Less scripted fights more online engagement

Less scripted fights more online engagement

Playing through trails and fights more than once is a wasted time and boring

What about stopping scripted fights at least 50% just let us have online moments that can be unique each fight

There's WOW for that kind of gameplay. XIV fights are choreographed dances.

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Originally Posted by FuwafuwaMii

There's WOW for that kind of gameplay. XIV fights are choreographed dances.

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Never played WoW and
I like dances but I like playing online games for obvious reasons

Maybe some other MMO would offer more of what you're looking after when it comes to gameplay.
FFXIV is extremely scripted when it comes to boss fights. A person don't really need to be that good as long as they can memorize the patters.

Personally I play FFXIV when I simply want to chill while playing an MMO, FFXIV is a great option for that.
I have other games and MMOs I play when I want to feel more engaged while playing.

The benefit of scripted dances is feeling like you've "mastered" them and become good at them. At first you struggle with it but then you learn the script and can optimize it and say you "know the fight" and "have it on farm" etc. In contrast, if it's all random, can you be quite so sure that you have it "on farm" when an unfortunate combination could lead to a wipe?

That said, there is still RNG within specific phases in the script. And occasionally that happens where, despite everyone mostly having it on farm, there is a "cursed pattern" that just gets a lot of people regardless.

Tbh, I just don't mind it being scripted. I think RNG within specific phases is a fine compromise. But more than that, I prefer them to be actually punishing ie. wipe if you aren't using Reprisal and tank mit. Just actually force me to use my kit or wipe in normal content is all I want. This has felt better in the Dawntrail content so far but it's still early and I don't expect it'll stand up to item level increases over time.

go join a endgame contents PF, there're already other 7 unscripted elements in the fight and that's more than enough 'online moment' for me

Honestly, I'm very burnt out on XIV's synchronized swimming style combat--to the point I haven't even bothered with the extremes this expansion.

But it's about the only thing the game can handle with their netcode.

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Originally Posted by FuwafuwaMii

There's WOW for that kind of gameplay. XIV fights are choreographed dances.

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This wasn't always the case- or not necessarily. There are degrees to which fights are scripted, but the Avatar Savage is one of the least scripted fights in the game.
I still think that fight should be studied on ways to add reactive gameplay to XIV, because it proves that, to some extend, it's possible.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

This wasn't always the case- or not necessarily. There are degrees to which fights are scripted, but the Avatar Savage is one of the least scripted fights in the game.
I still think that fight should be studied on ways to add reactive gameplay to XIV, because it proves that, to some extend, it's possible.

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It's hard to design fights around quick reactions when the game has a 100ms delay built in as a feature, not including how much ping people might have. It's likely part of why they decided to make fights so tightly scripted.

What is an ‘online’ moment / engagement? I don’t understand what the request is

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Originally Posted by Connor

What is an ‘online’ moment / engagement? I don’t understand what the request is

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Idunno honestly.
But seeing how it's in the same sentence as "Less scripted fights" I assume it just means more randomness that people can't really plan ahead what might exactly happen.
So that players have to pay more attention and react accordingly what happens on the spot instead of simply following set patterns.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The benefit of scripted dances is feeling like you've "mastered" them and become good at them. At first you struggle with it but then you learn the script and can optimize it and say you "know the fight" and "have it on farm" etc. In contrast, if it's all random, can you be quite so sure that you have it "on farm" when an unfortunate combination could lead to a wipe?

That said, there is still RNG within specific phases in the script. And occasionally that happens where, despite everyone mostly having it on farm, there is a "cursed pattern" that just gets a lot of people regardless.

Tbh, I just don't mind it being scripted. I think RNG within specific phases is a fine compromise. But more than that, I prefer them to be actually punishing ie. wipe if you aren't using Reprisal and tank mit. Just actually force me to use my kit or wipe in normal content is all I want. This has felt better in the Dawntrail content so far but it's still early and I don't expect it'll stand up to item level increases over time.

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RNG is almost none existing it is like 5 to 10 % at max

I enjoy dancing but when it become 100% scripted it is just become boring

There is should some scripted phases and some have randomeness

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

In contrast, if it's all random, can you be quite so sure that you have it "on farm" when an unfortunate combination could lead to a wipe?

