All Jobs Should Be Like Viper

Viper is the best job design of all time in FFXIV
Why:

1- very few skills makes remembering rotation is easy. Without making the job braindead.

2- no trash skills or mid skills all skills have clear purpose

3- animation is clean and there is no clipping even with high skill speed

All I mean ALL jobs should move to this direction but not in homogenized way

Litterally we have 4 buttons for astro to use cards
We have million other skills with healers kit

We have jobs with identity crisis like dark knight and Machinist and every healer

Viper is the golden standard for perfect design job with limited buttons and clean combos making game challenging and fun

Please do same for other and new jobs

I've found Viper to be kinda boring, just mash the same buttons quickly. Though it's probably just not for me.

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Originally Posted by Volfe

I've never been as bored playing a class as I've been with Viper, just mash the same buttons quickly. Though it's probably just not for me.

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You are correct.. even RPR isn't for me either because of slowness of the job

But RPR is good design job and it is almost perfect but AOE skills are just not that great compared to VPR

Buttons should be less
Animation should be clean
Enforcing identity to jobs
Balance

I think PCT is the better job design going forward

It condenses its core rotations into a single button so at any one time you can really only press 10 buttons or so but its rotation is incredibly Freeform and complex and it has no redundant actions

VPR to me leans too heavily towards “the class plays itself”

https://i0.wp.com/media4.giphy.com/m...BtGU/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I think PCT is the better job design going forward

It condenses its core rotations into a single button so at any one time you can really only press 10 buttons or so but its rotation is incredibly Freeform and complex and it has no redundant actions

VPR to me leans too heavily towards “the class plays itself”

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There is room for improvement nothing is 100%

But compared to other jobs it is perfect

I didn't play picto yet but I will try to give my opinion

Play it self is wrong term "glowing buttons" make it easy to understand the fight more than focusing on your bar and 3 other parameter

Playing Viper at high end is balance for my experience

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Originally Posted by Tunda

There is room for improvement nothing is 100%

But compared to other jobs it is perfect

I didn't play picto yet but I will try to give my opinion

Play it self is wrong term "glowing buttons" make it easy to understand the fight more than focusing on your bar and 3 other parameter

Playing Viper at high end is balance for my experience

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Oh I don’t disagree on VPR’s balance and its optimisation my only point on the “it plays itself” is the core combo is like 12 buttons condensed into 2 but the system progresses the combo you need next to its logical end without your intervention

It’s like if SAM had a one button combo and each time you started it it just progressed to the next sticker you needed without you actually intervening

PCT meanwhile has a standard 1-2-3 but there is never a reason to deviate from it because it is a standard 1-2-3

Sorry I should have made the point on “plays itself” clearer

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

https://i0.wp.com/media4.giphy.com/m...BtGU/giphy.gif

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Not every different opinion is bait you know.


At topic:
Viper is good for what it is. A fast paced and simple job.
Could it be used on other jobs? Probably in some form.
I could personally see it in monk but I’m not knowledgeable enough on that.

I prefer pic personally. Much Freeform while still simple enough.
A mix between long casts and instant casts.

At the end I think those two jobs are a good base for job identity and others should use their own thing instead of copying them.

I'm not against it, I think its notable that PVP manages to make jobs more unique with 1/10th the skills that PVE has.

I also embrace combo buttons as the future.

... Still haven't tried viper.

But, if a job have few buttons and is proc based. Then they should consider giving them a shorter gcd than the standard 3-2.5 second one.

Anyone that starts a thread about how one job's style of playing (in this case, 'smooth simplicity with few buttons' ) should be the golden standard for all jobs, is making SO many unspoken assumptions.

What it usually comes down to is, something suits their preferred play style, and they do not consider that different people could actually want to play through completely different control schemes.

