I'd rather have no MSQ and more dungeons and raids at this point . . .

DT's MSQ gets worse and worse and worse the further in you get.

I honestly think if this is the quality of story we're gonna get they should just cut their losses, do small side stories and no longer have an MSQ.

[spoiler rant below for story elements leading up to the level 97 dungeon]

So . . . OK after several more hours of boring cut scenes, boring talk to this person/find this person quests and absolutely ZERO COMBAT except for killing 3 mobs (WOWIE!) we finally get to this BIG build up about how we're gonna modify this train and its gonna be super cool and it's gonna have turrets and shields and all sorts of stuff.

Oh man, now we're going on the train! This has to be the dungeon...right?

Oh...it's not the dungeon...BUT we're manning one of the turrets! OK so it'll be a solo instanced fight right with new mechanics?

Oh...ok it's not?

O...oh...it's just a cut scene.

Like for real SE!? Piss off honestly with this garbage. I WANT TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING IN THE MSQ. I've never EVER been so mad at this game before.

Seriously what were they thinking with this!?

The sad irony is after many hours of slogging through the MSQ by the time the cutscene ended I was just too bored/tired to actually run the dungeon . . .

So yeah, just . . . throw in the towel SE and give us more combat content and slice of life content for the casuals. The time, effort, and money you're spending to make the MSQ just doesn't feel worth it any more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KurenXIV

DT's MSQ gets worse and worse and worse the further in you get.

I honestly think if this is the quality of story we're gonna get they should just cut their losses, do small side stories and no longer have an MSQ.

[spoiler rant below for story elements leading up to the level 97 dungeon]

So . . . OK after several more hours of boring cut scenes, boring talk to this person/find this person quests and absolutely ZERO COMBAT except for killing 3 mobs (WOWIE!) we finally get to this BIG build up about how we're gonna modify this train and its gonna be super cool and it's gonna have turrets and shields and all sorts of stuff.

Oh man, now we're going on the train! This has to be the dungeon...right?

Oh...it's not the dungeon...BUT we're manning one of the turrets! OK so it'll be a solo instanced fight right with new mechanics?

Oh...ok it's not?

O...oh...it's just a cut scene.

Like for real SE!? Piss off honestly with this garbage. I WANT TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING IN THE MSQ. I've never EVER been so mad at this game before.

Seriously what were they thinking with this!?

The sad irony is after many hours of slogging through the MSQ by the time the cutscene ended I was just too bored/tired to actually run the dungeon . . .

So yeah, just . . . throw in the towel SE and give us more combat content and slice of life content for the casuals. The time, effort, and money you're spending to make the MSQ just doesn't feel worth it any more.

---

*Plays a Story driven MMO then proceeds to complain about Story in a Story Driven MMO*

https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc...jBte/giphy.gif

Go play WoW for minimum lore/story and more combat, I mean it seriously FFXIV is not the game for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

*Plays a Story driven MMO then proceeds to complain about Story in a Story Driven MMO*

https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc...jBte/giphy.gif

Go play WoW for minimum lore/story and more combat, I mean it seriously FFXIV is not the game for you.

---

Your statement would be true if this expac was a game, the MSQ has no GAME, it's just watching other NPC's talk for 30 hours with functionally no gameplay inbetween.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malthir

Your statement would be true if this expac was a game, the MSQ has no GAME, it's just watching other NPC's talk for 30 hours with functionally no gameplay inbetween.

---

You don't like it you know what you need to do, don't let the door hit you on the way out seriously, all people on this forum do is whinge, just f'n leave, you won't be missed.

The sequence you mention also felt really strange to me because it was like the ultimate and perfect opportunity to get a rail-shooter sequence in the msq (just like that mini-game in the gold saucer btw, or one of the mecha sequence in Werlyt if I remember correctly ? so not something you'd have to fully implement from scratch).
To be honest I usually don't care for these type of sequence because I just don't enjoy them, but even this time it felt like a complete missed opportunity.

Oh bug off.

I've played since ARR launch. FFXIV used to be a game with a fantastic story and compelling gameplay interwoven to deliver a wonderful MMO experience.

