Dawntrail is what happens when you forget your own wisdom

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...039&height=576

DT is what happens, I'm starting to dread, when the people who dispensed that wisdom aren't tightly overseeing the whole process.
I think the game needs new blood to thrive, but they gotta tutor these people better. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see this as growing pains.
But if this trend continues, I have a bleak outlook on the future of the game, as far as msq is concerned.

Thank you for this, OP. It's nice to have a rebuttal to all the people defending DT because we just don't like "not being the main character".

Having proof that basically shows that the literal bloody point of the game is for the WoL to be the main character is great.

Always good to see this kind of reminder, but it's not on a japanese forum so it won't see the light of day unfortunately.

Straight from the man himself...

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

DT is what happens, I'm starting to dread, when the people who dispensed that wisdom aren't tightly overseeing the whole process.
I think the game needs new blood to thrive, but they gotta tutor these people better. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see this as growing pains.

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The problem is the process. And looking back, there is some warning connection in term of structure that came from Yoshi himself. I'll give two examples;

Example 1:

- When Gaius came back for the first time at the end of SB, the game didn't flat out acknowledge it was him, but it gave so much hint that it's all but confirmed.

- Later on during the media tour for ShB, Yoshi specifically talked about this scene, and how he told the team to went back and make it more obvious to the players (i.e zooming the camera at certain key element to make sure the player see it). I forgot the exact words, but Yoshi said he doesn't want to pull the rug out under the players, and we should be always given enough clues.

- That's not a bad idea of course, but as I mentioned in other threads DT has a very clear problem with over-telegraphing the story as if the writers are afraid we're going to miss the obvious.


Example 2:

- This one is more recent, Yoshi acknowledge that their dungeon design is getting really repetitive.

- But at the same time, he defends the template make it easier to train new people coming to the team and make it easier to share their idea (!?).

- The thing is, I would think one of the most important part of bringing in new blood is for them to bring in fresh idea. But what Yoshi said kinda implies that's just on superfluous level. Rather new people are already trained to be railroad into current design, it's like they come to put in a new pain job on an old wall, rather than making a new wall.



The second example is more concerning to me because it appears more consistent. As observed by others, DT feels like a collection of previous successful elements rather than new creative vision. The Amuroh 2.0 city, the Meteion 2.0 (almost down to a tee), the cool Zeno's extrance 2.0 (or 3.0 if you count Gaia's entrance as 1.0) ...etc... it's almost like ... a sloppy attempt at imitating Ishakawa. So the question is ... is DT really the talent limit of the new team, or they're being conditioned to work this way? Because given what we know about Japan working culture ... the latter case has a really good chance to be the case.

I don't think we necessarily have to be the "main character" at all times as far as the world is concerned, but we should always be central to our story. I love the premise of guiding a young, naive princess to surpass her siblings and become queen, but that doesn't mean just sitting there and nodding at everything she does. We've fought threats that would end the universe, even if "it's Wuk Lamat's journey", we should still have wisdom and other lessons to impart to her. Instead the only thing we've learned and imparted to others is to stand around when important characters are being killed or when villains slowly walk away.

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Originally Posted by Isala

Thank you for this, OP. It's nice to have a rebuttal to all the people defending DT because we just don't like "not being the main character".

Having proof that basically shows that the literal bloody point of the game is for the WoL to be the main character is great.

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Then stop playing. Vote with your wallet. Sure, you could still keep playing and write forum post after forum post, but what Square ultimately looks at are their metrics. If they see that people are unhappy with the story, but still play this game, they won't really bother to change anything.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

Then stop playing. Vote with your wallet. Sure, you could still keep playing and write forum post after forum post, but what Square ultimately looks at are their metrics. If they see that people are unhappy with the story, but still play this game, they won't really bother to change anything.

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Some of us can't unsub yet. I have 30 days left because I had to buy a gamecard due to the broken payment system. If I knew the expac would be this bad, I wouldn't have bothered but that's what happens when you get false advertisement.