Let's consider if we took it in the other direction instead -- imagine for a moment that instead of chasing one design philosophy across all jobs, we instead went and had job types that play so wildly unalike that you could question if they were even in the same genre. For the sake of example, we are going to ignore questions about how they'd balance the fights, that would be an interesting hypothetical for another time. Imagine we have a job that at the start of combat ditches the whole hotbar/action interface entirely and plays like a first person shooter running around the arena. A tank job that mitigates through playing DDR. A support job that stands outside the arena and contributes to defeating the boss by rapidly solving puzzle mini games to create effects in the arena.

Would it be a bad thing if 'how it plays' is so different between jobs? Each would appeal to players that enjoy entirely different kind of challenges. There would be far fewer people that would play all the jobs, but when you think about it, why do we all feel like we need to be leveled up in every job there is anyway instead of just the ones that play in ways that we experience as fun?

This forum often says it, if you try to make a game for everyone, you make a game for noone. This applies to jobs to. It is fine if there are jobs whose style of play would not appeal to all players, as long as there are enough players that enjoy it.

Reduce all jobs to one kind of design, and you reduce the player community you are appealing to to only one niche as well.

Playing Viper has made me realize that having the combo GCDs on separate buttons for the other jobs really does not increase the sense of engagement I get to any meaningful degree.

Idk I would find it kinda sad if other job button just combined, I don't want to just spam the same key during 90% of my filler.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Idk I would find it kinda sad if other job button just combined, I don't want to just spam the same key during 90% of my filler.

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Spamming 1111 or 2222 or 3333 is bad
But if you mean spaming:

121
211
122
212

This is not spamming this is perfection for what it is as dual welding job

I've been enjoying Viper a great deal. It is filling that melee dps slot I've not really been using in recent years. Reaper isn't really my thing, and SAM has become somewhat overwhelming over these past couple of expansions. Don't really care for the rest either. So, having Viper as a melee dps job has been wonderful. I will definitely get a lot of play time out of it. All of that said...no, not every job should be like Viper. There should be a variety of playstyle options. Always.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Idk I would find it kinda sad if other job button just combined, I don't want to just spam the same key during 90% of my filler.

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It's good when you have 2 combos like VPR but on DRK or RPR that would be a hellish boredom.

VPR pretty much pointing you at the next button you must press feels a bit boring. PCT, on the other hand, feels like proof Square Enix can compromise engaging job design and 2 min CD bursts meta and should be the grounds to further demand improvements on several of the current jobs' design looking forward. Looking specially at Summoner.

Also, I need to stress this out: VPR feels awful on synched down content, specially 50 and below.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

VPR pretty much pointing you at the next button you must press feels a bit boring. PCT, on the other hand, feels like proof Square Enix can compromise engaging job design and 2 min CD bursts meta and should be the grounds to further demand improvements on several of the current jobs' design looking forward. Looking specially at Summoner.

Also, I need to stress this out: VPR feels awful on synched down content, specially 50 and below.

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To be fair, very few jobs are fun to play 50 and below. This isn't a Viper exclusive issue. Honestly, they should just let us keep our rotations but scale the damage down, though that would probably require rebalancing all of those instances.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

To be fair, very few jobs are fun to play 50 and below. This isn't a Viper exclusive issue. Honestly, they should just let us keep our rotations but scale the damage down, though that would probably require rebalancing all of those instances.

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All jobs feel bad below 50. VPR has the distinction of somehow being the only non healer that feels bad below 90

They need to stop locking the big job mechanic of new jobs behind the level you start the expansion it launched in

VPR has this with reawaken, RPR with enshroud, GNB with continuation and DNC with technical

Ironically PCT only gets comet at 90, it’s 3 muses are at least accessible (if not complete) at 70

Just imagine for a moment having different jobs that suite the varying tastes of different types of players... Madness I know!

Bro I will quit the game instantly if they made all jobs like Viper. It's hands down the most boring melee. It's like they took summoner and made it a melee. Holy cow I hope SE looks at these forums for what not to do because it's a treasure trove for that.

Most people can't read I guess..

