Reminder for healers

You are important for the team if you are in a dangerous situation heal yourself first before anyone else. If you die we most likely will all die depending of the content. I have seen SO many healers dying lately trying to save a party member before themself As a tank if i have to die for you to live i will do it gladly. I litterally cant clear Arcadion 2 with randoms because both healers always dies at like 40% so please if you are hurt heal yourself first

Problem is that many mechanics will just kill you immediately even at full health.

Get hit by a heart and you get stunned, AoEs will spawn under you and you will die.

Get hit by a bee and fly in the wall, get hit by another bee before you can move away and you will die.

The room for error is basically zero in many of the new fights. Especially in the more chaotic ones. And when you make one little mistake as a healer you will likely cause a wipe.

For what it's worth, the healers you want to send this message to don't use these forums.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Problem is that many mechanics will just kill you immediately even at full health.

Get hit by a heart and you get stunned, AoEs will spawn under you and you will die.

Get hit by a bee and fly in the wall, get hit by another bee before you can move away and you will die.

The room for error is basically zero in many of the new fights. Especially in the more chaotic ones. And when you make one little mistake as a healer you will likely cause a wipe.

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I saw that happened too, I never understood why healers, a crucial role like this having really bad armors I get it they are casters and healers but like even in real life Combat Medic are geared as much as everyone or at least if you wnat to make more sence give healers more Vitality more HP it should be a trait of the role like maximum health increased by 20% with weaker variant for lower levels

I play favorites: you are a baller certified Sigma Level damage dealer? I will do whatever it takes to keep you alive. You are my precious baby and I will burn everything possible to keep you alive since you have bothered to learn how to play your class. You press Feint/Addle? Bonus points and I will coddle you. You are a gigachad tank that uses buddy mit on the MT routinely? You are my precious baby and I will protect you. You do things that will enable prog like clemency, or if it's a FUBAR situation and you have a stack, killing yourself to save the raid? I will literally HARDCAST the res for you, every time, no questions asked.

Hell, if you do those things, and you ask for a shield so that you can greed a mech for uptime? No problem. You save me headaches and grief, so I will do something nice to enable you.

Also, if you are cute or funny, I give you special attention as well. Male Rothgar co healer? We ball. Cute lala tank? We ball. Funny and creative name? We ball.

YOU COMMIT THE CARDINAL SIN OF TAKING AN ACTION AFTER BEING RES'D AND DIE AGAIN? YOU REMAIN THERE FOREVER UNLESS THE OTHER HEALER DEIGNS TO HAVE MERCY UPON YOU. DO NOT DO THIS. EVER.

The ONLY time that I break this iron clad rule is if party death is imminent without your sorry ass up and alive. They don't deserve to suffer for your foolishness and lack of foresight. LET YOUR HEALERS HEAL YOU IF YOU GET UP FFS YOU HAVE FIVE SECONDS OF PURE IMMUNITY AND THE LEAST THAT YOU CAN DO IS HUMBLE YOURSELF AND NOT HIT YOUR BASIC COMBO STARTER AND DIE AGAIN. You have weakness. You lost all your resources. That 250 potency basic attack ain't doing anything, honey. I'm sorry, but that ship has sailed and you just gotta make like Elsa and "let it go".

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

LET YOUR HEALERS HEAL YOU IF YOU GET UP FFS YOU HAVE FIVE SECONDS OF PURE IMMUNITY AND THE LEAST THAT YOU CAN DO IS HUMBLE YOURSELF AND NOT HIT YOUR BASIC COMBO STARTER AND DIE AGAIN.

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I get it the vibe. But I would also be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of players don't know that the "five seconds of post-rez immunity that ends prematurely if you take an action" mechanic exists; the game does next to nothing to teach players about this functionality. I'll add this to the list of things that Hall of the Novice could teach but doesn't.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I get it the vibe. But I would also be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of players don't know that the "five seconds of post-rez immunity that ends prematurely if you take an action" mechanic exists; the game does next to nothing to teach players about this functionality. I'll add this to the list of things that Hall of the Novice could teach but doesn't.

