I want to preface this honest question by the fact that this is not a complaint about difficulty. I actually enjoy the re-addition of some modicum of spice to keep things out of residence sleeping territory, notably in endgame dungeons, not that it was much to begin with. I have also been a relatively high end raider since SB and have played since HW extensively.
But since Endwalker I seem to have come facing a specific type of encounter design that has left me extremely frustrated, and that quite frankly makes me feel extremely dumb. I am speaking about encounters where main mechanics are almost entirely based on visual cues to watch for on the arena or the boss (or both), and asking the player to solve it as a visual puzzle within a relatively fast time window. The most egregious example to date for me has been the second Ex Trial in Dawntrail, which is leaning pretty hardcore on that kind of mechanics (the Volok swords, and the moving lines). But other examples can be found everywhere, like the ghost dungeon and its teacup boss (expert), or Superchain Theory in EW, and that obnoxious samurai boss or Statice in Criterion (or a lot of criterion tbh).
I do understand that the game encounters require diversity and variations to please everybody, and that rationally there is nothing saying those mechanics are worse than any other per se, even though they don't really tie in with the jobs or the battle system much, which could pass for a flaw in my view. But my actual problem is that it feels like I've been playing a completely different type of game lately whenever it comes to those, and worse, I am having genuine trouble with them, unlike anything else I've seen before in XIV. There are specific mechanics like the water waves in Rokkon (criterion), Superchain 2, or the moving lines in Everkeep Ex for which my brain genuinely just shuts down and freezes in sheer refusal of dealing with them. I usually excel at tasks where I have time to think things out and I am often one of the first to get to grasp with classic mechanics like High Concept, Pangenesis, Hello World, etc.
However, I've been frustrated to no end with all those visual puzzles slowly creeping into gameplay recently because no matter what I do, I do not seem to get to grasp with them. I still die consistently in the moving lines section of Everkeep Ex unless I follow another player with a dorito above the head, I still can't deal with the teacups of a simple endgame ghost dungeon, and I'm not getting better at it. I genuinely find even those stupid teacups harder to deal with than Classical/Caloric Theory or whatever. It's been an absolute misery to play through so far, while in sheer contrast I've loved the heck out of Valigarmanda Ex.
While I've been excited for the new raids to come, this has shaken a lot of my confidence into dealing with that specific type of mechanic, and I would be lying if I wasn't worried about what's to come in the future.
Am I the only one that's having that problem with those specific types of new mechanics?
Is the game shifting into fast visual puzzles?
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07-20-2024, 09:11 PMValenceIs the game shifting into fast visual puzzles?
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07-21-2024, 01:18 AMTDawnstarYes, because SE removed everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
No more long gearing, no more interesting stats, easy catchup, abundant loot. From that point, the only thing SE can do to increase the game's difficulty is to increase the number and complexity of mechanics. -
07-21-2024, 01:27 AMDarkedone02
Sadly with people who have mental learning disabilities like I do (autism), It's hard for me to think fast to save my life in this game, and if it keeps getting harder and harder, I might have to toss my hat in.
I don't like to die often and become a burden on the party that i am in, and I don't enjoy feeling incompetent, that and how that becomes a victim of toxicity in these games when folks have the focus and mental ready state to want to push for finish and set higher expectations on everyone.
I'm not asking to keep making mechanics harder, I'm saying give people more time to think and move. -
07-21-2024, 01:43 AMyoshinoharuNarratively these types of mechanics are actually the ones that make the most sense. You can (and frankly a lot of players frustratingly do) memorize a fight by rote because the same mechanics happen at the same time consistently. The amount of things that you have to actually react to is very minimal, and you can memorize the fight timeline. This is how, lore-wise, we actually win fights with the echo. Every wipe is just an experience that we're avoiding using the Echo. If you are having trouble reacting to things, I recommend trying to commit the actual fight timeline to memory instead. A lot of players like myself find reacting to things easy because we know before even entering the fight when it's going to happen. If you're feeling like you aren't given enough time to react, the simple solution is to stop reacting and start planning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkedone02
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07-21-2024, 01:49 AMVioletCatastropheGenerally speaking, if this is your issue, you are taking in too much information and the solution is to take in less. Reduce mechanics down to what you need to look for, and what you need to do in response. It will get easier over time. You can also reduce mechanics to simpler forms, which is why raiders constantly make reference to earlier mechanics - with a mindset like 'no need to re-solve this mechanic, it's just a basic protean which I've done multiple times before'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkedone02
In aviation, there is a concept known as task saturation, which occurs when you are taking in the max amount of stuff you can handle, and thus can't handle any more. Solving a mechanic is much harder than executing, so the more work you can do before hand the easier. That task of 'solve and execute' becomes just 'execute'. Can't handle your rotation too? Throw that out during difficult sections, staying alive is better and with time you'll be less overwhelmed and can maybe bring it back in. We've had the normal raids for not even a week. Give it time to develop a familiarity with them and the feeling of being overwhelmed will dissipate with it.
