Analysis on dungeon difficulty increase

The dungeon and trial difficulty has been increased in Dawntrail. Here is my analysis on the techniques and the consequences of it, as a veteran MMORPG player.

In most boss fights of older expansions, most mechanics either have very obvious visual effects or a cast bar with the name of the boss skill, so one can use these as a clue to react. In this expansion, they added some skills that have no cast bar, name or obvious visual effects. This has turned verbal and quantifiable information into nonverbal and unquantifiable information. That is one technique to make it harder.

The second technique, is to increase the amount of one-shot kill skills for boss encounters. Surely, for those who value competition over collaboration, this brings them the adrenaline rush, and it serves them very well.

However, it is the same old path Blade and Soul Online once walked. The major consequence is the drastic reduction of the error tolerance, and thus the surge in stress levels in the player base. In turn, it fosters perfectionism and a false sense of superiority, causing schism and alienation among us players. As a consequence, expect way more toxicity in the player community. This is not our fault, but the unintended consequence of SE's game design.

It is SE's game, it is their call. I, for one, can handle the mechanics, but if the toxicity reaches the BnS level, sorry then♥

I haven’t notice any difficulty increase. I notice they decrease the difficulty in older trials and dungeons which I’m not happy with.

Then again, having run through the Titania MSQ trial as a Pictomancer, it appears that DPS in some older trials is as difficult (and low) as it was back when the trial was new. (3 wipes, but still finished. Thankfully there is only that pseudo-rage bit at the end).

Haven't really seen any toxicity caused by this. For the final story dungeon, I was healing for the first time and we wiped like 4 times to the first boss cause most didn't know how to properly move through its main mechanic. The tank tried to show us and we eventually learned it and got past the boss.

If you're worried about not being allowed to learn or have anxiety about making a negative impression, I recommend finding a newbie-friendly FC (or just a general friendly FC, usually most people like helping and supporting others in this game in my experience) and running the dungeons with them. Letting the party know its your first time or even just that you might struggle with some bosses. Or actively asking for advice. It can be a hurdle to have the courage to communicate, but it can easily lead to more positive experiences.

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Originally Posted by Mikitan

it is just straight up embarrassing for me now to a point I am having anxiety pushing through the MSQ. I feel like I am a burden, a waste of time, and the people on the forums seems to agree with that assessment... if you have a problem with this insane difficulty... unsub and leave, they got what they want and anyone below them has no place here. What happened to this community?

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I personally strongly disagree that there’s any content between 90-98 that constitutes ’insane difficulty’ in my experience, but more to the point if you’re having trouble with DF why not use trusts?

They give you all the time in the world to learn what you’re having trouble with without the pressure of other people judging you. Plus following trusts can (usually) allow you to learn safe positioning etc for many bosses, so it’s kind of like a tutorial.

It might seem difficult, but that’s probably just because it’s new. Once you’ve given a dungeon a few tries - even with it’s just with trusts - it’ll be much more comfortable. Plus things like gear too of course.

Lastly, when it comes to overall performance frankly I wouldn’t worry too much. As long as you at least try, I’m absolutely sure you won’t be the worst player to have ever set foot in that dungeon lol. Hell I’ve done the dungeons all quite a few times (got 3 jobs at lv100 so far lol), and I still die to random stuff lol.

As for the OP, I feel like the second technique is problematic. If there are more one-shots, it devalues the healers even further as it gives them less power to help the party survive. At the same time, not having enough outgoing damage leads to what we have now where there isn’t enough to justify using GCD heals. My suggestion would be rather than more one-shot mechanics, more mechanics ‘that deal significant amounts of damage’ would meet the requirements without running risk of devaluing healers (and increasing the value of raise-casters). Whether it’s just high values, percentage based, ‘reduce HP to 1’.
Plus higher damage output also incentivises dps to use their mitigation/healing skills

The only "harder" ones are the two ex dungeons, due their chaotic mechanics - you notice how they arent made for trusts. Till those we've never managed a wipe at all, which is kinda sad on first times...

