight on trying to be a good mentor than I probably should given the perceptions of mentors in the game. In the more recent occurrences, I have offered advice to gamers and the response has been... challenging, to say the least. Despite the level of animosity I've been met with, I've tried to remain polite (though I'm human and am susceptible to the whims of pettiness from time to time). Because I'm interested in reflecting and because my intent really is to just be helpful, I'm offering this as a long shot to try to get some advice on how to offer advice. It can come from anyone such as people who are struggling with the difficulty of the content or folks who have been able to successfully give advice without the backlash. I'm sure some will suggest that I don't offer the advice at all and just nope out of the situations; I'm equally interested in understanding more about that approach too. It is definitely something I am considering as an option too, though I lament that it won't help out people who could use a hand and would be responsive/thankful. Thanks in advance

Give advice when asked for advice and you can't go wrong. Otherwise, don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andevom

Give advice when asked for advice and you can't go wrong. Otherwise, don't.

---

So I should resign to failing the duty then? What happens when advice isn't solicited though it should be?

I honestly can only advice you to be more selective with who's worth your time mentoring in this game because quite frankly, many people (as you noticed yourself) just respond badly about it. Save your effort, even if it's with good-intent, because at the end of the day they just simply do not care and so should you. It will keep your mind healthy too, knowing those who do appreciate it will improve.

That doesn't mean to stop being helpful of course, it just requires a certain sense (?) to know when that person is actually wanting to improve but needs a lil nudge into the right direction which you'll get as you do more duties.
They will most likely apologize in chat and that's usually your queue to give them a small(!) hint as to why they kept dying. Noone wants a 10min guide on what to do in a normal duty

Does that make me a bad mentor? Maybe. But I'm more than happy to assist any person that is willing to listen and that's all I care about after 10/11years

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shikiseki

I honestly can only advice you to be more selective with who's worth your time mentoring in this game because quite frankly, many people (as you noticed yourself) just respond badly about it. Save your effort, even if it's with good-intent, because at the end of the day they just simply do not care and so should you. It will keep your mind healthy too, knowing those who do appreciate it will improve.

That doesn't mean to stop being helpful of course, it just requires a certain sense (?) to know when that person is actually wanting to improve but needs a lil nudge into the right direction which you'll get as you do more duties.
They will most likely apologize in chat and that's usually your queue to give them a small(!) hint as to why they kept dying. Noone wants a 10min guide on what to do in a normal duty

Does that make me a bad mentor? Maybe. But I'm more than happy to assist any person that is willing to listen and that's all I care about after 10/11years

---

Nah I think that makes a lot of sense. Reflecting back, I've definitely had some positive interactions when things have gone that way.

IMO it really depends on how badly you are failing a duty.

I use a simple checklist:

1. Are you completing the content fine, but you notice someone is playing in an odd or incorrect way? Don't give advice unless asked.

2. Did someone die, or the group wiped but the player that erred has an excuse out of their control? (example: cat attacked them) No, I still wouldn't give advice unless asked.

3. Did it happen again? Yes, I would start giving pointers in a friendly way. (example: Perhaps you can put your cat in a cage to prevent the maulings?)

4. Do they refuse to fix the issue and you continue to fail? Votekick.

Player POV:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2...3YrBK/200.webp

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxilor

IMO it really depends on how badly you are failing a duty.

I use a simple checklist:

1. Are you completing the content fine, but you notice someone is playing in an odd or incorrect way? Don't give advice unless asked.

2. Did someone die, or the group wiped but the player that erred has an excuse out of their control? (example: cat attacked them) No, I still wouldn't give advice unless asked.

3. Did it happen again? Yes, I would start giving pointers in a friendly way. (example: Perhaps you can put your cat in a cage to prevent the maulings?)

4. Do they refuse to fix the issue and you continue to fail? Votekick.

Player POV:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2...3YrBK/200.webp

---

This gave me a good chuckle! How would you define "completing the content fine?"

My general rules of thumb:

1. Be yourself. Speak the way you normally would.

2. If someone asks for advice, then offer it. Answer the question. But don't take the opportunity to unload everything else that's on your mind.

