/r/ffxivdiscussion: The format of the MSQ lacks gameplay and should change

Full Title - /r/ffxivdiscussion: The format of the MSQ lacks gameplay and should change from now on

I saw this thread on the FFXIV Discussion subreddit and I think the author really nails it on the head regarding how I (and plenty of other players) feel about the DT MSQ: there's just not enough gameplay and combat in the MSQ. I'm pretty damn sure I didn't engage in combat during the MSQ until I was at least 1.5 to 2 hours in. It really is dumb how the player has to wait that long in the MSQ to make use of one of the core functions of the game. Anyhow, it looks like this particular reddit thread is getting plenty of support, and I'm glad there's other players out there who think similarly.

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Original Post:

This is merely MY OPINION. But after playing this game since...my gosh since 1.4 and nonstop since then (some times hardcore, some times veeeery casual) i think with Dawntrail we reached the point when the MSQ from a new expansion format is just not fun and obsolete.

Exp gets released, new areas, new zones and new enemies...but all that for what? Countless of hours of just "go there and talk, then there and talk, then there and talk...talk, talk, talk, talk, talk" till some times you get to do something like follow an NPC, escort another, find some NPC around an area or kill 1-2 enemies in milliseconds. Rinse and repeat until you unlock a dungeon/trial, have an absolute blast and go back to step 1 for another 10 hours.

My complaint? The world and the fauna inside is useless. I didn't need to fight or kill any enemi out of fates or MSQ mandatory. Some quest are ridiculous "kill 3 tigers in a zone infested by tigers" but hey, you can't kill any random tiger...it has to be the 3 ones that pop up when you enter a purple circle. Ridiculous.

I'm saying this because, pre-DT i played other games...other MMOS. And I tried games like SWTOR. Another history focused MMO where you also have a MSQ...but man the quests are "invade this base and hack the computer" or "infiltrate the enemy camp and put poison in the water", "fight the sick animals and find a vaccine for this sickness"...a lot of just..."not talking" quest that of course involved talking (AND DECISION MAKING) and learning the lore...but most time I was wandering around using the gameplay, fighting, infiltrating, solving puzzles, finding items to open the next door or finding a shortcut thanks to my crafting jobs) It even has instanced areas that feel like mini-dungeons for you and your party with elite monsters...the game felt like an adventure where you, the player...actually play. Now going back to my favourite MMO, FFXIV, i find that so far (MSQ lvl95) all I do is "go here and talk". I don't use gameplay out of the rouletes or some fates. I am a FF fan since FF6 and i know there has always been a lot of scenes and talking...but at least there was some action between talkings...some fights, some cool stuff.

I don't know if this situation is because of how much they wanted to do a "chill experience for the casual players" but I have the feeling that i didn't get this bored during Heavensward or Stormblood. Maybe because back then you had to do sidequest in order to level up and keep the level close to the MSQ. Now the "just talk MSQ" and 2 rouletes per day skyroket your lvl to max in no time (I already have picto at lvl100 and Viper 88...and MSQ just reached 95).

Fellow FF players...do you feel the same or you think the game should change a bit and be more....a game?

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Notable Comments:

"I agree, while I did enjoy the story, it could have effectively been one giant cutscene.
The final zone had some interesting choice based stuff, which you knew you had to do, but it was the one single stand out part for me.
The rest of the story was a blurred exposition dump with some dungeons.
For example, the event that happened between Zone 4 and 5.
That would have been pretty fun to be playable, helping out, getting stuff, planning and choosing options to help you in the combat sequence... instead of a cutscene.
Even figuring out the mystery in one of the first 2 zones, same with making like... i dunno... An Actual Trading minigame where you had to figure stuff out and make good trades to get what you needed.
It was like a movie that happened in a bunch of different rooms, and you had a fun themed hallway to walk along between each one.
I will always say that MMOs like RuneScape have some of the best quests since they are all a mix of puzzles, reading, thinking about your next move, the occasional boss fight, gathering and crafting. Everything the game has to offer, in addition to lending a big sense of wonder and world building. Some of my favorite MMO memories are doing some of the bigger quests in 2004-2008 RuneScape.
The game needs to evolve and improve drastically, and ditch the MSQ formula."