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Then again, having run through the Titania MSQ trial as a Pictomancer, it appears that DPS in some older trials is as difficult (and low) as it was back when the trial was new. (3 wipes, but still finished. Thankfully there is only that pseudo-rage bit at the end).

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Oh I have no problem to get through. I always do the MSQ dungeons myself solo on duty support to learn the mechs, to make sure I am not a burden in roulettes. Thank you for your concern.

The toxicity increase is a long-term effect. It usually takes at least 6-9 months to see, and is gradual. I have seen it happening again and again in various games. It is a pattern, not a rant.

I was giving another try to BLM in DT, and it seems the dungeons are not very friendly to BLM's hardcasts. In the fight of a certain knockbacker, I wiped 9 times (still solo duty support), and eventually killed it, adopting a strategy of insta-casts.

The second encounter, I was tanking in the roulette, and had no problem at all. But I decided to ditch BLM again for SMN. I used to lead in very difficult raids myself in WoW back in the days, so it is not a personal problem.

For other dungeons, I really see a striking similarity between the new design philosophy and Shoot'em up games (STG), such as Touhou and Raiden series. It is a discussion about game design, not player competence.

I don’t think they are harder mechanically. It’s because we were used to over be geared at the end of EW.

That being said, visually some dungeons are really hard on the eyes (like vanguard where everything glows and is pink and purple - I have to rest after that one) and the netcode can play bad tricks on the first boss of Stayborough (I had adds pass right through me with no effect and got stunned by adds that looked about 5 ft away when I was sure I was clear of them).

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Originally Posted by Connor

As for the OP, I feel like the second technique is problematic. If there are more one-shots, it devalues the healers even further as it gives them less power to help the party survive. At the same time, not having enough outgoing damage leads to what we have now where there isn’t enough to justify using GCD heals. My suggestion would be rather than more one-shot mechanics, more mechanics ‘that deal significant amounts of damage’ would meet the requirements without running risk of devaluing healers (and increasing the value of raise-casters). Whether it’s just high values, percentage based, ‘reduce HP to 1’.
Plus higher damage output also incentivises dps to use their mitigation/healing skills

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I have noticed that instakills are fairly common among the last alliance raid dungeon of each expansion, such as The Tower at Paradigm's Breach.

I personally think it is good to have instakills there, but everything is good in moderation.

Your point about healers is valid. If instakills are getting too excessive, I might well adjust my healing strategy accordingly, or even stop playing healers.

How will this influence the job balance? That is an interesting and open question. We will see. ^_^

Mechanics got harder, but still easy to do if you've seen them once or twice. The only problem is that people have gotten too used to snoozefest mechanics that requires absolute zero attention to do so they just gotta adjust.

I haven't noticed any increase in the amount of one shot mechanics. The final boss of the lv 95 dungeon can knock you off the platform and that's about it.

Complaining about toxicity 6-9 months from now is completely hysterical. Just because you say it will happen doesn't mean it will. And your personal experience that no one can verify and even you can't properly quantify means nothing.

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

I haven't noticed any increase in the amount of one shot mechanics. The final boss of the lv 95 dungeon can knock you off the platform and that's about it.

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When I see people dying on that one, I just tell them to watch the golden glow around his arms and go opposite and slight diagonal on the blue things. Works like a charm every time (so far). Simple mechanic.

In terms of difficulty, normal content is maybe a 3/10 instead of a 2/10 now. I can see how people who are less familiar with the game could get caught out the first time around, but once you've seen the mechanics they're very simple. Not a problem in the slightest IMO. It's more fun and engaging than Ew content.