3. If no one asks, then wait for the end of combat. If it's a wipe, ask whether anyone has questions, or phrase your suggestion for preventing the wipe as a question ("Maybe we should...?"). But if it's the first wipe and no one speaks up, maybe just give it another go. Sometimes people learn; sometimes they'll get more frustrated and become more open to advice.

4. Try to phrase things in a way that makes it clear everyone has a part to play. For example, not, "Healer, take the stack marker mid." Instead, "That might be easier if we all stacked in the center."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KLuz

This gave me a good chuckle! How would you define "completing the content fine?"

---

lol glad you liked it.

I'd say as long as the dungeon/trial is being completed in a somewhat normal pace then everything is fine. Some people are nervous about wall to wall pulling and will do half pulls and I don't see an issue with that for example.

However, if you were single pulling I might suggest as a Healer to speed things up a bit lol.

I have found that stating what I do to handle a situation is more effective than stating what someone else should do in the same situation. Like 'I like to use Arm's Length here' vs. 'You should use Arm's Length here.' And a little empathy goes a looong way like agreeing that a mechanic can be a little tricky even if it isn't for you personally.

Unsolicited advice tends to go over badly in a lot of cases, especially if there was nothing that prompted it.
I loathe the people that launch into a detailed explanation the moment the party draws close to a boss arena (they have these macro'd I suppose?) not even giving the party the chance to try this blind. This is especially aggravating on new encounters that aren't even special as far as mechanics go.

If it's not Ex or Savage give people a chance to fail and learn from it.
If anyone asks for advice by all means provide it. If the group isn't learning, nobody asks for advice and you notice a problem offer to give some.
If nobody takes you up on it you need to make a choice (I usually just work my way down this list):

• let the group try and risk failure again, continue to offer to give advice
• if the issue is moving out of mechanics and you know the dance throw a marker on yourself
• give unsolicited advice pertaining to that specific problem, risk getting yelled at and your advice ignored. When giving advice in this way phrase it as a suggestion, not an order or simply say "[this mechanic] does [thing]" without calling anyone out.
• votekick the problematic player if it's just one
• leave if you think the party as a whole isn't worth your time

There is no elegant right solution to this problem, just varying degrees of stepping on people's toes or letting them step on yours. There is no universally right way of giving advice, it all depends on the situation and the people involved. There is, however, a wrong way to give advice (unsolicited, unprompted and commanding) and it's best to avoid that.

Ask, don't tell.
Ask if they want some help, as you have ideas, knowledge, etc. Then show them the way. Guide them. Telling is often construed as dictating, and creates negativity. Of course some will be offended no matter what you do.

For a game that's supposedly so easy, it's always a bit odd how people need to give advice to strangers so much. Just finish the duty and move on, you'll spend less time frustrated that way

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KLuz

So I should resign to failing the duty then? What happens when advice isn't solicited though it should be?

---

In you original post, you stated that you wanted to be a good mentor. Assuming that's true, then I recommend that you make the foundation of your mentorship one of respect for your mentee.

Here's what I hope is an easy test; when you are mentoring, which of these is more important:

• your mentee getting good ASAP so the content can be completed
• respecting your mentee's distinct needs and boundaries

Any time you are tempted to choose the first option, you are at risk of being a poor mentor. Not only because trespassing a person's boundaries makes them less likely to listen and learn, but also because it means that something aside from your mentee has become your primary focus. If you truly want to be a good mentor, that means mentoring at your mentee's pace. Players who are ready to receive advice will usually ask for it. Players who aren't ready for advice will usually not ask for it.

It's fun to figure out mechanics. It's fun to have that moment of "a-ha!" realization when it finally clicks. Let players chase that. Let players organically iterate and improve. When they want advice, they'll usually ask for it.

So instead of resigning yourself to "failing the duty", resign yourself to "keep trying". After all, that's what your mentee is doing. Whether they learn quickly or slowly, they will eventually get there, as long as nobody gives them a reason to give up.

And that's how you can still be a great mentor in these situations: by mitigating the possibility that someone will get on this person's case for not being good at a game fast enough. By being a cheerleader for the group, you proactively keep the vibes positive and mitigate their likelihood of souring. Saying something like "Hell yeah, getting better! :D" reassures anyone who is having trouble that the vibe is still positive, and that in turn will reduce any critical self-talk they're experiencing, which would otherwise hinder their ability to learn. Plus, they'll have more fun when they're less worried about their group hating them, and that's a great thing to be able to provide to others!