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To be fair, you'd think they'd eventually learn when they die to mechanics after being rezzed while other party members just stand in the fire taking a short little break. If it's a sprout, no big deal, but I've seen more than a few veterans that clearly don't have the desire to improve unless it's spoonfed to them. That's why we get complains about the MSQ dungeons being too difficult.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

YOU COMMIT THE CARDINAL SIN OF TAKING AN ACTION AFTER BEING RES'D AND DIE AGAIN? YOU REMAIN THERE FOREVER UNLESS THE OTHER HEALER DEIGNS TO HAVE MERCY UPON YOU. DO NOT DO THIS. EVER.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

Also just to add my 2 cents since I've tanked since late HW: you are ego tripping if you have "you pull you tank". Get over yourselves. Stop being cry babies. I've tanked literally every Ultimate except for TOP from start to finish. I've tanked every raid tier from Sigmascape seriously... you are ego tripping.

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Hypocrisy somehow?

Just pick up the poor souls or you are not better than the you pull you tank guys.

I agree with you, but unfortunately you will get push back anytime you ask healers to do the bare minimum in this game... I say that as a healer main.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I get it the vibe. But I would also be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of players don't know that the "five seconds of post-rez immunity that ends prematurely if you take an action" mechanic exists; the game does next to nothing to teach players about this functionality. I'll add this to the list of things that Hall of the Novice could teach but doesn't.

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5 seconds doesn't give you enough time to start casting. So unless you're a WHM with the "thin air" option, you're basically going to have to hit Lucid Dreaming before you can do anything else. It's actually the worst on Scholar, because if Lucid Dreaming is not available, you are going to have to wait for Aetherflow before you have another option, where as WHM can wait for Assize.

Which brings around the point that, unless one of those options are available, don't hit "Accept" to revive until one is, or you're going to get nailed by the very next thing that does damage. So that might require spending 60s on the floor if you just got revived and immediately KO'd after using Lucid Dreaming. Because that does happen.

Probably the worst version of this problem is trying to use LB3 without a tank still alive. Because the boss will make a bee-line to you the second you do ANY action.

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Originally Posted by Noox-115

You are important for the team if you are in a dangerous situation heal yourself first before anyone else. If you die we most likely will all die depending of the content. I have seen SO many healers dying lately trying to save a party member before themself As a tank if i have to die for you to live i will do it gladly. I litterally cant clear Arcadion 2 with randoms because both healers always dies at like 40% so please if you are hurt heal yourself first

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while I would love to oblige you, its in my make-up. heal myself if I have the luxury, keep the tank up always, dps second if at all possible.... sorry, just how my main was raised

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

while I would love to oblige you, its in my make-up. heal myself if I have the luxury, keep the tank up always, dps second if at all possible.... sorry, just how my main was raised

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thats fine its all in good intention

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

To be fair, you'd think they'd eventually learn when they die to mechanics after being rezzed while other party members just stand in the fire taking a short little break.

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As someone who is friends with a lot of low skill players and has run user testing sessions for games, I would absolutely not think that. Folks who are high-functioning at games like us tend to vastly overestimate the potential of the overall gaming populace; we have so finely honed our ability to identify patterns and solve puzzles that it's hard for us to truly imagine the difference between our abilities and the abilities of others. This isn't a 1-to-1 analogy, but the vibe is very similar to this xkcd comic:

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/average_familiarity.png

From my experience paying attention to less skilled players, I would say it's far more likely that your average player is barely noticing anything that their teammates are doing outside of "where do I stand to not die". And when these players die, they are more likely to be feeling intense emotions like shame that will cloud their ability to learn anything.

The TL;DR is that it's easy to overestimate what your average player is going to pick up on, and that to truly engage with the reality at play we all need to lower our expectations. Which, to be clear, isn't to say that players can't learn these things; the game just has to be designed in a way that effectively teaches these concepts, and right now it is not doing that.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Words and XKCD....

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Maybe I do overestimate some people (which is sad), but I don't think my expectations are misplaced. This is why I specifically said it's fine for sprouts to not understand. In the context of the comic, the average person would be a sprout. Someone who isn't used to the game or the type of skill checks put in place.