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Originally Posted by Mikitan

I know at least for me this game has gone from casual fun to just abandoning duty 90% of the time for these new dungeons after I've been raised the 5th time in the 1st boss fight. I am trying to enjoy learning pictomancer but I am spending more time running than casting. I don't begrudge people having harder modes to play, but it is just straight up embarrassing for me now to a point I am having anxiety pushing through the MSQ. I feel like I am a burden, a waste of time, and the people on the forums seems to agree with that assessment... if you have a problem with this insane difficulty... unsub and leave, they got what they want and anyone below them has no place here. What happened to this community?

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The increase of difficulty or rather awareness in these dungeon isnt a problem for me, however I do wish people like you are able to grit their teeth through it and overcome it. I want to tell you that it's okay to be bad and a burden for content that came out not even a month ago. As a healer I absolutely do not mind raising you 10 times because guess what? you are learning and I was in that situation too the first time i ran that dungeon, so just consider this content to have a longer learning curve than other expacs, it's fine.

You will get there eventually

Even as a healer I'm noticing that I'm spamming Broil more because more people are learning the fights. A little difficulty won't kill anyone.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

In terms of difficulty, normal content is maybe a 3/10 instead of a 2/10 now.

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3/10 ?
If we say Ultimates are 9-10 difficulty, the hardest dungeon you can think of is 1.5 at best.

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Originally Posted by Mikitan

I know at least for me this game has gone from casual fun to just abandoning duty 90% of the time for these new dungeons after I've been raised the 5th time in the 1st boss fight. I am trying to enjoy learning pictomancer but I am spending more time running than casting. I don't begrudge people having harder modes to play, but it is just straight up embarrassing for me now to a point I am having anxiety pushing through the MSQ. I feel like I am a burden, a waste of time, and the people on the forums seems to agree with that assessment... if you have a problem with this insane difficulty... unsub and leave, they got what they want and anyone below them has no place here. What happened to this community?

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But the point of learning how to play picto and do a lot of damage, is to know how to perform your rotation and buffs while mechanics are happening, otherwise you'd be off better learning hitting a striking dummy...

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Originally Posted by Katachthon

The dungeon and trial difficulty has been increased in Dawntrail. Here is my analysis on the techniques and the consequences of it, as a veteran MMORPG player.

In most boss fights of older expansions, most mechanics either have very obvious visual effects or a cast bar with the name of the boss skill, so one can use these as a clue to react. In this expansion, they added some skills that have no cast bar, name or obvious visual effects. This has turned verbal and quantifiable information into nonverbal and unquantifiable information. That is one technique to make it harder.

The second technique, is to increase the amount of one-shot kill skills for boss encounters. Surely, for those who value competition over collaboration, this brings them the adrenaline rush, and it serves them very well.

However, it is the same old path Blade and Soul Online once walked. The major consequence is the drastic reduction of the error tolerance, and thus the surge in stress levels in the player base. In turn, it fosters perfectionism and a false sense of superiority, causing schism and alienation among us players. As a consequence, expect way more toxicity in the player community. This is not our fault, but the unintended consequence of SE's game design.

It is SE's game, it is their call. I, for one, can handle the mechanics, but if the toxicity reaches the BnS level, sorry then♥

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Every mechanic has a clear tell. You just have to look at the boss instead of staring at your skill bar because you haven't memorized your rotation.

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Originally Posted by Katachthon

In most boss fights of older expansions, most mechanics either have very obvious visual effects or a cast bar with the name of the boss skill, so one can use these as a clue to react. In this expansion, they added some skills that have no cast bar, name or obvious visual effects. This has turned verbal and quantifiable information into nonverbal and unquantifiable information. That is one technique to make it harder.

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Can you give an example of a mechanic like this?

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Originally Posted by Mikitan

I know at least for me this game has gone from casual fun to just abandoning duty 90% of the time for these new dungeons after I've been raised the 5th time in the 1st boss fight. I am trying to enjoy learning pictomancer but I am spending more time running than casting. I don't begrudge people having harder modes to play, but it is just straight up embarrassing for me now to a point I am having anxiety pushing through the MSQ. I feel like I am a burden, a waste of time, and the people on the forums seems to agree with that assessment... if you have a problem with this insane difficulty... unsub and leave, they got what they want and anyone below them has no place here. What happened to this community?