The other purpose of saying something positive is that people often assume that others feel the same way they do. So if someone is feeling negative about the number of failures, they might assume others are as well and feel like they're speaking for the group if they say something about it. When you say something that makes it clear that your vibe is one of positivity, hopefulness, and a willingness to keep trying, that makes it clear that not everyone is feeling negatively, which can mitigate the likelihood of any vocal conflict. It might even encourage them to feel positively about it as well, especially if you can do a good job of encouraging camaraderie.

Sometimes you won't be able to stay positive. Sometimes you'll find yourself feeling impatient. That's okay! You're a person and you have feelings and needs, too! So if you find that you don't have the energy to be the kind of mentor you'd like to be, own that. If you need to, make an excuse about a sudden minor emergency ("My cat spilled soup, I need to clean it before it stains the carpet!") so you can leave the group and attend to your own needs. But it's important to recognize that your impatience is a you problem, and not to make that other people's problem.

I hope that this advice helps you to be the best mentor you can be! Best of luck!

(also, this is advice for normal difficulty content; I can't speak on EX/Savage stuff)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KLuz

So I should resign to failing the duty then? What happens when advice isn't solicited though it should be?

---

Slap a safety dorito on your head and start jumping in the safespots.

In a dungeon/normal raid situation, I basically just give advice if we wipe twice to the same thing, or we wipe once and someone failed the same mechanic multiple times (causing the wipe). But I'll definitely sass people who spoil mechs before anyone even sees them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shibi

Slap a safety dorito on your head and start jumping in the safespots.

---

that would actually be really fun lol. "FOLLOW ME EVERYONE!! FOLLOW THE DORITO!!" :D

Don't. This community has a portion of it that is completely repulsed by the notion that they could be doing anything wrong and will freak out if you give them any advice whatsoever. It's not worth risking your account to try to help these people. If they're preventing duty completion, just vote kick and move on.

I always just say "You want some advice?" if someone seems to be struggling. If they don't reply I don't say anything further... unless we start wiping. Then it's unsolicited advice time. If they get annoyed/toxic that's on them. No point being petty cause they're clearly having a bad enough time already.

Long ago, one player kept dying to an easily avoidable dungeon mechanic: "If you get the beam on you, run to one of the poles around the perimeter to get rid if it before it kills you." Rather than call the player out, I just typed the above quoted line. He didn't fail it again.

Unless they specifically ask or if repeated failures are actually being disruptive to the run, I usually don't explain things and let them figure it out on their own.

I generally assume the average player is at the very least capable of learning from mistakes.

I'd speak respectfully but only comment once, maybe twice at most. If someone is not receptive they aren't going to change their ways in the following 10 to 20 minutes.

Personally I am only willing to say things like "Tank stance?" "Dance Partner?" "Kardia?" "Fairy?" And then just go about my day if they still don't do anything. If it's a failed mechanic I may comment about that once but speak in generalities and not blame a specific person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

If it's a failed mechanic I may comment about that once but speak in generalities and not blame a specific person.

---

This is the best way to handle those situations and life in general. Avoid making the other party lose face.

"If we stand next to the statues when there's a lightning beam, that should help the fight go smoother." rather than "WTF are you doing, when the burny melty beam locks on you RUN BEHIND A STATUE"

Firstly, I recommend just giving advice outside of dungeons, because then you have time to break the ice and "become friends" first.

This is integral, otherwise your advice will usually appear as if you rudely blurted it out in an angry, aggressive or insulting way, despite your best intentions.