I have autism too, though given the breadth of experiences within that I could hardly say my experience is representative of yours. But I do firmly believe that there are ways to mitigate your issues and let you do the content comfortably regardless. And honestly, if it just means getting hit a bunch and dying more than the better players in your party then who cares tbh. You aren't a burden, so don't think of yourself as one. -
07-21-2024, 02:00 AMNaomishtolaPerhaps you can bring a friend or ask someone in the party to mark themselves with a triangle? (Also commonly refered to as a danger dorito)Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkedone02
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07-21-2024, 02:08 AMPorxiesRCuteI'm also autistic so I feel this. If it helps, so many of these fights are basically choreographed dances. Once you learn what the attack names and telegraphs are, it becomes second nature to react without really having to think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkedone02
Don't worry about failing one or two or even fifty times; practice makes perfect. If your party gets salty about it they're not worth your time anyway. -
07-21-2024, 03:09 AMJinglypocketsThe post is complaining specifically about visual puzzle mechanics -- not the stuff you can just memorize.Quote:
Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute
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07-21-2024, 03:17 AMKrainz
Some of the puzzles you can memorize instead of solving them completely. Vorlok Swords, for instance, if you look at the swords on the platform and they haven't started glowing, you can run to that spot because the sword spots don't overlap. After that is solving the left or right side from the boss that is being hit by the cleave. Over time you can memorize to stand in front of the boss or behind him, see which side he is going to strike with the cleave, and then look at the platforms to run to a sword that isn't glowing. Three steps of memorization but you're not doing that all at once, like someone trying to solve a puzzle with several different pieces of information in one go.
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07-21-2024, 03:34 AMJinglypockets
Agree. I hate the visual puzzle mechanics.
With all of them, there's always a "trick" I have to figure out to be able to solve them quickly, so it ends up just being another memorization mechanic but with more stress (and not the fun kind). -
07-21-2024, 07:33 AMAkonyl
If you've done stuff like High Concept/Pangenesis fine before, I think this may be an issue more with how you approach the mechanics, rather than it being "visual mechanics" specifically that aren't possible for you. Using EX2 Vollok as an example, I could see someone having issues if they looked at the two flashing platforms, tried to mesh the shapes together in their head, and then resolved the mechanic. But a much easier way to do it (for example, but not the only way) is, in my opinion:
- There's only 2 platforms which contain swords in the middle (and each one has them diagonal from each other). Find both of them.
- Pre-position on an inside square, and look at the platform containing that one (one of the two you already identified)
- When he syncs, and the aoe glows go out, if the platform you're looking at isn't glowing, stay still (you found your safe spot already).
- If it is glowing, look at the second platform with a middle sword. If it's glowing, go to the wall (not a corner), if it isn't, move to an adjacent middle square (this will match one of the swords from the second platform)
- adjust diagonally to dodge the cleave as needed (diagonal of your safe spot should also be a safe spot)
In a lot of cases, "visual vomit" type mechanics can be boiled down to a pretty simple flowchart, similar to what you would use for something like high concept / pangenesis / etc. The above may not be the best way for you to think of it, but in general, if a mechanic feels like it's asking you to mentally resolve too many things at once, it helps a lot to break it down into smaller steps. -
07-21-2024, 08:59 AMArohknot really, there is hardly any puzzle mechanic in the game where the solution is not instantly clear, you just need to memorize the pattern and know where to go immediately without thinking about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinglypockets
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07-21-2024, 10:14 AMflowerfairy
I've actually been feeling the same way. Specifically the level 99 trial, the part with 2 sets of swords flying at the same time gets me almost always. I have trouble checking one side's safe spots, and then checking the other side's safe spots, all before the attack goes off.
And even if these types of mechanics actually have some sort of easy cheesy way to instantly figure out the safe spots... What's the point of it then? What is it actually be challenging you to do after you learn it? Managing your job's uptime, and that's about it I guess. It just looks like more fancier safe spot dancing to me. Is that what passes as a "mechanic" now?