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Originally Posted by ViaDesperare

Some of us can't unsub yet. I have 30 days left because I had to buy a gamecard due to the broken payment system. If I knew the expac would be this bad, I wouldn't have bothered but that's what happens when you get false advertisement.

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I've considered cancelling my sub, and it still might happen, but I don't wanna lose my medium house and I actually enjoy the new raid content. I think the Alliance Raid patch will be what determines whether or not I go.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

Then stop playing. Vote with your wallet. Sure, you could still keep playing and write forum post after forum post, but what Square ultimately looks at are their metrics. If they see that people are unhappy with the story, but still play this game, they won't really bother to change anything.

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Let me share with you one of my favorite moment in one of my most favorite TV show:

- Doctor 1: you're treat and back to normal.
- Patient (a presidential candidate): good enough to run?
- Doctor 1 : why? You're not gonna win.
- Doctor 2: why not!?
- Patient: know what? I gonna run!
- Doctor 2: good for you!
- Doctor 1: why? What's the point?
- Patient: so you think the only way to make a difference ... is to win every single time?


I hope you're smart enough to understand that last question.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

Then stop playing. Vote with your wallet. Sure, you could still keep playing and write forum post after forum post, but what Square ultimately looks at are their metrics. If they see that people are unhappy with the story, but still play this game, they won't really bother to change anything.

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Yeah, that doesn't work either. Look at Forspoken. Nobody wanted that, very few people bought it, but SE said, what if that, but Wuk Lamat.

Here's the source by the way: Link

And a archive, just in case.

The last sentence is either a mistranslation or changed his mind because we nod all the time and so do other characters.

As for the main character thing, we still are because Wuk Lamat wouldn't have managed any of this without us. They just wanted her to have a significant role/contribution so that they can say she did all the feats Gulool Ja Ja wanted and so she played a part in fighting her main rival, as opposed to being like Minfilia in ARR.

Ultimately it boils down to whether you value a party experience or a solo experience in the game's narrative/story. Yoship got burnt hard with FFXVI, it was a solo experience and it got crushed by the quintinssential party-based narrative game known as Baldur's Gate 3.

We were the "main character" in endwalker and if I rememeber correctly it also got a mixed reception.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

Ultimately it boils down to whether you value a party experience or a solo experience in the game's narrative/story. Yoship got burnt hard with FFXVI, it was a solo experience and it got crushed by the quintinssential party-based narrative game known as Baldur's Gate 3.

We were the "main character" in endwalker and if I rememeber correctly it also got a mixed reception.

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I feel like the real difference was the other characters. Whether we or Wuk Lamat are the "main" character, the writing for most of the side characters was abysmal in DT. We didn't overshadow anyone in Endwalker like Wuk did in DT. I'm reminded of one of the best moments in Endwalker; Urianger and Moenbryda's parents. We were just an observer there as well. In DT, the scions showed no personality whatsoever, and the good character moments from the new cast were quickly snuffed out by Wuk's suffocating presence.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

Ultimately it boils down to whether you value a party experience or a solo experience in the game's narrative/story. Yoship got burnt hard with FFXVI, it was a solo experience and it got crushed by the quintinssential party-based narrative game known as Baldur's Gate 3.

We were the "main character" in endwalker and if I rememeber correctly it also got a mixed reception.

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The problems with Endwalker's reception were from the things that had been built up but were largely tossed aside early on(Zodiark and the Empire), pacing issues(which were copied almost completely onto Dawntrail), the Final Days only really manifesting in full in two zones, time travel being presented in a much stupider way than things like Alexander's paradoxes or G'raha, etc. Shadowbringers is what you should be looking at, because the WoL was the focus of almost everything for the better part of 5.0-5.3.

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Originally Posted by Bitmoar

I feel like the real difference was the other characters. Whether we or Wuk Lamat are the "main" character, the writing for most of the side characters was abysmal in DT. We didn't overshadow anyone in Endwalker like Wuk did in DT. I'm reminded of one of the best moments in Endwalker; Urianger and Moenbryda's parents. We were just an observer there as well. In DT, the scions showed no personality whatsoever, and the good character moments from the new cast were quickly snuffed out by Wuk's suffocating presence.