"I think some of the EW solo instances were a step in the right direction, and I'm not even talking about In From the Cold.
Two other Garlemald instances (This Is Thancred and the one during the Final Days) felt like perfectly good sequences that mixed in gameplay, plot movement, and cutscenes, all with voiced dialogue.
These could stand to be longer, or be back-to-back segments of quests. If they wanted to do some of the simple out in the open world, I'm sure it'd be possible. Maps (+map dungeons) and battle leves function in ways that could apply to MSQ. They could also give variable EXP to these so we don't have what feel like useless "talk to npc x5" quests before and after them to pad out how much exp we get.
They certainly have the means, and I really hope they experiment more. DT felt like the classic SE over-correction from negative feedback wrt the Endwalker quests, so hopefully they swing back in a different direction next time."

"They have to ask themselves if they want to make an RPG or a visual novel."

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Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...ay_and_should/

Feel free to discuss your opinions below. Cheers.

Honestly the format of the MSQ and visual novel-ness never really bothered me until DT exposed those flaws to me. I think before DT, the story and the atmosphere made up for it so I didn't really mind it. I'm one of those people who actually really loved ARR; I was able to look past the shoddy writing because the feeling of going from zero to hero was awesome. But this time around there was nothing to make up for it. It really hit me that it's 2024 and the gameplay is like this. Sure the dungeons and trials were fun but not enough to compensate for the quality of the MSQ. I would really like for Square to innovate more and take risks on the MSQ gameplay and put a new spin on things. I wish that they were not so afraid to do so, and also they are in dire need of an editor. Editing down the MSQ + adding more gameplay would feel fresh for many people. :) This game is a cash cow for them so I would really like it if they funneled that money back into it.

I've said elsewhere, the number of "these NPC's are following you", or us following another NPC, or us sneaking behind someone seemed to increase. I remember or 3 in EW. Two of them were typical for new cities, but the one in Ultima Thule also set a mood. I'm honestly tired of following NPC's around cities. I assume this is done because of how painful Ul'dah and Limsa can be to navigate, but I go to plenty of cities without a tour guide so I'm sure the WoL can handle it too. The problem is it starts to feel like it's being done to pad the quests and make the MSQ feel longer.

If they're gonna have slow parts of a story, it needs more gameplay.
DT really showed this problem with the msq

I agree. I would like there to be fewer MSQ quests, and for the MSQ quests not give enough experience to get you to the next stage. Between MSQ quests, we would have to do sidequests, fates, dungeons, and other activities to level up. That would give us an opportunity to actually play the game while progressing through the MSQ. This would also make getting to the next stage of the MSQ feel like a reward. The experience would be more enjoyable because its not a constant string of cutscenes with no gameplay.

For me, this was a problem even back in EW. Simply put, they removed the small encounter with packs of mobs after SHB and reduced the ammounts of solo duty. Even if these encounter weren't hard or very engaging gameplay wise, it still gave some pause between dialogue and cutscene, it was a nice way to digest the last bit of lore before being thrown in another bunch of cutscenes.

This was better than adding 2 extra cutscenes in each quests where character just re-affirm whatever they talked about in the last quest, like this was a seasonal cartoon that keep reminding you what happend in the last weekly episode.

I am absolutely ecstatic that this conversation is finally being had within the community, 'cause we've needed to have it for some time now.

Yes, xiv is "The Story MMO" and I don't want to take that label away from it, but story can be delivered through interactive methods and systems, and, dare I say, due to the strengths and weaknesses of the genre, it's usually a more effective way to deliver the story than the torrent of cutscenes rut we've been stuck in for years...