Instead of the game challenging your job and your party's composition, it's challenging your mind's ability to quickly comprehend the pattern. If you can't get it you instantly die.
But, like others said, it's not like the game has anything left for the devs to challenge you on. I think this kind of visual clutter is the epitome of the game's shift in fight design in Shadowbringers. It most definitely became more difficult than Endwalker, but more in the sense of "you have 5 seconds to find the safe spot instead of 10". If this expansion's focal point is encounter design, I was really hoping that they would replace the "find the safe spot" part of encounter design... Otherwise I can't see the difference between here and the last 2 years.
I'd honestly be fine with visual clutter if it was designed in a way that it imitates sporadic damage to random party members. Like a couple of "ow dangit"s that don't immediately stop the raid but recovery's still possible, and encouraged. The closest example I can think of is Barbariccia.
But most of the time visual clutter mechanics instantly kills whoever messed up, then the party gets hit with a body check and the raid has to start all over again. Personally I don't enjoy this "vision" of difficulty. And I think this kind of design is what makes Party Finder less enjoyable for both the person who understands the mechanic and the person who doesn't.
I admit I'm not a fast thinker. Maybe I'm just slow and I have to suck it up. But this isn't the kind of direction I'd enjoy in an RPG with tanks and healers and supports. -
07-21-2024, 11:20 AMVioletCatastropheUsing the 99 trial as an example:Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerfairy
Start in a corner. Look at one of the sides. Instead of looking from the swords to your column, look from your column to where the swords are. If you see a sword in the column connected to yours, move one tile to the left/right. Repeat this again. If you've moved twice, you are now safe. If you don't see a sword on the first two tries, you are safe. Turn to face the other set of swords and repeat. If you can solve one side in time, then you'll at most get hit by one sword, and not the overlap of two, and you'll live.
Mechanics like this, that focus on parsing visual information, are intended to feel a little overwhelming, but then get easier as your brain works out a pattern to the chaos and you start to notice similarities. I would genuinely say these fights have very little visual clutter if you have the experience to know what you should and should not look at. FFXIV in general could be a lot better at teaching its playerbase, and I think we are seeing the fruits of that here and there. I think I'd respect the people begging for changes a bit more if they more correctly identified that the game was lacking in the way it teaches the player rather than the content itself being bad.
Generally speaking, you aren't going to instantly die to casual content unless you fail it catastrophically. If you stop focusing on doing it perfectly, and instead try to at least not fail it so badly that you'll die, you'll get faster at the bit you can handle, which gives you more time to do the bits you struggle more with.
And for better or worse, this game isn't about individual performance and party composition any more. Testing party composition just enforces a rigid meta that sucks for anyone playing a non-meta job (see: heavensward). Also, even if the devs did something like visual clutter to overwhelm you to induce sporadic party damage... well... that's the final boss of Zot, and it is probably overwhelming as hell to casual players since it even throws myself off as someone who does ultimate raids.
The only other skills to test are dps (requires enrage timers), group coordination (would not work in casual content at all), random flexing (likely problematic in casual content, as this stuff is often the hardest stuff in savage/ultimate), and probably some other stuff. So yeah, the devs don't have many other options for casual content, but IMO you have enough time, you just may need to accept imperfections at first until comfort and familiarity brings with it speed. -
07-21-2024, 07:40 PMEnjuden
I'll be honest, even with ultimate experience, things like the teacups always get me for a while. Eventually I just stop caring and either follow other people or take the hit until I must learn it like in Criterion (?) Dungeons.
The 99 trial I have decided to just stand with the tank since the boss doesn't cleave anyway, and it is significantly easier to see where the fire/wind sword will be. The other swords are frankly irrelevant even in EX so long as you do the right mechanic on the fire/wind one anyway. The lines I do not bother with the ones that have yellow circles since they more often than not get me killed. I only follow the line with the donuts since it tends to be not only safer but let me concentrate on the mechanics coming up.