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I beg to differ, in endwalker and shadowbringers everyone was kissing the WOL's ass left and right.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

The problems with Endwalker's reception were from the things that had been built up but were largely tossed aside early on(Zodiark and the Empire), pacing issues(which were copied almost completely onto Dawntrail), the Final Days only really manifesting in full in two zones, time travel being presented in a much stupider way than things like Alexander's paradoxes or G'raha, etc. Shadowbringers is what you should be looking at, because the WoL was the focus of almost everything for the better part of 5.0-5.3.

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You're making my point, whether the main character is the focus or the party is really doesn't matter; it's the other things. The OP post invalidates itself if we go by your post. Your post is highlighting aspects outside of who's the main character.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

I beg to differ, in endwalker and shadowbringers everyone was kissing the WOL's ass left and right.

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Beg to differ with what? I'm confused where you got WoL ass kissing. This sounds like a preemptive reply you thought up in your head for someone's made up response lol

FF14 welcomes player feedback. YoshiP recently stated that where the story goes after DT will depend at least partically on that feedback, so I don't think "unsub" is necessarily the best response to having issues with an MSQ. As for being one of a party, I think it's a stretch to argue that DT explores party dynamics. Even the npcs in the zones describe us as "one of Wuk Lamat's Retainers". Perhaps they should have paid us in ventures. Shadowbringers and Endwalker played out with the WoL and their party - the Scions/Emet/Hythlodaeus/Meteion etc - in a way that was more satisfying for some of us.

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Originally Posted by Mirikh

FF14 welcomes player feedback. YoshiP recently stated that where the story goes after DT will depend at least partically on that feedback, so I don't think "unsub" is necessarily the best response to having issues with an MSQ.

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I hope to gods that's true. Wuk Lamat should be entirely forgotten without any more appearances or references starting from 7.1. Or perhaps she could have a "happy little accident" with her axe so that we'd know for sure she will not be lurking in background ready to show up like an abusive ex as soon as the player starts to feel relaxed and hopeful again.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

Then stop playing. Vote with your wallet. Sure, you could still keep playing and write forum post after forum post, but what Square ultimately looks at are their metrics. If they see that people are unhappy with the story, but still play this game, they won't really bother to change anything.

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I am so tired of seeing this take in every single thread complaining about Dawntrail MSQ. First of all, many of us play for more than just the MSQ, but we still care about the story and want it to be good. The MSQ is what I started playing this game for, but its the group content that made me stick around. I've made friends here, real friends, some of whom I've met with IRL and talk to every day because of this game. This is my community. And maybe it sounds corny, but since the lockdowns in 2020 this game is also my home. It was there for me during some really scary and unprecedented times and brought me so much joy and comfort. If I was just some casual gamer passing through and didn't care about the game much, I probably would unsub. I'm still here because I DO care, quite a lot, and even if only a tiny fraction of feedback gets seen I want to add my voice to that chorus. If the game gets bad enough, I will unsub, as hard as it would be, but until then I want to support the content that is still good while calling on CBU3 to do better with the story, because I know they can, I've seen it before.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...039&height=576

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"Well ackhooly we are Azim and we should be doing the chores that emet said, we are diplomatics *pushes glasses up nose* the story isn't about us and you're entitled to think it is #WukLamatRulez ☝️(⌐⊙_⊙)"

It makes sense that the people of Tural wouldn't really know who the WoL is, most people in Eorzea know the WoL's name and reputation, but they probably don't even recognize them when they see them, which they do occasionally abuse to have us do menial tasks before the NPC figures out who you are... So it makes sense that people on a different continent across the ocean don't know about the WoL, despite having literally saved the entire universe.