With DT we are forced to go through a visual novel which you have to slog through just to get to the content which is engaging and fun.

When you're entering a new phase of the story, where in the last decade of lore has largely concluded, you have to make it interesting, engaging and fun for your long term players.

"Talk to Wuk Lamat" a billion times and getting exposition dumps on things is not good story telling or world building.

Having us not be involved in a meaningful way to the events occurring around us is not good story telling or world building.

By not engaging us with gameplay to make us feel invested in the world like the prior arcs had (from ARR through EW) you're just left with an empty husk of a story where you feel like you're just going through the motions.

Skip the story and buy a storyskip then.

Or don't play a storybased game in the first place. You're doing yourself a disservice.

I'd rather MSQ. HW and ShB were the best gaming experience I have ever had. As long as it's not "Mainly Shit Quests" that is.

Personally I actually quite like the story itself, but I will agree with the OP that some of the interactions are lacking a bit. There's been a few points in the game where I expected some sort of gameplay interaction (the example given a prime one) but it just turns out to be a cutscene.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

Skip the story and buy a storyskip then.

Or don't play a storybased game in the first place. You're doing yourself a disservice.

---

Again, I've played and enjoyed the entire MSQ story from ARR start through EW. I was here at the launch of ARR and I love the game. I tried to get as many friends as I could to play it because of the story and how engaged it made me feel as the player.

I came from WoW. I played WoW from Vanilla through MoP and I feel that XIV is the superior product because of its high production value and wonderfully rich story telling.

The direction of how they are handing the story and the quality of the story is just so bad this time around it's left the worst possible feeling with me.

This is coming from a player who has been subscribed for almost 11 years . . . not to say that should give more weight than anyone else's feeling but I find it amusing for others to come to think "Oh this isn't the game for you" when it literally has been the game for me, my main game, for the better part of a decade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KurenXIV

This is coming from a player who has been subscribed for almost 11 years . . . not to say that should give more weight than anyone else's feeling but I find it amusing for others to come to think "Oh this isn't the game for you" when it literally has been the game for me, my main game, for the better part of a decade.

---

Oh yeah. Remember, as soon as you don't like something- you need to leave!
A-and don't let the door hit you on the way out! Totally!

You're right, though.
I'd also absolutely prefer to trade off whatever energy was spent making these filler quests into at least one extra dungeon, or *anything* else

I will only take more MSQ if Ishikawa writes it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fioravictorine

I will only take more MSQ if Ishikawa writes it

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Cheers to that . . . she is an absolutely incredible talent.

I'd love to know what people who defend Dawntrail actually like about it? The pacing is the worst it has ever been, it retreads old ground in terms of story and themes and does them worse than previous expansions have. The cast has been over taken by a loud tropey writer's pet and the scions have been turned into wooden boards that occupy space. I won't deny there are a few decent moments at the end, but they all involve characters we've known for years and are still brought down pretty badly by being in an expansion that is 90% a slog to get through.

Give it a rest, she won't come back. She moved on. Also, its a team effort, it wasn't like Ishikawa did everything. There is a team behind her.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

Give it a rest, she won't come back. She moved on. Also, its a team effort, it wasn't like Ishikawa did everything. There is a team behind her.

---

There's an incredibly clear difference between how she writes and how others write.

Yes, you are correct in that it's a team effort but when one of the main selling points of your game is its story you have to have others who can decently fill the void their top writers leave when they aren't involved (for whatever reason).

Ishikawa understands how to write nuance, understands the various characters and how they would interact with others or react to a given scenario, she understands how to properly pace dialogue and conversations, and she is able to set up compelling scenarios with a great pay off.

I'm not saying it's easy to find someone like her but they have to either train their writers better or find writers more akin to Ishikawa.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Garolymar

I'd love to know what people who defend Dawntrail actually like about it? The pacing is the worst it has ever been, it retreads old ground in terms of story and themes and does them worse than previous expansions have. The cast has been over taken by a loud tropey writer's pet and the scions have been turned into wooden boards that occupy space. I won't deny there are a few decent moments at the end, but they all involve characters we've known for years and are still brought down pretty badly by being in an expansion that is 90% a slog to get through.