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That wouldn't be hard to design out, unless random is pulling any mechanic out of nowhere. The same limitations that players have like cooldowns, charges, MP, etc, can be applied to AI enemies to prevent them from doing anything overly crazy.

On the subject of scripted fights themselves, I think it's a weakpoint of the game. It contributes to balancing, homogenization, and replayability issues. All that matters is DPS and it becomes easy to solve a given fight. While I doubt scripted content will ever be completely removed I'd love to at least see some part of the game that approaches combat differently.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Less scripted fights more online engagement

Playing through trails and fights more than once is a wasted time and boring

What about stopping scripted fights at least 50% just let us have online moments that can be unique each fight

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Agree with you, it would make doing the same fight over and over a little less boring, that being said the mechanic would have to be a little more forgiving because there is a major difference between reacting to an attack and following a set of patterns.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

It's hard to design fights around quick reactions when the game has a 100ms delay built in as a feature, not including how much ping people might have. It's likely part of why they decided to make fights so tightly scripted.

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Yes, but that's not the only way to do it.
I'm going to stick to T8S because that's what I was thinking about. The Avatar basically has a bunch of towers with different effects that you need to soak- which gives you a vuln- and mines/adds spawning at timed intervals. The adds can crit with their autos (it becomes a tankbuster, basically). There's also some allagan fields and aoes/enumerations (the missiles), but those only compound on the previous mechanics, so they're not too relevant. Some mechanics are HP % skips, some are timed. So a healer knows an add will spawn, and knows it might do two tbs in a row. Exactly when, if it's one, two or none, however, aren't known beforehand. Because the order in which you resolve the towers (some are aoe, some are healing down, some spawn the add) is up to the group, and because the boss has timed tbs/aoes, you need to work around that uncertainty. You need to either keep a resource for a tb that will never happen, or use them and then reactively deal with it if it does happen. The timing of actually taking the towers, who gets the vulns and how many are also entirely up to the group. Even the same group/strat will see some variation between pulls, and you have a lot of liberty in how you resolve the encounter, being able to tune it to your comp and strat.
So, not only is the way to resolve the mechanics not fully scripted- you can vary how you resolve it- the actual incoming damage has a lot of variability due to crit autos and desync between timed mechanics and HP % mechanics.
The feel of this fight in particular is very different from most modern encounters, and I think XIV would benefit from leaning more into this type of design. It's definitely possible with their current engine because this is an ARR fight.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

RNG is almost none existing it is like 5 to 10 % at max

I enjoy dancing but when it become 100% scripted it is just become boring

There is should some scripted phases and some have randomeness

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Nah. You only want "random" dice rolls when it means the difference between doing 10000pts of damage and 10200pts of damage. That still can't be a huge window either otherwise you may as well throw away crit entirely. (Which is traditionally a "luck" stat)

When you start making monsters and bosses just choose attacks at random, what you get are people complaining that the content is too hard because it can't be learned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R87x98Q_LHg&t=18650s
Former Bizzard-WoW employee basically spells out this choreography fights is the games best feature.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Less scripted fights more online engagement

Playing through trails and fights more than once is a wasted time and boring

What about stopping scripted fights at least 50% just let us have online moments that can be unique each fight

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Just play a different game that you like more.

Funny thing is, if you try to play reactively, the server tick infrastructure kicks your ass lol. It always gets me when I come back after a long break

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Originally Posted by Phaty

Funny thing is, if you try to play reactively, the server tick infrastructure kicks your ass lol. It always gets me when I come back after a long break

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I see this as a game issue not mine

Fix server tick

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Nah. You only want "random" dice rolls when it means the difference between doing 10000pts of damage and 10200pts of damage. That still can't be a huge window either otherwise you may as well throw away crit entirely. (Which is traditionally a "luck" stat)

When you start making monsters and bosses just choose attacks at random, what you get are people complaining that the content is too hard because it can't be learned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R87x98Q_LHg&t=18650s
Former Bizzard-WoW employee basically spells out this choreography fights is the games best feature.