But that's not the issue, the problem with DT is that the WoL is barely in the story, they're not really present in the story at all. The only time I actually felt like I was playing a character in the story of DT was Shaaloani.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

It makes sense that the people of Tural wouldn't really know who the WoL is, most people in Eorzea know the WoL's name and reputation, but they probably don't even recognize them when they see them, which they do occasionally abuse to have us do menial tasks before the NPC figures out who you are... So it makes sense that people on a different continent across the ocean don't know about the WoL, despite having literally saved the entire universe.

But that's not the issue, the problem with DT is that the WoL is barely in the story, they're not really present in the story at all. The only time I actually felt like I was playing a character in the story of DT was Shaaloani.

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You bring up another issue that bothered me. Was the End of Days only centered on places we've visited before? Seems pretty convenient. I get that some random Lizard person on the street wouldn't recognize us, but you think there'd at least be throwaway lines. "Oh we're still recovering from the monsters that were attacking." or Galool Ja Ja thanking us once he found out who exactly we are. It could've been written into the story in interesting ways. Zoraal Ja could've seen us as an actual threat once he understood who we were instead of a stupid afterthought line about us "Being dangerous." That could've made him more desperate to beat us and Wuk. DT was so many missed opportunities for character development and interactions beyond making the story revolve around Poochie.

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

You bring up another issue that bothered me. Was the End of Days only centered on places we've visited before? Seems pretty convenient. I get that some random Lizard person on the street wouldn't recognize us, but you think there'd at least be throwaway lines. "Oh we're still recovering from the monsters that were attacking." or Galool Ja Ja thanking us once he found out who exactly we are. It could've been written into the story in interesting ways. Zoraal Ja could've seen us as an actual threat once he understood who we were instead of a stupid afterthought line about us "Being dangerous." That could've made him more desperate to beat us and Wuk. DT was so many missed opportunities for character development and interactions beyond making the story revolve around Poochie.

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Well there were some throwaway lines about a "Great Storm" with the Hanu Hanu at the very start of DT, which may have been the Final Days as they wouldn't have had the knowledge on what was actually happening... but it does very much feel like the writers forgot the Final Days stuff happened.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

the problem with DT is that the WoL is barely in the story, they're not really present in the story at all. The only time I actually felt like I was playing a character in the story of DT was Shaaloani.

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This, so much this! If you total up the amount of time that the WoL got a cool moment in each of the previous expansions, in total, each expansion has like 15-20 minutes of cutscenes showing the WoL doing cool things. Yet in the 21 Twelve-forsaken hours of cutscenes in Dawntrail, we don't even get the customary 15 minutes. And people try to paint people who don't like this as the one with main character syndrome.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Well there were some throwaway lines about a "Great Storm" with the Hanu Hanu at the very start of DT, which may have been the Final Days as they wouldn't have had the knowledge on what was actually happening... but it does very much feel like the writers forgot the Final Days stuff happened.

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It was pretty vague as to whether or not that was the End of Days though, especially because I don't remember them talking about their friends and family turning into monsters, which is unfortunate because I think the story needs a little time to deal with post end-of-days. The Hanu Hanu zone could've been about cleaning up some remaining monsters in the swamp and helping them finish repairs from the End of Days instead of some contrived story about a boat ritual where the guy who made the boat knew exactly what it was for, but instead of telling his friends to help solve their problem, decided to keep the information to himself so he could divulge it to Wuk.

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

I don't think we necessarily have to be the "main character" at all times

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I think that this is probably where a lot of the argument kind of stems from: We DO have to be the main character, but the story doesn't have to be about us. You see this in a lot of media all the time once the main character's story arc is done. The main character is present and their actions have weight, they are VERY much the driving force in the story, but the story itself might be about a new companion, or the struggles of a different area. This isn't the easiest thing to accomplish, but it's the type of thing that I'd expect out of a studio of professionals. The problem is that Wuk Lamat is both the main character and the primary subject matter of the story. This is why she feels horrendously overexposed.