---

You are only going to get inane responses like:

- I love that it's so chill!!!

- I love Wuk Lamat!!

- I love the adventure!!!

I truly have not seen a single in-depth positive review that isn't just "I loved it tho", other than that one troll thread posted a while back.

It's really ironic that these are the same people saying "you need media literacy to like Dawntrail" when they don't seem to be able to produce a single iota of analysis of the story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

You don't like it you know what you need to do, don't let the door hit you on the way out seriously, all people on this forum do is whinge, just f'n leave, you won't be missed.

---

Ahhh yes because licking boots when you feel you've been handed a sub par product is surely the best way to try and influence a better, product. But don't worry too much buddy you can go back to hero worshiping people who keep lying to you, I've got 5 days left, I'm sure the rest of us have similar amounts of time so we'll all be outie and you can go back to waiting for about 6 hours to get a duty as the player count drop, enjoy. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

Skip the story and buy a storyskip then.

Or don't play a storybased game in the first place. You're doing yourself a disservice.

---

I love how FFXIV being a ''story based game'' mean that it can't have some rpg mob slaying part post Shadowbringer for some unknown reason...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

You are only going to get inane responses like:

- I love that it's so chill!!!

- I love Wuk Lamat!!

- I love the adventure!!!

I truly have not seen a single in-depth positive review that isn't just "I loved it tho", other than that one troll thread posted a while back.

It's really ironic that these are the same people saying "you need media literacy to like Dawntrail" when they don't seem to be able to produce a single iota of analysis of the story.

---

Most of the Dawntrail defense posts I've seen are identical to ones I saw on WoW's forums when it hit its first truly bad expansion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Garolymar

I'd love to know what people who defend Dawntrail actually like about it? The pacing is the worst it has ever been, it retreads old ground in terms of story and themes and does them worse than previous expansions have. The cast has been over taken by a loud tropey writer's pet and the scions have been turned into wooden boards that occupy space. I won't deny there are a few decent moments at the end, but they all involve characters we've known for years and are still brought down pretty badly by being in an expansion that is 90% a slog to get through.

---

The thought process is probably the following:
I liked the past story and presentation; therefore, I have to like the current story and presentation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

I love how FFXIV being a ''story based game'' mean that it can't have some rpg mob slaying part post Shadowbringer for some unknown reason...

---

It can't?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by genuine_stranger

The thought process is probably the following:
I liked the past story and presentation; therefore, I have to like the current story and presentation.

---

It's okey to like to too, you know. It's becoming a huge circle jerk of hating on each group. It is pretty sad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Most of the Dawntrail defense posts I've seen are identical to ones I saw on WoW's forums when it hit its first truly bad expansion.

---

Don't go on Metacritic. It's hilarious, all of the negative reviews are going out of their way to deliver a max length analysis of the best and worst aspects, typing up essays on what went wrong and how it might have been fixed... The positive reviews "haha, main character kitty go meow, also new locations have trees."

The expansion is a fever dream, I keep on waiting for the moment I wake up and learn it's not real. I question if I needed to get high in order to enjoy it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

It can't?

---

The game being story based dosen't mean we can't have more ''gameplay'' part during the MSQ. I said that cause your respond to someone asking for more gameplay was ''this a story based game''. It just weird to me that to get told that we can't have more gameplay cuz ''mah story mode''

Op is basically asking for something similar to ARR, we had less custscenes and alot more dungeons, you had tons of dungeons in ARR then the dungeon lay out and story changed in hard mode of the dungeon, which was usually due to what we did in the normal mode. Also the dungeons had their own storylines, most weren't connected to the MSQ, which personally I thought was a better way of doing it.

Bad take IMO.

It's a bad story but it isn't completely unsalvageable.

and personally for me, even if a story is bad, which I did find this one to be for a lot of it -- It still doesn't detract from some of the world building that goes on, and nor does it detract from the potential intrigue later down the line.