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designing games to be fun and replayable is more important than taking feedback from people who play sims games

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Originally Posted by FuwafuwaMii

There's WOW for that kind of gameplay. XIV fights are choreographed dances.

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Funnily enough, Barb EX, first boss of one of the new expert dungeons, and M2 have their moments that feel a little more WoW-like where movement and dodging is a lot more hectic and less predictable. They still have structured phases and dance moments, but they also have great moments that keep you on your toes. Those are my favorite types of fights in FF14 outside of Ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

I see this as a game issue not mine

Fix server tick

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Oh I wholeheartedly agree

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

Funnily enough, Barb EX, first boss of one of the new expert dungeons, and M2 have their moments that feel a little more WoW-like where movement and dodging is a lot more hectic and less predictable. They still have structured phases and dance moments, but they also have great moments that keep you on your toes. Those are my favorite types of fights in FF14 outside of Ultimate.

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Ifrit and Garuda savage also is one of the best fights I have ever experience in FFXIV until that day I will never forget the choas that I went through

when the game was good..

The reason fights in FF14 is structured is not only because the fight is structured, it's because the whole system is structure. The strict and long rotation, combo breaker, melee positional, 2 minutes burst window and DPS check that requires certain level of optimization ... none of that lend itself to a random fight even with zero ping. You'll need a much more nonrestrictive and free flow combat system to allow freestyling fight.

In short: they will need to change not only the fight design, but the whole system of the game. In another word: not gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

The reason fights in FF14 is structured is not only because the fight is structured, it's because the whole system is structure. The strict and long rotation, combo breaker, melee positional, 2 minutes burst window and DPS check that requires certain level of optimization ... none of that lend itself to a random fight even with zero ping. You'll need a much more nonrestrictive and free flow combat system to allow freestyling fight.

In short: they will need to change not only the fight design, but the whole system of the game. In another word: not gonna happen.

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we didn't request hard changes in the game..

we ask for baby steps.. just make things have life.. let bosses have decision making.. everything feels scripted dull and unplayable for more than few times

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Less scripted fights more online engagement

Playing through trails and fights more than once is a wasted time and boring

What about stopping scripted fights at least 50% just let us have online moments that can be unique each fight

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I agree with this, also upping auto attack damage to force more healer engagement.

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Originally Posted by FuwafuwaMii

There's WOW for that kind of gameplay. XIV fights are choreographed dances.

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Wow doesn't offer this either.
I have raided in both, and people exaggerate when they say wow fights are different every time. Wow fights are the exact same mechanics every time, with timers/health percentage breakpoints just random people hit with mechanics (just like ff14 shock and awe) each time.

I like raids how they are, but I would love to see this implemented to the new field operation instead of having another FATE farming zone

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Originally Posted by Tunda

we didn't request hard changes in the game..

we ask for baby steps.. just make things have life.. let bosses have decision making.. everything feels scripted dull and unplayable for more than few times

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You already have baby steps, fights are no longer 100% exactly the same but have some random element like phase order in them now, and even THAT isn't always popular when it mess up things like 2 minutes window.

What you are asking for is not baby steps just because you're thinking it's baby steps. That kind of change is not minor and will require large structural change no matter how much you wish otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

You already have baby steps, fights are no longer 100% exactly the same but have some random element like phase order in them now, and even THAT isn't always popular when it mess up things like 2 minutes window.

What you are asking for is not baby steps just because you're thinking it's baby steps. That kind of change is not minor and will require large structural change no matter how much you wish otherwise.

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not my issue if it requires 1 million dollar I am a customer I say what I want

i dont care how billions this will cost.. I care about game being fun nothing else

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Originally Posted by Tunda

not my issue if it requires 1 million dollar I am a customer I say what I want

i dont care how billions this will cost.. I care about game being fun nothing else

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Nobody said you can't or care. Just informing you how unreasonable your request is. And if you don't care about that ... well, sometime shouting pointlessly into the void does make people feel better. So have fun.

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Originally Posted by FuwafuwaMii

There's WOW for that kind of gameplay. XIV fights are choreographed dances.

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There's this thing known as "Variety". FF14 should try it some time.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

There's this thing known as "Variety". FF14 should try it some time.