Think about how much more intriguing the story would have been if we were offering our own adventures and experiences as examples that Wuk Lamat drew examples from. How much more impactful lessons would be if we, the character, tried to warn Wuk Lamat about being too trusting of others and how that lesson would be fully realized with Zoraal Ja's betrayal, how much more impactful it would be if we were a true mentor and admonished questionable behavior instead of being a cheerleader all the time. How much more earned it would be if we were the ones who came to help Wuk Lamat in the end instead of her suddenly gaining an asspull power-up. How amazing it would have been if Alisae and Alphinaud mirrored the decision making process of Gulool Ja Ja's heads of Resolve and Reason, helping Wuk Lamat realize the importance of why both heads made her father an excellent ruler, and through fully realized characterizations ultimately helped inspire Wuk Lamat to continue the tradition to pick Koana as the second Dawn Servant. How heartfelt it would have felt if Krile's story about her birth parents were fully fleshed out and had a bonding moment with Wuk Lamat about losing parental figures.

The problem with the main story is lost agency, and feeling like more of a spectator than involved. This is kind of doubled down on by the lack of actual gameplay within the storytelling as well as the absolutely egregious level of 'tell don't show.'

It's fine for the story to be about Wuk Lamat, but we still have to be the main character and not just watching events unfold on the sideline.

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

I don't think we necessarily have to be the "main character" at all times as far as the world is concerned,

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No we don't, and ironically the Final Fantasy series is not stranger to this kind of story:

- Final Fantasy Tactic: Ramza isn't the main character or heroes of the universe, but he helped move the story along. So like ... he's the MC from a gameplay perspective, but not from a narrative perspective.

- Final Fantasy X: Yuna was the central story pillar, although Tidus's story only start weaving in more at the end.

- Final Fantasy XII: probably the best example, Vaan's role as a character is not really relevant to the story, he's just there to show us the story. In any other games he would be an NPC.

You also see it in other games: Dragon Quest V, Xenoblade Chronicle X, Fire Emblem Awakening ..etc..

The main difference between those games and DT is ... they don't have bad writing.

This is why I always says DT shouldn't be excused because it's a new story, WoL taking a back seat or whatever. The problem is not what DT's story is about, or what it is trying to do. The problem is ... it just sucks at whatever it is trying to do.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

Then stop playing. Vote with your wallet. Sure, you could still keep playing and write forum post after forum post, but what Square ultimately looks at are their metrics. If they see that people are unhappy with the story, but still play this game, they won't really bother to change anything.

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You give up easy when the going gets rough, don't you? They messed up with DT on the story by a LARGE margin, though it's really the first time they've stumbled this hard. Sure Lyse and Stormblood was a hiccup too, but not nearly as bad. Even if you hated stormblood, this is what, 2 bad Expacs over the 10 years with twice as many good ones? Just because they stumble now and then, doesn't mean you ditch them. It's only after they do it consistently do you say "I've had enough."

I don't need to be the main character that does everything and has no flaws, I just want to be a character in the story.

We would not have won in Shadowbringers without our allies, yet Ardbert didn't steal our thunder in the same way Wuk Lamat did. Alisaie and Alphinaud had dialog in Shadowbringers and actually contributed to the plot. We had inn scenes where we could connect with a chosen character instead of talking to Wuk Lamat more (shout out to Estinien jumping off a balcony.) Endwalker at least pretended we were helping in the invasion of the secondary city in a rather unintentionally funny scene while we twiddle our thumbs and nod at the invasion of the Dawntrail main city and death of a major supporting character.

Yoshi-p's reference to Dragon Quest is worth picking up on here. Main entry Final Fantasy games don't make you create your own player avatar, outside of the MMOs. That intrinsically makes the writing style different than other games in the series, because you need to engage with the player avatar directly. You can have other characters play major parts, but you have to always return back to the player as the anchoring point for the story.

If you want to understand why Shadowbringers had such a huge impact on the series, a lot of this comes from Ishikawa balancing the Warrior of Light as both her creation and as your own. Azem is the interface between the two, a mantle that you can don to 'clothe yourself in the fiction'. Emet-Selch isn't just any villain, either. He's a old friend straight out of your past, gone astray, which makes your clash deeply personal. Probably one of the greatest scenes in the history of the game is when he sees a flicker in Azem in you after merging with Ardbert's soul. And then you, not anyone else, are asked what your personal choice of one-liner is before you engage in battle.