Edit (Just to add to this, even though they can still do the same with short stories, I don't think you can get the same intrigue as what you may get with an entire story dedicated to it, as I personally did find some intrigue there, learning about the two-headed Mamool Ja in Yak T'el was a refreshing experience and honestly led to quite a multi-dimensional character in Bakool Ja. Same thing with some of the revelations in Living Memory, they just didn't focus on some of those parts enough. So even though I don't like the story I can still find potential interest there.)

Content itself can quite as easily struggle with the same dilemma honestly. Dungeons can be a massive swing and a miss... They can also be a homerun. Same for the trials, and same for any regular raids that they do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

The game being story based dosen't mean we can't have more ''gameplay'' part during the MSQ. I said that cause your respond to someone asking for more gameplay was ''this a story based game''. It just weird to me that to get told that we can't have more gameplay cuz ''mah story mode''

---

That's not what I said and you know it.
OP was basically saying he don't want MSQ cause he doesn't like it and just want dungeons and raids. The game is still been advertised as a story first game and has always been.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

I love how FFXIV being a ''story based game'' mean that it can't have some rpg mob slaying part post Shadowbringer for some unknown reason...

---

That's the most frustrating part. I'm not a professional writer but I'm going to take a horribly handled cut scene and show how with some changes you can have the things I feel are missing. That is to say, a scene that makes sense in the context of the world, involvement from our character and action that moves the story forward.

[Spoiler warning for a segment that happens prior to that of my initial post]

Let's look at the cut scene where the former dawnservent is killed by his son. Here's what I'd change:

The scene can start out the same, the son tells the father to give up all the lands to him to control or he will kill him. The father declines. He says, much like he does in the original scene, how its his burden to bare and to put his son down for this betrayal. The scene plays out as it does right now.

However, once the son rises up Wak Lumat charges forward. In that moment, a trap is sprung. A beam of energy shoots up and traps her. Bound and floating in the energy beam she questions "what kind of magic is this!?". In that moment, energy begins to glow below us and suddenly everyone is trapped. We watch on as the fight ensues. Try as we might we cannot break free. One of the scions can remark that its as if their energy is being drains the more they struggle.

As the fight progresses the father takes a mortal wound and falls back. The son monologues a bit (because who doesn't love a good monologue) about the failings of his father and his siblings. How they preach peace yet they haven't seen what he has seen. He reflects on the horrors of the wars he's fought for the name of his country and concludes by saying that he will not be a failure of a leader like his father was. As he walks towards him we begin to glow, as we have before our energy surges and we break free. We jump forward and block the final blow the son was about to deliver.

Then we engage in a 1 v 1 fight with him. As the fight progresses we have the upper hand and are able to overcome even the sons new found tech, a final massive clash of energy could ensue and we will win. The sons armor is badly damaged and he flies backwards. He's stunned and angered at how this random stranger could best him and his new power in combat. In that moment some of the robot soldiers come in and begin to shoot at us and the father. We take the hits to shield the father and in that moment the son slinks away, remarking how this isn't over and he will be ruler of this world.

These changes would shows that we are a major character in the story, it makes the scene make sense as to why it plays out as it does, it sets up a conflict that we know as a player will have a pay off and it even gives us a chance to play the game.

Just one example of how things could have bee done better IMHO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Bad take IMO.

It's a bad story but it isn't completely unsalvageable.

and personally for me, even if a story is bad, which I did find this one to be for a lot of it -- It still doesn't detract from some of the world building that goes on, and nor does it detract from the potential intrigue later down the line.

Content itself can quite as easily struggle with the same dilemma honestly. Dungeons can be a massive swing and a miss... They can also be a homerun. Same for the trials, and same for any regular raids that they do.

---

Yeah I also don't think it's a good idea to delete MSQ entirely. One of the issues with the current MSQ, is it's trying to be an Epic story, but without the setup.