If you wipe and you really do need to give advice to allow people to clear the duty, give it in a generic way:

• Don't aim the advice at any one person. For example "the mechanic is done like this" or "players need to do X to solve the mechanic". That way it doesn't seem like you are referring specifically to a person in your party, and therefore it cannot be interpreted as being rude.
• Do not order anyone or tell anyone what to do in the game. Phrase it as a suggestion like "in order to solve x mechanic, you can do x or y". I've always phrased my words this way, but SE's revised policy states it should be phrased as a suggestion as well.
• In most cases, no point bothering with class/job suggestions at all. People don't play well in lots of content. Maybe they are having a bad day, playing an alt class, have a disability, exhausted from work. Just leave them be. Playing well isn't required in a dungeon.
• If it's a high-end duty such as savage, sure, it's more serious content, people know what sort of content this is and it's fair to give advice (politely) or to consider kicking them or disbanding for class/job issues if they are contributing extraordinarily poor use of their kits that is interefering with the goals of the party. I don't mean making a small mistake but for example consistently using no mitigation for tankswaps, not using basic damage buffs that unlock most of their rotation and contribute 75% of their damage etc.

You can also of course give advice if someone asks a question in a duty, which is rare.

Now, you might think "but then how will they improve?". The answer to that is most people are in a Free Company, the Novice Network or have social connections. Alternatively, they watch content creators on YouTube and Twitch. They learn things about the game over time and improve this way.

So I just trust that if they have a question, they are probably asking it in FC chat to people they actually know and feel comfortable with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KLuz

the longstanding stigma around wanting to be a helpful person in the game and being met with (often hostile) opposition in response.

---

Ever since I joined the Novice Network, I stopped seeing that as an issue. I answer questions constantly in there. It may not be perfect, but it works despite all the people who claim otherwise.

I also have often been in FCs that get a lot of new players and just been the one constantly answering their questions, so that is another way to do it. Be in a new player-oriented FC that just sees new players up to max level, where maybe they'll leave and find a max level FC.

You have to play stupid and "pretend" most other people are too. instead of saying "hey buddy you gotta stack with us, then move away, or we all die" you have to approach it like "i think we are supposed to stackthan spread maybe, idk. can we try that?" because people will attack you for anything else, and possibly get you suspended for trying to make it a better place. Yoshi himself even gave a similar example.

personally, i just wait til people eat dirt a couple times then i offer tips, and wait for a reply. if its really bad i explain explain how the mechs work and what to do, and who should do it. if they listen they listen, if they dont, idc. i can easily leave and make money for 30 mins and requeue.

Lots of good suggestions here already.
I'm not a mentor, but I've successfully explained mechanics to new players, never had anyone snap at me, and I've also been the one that keeps dying at something and going "Help, what is even happening?" lol. So here are some combined thoughts from both sides:

Definitely stay friendly and positive; if you're going to type instead of just slapping on the dorito, rather stop where you're standing in a downtime and type a few filler words more to make the tone friendlier, and more general. Don't call out single players cause that can be stressful.
And use empathy:
Unlike what some people like to claim, usually a player knows themselves that things aren't working out and they're doing something wrong, that they're not understanding the mechanic, that they're not finding the right place to stand, etc. They just either don't grasp yet how to get it right or there's something out of their control (ping, disability, slower reflexes, sick day when they're unwell but just wanted to unwind and do some group content, attacking cat like in the example above lol - or whatever else). You can assume it's frustrating for them, too, and nobody wants to be the one that holds the party back. Depending on their previous experiences in 14 or other MMOs, they may already be bracing themselves for angry tirades.

So be nice, let them keep face, be positive about the whole thing, at repeated wipes frame it as a communal learning thing, or as said above, say something that reassures them that yes, this part is difficult, many people struggle with it.
Sometimes it's a simple part of the mechanic that they just didn't see or grasp, and when they do, it makes each subsequent run easier for them, but it's important that the learning experience is friendly.

And stick with the stuff that actually lets you all proceed; don't worry about rotations etc. If they're trying hard not to die but just don't understand what is happening when the boss is doing that one thing, rotations are going to be really far from their mind. And if they're doing fine in getting through the dungeon but are levelling a class or have simply not played the current one in a while and are giving it a spin in a dungeon, and maybe the update switched the button layout around on them, they'll take their own time learning and don't want to be yelled at for trying to practice.

A sidenote, if they're not responding (I've seen that mentioned in some similar threads), always consider they're not trying to be rude, but they may be on console, with either no keyboard at all except the horrific software one where you move the controller cursor to each letter, or it's lying further away and getting to it would mean disrupting what they're doing.