But If you manage to get to level cap and the end of the MSQ, by that point you should be able to meet most of those expectations, either by looking things up or watching those around you. In the context of the comic, that's no longer the average person. It's someone who's at least taken some courses on geochemistry.

And to clarify, by expectations I don't even mean mechanics like weaving, clipping, slide casting, snapshots, etc... That's all advanced stuff that you get into when raiding and usually need to be taught. I'd hope that a person that's no longer a sprout would have the ability/curiosity to look at/up their buffs. We've had the transcendent buff since sometime in Shadowbringers. And once again, I don't expect these people to know which attacks go through transcendent (I don't remember them all), just "Oh hey, this buff exists when I'm being rezzed I wonder what it does? Maybe I should look it up or ask."

The one thing I'll agree with you on is that the game can be better about teaching certain concepts, but it probably shouldn't be "If you die, you get rez immunity!" instead it should be, "Hey things happen in-game, you'll get buffs and debuffs. Pay attention to them." Though maybe the game does teach that now? I don't know. I can't remember when I've actually done guildhests.

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Originally Posted by Noox-115

You are important for the team if you are in a dangerous situation heal yourself first before anyone else. If you die we most likely will all die depending of the content. I have seen SO many healers dying lately trying to save a party member before themself As a tank if i have to die for you to live i will do it gladly. I litterally cant clear Arcadion 2 with randoms because both healers always dies at like 40% so please if you are hurt heal yourself first

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This always fascinates me because I never have these issues lol

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

Maybe I do overestimate some people (which is sad), but I don't think my expectations are misplaced. This is why I specifically said it's fine for sprouts to not understand. In the context of the comic, the average person would be a sprout. Someone who isn't used to the game or the type of skill checks put in place.

But If you manage to get to level cap and the end of the MSQ, by that point you should be able to meet most of those expectations, either by looking things up or watching those around you. In the context of the comic, that's no longer the average person. It's someone who's at least taken some courses on geochemistry.

And to clarify, by expectations I don't even mean mechanics like weaving, clipping, slide casting, snapshots, etc... That's all advanced stuff that you get into when raiding and usually need to be taught. I'd hope that a person that's no longer a sprout would have the ability/curiosity to look at/up their buffs. We've had the transcendent buff since sometime in Shadowbringers. And once again, I don't expect these people to know which attacks go through transcendent (I don't remember them all), just "Oh hey, this buff exists when I'm being rezzed I wonder what it does? Maybe I should look it up or ask."

The one thing I'll agree with you on is that the game can be better about teaching certain concepts, but it probably shouldn't be "If you die, you get rez immunity!" instead it should be, "Hey things happen in-game, you'll get buffs and debuffs. Pay attention to them." Though maybe the game does teach that now? I don't know. I can't remember when I've actually done guildhests.

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Curiosity and wondering and looking things up - all traits which are not default package for every person. And even if it is for some areas (like their other hobbies or work-related activities), the game might not be part of the same mindset. I think expecting players to look up unknowns just because they played long enough a game which doesn’t really get any more difficult - is misplaced, sadly. The best you can do is share knowledge yourself and hope for the best.

@ Tint

I mean, I can see both points of the arguments for the 5 second raise rule and the tanks taking it too far on the tank pull rule.

The 5 second raise rule I think I was just observing my buffs one day to find out. At first, I usually tried to time my accept as DPS after a dangerous mech is done. Eg. Don't accept on a certain earth boss in Shadowbringers until the triple spam of Fault Zone / Massive Landslide is almost done. 5 seconds is still a short amount of time, so I try to use something like Benediction and Tetragramaton for those times a DPS accepts my raise.

For the tank pull thing, it needs more context to see who is in the wrong. Although it is not well taught both here and Warcraft. The first person to pull will have all the initial aggro / enmity / hate of all enemies. If this happens by accident, at the very least drag the enemies to the tank so their supposed easy single AoE can actually save you. It it also very awkward to purposely drag the second group from Narnia back to group 1. Barely any damage is being done from the person dragging anyhow, so it may be better to ask the tank to try out a big pull. If they are interested, suggest to them that they generally just need to pop 1 major defensive at a time if the healer is using 1 at a time too.