As someone who loves actually playing MMOs, I really feel xiv's misuse of its genre every time they insist on separating Story Time and Gameplay time. It really feels like, at this point, the game is intended to be a vehicle for incredibly low budget 3d animated movies with a dungeon/boss fight minigame tacked on. And like.. I know they can do better

I hope in the upcoming patches and expansions, the direction of the game can shift to trying to encourage more organic multiplayer interactions, facilitate more opportunities for natural world interactions, and shift towards using cutscenes as rewards for gameplay instead of using them as a substitute for it.

Wish we could get rid of split zones, MSQ gated zones, and every trail being after the level X3 and X9 dungeon. Makes things feel formulaic and restrictive. My favorite zones have always been the ones that aren't split.

To be frank, if you don't care about the story and just want to get to combat, then there's the option to skip.

One of the HUGE selling points of FF14 and makes it so successful is the rich story. And telling a story takes time... like that "1.5 to 2 hours" that you had to "wait" until you got to the bam bam, smash smash.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

To be frank, if you don't care about the story and just want to get to combat, then there's the option to skip.

One of the HUGE selling points of FF14 and makes it so successful is the rich story. And telling a story takes time... like that "1.5 to 2 hours" that you had to "wait" until you got to the bam bam, smash smash.

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We are decades past the era where narrative and gameplay had to be separate content.

More solo duties and meaningful combat in general would be nice because running to point A then killing whatever monster spawns in two or three GCDs isn't exactly riveting.

You mean you don't enjoy

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Am I missing any major MSQ mechanics?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

To be frank, if you don't care about the story and just want to get to combat, then there's the option to skip.

One of the HUGE selling points of FF14 and makes it so successful is the rich story. And telling a story takes time... like that "1.5 to 2 hours" that you had to "wait" until you got to the bam bam, smash smash.

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Agree.

In fact the next expansion should remove trials and dungeons once for all, this game should be a Visual novel, no more engaging in combat,exploring new zones etc.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

To be frank, if you don't care about the story and just want to get to combat, then there's the option to skip.

One of the HUGE selling points of FF14 and makes it so successful is the rich story. And telling a story takes time... like that "1.5 to 2 hours" that you had to "wait" until you got to the bam bam, smash smash.

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They can't have feature length movie gaps of play time when the story is absolute garbage like it is in DT.

It's also NOT a good selling point for your game to say "yeah you have to wad through tons of boring story to even get to anything decent . . .". If that's what the word of mouth becomes for the game then it's going to slow to a crawl when it comes to getting new players.

Keep in mind, you can skip all the cutscenes in the world but you still have to do all the boring quests in between which still takes a good chunk of time.

ARR is already a barrier to entry for many players because it's more boring than the expansions. HW got a lot better, SHB was a bit of a mixed bag but it's content was strong and the gaps between actually playing the game was much smaller than it is now. Then SHB came along and knocked it out of the park with the story and the game design was largely still fine but starting to show cracks. EW then happened and it was extremely similar to DT; the big difference there though was that it was wrapping up the story so I felt the length it took to get to combat was somewhat warranted.

Starting a new chapter of the story should be that where they could apply everything they learned from what makes a good MSQ and what makes engaging content and make the story + gameplay something truly special. And they didn't. They completely missed the mark and as someone who used to be this games biggest cheerleader to their friends, I can simply no longer recommend it unless they change things up in meaningful ways.

It causes a major disconnect from the game and story when its just scenes and talking. I went afk so many times, fell asleep. got bored and started browsing the internet. I really liked the tourist vacation thing we had going on prior to going to the classic western theme area that like 4 people actually like. The rite of succession was a fun thing to do, and to learn about the different peoples of the nation. I'm not saying the story is bad at all, I do like the story itself. The delivery of the story didn't seem appropriate for an rpg, was more of one of those audio book things. lol

WE WANNA PLAY THE GAME! BUT WE DONT WANT TOO MANY SOLO DUTIES OR 10 MINUTE SOLO DUTIES OR TEDIOUS BORING TIMEKILLER QUESTS!!! WE WANNA HAVE FUN WHILE ENJOYING THE STORY YOSHI-PLEASE!!!! CMON DAWG YOU EVEN DUMBED DOWN THE MSQ SO NOW THE ALOE PLANT NEXT TO MY TV CAN PLAY THE GAME TOO

I mean I am used to slogging thru long VNs so I don't mind 0 gameplay whatsoever

But Wuk Lamat's MSQ had me broken and beaten....I had to take so much breaks else I'll go crazy

For the first time since I started (during shb) I am dreading the MSQ and not looking forward to future expansions

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

One of the HUGE selling points of FF14 and makes it so successful is the rich story. And telling a story takes time...