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Ngl I'd struggle to call this insane difficulty. It's not all that difficult. Yes, it absolutely is a step up from before, but it's not to the point where you'd be expected to see a guide beforehand - it just requires you to learn the fights a little bit. Which yeah, is gonna suck the first few times running it. For the most part, things have been decently intuitive.

I personally struggled seeing the telegraph for the first boss in Tender Valley, but after asking in a dungeon and having it explained to me, it makes sense.

Honestly the difficulty has not been raised at all, if you are talking about the ex dungeons how about just do mechanics over dps. They are not hard and even the dungeons have guides online. They are so easy I a, old now and still can do it fine. My reaction time sucks and this is great. If you can’t p,ya do trusts. They do mechanics and all you have to do is stand and follow the,.

Ironically, they added a massive hint right in your face for mechanics that used to be identified by looking at the attack name (Ghost/Fleshbuster) or boss stance (tri-birb and its beak) so you can't really say that has been more difficult.
The amount of one-shot mechanics hasn't noticably increased either - remember Titan (a story trial mind you) you could actually fall permanently!

So the real problem is that people got too comfortable not being able to fail to the point they aren't even trying. They aren't used to see a game-over screen anymore or stumble or heck even die at least once lol and not they call it "casual game". It really is a visual novel with auto clicker "fights" where you go in/out, left/right, spread/stack.

The only interesting bits this time around that made it "harder" is the encounter started to experiment with new stuff again (something YoshiP and his team stopped doing because of players) so it's nice to see some mini games like the labyrinth sprinkled into your striking dummy fight for once

God I hate how much this game has gotten easier from casuals. I remember when titan story mode had us knocked off the edge looking up at players as the beat it. Or when leveling dungeons got you ready for end game content that’s what leveling dungeons are supposed to do. Now they even went in and made level 32 dungeons easier and brain dead. People that are complaining have ruined this game and either need to only do msq, hunts, etc or need to find something else. I quit because how brain dead it became and finally it’s getting good again. Stop ruining the game for people that like to do anything other then press o)e button and clear everything on first try.

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Originally Posted by Mikitan

I know at least for me this game has gone from casual fun to just abandoning duty 90% of the time for these new dungeons after I've been raised the 5th time in the 1st boss fight. I am trying to enjoy learning pictomancer but I am spending more time running than casting. I don't begrudge people having harder modes to play, but it is just straight up embarrassing for me now to a point I am having anxiety pushing through the MSQ. I feel like I am a burden, a waste of time, and the people on the forums seems to agree with that assessment... if you have a problem with this insane difficulty... unsub and leave, they got what they want and anyone below them has no place here. What happened to this community?

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I don’t think you understand what casual fun is. Casual fun is doing fates and treasure maps. Dungeons have to be harder than pressing one button and never moving. This is great and it’s still a step down from what the game used to be . Thank god they made it a lil more fun if you don’t want to learn do maps.

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Originally Posted by Mikitan

I know at least for me this game has gone from casual fun to just abandoning duty 90% of the time for these new dungeons after I've been raised the 5th time in the 1st boss fight. I am trying to enjoy learning pictomancer but I am spending more time running than casting. I don't begrudge people having harder modes to play, but it is just straight up embarrassing for me now to a point I am having anxiety pushing through the MSQ. I feel like I am a burden, a waste of time, and the people on the forums seems to agree with that assessment... if you have a problem with this insane difficulty... unsub and leave, they got what they want and anyone below them has no place here. What happened to this community?

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At the start of the fight you can do your whole burst without a single mechanic happening, you have a 2nd hammer that you can cast without casting time 3 times to move around. Your 1-1-1 gives you holy that doesn't have cast time, and you can save them, you have a swiftcast that is now buffed. If you can't slide-cast, you can just save up holy and use them when you want to move. People are seriously exaggerating.