I said LIKE VIPER I didn't say it should have the same kit

Homogenization isn't allowed and I wish it will not be allowed
I appreciate black mage and reaper because how slow they are

I don't say Viper is better because it is fast but because it is forcing the identity of greedy dps with high speed attacks less button more of a combo based job like fighting games

This is the perfection to me

Homogenization isn't allowed

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I think PCT is the better job design going forward

It condenses its core rotations into a single button so at any one time you can really only press 10 buttons or so but its rotation is incredibly Freeform and complex and it has no redundant actions

VPR to me leans too heavily towards “the class plays itself”

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While I like the action priority design of PCT a lot, I would argue there is still some room for improvement in the implementation:

• Fire in Red (combo) and Blizzard in Cyan (combo) could be the same button. They are mutually exclusive depending on Subtractive Palette and you will always have exactly one of the two available. The same goes for their AoE versions.
• Holy in White and Comet in Black could be the same button. As with the combos there is never a situation where you have access to both.
• Creature Motif could be made the same button as Living Muse. You must cast Motif before you can use Muse and you can't cast it again until you use Muse, so there is never a situation where both are available.
• [Weapon Motif -> Steel Muse -> Hammer combo] and [Landscape Motif -> Scenic Muse -> Star Prism] likewise cleanly lock each other out with no overlap in availability so they can each be one button as well.

Taken together (and excluding role actions) that would make the job actually ten buttons, but I'm not arguing that's a bad thing at all. Ten buttons with interactions and decisions to make between them is preferable to me over 30 buttons that you press in a scripted order.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Viper is the best job design of all time in FFXIV
Why:

1- very few skills makes remembering rotation is easy. Without making the job braindead.

2- no trash skills or mid skills all skills have clear purpose

3- animation is clean and there is no clipping even with high skill speed

All I mean ALL jobs should move to this direction but not in homogenized way

Litterally we have 4 buttons for astro to use cards
We have million other skills with healers kit

We have jobs with identity crisis like dark knight and Machinist and every healer

Viper is the golden standard for perfect design job with limited buttons and clean combos making game challenging and fun

Please do same for other and new jobs

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I can agree to this so long as the battle content warrants the simplicity of job design. As someone who is playing Viper this tier, I have been having a blast only because the endgame content is actually engaging enough that I can use the simplicity of the design to actually focus on the entertaining encounter itself and not have to fight against my job as well as the boss.

All jobs shouldn't be cater to any one thing. That's the problem with the current job system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Spamming 1111 or 2222 or 3333 is bad
But if you mean spaming:

121
211
122
212

This is not spamming this is perfection for what it is as dual welding job

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I fail to see the correlation between pressing 2 buttons that automaticly do 3/4 of your filler rotation for you, and dual welding. I just think it a step to far in oversimplifying jobs. I get why some people may like it, but it would honestly be better if it stayed a viper only thing. I don't want Monk or dragoon to change to a similar gameplay. Just like I would be offended if they turned Black Mage into a clone of SMN.

For like two decades in WoW and FFXIV I've been a champion of reducing button bloat and mass pruning - I hate having too many buttons, the fewer the better. FFXIV PvP is ideal spellbook design - each ability feels impactful and justified.
I'm also a huge fan of condensing linear combos into single buttons, and this has worked really well for every job I've tried in DT so far... except VPR.

I'm only 86VPR so maybe it will change but so far I genuinely hate VPR. The playstyle, the UI, it looks easy but it would take way too much investment to actually learn what does what since it hides so much of that information until the moment you need to act on it.

On paper it might sound like a job I would enjoy but truly I hope its style stays contained to that job so I can enjoy the rest as they are.
The jobs' playstyles should feel different; that's just good design.

I don't think it should be the standard, but I do think there are lessons to be learned from VPR. A quick example i think of is for Healers. The thought is that, when you press 1, your first gcd heal turns into a combo ability. You could branch that out to where you have a bit more of an interesting rotation for healers but keep mostly the same kit.

HOWEVER I don't think this should be the standard for each job. SMN already feels like it should be just what it is for now (might be in the minority there), whereas jobs like tanking, you want a full kit available that you may not have to use all the time (for safety!). I feel like I could keep coming up with examples, but I will say, if your argument is that "jobs feel outdated compared to this one" then ya...I feel that one.