And note that Shadowbringers isn't entirely about the Warrior of Light, either. G'raha plays a fairly central part as the Exarch, and we get plenty of scenes about his heroism on the First. But he's primarily there to support you in your fight. He still shows up to help you and summon allies so that you can fight Emet, but he certainly doesn't jump through a dimensional rift and start soloing Hades while you're in the process of transforming into a Sineater. 'Hadees! 'Listen to mee!'

I think that if you're going to be a writer for a long-running serial work, you need to be respectful of the efforts that writers have put before you (especially in a serial work that's been running for 10+ years). That means maintaining a degree of continuity with the style that the work uses, even if it isn't what you're used to. Rewriting the story on your own terms is not going to go down well with the audience. Relegating the main character to 'Vaan status' while you introduce in your own protagonist is going to feel jarring, simply because that's not the writing style that was previously used. It would be one thing if Hiroi was creating a new entry in Final Fantasy from scratch. But this isn't a story that Hiroi has written from the ground up, it's one that he's inherited from better writers. There's an expectation on him that he do it justice the way that his predecessors have before him.

Another point worth noting is that this story traditionally used dialogue options as a way of engaging the player and giving a personal context to their story. Sometimes having completed a specific side-story or be playing on a specific job gives you special insights. If you're not feeling a particular scene, you can throw in a joke about Moogles to introduce in a bit of levity, or even express your disapproval. It also makes discussing or watching other people's playthroughs more interesting, because you can compare choices and it injects a certain degree of personal flavor to an individual playthrough.

It's not like this is a terribly difficult thing, and it's clear that whoever wrote the Arcadion storyline at least understands this, because it felt like a definite return to form. But for whatever reason, the MSQ seems to see this system as a nuisance and offers only the most superficial options, when it does at all.

It's really odd seeing the difference in execution, because while the Arcadion story is relatively simple, it feels orders of magnitude more compelling than the Dawntrail MSQ. You don't have to agree with Yoshi-p's commentary that was linked in the OP, but it does explain a lot about why FFXIV was historically successful in its storytelling.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's not like this is a terribly difficult thing, and it's clear that whoever wrote the Arcadion storyline at least understands this, because it felt like a definite return to form. But for whatever reason, the MSQ seems to see this system as a nuisance and offers only the most superficial options, when it does at all.

It's really odd seeing the difference in execution, because while the Arcadion story is relatively simple, it feels orders of magnitude more compelling than the Dawntrail MSQ. You don't have to agree with Yoshi-p's commentary that was linked in the OP, but it does explain a lot about why FFXIV was historically successful in its storytelling.

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It's wild how much Arcadion feels like Final Fantasy XIV in a way that the MSQ just doesn't. It's the most basic and shallow of stories but I swear it's far more engaging.

Question - when is that quote from?

Is it recent? Or is it from years ago, before we saved the star several times over, and one of the increasing concerns was the inevitable "constant upping of the stakes" that resulted in people wanting something where we weren't constantly hailed as the almighty savior of the universe and so on? (And guess what - we still ended up being the MC, going everywhere Wuk Lumat goes the first half of the story, and then being "the one" to do the big stuff in the second half of the story because of who we are...)

It's a relatively simple and straightforward story with our wol having clear motives however, it has something that the msq doesn't and that it's characters interact with one another more frequency. If we look at Wuk for a moment we don't really get to see her interact with anyone outside of the right of succession trials, hell you could remove the twins and Krile for the first half of the expansion and nothing would change and even Erenville doesn't say much despite him and Wuk lamat being childhood friends. I get this is her story but l can't help but feel that her story got sabotage by the fact the writers don't want to put her in a stressful situation or have her values be pushed back the others. For example, would the part of the storyline where we make tacos be more interesting if we stayed with Kona or if Wuk Lamat got paired up with Zoraa ja or Bakool ja ja. Giving her an opportunity to finally try to understand those one of those two actual motives.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Question - when is that quote from?