You blame the community when this community has done everything to help you out. There are videos, guides, posts, people explaining to you how to do the mechanics and even Duty Support where you can literally follow the npc's around, and you still can't do a basic task. No my friend it's not the community who is bad, it's you who despite all this help won't help yourself. You can't expect everyone to keep holding your hand and ride a bike with training wheels. You are level 100, not level 20 in Sastasha. If despite playing for so long you still can't improve go check it out with a doctor. Or if you're just lazy and can't focus and learn, just realise this game isn't for you, and you should play singleplayer games without battle content or city builder's etc.

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Originally Posted by Katachthon

The dungeon and trial difficulty has been increased in Dawntrail. Here is my analysis on the techniques and the consequences of it, as a veteran MMORPG player.

In most boss fights of older expansions, most mechanics either have very obvious visual effects or a cast bar with the name of the boss skill, so one can use these as a clue to react. In this expansion, they added some skills that have no cast bar, name or obvious visual effects. This has turned verbal and quantifiable information into nonverbal and unquantifiable information. That is one technique to make it harder.

The second technique, is to increase the amount of one-shot kill skills for boss encounters. Surely, for those who value competition over collaboration, this brings them the adrenaline rush, and it serves them very well.

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This is all well and good to say, but do you have any evidence to back this up? What specific attacks are you referring to that do not have clear tells or some sort of hint? How many oneshot kills are there in DT leveling dungeons and how does that compare to leveling dungeons in previous expansions?

I ask this because I did not notice either of these two points myself.

I feel like a lot of the complaints that 'this is way too hard suddenly' stem from players who are playing with trusts, and hoping to watch what they do to see where is safe to stand. Obviously, the issue with this is that they're super slow to get there, make it by the skin of their teeth, and in some cases, 'should have been hit' but dodge the attack because they've got trust privilege. So, rather than watch the trusts dodge right on the 99 dungeon elevator boss, get hit, wonder 'why didn't the trusts move sooner', instead it's on the player to look at the boss, the castbar, and try to discern 'why did the trusts go to the right?' (eg on that boss it's because it raised the fist on your left, so the left is not safe)

I worry that some players can't (or don't want to) associate boss' movements and their 'tells' with how the mechanics work, and would rather be told 'stand here' in a game of monkey see monkey do

Also, to be 'that guy', I don't recall us having complaints about dungeons having 'insane difficulty' when SCH had 3 DOTs and AST had the SB card system. It's almost like, if you take complexity out of the job's kits and move it to encounter design, this is the end result: encounters that are super unforgiving, full of oneshots (and if you die in a trust run, it's an instant reset even if you're not the healer), and exclude casuals because 'too hard'. Meanwhile, if a casual didn't juggle Bio/Bio2/Miasma's timers correctly in HW/SB, you'd... clear the dungeon 3 minutes slower. I know which design I'd rather have

Once I realized their fight design is based on more physically watched the bosses than awaiting ground AOE markings, things became a lot easier. I do t really think it’s any more difficult than previous expansions, it’s just different.

Personally I welcome the change.

Remember when they tried to have leveling dungeons the required you to watch something other than ground AoEs to avoid attacks?

Cutter's Cry Chimera? Coincounter in Aurum Vale?

Maybe people wrote to the forums that those bosses were too hard back then, too, but I'd wager most new players simply accepted that that's the game they were playing and learned to deal with them. That's the struggle with reversing course on design; doesn't matter how gradually it's done, it's gonna be painful to some.

Maybe if they didn't wantonly change some of those old bosses and tried to keep the power creep in older content more tame, it'd help more players keep broader expectations.

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Originally Posted by Mikitan

but it is just straight up embarrassing for me now to a point I am having anxiety pushing through the MSQ. I feel like I am a burden, a waste of time, and the people on the forums seems to agree with that assessment... if you have a problem with this insane difficulty... unsub and leave, they got what they want and anyone below them has no place here. What happened to this community?