As for if things will remain the same or change, it really depends on the whims of the team who makes the fights. There are times where they are heavily skewed toward pattern recognition like in every criterion, and other times where you just need to know the puzzles solution and solve it properly. From my experience they usually go back and forth between the two on each patch, and only really deviated from this in Shadowbringers where they stuck with one set of things consistently. -
07-21-2024, 10:10 PMValenceSo would you say that this very specific type of mechanic is harder than other mechanics overall? Because from what I've seen it doesn't seem to affect the whole playerbase equally. I do understand and have always agreed that to make up for the simplification of the battle system they have increased the encounter difficulty over time since ShB, but I'm not sure this is just it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TDawnstar
I probably have some form of neurodivergency as well and what seems to be a problem for me is when a certain amount of overlapping visual cues need to be solved within a fast timeframe. Up to a point, I can do it, until my brain just shuts down past that threshold. I feel that some of those mechanics have reached that point for me, while in contrast, I perform extremely well in longer paced complex mechanics like the ones we see in most of the 4th fights of each savage tier to a point I tend to find those fights part of the easiest of each tier for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkedone02
I know how to solve the Volok swords, just look at one platform that's not glowing, go to a sword on the section that isn't to be cleaved even though the required mental/visual projection already makes me constantly double check everything to leave no doubt behind. The fire/wind swords are more problematic to me due to more overlapping parts to check but there is still tricks to apply that can be worked upon too. The main problem is mechanics as such where there is no real trick, like the moving AoE/Donut lines for instance. Whether I drop my dps rotation or not, I have so far not been making any progress and my brain just shuts down, so I resort to just follow a dorito not to be a hindrance to the group. It's not exactly the best feeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz
It's not the only mechanic as well, Gales for example, was already close to threshold for me, but I can manage. Some others however, found notably in the last boss of criterion Rokkon (rotating shadow clones, the water waves...), I have given up long ago.
What a lot of replies, although probably trying to genuinely be helpful in that thread, seem to think is that people complaining about this somehow miss the "trick" or the "strat", or could do better by deconstructing the mechanic down to its core components. But that's missing the whole point. I know what to do already. I just can't seem to do it. Volok swords are fine and workable, like superchain 1 was. But for example superchain 2 was too much. Rokkon was too much. Statice was almost too much as well. Lala messed with me so hard that it just felt bad to go through every time, but this one I could manage because the solutions were relatively static/reduced. And I'm not speaking about those stupid teacups, I just can't.
I do feel that as well. I am a thorough, highly methodical person. I strove in most mechanics until those kinds started showing up. I'm no stranger to savage or even ultimates. But I sadly do feel that the game is going further and further away from what I do enjoy, and loses more and more things I used to love and chooses to embrace things like those visual puzzles that I find very alienating. I do want to keep playing this game though, but lately some of those encounters have felt like absolute curveballs to my brain, and added to the progressive loss of all the good RPG mechanics the game used to have, it sometimes just feels like the devs have decided they want me specifically out of the game. Perhaps that's an unfair thought, but that's a recurrent feeling I've been having.Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerfairy
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07-21-2024, 10:20 PMLieri
I agree this time from dungeon to trial there have been more visual puzzles than previously. Do I enjoy them? Not really. Do I mind them? Not really. But I wish there are more reaction based mechanic (like Queen Bee), you have to move straight away instead of being given 10-15 secs to figure out where to stand before the mechanic resolves, with all the telegraphs being thrown all over the place. They did a very paced and reactionary fight in Barbaricia too and it was a very fun fight for me. We need more of those.
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07-21-2024, 10:27 PMValence
I do definitely work well within barbaricia models, which we have had in the Vanguard's second boss as well. Purely reactive mechanics like that, I don't mind, they're fun and hectic, they don't mess with my brain.
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07-22-2024, 12:16 AMTDawnstarIndeed, it doesn't seem to affect the whole playerbase equally. By removing all gearing and stats progression part, they were forced to make a fight 100% about execution, which require spatial awareness and reflexes that some MMO players may not have. It's like if you put an MMO player to play something like Metal Gear or Monster Hunter. These aren't bad games in any way, but they are different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
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07-23-2024, 12:51 AMValence
Glad we agree.
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07-23-2024, 02:01 AMJinglypocketsNot really, I just have to memorize the patterns and immediately go to the right spot instead of "solving" the puzzle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arohk
Now we've found three ways to say the exact same thing while pretending to disagree! -
07-23-2024, 02:26 AMLilimoLimomoThese are the only 2 mechanics I remember (both from normal content), so they're the only ones I'll comment on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
I would guess that a major part of the difficulty with some of these mechanics comes from players feeling like they need to keep doing a full DPS rotation while they occur. Because doing your rotation takes a certain amount of your cognitive bandwidth, which leaves less cognitive bandwidth to devote to any given mechanic.