Is it recent? Or is it from years ago, before we saved the star several times over, and one of the increasing concerns was the inevitable "constant upping of the stakes" that resulted in people wanting something where we weren't constantly hailed as the almighty savior of the universe and so on? (And guess what - we still ended up being the MC, going everywhere Wuk Lumat goes the first half of the story, and then being "the one" to do the big stuff in the second half of the story because of who we are...)

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The problem with this team imo is that when they hear you want low stakes, they automatically default to doing something they don't realize is extremely boring and repetitive.

Speak to Wuk Lamat yet again.

And I like Wuk Lamat btw. There's just no doubt they mishandled both her and WoL, irrespective of us being the MC or not

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Originally Posted by Striker44

And guess what - we still ended up being the MC, going everywhere Wuk Lumat goes the first half of the story, and then being "the one" to do the big stuff in the second half of the story because of who we are...

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Did I miss something or does "going everywhere someone else does" not feel like the MC at all? Rather feels like a Watson to someone's Sherlock. Sure, the books are written from Watson's perspective, but you are kidding yourself if you think Watson's the main character.

As for being "the one" to do the big stuff... did we play the same game? Whatever version you played, I wanna play that, cuz the last trial in my version was horrible. I was playing with friends and we just stopped doing DPS when the thing happened. Guess what? "We" cleared it.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

The problem with this team imo is that when they hear you want low stakes, they automatically default to doing something they don't realize is extremely boring and repetitive.

Speak to Wuk Lamat yet again.

And I like Wuk Lamat btw. There's just no doubt they mishandled both her and WoL, irrespective of us being the MC or not

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This. I honestly think that Wuk Lamat's fans should be angry at the treatment she got. Her story is incredibly rushed, allowing no time at all for any nuance. It feels like the writer was told that they can make 1 character for 1 expansion, nothing more, and so they desperately crammed in so much of her stuffs. Had she been allowed time to grow in multiple expansions like our Scions did, I'm 99% sure people would've liked her.

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Originally Posted by Isala

Thank you for this, OP. It's nice to have a rebuttal to all the people defending DT because we just don't like "not being the main character".

Having proof that basically shows that the literal bloody point of the game is for the WoL to be the main character is great.

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You know, changing your opinions is a sign of growth. Digging out some old post from 10 years or more ago is only good for nostalgia ;)

A character doesn't need to have the spotlight on them 100% of the time to be the main character. Other characters also need to be developed and that means putting the spotlight on them occasionally. As long as the main character takes part in the development of the other characters, they haven't lost their position as main character.

Was it wrong to put a spotlight on Wuk Lamat this expansion? No, since the first half of the story was about her attempt to win the throne and the second half about her attempts to protect her people after getting the throne and learning of a threat. The WoL was still very present with an integral role in the story arc. The WoL still remains the main character for the game.

The problem with the story was they mishandled Wuk Lamat's character development. They created a Mary Sue, realized they had created a Mary Sue, decide to slap on some poorly chosen random flaws so she wouldn't seem like a Mary Sue (still didn't work) and then had most of those flaws disappear, reappear and disappear again for no logical reason. Even worse to me, they gave her a medical condition then used it only as a way to mock the character instead of as something that could have been used in her character development.

I see people point at the voice acting for the character but the voice acting was actually well done considering what they were given to work with - a badly written character with some rather cringy dialog at times.

As others have said, more should have been done to flesh out Wuk's character development instead of making that development mirror Wuk Evu's behavior ("oh I've done wrong how terrible of me" "it was fine, forget it" "okay, forgotten").

The MSQ really should have been 2 separate stories - a 7.0 MSQ developing Wuk's character with the WoL's assistance, then 7.1-?.? where the WoL is brought back to Tural to help investigate the Alexandria mystery. Shoving them together into one story did neither part justice. It was the same mistake made with Endwalker's story but at least that had almost a decade of backstory to lean on. This one needed to be able to stand on its own but end up doing a lot of wobbling for lack of support.