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Yea cause it not like we had any good story telling during the 8 years prior to Endwalker, when Story and cutscenes took less time to go through.

I feel like "In From the Cold" and the number of complaints about people not liking role-play solo duties are likely factors to the lack of combat in Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

You mean you don't enjoy

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Am I missing any major MSQ mechanics?

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How could you forget exciting gameplay experiences such as “click sparkly point and wait for an animation to complete” and “click purple smoke and kill a single trash monster”?

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

You mean you don't enjoy

Talk to NpC
Talk to 3 NPC
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Am I missing any major MSQ mechanics?

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This person is following you.

OMG this is my Post xDDD. I logged in to the forum to post this as somebody in reddit told me to post it also here.

Glad it's getting some legs.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Yea cause it not like we had any good story telling during the 8 years prior to Endwalker, when Story and cutscenes took less time to go through.

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Rose colored glasses. It's been the same formula with an average of 1 new mechanic during MSQ per expansion.

I couldn't agree more with this post. I liked Dawntrail in terms of the story; for my part, the under-appreciated first part was a breath of fresh air because I was a bit fed up with shonen scenarios. On the other hand, the overall pace is, as in Endwalker, atrocious. In general, over an hour's playtime: well over thirty minutes of dialogue (and this is coming from someone who likes c-rpg, so I'm not bothered by the dialogue), 25 minutes of movement... And five minutes where you're really ‘playing’. The impression is compounded by the lack of resistance of the open world: while it's never really been complicated (since I've been playing the game, anyway), it becomes more and more obsolete as our skills multiply. So when you finally have to kill two tigers/birds/whatever, it literally takes two seconds.

There are also plenty of missed opportunities to diversify the gameplay. The example given in the original post is a case in point: defending a city offers a thousand and one options for doing something interesting. To see it reduced to a cutscene is a waste. Side note: that's why I'm in favour of tailing and escorting quests. They're still gameplay diversifications, even if some people grumble about them; so they're welcome innovations.

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Originally Posted by royox

OMG this is my Post xDDD. I logged in to the forum to post this as somebody in reddit told me to post it also here.

Glad it's getting some legs.

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It's a great post. Thanks for taking the time to write it up.

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Originally Posted by Ranhansha

This person is following you.

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Lmao, make sure to talk to this person every time you get to a highlighted circle on the ground.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

You mean you don't enjoy

Talk to NpC
Talk to 3 NPC
Zoom here
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Am I missing any major MSQ mechanics?

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Escort NPC that walks slower than you and gets stuck on terrain.

I think it's a twofold problem:

1. The writing is extremely repetitive and the dialogue desperately needs an editor. As far as I know, nearly everything written by this particular writer has been poorly received. It is what it is. Find them another role within the team. The scene direction is very inefficient too. There are often 5 second pauses between line deliveries. 10 second pauses to watch a character clench their fist. Etc. That all adds up over 100+ quests, and it kills any sense of momentum in a scene.

2. Gaming attitudes change over time. There's a reason Everquest isn't the most popular MMO anymore. What people like changes over time, and it can be sudden. We may have reached the tipping point on "Talk to X, then talk to 3 NPCs". Sometimes gamers just decide they aren't doing it anymore. Again, look at what WoW did to EQ.

It's disheartening that this team think this structure is engaging and good enough that they actually put the same structure in a full budget single player game (FFXVI)
That's how bad it is, this team need some new blood/new experiences urgently.