I’m late to this, and didn’t read every response, so apologies if this is already said.

There is nothing against ToS in giving advice, provided it is done respectfully.

Aka “you’re doing it wrong”, “you have to do it this way” is bad, but

“Can we try…?”, “Maybe we should…?” is generally fine, although generally it’s better not to give unsolicited advice at all.


Of course, starting with a “is everyone ok?” Or “let’s give it our best shot” in auto translate usually prompts questions or maybe just an “I’m sorry”.

If you have been polite, and they are rude back, ignore it. If their rudeness causes multiple wipes, vote kick or you can drop out.

We have to keep in mind some people genuinely enjoy learning the mechanics on their own and don’t want it spoiled. They should be using trusts imo, but it is what it is.

If the party has been wiping a bit I'll generally say "If anyone needs tips, I'm happy to help. I'm okay if we keep going blind, too." More often than not, someone asks me about something they aren't sure of and I explain. Sometimes they say that they never understood X because no one would explain it. Sometimes I don't get any response but that's to be expected. I don't usually get people being salty because I only tell them if they say they want help for something. Asking first means the power is in their hands to say yes or no and when there's a choice they're actively able to participate in (as opposed to unsolicited advice) I've found people are a lot more receptive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

If the party has been wiping a bit I'll generally say "If anyone needs tips, I'm happy to help. I'm okay if we keep going blind, too." More often than not, someone asks me about something they aren't sure of and I explain. Sometimes they say that they never understood X because no one would explain it.

---

Honestly I've had people say "I've been playing this for years and I still don't understand it" and be relieved to finally get a mechanic. So yeah, putting the offer for help out there is always worthwhile.

Ask them if they can read mechanics at all or if their dads would be proud of how they play, and then profusely apologize to the GM in the gaol.

I've been noticing a lot more hostility around giving and receiving advice lately myself. I'm not sure if it's due to me playing on Dynamis a bunch the last month to get together with friends and the culture is different from Aether or if it's just a lot of new and returning people to the game, but here's my strategy. We're going to use World of Darkness alliance raid as an example as it's a place we all get sent to a lot.

We're fighting Angra Mainyu. Either two tanks are fighting for aggro and spinning the boss around, or no tanks have stance on and aggro is bouncing all over the place, causing the laser beam blasts to hit everyone else. I'm not going to say anything at first--I want people to be able to assess the situation and determine how to fix it for themselves. Honestly I usually won't say anything unless we actually wipe--even with a scuffed run most of these Alliance raid fights are still easy enough to clear if there's enough people up and attacking the boss. If we wipe, I may put something in chat like "Let's keep the boss facing north to control the lasers" or "I think we missed one of the adds. Make sure to kill any additional enemies that spawn."

Even if one person is clearly the one messing everything up, I never call them out on it directly. I just try to explain the mechanics like I would to a friend who's new to the fight and a little unsure. Calling someone out directly is only going to make people defensive, and especially on casual content like alliance raids, it's not the end of the world if people mess up and die a lot, chances are everyone can still clear just fine and it's not worth getting upset over.

Granted, even with this strategy, I've had a few people get super defensive and pissy anyway. At that point I just disengage and block them because if someone asking nicely in group content to please do something very basic like tank the boss, accept a raise, or heal anyone ever is enough to piss them off then they're just being childish at that point and are not worth my time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KLuz

Hello! So the title basically gets at the question that I have [...]

---

You're in a tough spot to be sure. That being said, it seems sensible to me the position you're in. I believe the phrase is 'unsolicited advice is criticism, always.' That is to say if you give advice without being asked, you're by the nature of your advice criticizing and being critical of someone. I know it doesn't feel that way, you just want to help, but he reality of the matter is this is why being a nice person can suck: sometimes we have to step into uncomfortable to try to be nice. Sometimes people don't want us to be nice, sometimes we come off as mean or offish or unsettling by being nice to people who don't know us, and frankly some people just bully nice folk for no good reason.

Fact of the matter is, being nice is risky, that's why it's noble. If there was no risk or difficulty in being a nice person, we wouldn't admire nice people so much you know?

So, unsolicited advice is criticism, always. I stand by. Do I think that should stop you from being a nice person? Not even a little.