TLDR; Cool job, but may not be the standard.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

I feel to see the correlation between pressing 2 buttons that automaticly do 3/4 of your filler rotation for you, and dual welding. I just think it a step to far in oversimplifying jobs. I get why some people may like it, but it would honestly be better if it stayed a viper only thing. I don't want Monk or dragoon to change to a similar gameplay. Just like I would be offended if they turned Black Mage into a clone of SMN.

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Black mage is already one of the easiest job to play but not to master!

Black mage is perfect designed job it is high risk high reward job to play

Viper downside that you have to press more buttons to do damage
black mage downside you have to not move while casting or it will be cancelled
this is a perfect scheme design that you play specific job with specific rule you have to follow to make things balance and have different interactions with different jobs

currently BLM damage is bad we are waiting for savage to fix current issues but design wise the job is perfect

you are rooted to do casting to deal massive damage while that you have 2 utilities one is 30% shield one of the strongest mitigation in the game
and the other one is movement ability teleport to party member

the job is easy high reward summon is easy and low rewards because of utilities (i think they should remove them)

look at PVP it is very simple but high reward look at sage and dark knight and bard and machinist and even viper on PVP they are perfect jobs even if you brout the same kit into PVE they will work with as little fixes as 10 to 15 percent

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Volfe

I've found Viper to be kinda boring, just mash the same buttons quickly. Though it's probably just not for me.

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My current issue with Viper is I haven't find a good arragement on the hotbar to make the rotations flow naturally instead of feel like I'm hitting random button out of sequence.

It's like playing a melee Dancer on steroid at the speed of a MNK.

I would say Pictomancer is damn near perfect as far as design goes. It has a little bit of a bloat-for-the-sake-of-bloat issues. Like the filler casts could be a single button instead of two, and comet/holy could be a single button as well. Because all of these skills are mutually exclusive, you cannot cast one while the other is available.

You can macro em together of course, but that's its own can of worms. I do it because i'm uber casual.

But the free-form nature of the job is very appealing, and the damage output is designed around having downtime.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Viper downside that you have to press more buttons to do damage

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Viper has less buttons to press than other melee dps, and is at the top of dps chart next to Samurai and Reaper. The ''Downside'' of viper is that you need to do positional very often while avoiding all the funny orange puddle the boss does. I also fail to see the ''greedy dps'' part of Viper as your just alway pressing buttons to do damage, Samurai feel more greedy when they can try and put an extra Iaijutsu/Subame before dodging a boss attack.

No thank you. I'm glad you're enjoying VPR but I don't want all the jobs that I currently enjoy to become "press the button that lights up" jobs. I think it would be better for the game as a whole if we had a wide variety of jobs, rather than everything feeling like DNC/SMN/VPR.

Bait used to be believable.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

All Jobs Should Be Like Viper

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sOO homogenisatio is cool now?

I found viper more satisfying to play than Ninja. Its feel more simplyfied :).

I just picked up viper myself, and it brings back horrific memories of shb.
"Hey man, I'm gonna try Viper. I know you play it, can you give me a basic run down on how to play it?"
"Oh bro it's SO EASY just hit the glowy buttons man"
*ptsd intensifies*
"This reminds me of when people said that about dnc, when you're supposed to be pooling feathers and gauge for burst, and spending to prevent overcap"
"nah bro it's fine just hit the glowy buttons"
viper is the kinda job you can pick up, have no idea what youre doing, and just go push buttons .. and your dps wont be absolute trash in casual content... unless youre really really bad and beyond saving. I barely know what I'm doing on it at all. but im getting by. but this is bad. this is dumbing down the game which only welcomes more problems.

BUT

theyre giving us the condensed combos people asked for, so this is what it would be like if they did it to all the other jobs... it feels ... weird. bland. idk. just some thoughts on it after playing it in 3 duties. the tooltips confusedthe shit out of me when i was trying to set up my hotbar too ... its all over the place