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Originally Posted by Ahelissa

2. Gaming attitudes change over time. There's a reason Everquest isn't the most popular MMO anymore. What people like changes over time, and it can be sudden. We may have reached the tipping point on "Talk to X, then talk to 3 NPCs". Sometimes gamers just decide they aren't doing it anymore. Again, look at what WoW did to EQ.

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Yep, it's true, there's no middle ground between "vacuously mob grinding in the 2000s" and "an endless cutscene interspersed with 5 minute bouts of walking in glorified MSQ container zones that cost a ton of money to produce but serve very little other purpose."

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Originally Posted by angelar_

Yep, it's true, there's no middle ground between "vacuously mob grinding in the 2000s" and "an endless cutscene interspersed with 5 minute bouts of walking in glorified MSQ container zones that cost a ton of money to produce but serve very little other purpose."

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Kind of a bizarre interpretation of what I wrote. Refuting a point I wasn't trying to make.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

I feel like "In From the Cold" and the number of complaints about people not liking role-play solo duties are likely factors to the lack of combat in Dawntrail.

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I sincerely hope not, citizen. That would be a hugely miscalculated knee-jerk reaction on Square's part if they misunderstood the complaints about "In From the Cold" as not wanting gameplay.





May your blades never dull.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Rose colored glasses. It's been the same formula with an average of 1 new mechanic during MSQ per expansion.

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Unfortunately for you, 2 of my friends started playing FFXIV in the last 2 years and I've seen both of them stream their experience of the MSQ on our discord server. So my memories of the older xpac ain't tainted in some nostalgia. In fact it did let me make a new opinion on some part of it, and to experience the new post ARR MSQ since it got reduced in length.

Questing in general lacks gameplay. Tell me if this type of Quest chain sounds familiar to you:

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Talk to npc (a)
Pick up x number of sparkly things on the ground. One of the sparkly things is purple therefore there will be one or two easy to deal with mobs.
Talk to npc (a).
Talk to npc (b).
*text only cutscene*
Talk to npc (c).
Talk to npc (b). again
walk to a destination on the map. use item or emote.
*text only cutscene*
Talk to npc (b). again
Go to place on the other side of the world.
Talk to npc (d)
*text only cutscene plays*
Talk to npc (e)
Talk to npc (f)
Use emote or item on npc (g)
Talk to npc (g)
Talk to npc (f)
Go to location on the map. Pick up x number of things.
Talk to npc (f)
Go back and talk to npc (b)
npc tells you to go to where npc (h) is
Talk to npc (h)
use a camera to take a picture of a certain mob in the background.
Talk to npc (b)
Go back to npc (h) give him a letter.
npc (h) tells you to go back to talk to npc (g)
npc (g) tells you to talk to npc (d)
npc (d) gives you an item to give to npc (c)
npc (c) tells you to talk to npc (b)
and finally you go back and report to npc (a)
*text only cutscene plays*

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Personally, at least for me I felt Dawntrail MSQ was paced better around getting you from zone to zone, It didn't have long quest chains making me backtrack two zones over to complete where I was forward and back and then forward and back then one step forward. Honestly, even though I watched every cutscene, talked to every npc post cutscene, did all the side quests and Fates I could... Dawntrail felt like a blur to me. Which is funny because every expansion before in my almost 10 years of playing has had like one bit where I was like "Eh" and it took me forever to motivate myself to get through it. (minus EW, HW)

In Shadowbringers things felt slow for the trolly section of Ahm Arang, Stormblood Yanxia through Azim Steppe was rough. Heavensward I just remember taking breaks during the msq for life reasons I was trying not to rush myself because Post ARR was rough for me only because I was impatient and wanted to get into HW and catch up with my then friends that I played with... So I'd like force myself to progress as much as I could through the then heavy ARR post game content as fast as possible to catch up. I never did succeed. I was almost always perpetually just half an expansion behind back then.