And I think that's the entire point of mechanics like the teacups. All by itself, the teacups aren't going to cause trouble for most players that have reached Dawntrail; you know which cup the tea is in, so if you just keep your eye on that one cup (and remember where the other filled cups were in relation to the one you're watching) then you'll be fine. But this relatively straightforward task becomes much more challenging if we're multi-tasking.
The general solution to any mechanic that's giving you trouble is pretty simple: stop your full-throated DPS while you need to pay attention to them. Just repeatedly tap a basic ranged instant-cast attack, or stop DPSing entirely. This frees up so much more of your mental bandwidth, both for performing and learning!
Superchain Theory is similar; is there a hoop? If so, can you find it? It's just searching for shapes; this is something that most people are capable of. If it's challenging you, it's probably because your rotation is distracting you, so free up some of your mental load by stopping your DPS while you do it. And over time, you may eventually feel like you've got this mechanic under your belt enough to do more DPS. Or maybe you won't! Either way is fine.
Or alternatively, don't ever stop DPSing! Continue DPSing while you try to learn and perform the mechanic, and if you die, you die. Dying is fine because it's a video game. Heck, I find dying fun, because it means the game has found a way to challenge me. I humbly recommend to all that will listen: when it comes to games, do your best to care less about winning and focus more on having fun. If you can only have fun when you're winning, you're having less fun than you could otherwise be having!
And even when I'm not dying, most of my best memories from FF14 are from auto-matched groups where one or more people kept dying but kept trying. I did Tender Valley the other day and there were so many deaths and wipes. Despite tips and iteration, our healer stated that they just weren't figuring out the maze at the end. So I asked if they would like me to show them the right path during the fight, and they said yes. So instead of immediately going down the right track after I had solved the maze, I jumped up and down in front of the track so that we could all go together. And we succeeded. It was a really nice memory.
And here's why it was nice: because we worked as a team to overcome a challenge. Every single person in the world has strengths and weaknesses that are different than those of others. And that's why teams are so fun! When I'm having trouble, someone else can help me. When they're having trouble, I can help them. None of us are a monolith that needs to be able to do everything themselves, because we are stronger together.
Which leads me into what I keep saying about "most players". The world is vast, and I would not be surprised if there are people whose brains have trouble following an object as it moves, or sorting through a bunch of visual shapes to find the one that's different, etc. There are absolutely people who will experience a much greater degree of challenge when asked to perform certain feats, or may even be incapable of overcoming them, even if they stop doing their rotations. We should all be compassionate about that.
But as long as we work together, as long as we see each other as allies who deserve compassion and support instead of strangers who owe us a good performance, as long as we see the game as an activity that's purpose is entertainment instead of a job that needs completing, we can overcome these challenges and have a great time while doing so.
As someone with some disabilities myself, I want to acknowledge that this reply doesn't delve into all aspects of disability (like self-image); that would require a much longer and more detailed post. But I hope what I've written here can be helpful.
And in the rare case that someone's a jerk because you or anyone else is bad, report them. Clean up the streets and help make FF14 that much more of a place where we have fun as a team. -
07-23-2024, 03:00 AMArohkokay, then what is the problem exactly? its not like you must solve a puzzle every time, just got to position X when pattern Y spawns, there is little to no RNG involvedQuote:
Originally Posted by Jinglypockets
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07-23-2024, 03:32 AMJinglypocketsMy problem isn't RNG, that the puzzles are too hard, or that they aren't solvable. I handle them just fine. I just don't think these kinds of mechanics are enjoyable gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arohk
The ones I dislike the most are the ones that are effectively unsolvable in real time -- the squares in P6S come to mind. There are way too many checks for anyone to be able to figure it all out at once, so you just resort to memorization; if the X is here, go here, and if the X is here, go over here instead. There's something deeply unsatisfying about solving a complicated puzzle that way, but it's so ridiculously over the top that there's really no other way to do it. Related: Not a puzzle mechanic, but the Harvests on P7S where you need a map and a protractor to figure out all the safe spots give me the same vibe. The wheel on Rubicante Extreme is solvable in real time, but the faster, more reliable way to handle it is to learn the "tells" on each spin. You're not solving the puzzle -- you're just reading 1-2 keys to figure out which of the potential safe spots is safe.
It feels less like I'm getting better at executing something difficult and more like I'm just memorizing a script.
I'm glad the positions can be memorized, mind you, because I'd enjoy them even less if we actually did have to solve them in real time.
To be clear, I've cleared all of the fights I mentioned; my complaint isn't that they're too difficult. I just don't think they're fun.