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Why do people have this mentality that dying in a duty is the worst cardinal sin imaginable? It's a videogame. It is not a big deal and rarely do I see people get called out for it. And using the descriptor "insane difficulty" when compared to previous content is grossly hyperbolic and borders on disingenuous.

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Originally Posted by Katachthon

In most boss fights of older expansions, most mechanics either have very obvious visual effects or a cast bar with the name of the boss skill, so one can use these as a clue to react. In this expansion, they added some skills that have no cast bar, name or obvious visual effects. This has turned verbal and quantifiable information into nonverbal and unquantifiable information. That is one technique to make it harder.

The second technique, is to increase the amount of one-shot kill skills for boss encounters. Surely, for those who value competition over collaboration, this brings them the adrenaline rush, and it serves them very well.

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I actually challenge you to give me one example of any mechanic in dawntrail that doesn't have a tell. I can guarantee you every single last one of them has a castbar, animation, or other method of determining where to go and what to do. Whether or not you pay attention to them is your own issue, but they are all telegraphed and the visual language is better than it has ever been.

[QUOTE=Katachthon;6526945]The dungeon and trial difficulty has been increased in Dawntrail. Here is my analysis on the techniques and the consequences of it, as a veteran MMORPG player.

In most boss fights of older expansions, most mechanics either have very obvious visual effects or a cast bar with the name of the boss skill, so one can use these as a clue to react. In this expansion, they added some skills that have no cast bar, name or obvious visual effects.

The second technique, is to increase the amount of one-shot kill skills for boss encounters./QUOTE]
This is not a bash post, informative. Feel free to reply with where you think I am incorrect. Please use examples of your claims if your going to object.

Both of these statements are incorrect. The second statement first, as i'm lvlign viper and pictomancer through trust right now I can tell u this is no different then doing EW at release, as well as every previous expansion at release. if you are being one shotted your ilvl is too low. Which I have had many people in my parties that I don't even know how their ilvl allowed them into the dungeon. while the rest of the party was having half + hp and they were getting 1 shot. By the 97 dungeon the games is designed for you to be in the 95 dungeon/96 crafted gear. I always craft my 96 gear and the damage I take from the def gains and higher hp pool is much smaller than my counter parts running in 660 gear still. To the point when I was on blm I was a bad blm and got hit by stuff to get cast off cause I could handle 2 hits + the raid wide easily, without a heal.
The closer you are to the min ilvl of a dungeon the harder it is to do. While accessories add more vit they do not add more def.

Now to your first statement. I really want to make sure I approach this properly but nothing in that statement is correct. If you feel I am in wrong please feel free to ask about a boss. Every atk in these dungeons has a cast bar, visual indicator, and or names. Not a single mechanic in these dungeons is new to this game either. While some of the mechanics previously appeared in optional content. This is standard practice for every expansion is to take mechanics from optional/hard content, dumb them down, and put them onto dungeon bosses. This works as a way to train players on how to do these mechanics. Not a single mechanic is cueless. Most are multi cued. You are just missing the ques, and there can be multiple reasons for this. Camera zoomed too far in/not out far enough, not looking around the platform, bad hud layout ect.

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Originally Posted by JadeCurtiss

Why do people have this mentality that dying in a duty is the worst cardinal sin imaginable? It's a videogame. It is not a big deal and rarely do I see people get called out for it. And using the descriptor "insane difficulty" when compared to previous content is grossly hyperbolic and borders on disingenuous.

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The strangest part is that the game been “learn by dying from something” since 1.0.
You die to a mechanic, sometimes leading to a raid wipe. You pick yourselves back up and do your best not to repeat that.

Dying is a required mechanism in the game design. It always has been.
Maybe it’s people who never do anything more difficult than story content, but they gotta realize that death in the game is okay!