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

And to clarify, by expectations I don't even mean mechanics like weaving, clipping, slide casting, snapshots, etc... That's all advanced stuff that you get into when raiding and usually need to be taught.

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I'm not comfortable classifying all of that as, "advanced stuff for raiders."

In particular, snapshotting — the disconnect between "the orange puddle" and "the attack's 'actual' animation" — is an important part of understanding whether you'll be affected by a mechanic, across all levels of content. There is nothing intuitive about getting hit by an attack when it looks like your character was a million miles away from the attack's 'actual' animation.

I also believe that players would be better served by the game explaining how Weaponskills and Spells (GCDs) generally share a "global cooldown," but Abilities (oGCDs) do not. The game should at least hint that the player might be able to take an action in the period of time between an action's cast interval and recast interval.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I'm not comfortable classifying all of that as, "advanced stuff for raiders."

In particular, snapshotting — the disconnect between "the orange puddle" and "the attack's 'actual' animation" — is an important part of understanding whether you'll be affected by a mechanic, across all levels of content. There is nothing intuitive about getting hit by an attack when it looks like your character was a million miles away from the attack's 'actual' animation.

I also believe that players would be better served by the game explaining how Weaponskills and Spells (GCDs) generally share a "global cooldown," but Abilities (oGCDs) do not. The game should at least hint that the player might be able to take an action in the period of time between an action's cast interval and recast interval.

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The reason I say those are advanced is because they probably can't be consistently taught in game by a tutorial. It might be something that can be mentioned, but because all those mechanics are reliant on ping and how it interacts with the game's netcode, everyone's experience will be wildly different. Hell, even for players that do understand them, they're so greatly effected by ping that they can completely change the gameplay experience. When I moved from Vegas to Southern Texas, my ability to double weave, and the timing for snapshots and slidecasting were all drastically changed.

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

But If you manage to get to level cap and the end of the MSQ, by that point you should be able to meet most of those expectations

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I get why you'd think that, but when you actually look at the bare minimum that's required to complete the MSQ, there's almost nothing there. You can complete your dungeons and trials by having your lifeless body dragged to the finish line by more skilled players. Which means that solo content is the only thing that truly tests players. And the bulk of what solo instances test players on is "when you see this, stand here" and "when you see that, don't stand there". And when that turns out to be too hard, you can play them on Very Easy difficulty.

When solo instances have any kind of mechanic that's more complex than that, there's always pop-up text that tells the player what to do, because the devs know they haven't taught players anything so they can't expect them to know anything.


...And as a bit of an aside, your average controller player probably doesn't even know how to look at their buffs; it's a surprisingly inaccessible and inconvenient process to do so (as someone who actually wants to look at their buffs and debuffs, it truly sucks).

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

...And as a bit of an aside, your average controller player probably doesn't even know how to look at their buffs; it's a surprisingly inaccessible and inconvenient process to do so (as someone who actually wants to look at their buffs and debuffs, it truly sucks).

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Plus one to that. I play with a controller and the buffs/debuffs description is a bane of my existence. You are sort of supposed to hover over it with your virtual mouse which is a thing I basically never do, as mid fight it means I am going to eat all the aoes and bad stuff in the meantime, as I am out of reach of my regular controls. Maybe if I am under KO already and someone else got the same stuff. But usually I just rely on my pc friends reading them or contextual clues over the results vs visual of the icon.

I am a PC player using a keyboard and MMO mouse, so I don't know how it feels to use the controller. I do know a Savage Raider friend does use a controller plugged into his PC >.> You never caught him playing AST seriously before they changed the card system to how they are now. Supposedly the old cards were not designed with controllers in mind and you pretty much needed my setup to do it more quickly. My left hand is only having to press the movement directions, shift, control and shift + control. The mouse on my right thumb area is used to press the numbers in conjunction with the keyboard. I can comfortably press 1 - 6 with the mouse without it feeling like an over extension.