Very late here, so here are some random disorganized thoughts, not exclusive to DT:

-Combat, outside the context of group play, feels really bad and I have no idea how to fix that.
-Combat Scenarios are usually too long, enemies are too spongy, they feel unrewarding and like a waste of time. They are also still single player only and its baffling for a mmo, playing alongside friends is frustrating.
-New zones might as well be a big grey square. Which is funny considering how long they spend showing the visual design of new zones. There's no exploring, there's no quest sending me to a interesting place, no secret locations/rewards, even the gathering points are 100% fixed.
-Independent from the quality of the story, the framework for it just feels all wrong. I'm not the adventurer exploring places, talking to people, discovering things or solving problems. I'm the muscle for the anime Scooby Gang being hand held through places I'd rather not be.

[7.0 Light MSQ spoilers ahead]

I really agree with the original post and all the answers.

I'm playing FFXIV since 1.0 but really got hooked at ARR and even if previous expansions had flaws, i've never been bored following it.

I think Endwalker was really good, even if it was slow and not always interesting, it was carried by the "it's the end of a 10 years story" so it really clicked for me.

I've just finished DT MSQ and I, in fact, really liked it ! The first part was really slow and felt like a guided tour in a hollywood studio but the idea of a trial of succession was really original and some fresh air from the "saving the world" we had for a while.
The second part tho, was for me incredible, the cities, the character design, it was a real changing in the Tribal environment we have each expansion and i really wish they will pursue the game in this direction. Solution 9 is 11/10 for me and i visited every pixel of it.

But in the last third of the MSQ, even if it was really good, i was heavily burned out, i was happy to get to the end just so i can do something relevant gameplaywise.

We had really cool moment, the Wuk Lamat vs TwoHeadedKinkLizardBoy solo instance was fun and a good change of pace in the story
The dungeons and trials are for me the best we had since launch but i think, the progression phase from release to the end of MSQ is lacking a paralel system to engage players.

We need something to do that is relevant (and not only a xp farm) that bring something that will follow throught the whole leveling process and after the max level.
Maybe an area that needs us to join other players to progress a big paralele story that will reward us with equipments or that will unlock new buildings, npc. Something for us to feel like we're a part of something and that this is OUR story.

The problem of the current MSQ is that story is TOLD and not LIVED, there's a lot of solutions to tell a story throught gameplay and experience rather than text blocks.

I think we need a balance between gameplay and storytelling, i really liked DT a lot but I was expecting the "after Endwalker closure" would bring important changes in the structure of progression.

It's just a point of view but overall DT is really good for me and I'm loving it, but as a previous person said, I'm really having trouble recommanding the game while me, as a fan from the first hour, get burned out during the progression of expansions.

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Originally Posted by WeebPolice

I sincerely hope not, citizen. That would be a hugely miscalculated knee-jerk reaction on Square's part if they misunderstood the complaints about "In From the Cold" as not wanting gameplay.





May your blades never dull.

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Hey remember what titanman said? Why you gotta always be replying on my posts lmao.

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Originally Posted by Dorito_Burrito

Why is it that when one of you two makes a post, the other one isn't too far behind with a reply?

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Edit:

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Originally Posted by Cach

-Independent from the quality of the story, the framework for it just feels all wrong. I'm not the adventurer exploring places, talking to people, discovering things or solving problems. I'm the muscle for the anime Scooby Gang being hand held through places I'd rather not be.

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Yup we're pretty much just henchmen for furry female naruto.

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Originally Posted by Swordsman

Hey remember what titanman said? Why you gotta always be replying on my posts lmao.

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https://media1.tenor.com/m/j4CbS_5qR...rong-0p1sf.gif

Citizen, a cautionary tale - we'll end up invoking Titanman/Doritoman if we keep conversing about him.




Remember the lessons of the past.

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Originally Posted by WeebPolice

Citizen, a cautionary tale - we'll end up invoking Titanman/Doritoman if we keep conversing about him.

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https://media1.tenor.com/m/RtJV4Egxm...ison-yates.gif