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So, if that's what you believe, can you then recommend me some MMO that will offer such "Variety" within itself? I had played literally every single one out there, and I can't say I remember any MMO that can offer much difference what beyond its core.

I think people don't really understand how insanely complex the design of a battle system in any game is. The dev have a vision of the kind of games they want, and conceive a system tailor specifically for it. So unless they wanted to create a system that can do more than one style of battle and invest twice or thrice the resource to develop it from the beginning, that won't be a change you see 10 years into development.

That's why every time some one make this kind of demand, they always bring in example from other games with a different style. You basically ask one game (FF14) to imitate and provide you with not just what it has, but also what other games also offer at the same time. Just ... stop and think for a minute and I hope you realize how ... kinda insane the request is. 'cause like I said, if anyone have an example of one games that can provide multiple combat style in one package, I'm all ears.

That's why if you want a variety of style, you play a variety of games.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

It's hard to design fights around quick reactions when the game has a 100ms delay built in as a feature, not including how much ping people might have. It's likely part of why they decided to make fights so tightly scripted.

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Remember dealing with Titan Ex back in ARR. Due to the server placement, if the aoe appeared under you, you were dead.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Remember dealing with Titan Ex back in ARR. Due to the server placement, if the aoe appeared under you, you were dead.

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That wasn't exactly true. If you were playing with terrible latency, sure. I don't think I ever got hit by landslides, but then, I also wasn't playing from across the ocean.

Boss fights in just about every mmo is scripted. Its more noticable in FF14 cause of telegraphs, bosses taking a stationary position and obivous animations.

I find that people that people that ask for "less scripted fights" don't understand what it means. Everything is scripted, even RNG follows a script as it's just a branching path. A difficult Elden Ring boss is entirely scripted. A Goomba walking in one direction until it falls off the edge or hits a wall is following a script. What it really comes down to is how well that script designed. Some bosses in FF14 can be a little too predictable due to their script, I'll give you that.

Now do you want things to be more random? How random is enough and how much is too much? It's nice having things being not too predictable as that makes the fight kind of boring once you solved it, but too random can sometimes give you situations that are either extremely easy to deal with or nearly impossible.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

That wasn't exactly true. If you were playing with terrible latency, sure. I don't think I ever got hit by landslides, but then, I also wasn't playing from across the ocean.

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In EU that was 100% true. If you didn't move before they appeared, you were dead.

I feel like this was something they were experimenting a little with variants. I would love to see fights with more mechanics that were randomized a bit.

Instead of fights that were just:

A -> B -> C -> D -> E -> F -> G (repeat)

I'd love it if the mechs swapped places a bit or branched off into other mechs. So A could move onto B, but maybe could also move onto F. When F fires, it could be D or G. This allows for fights to be mostly scripted in regards to the mechanics themselves, but when they pop up changes the fight almost entirely.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

So, if that's what you believe, can you then recommend me some MMO that will offer such "Variety" within itself? I had played literally every single one out there, and I can't say I remember any MMO that can offer much difference what beyond its core.

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Don't look at MMO's for variety, because every time a MMO tries to come out as an action game, it eventually has to be watered back down into an ATB (active turn based) game due to North America's rubbish internet.

I've seen this plenty with Japanese and Korean games where the game seems to run smooth as butter in Korea, due to players being like like less than 20ms of latency from each other, but then you get to north America and it's not unusual to have 150ms, and then Australians and players in EU playing on North American servers with their friends have to deal with 300ms latency.

The reason a lot of MMORPG's use "attack patterns" comes back to allowing players to play together. I'm sure you've encountered players in the game who seem to get clipped by AOE's all the time, because their client is likely behind by several frames. That's why the current DT content with the rapid AOE's is kind of pushing it. It's likely much more doable in Japan on Japanese connections, but in North America, those AOE's appear for a split second and give the impression you're not supposed to avoid them, but instead already be standing where you'll avoid it. Even when you play with the trusts, you have to second-guess where the trusts are going to stand, but they ALWAYS stand in the same place for that phase.

If the game was always random, the trusts wouldn't work at all.