IMO it would have been better, to cut all the Wuk stuff down to literally the first zone, maybe the second, do not resolve the contest! Then zone 3 we go off with Eistinein and have an adventure were we meet some new NPC do some stuff adventuring dungeons exploring etc. Zone 4 Erenvilles little wildwest arc is fine. Then the second act begins

The attack on Tural, we rush back do a solo duty where we arrive a the far side of the bridge the Scions are all arriving too having seen the ships, a kind of holidays over type of scene. Then we all start kicking ass, fight our way back to the city with the other scions in the dutry. As we progress to the centre square you meet Bak, Wuk and Koana, they are fighting off the invaders side by side. We see a smaller ship head to the throne room. Fight plays out the same just as he goes for the killing blow though, WoL run over and just does a kick or punch basically the same as we do in the fight with the zenos cutscene. It backs off Zoraal and with most of his forces being destroyed he jumps onto his transport makes his threat that if we don't surrender he will come back and wipe out the city etc. Gulool still dies of injuries sustained.

Second Act

Plays out similar, we get little bit of strife in the siblings, they are getting along better but with no one currently declared the leader they are learning to share responsibilities. After we beat Zooral, Sphene does her there can be no peace speech, then teleports away taking the golden city portal the robot army and ships. We don't know where she's gone or what she's planning next. End of MSQ

I'm not a great writer but at least that would give us things going on it breaks up the monotonous cutscene info dumps where people just speak at you for like 20m and the constant series of speak to Wuk MSQ. It would also leave you with things to think about a potential new enemy we don't know much about. Who's going to be the next leader of Tural etc etc. Smaller stories to world build, it's like the writers were trying to write the conclusion to a long storyline they had only just started crafting a few hours ago.

There's plenty of people that can write better than me on this forum alone so I'm not suggesting my plot overview is better, just the idea of breaking the MSQ into small chunks of various stories leaving things open for further development and using more Solo Duties where the player gets to actually do stuff around the zones, would have been better than walk to the glowy circle and watch this for 5-10m

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

That's not what I said and you know it.
OP was basically saying he don't want MSQ cause he doesn't like it and just want dungeons and raids. The game is still been advertised as a story first game and has always been.

---

I just assume that OP using an overdramatic tittle to drag more view. OP said he like the story in previous Xpac and he made it clear he would just like more gameplay part instead of cutscene of action scene in some part. Sorry if I didn't understood your post at first, but for my PoV it seemed like you told him to buy a story skip cause he wanted more gameplay moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

That's not what I said and you know it.
OP was basically saying he don't want MSQ cause he doesn't like it and just want dungeons and raids. The game is still been advertised as a story first game and has always been.

---

No, I didn't say that. I said if this is the quality of the story we're getting going forward I'd rather have the game focus on it's strengths, which right now are it's dungeons and trials.

If it's advertised as story first then your story better be a banger. And when it's not (whether that's due to presentation, general writing, pacing, or all of those reasons and more) then it's fair to heavily scrutinize it.

Not to excuse my post but after suffering through the story for the past several days that scene just was my breaking point. My extreme reaction was "I just want to play the fun stuff, I no longer care about the MSQ stuff". If they can make a good MSQ then great but if this is how it'll be from now on then yeah I guess I'll just skip as much as possible to enjoy the actual good content or just unsub.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

It's okey to like to too, you know. It's becoming a huge circle jerk of hating on each group. It is pretty sad.

---

Oh, I know. I just partake in these discussions for my own amusement. I don't hate on the story, or rather, I can't hate on it, because my personal lowpoint was EW of any expansion so far. So DT is a massive step up for me
.
The premise of the DT msq isn't bad, really it's not. The presentation, delivery and the characters are just mid, subpar at worst. It's unnecessary drawn out, and CBU 3 desperately needed an editor for the story who would've cut out 30 - 40 % of the dialogue and pack it into larger side quests in which we could explore the various cultures on our own accord.

For what it's worth, the role quests are what I was hoping for we would've gotten in the msq.
They're small contained stories with an overarching plot and more on the brighter side.
Not for everyone of course, but I like my simple media too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

Skip the story and buy a storyskip then.

Or don't play a storybased game in the first place. You're doing yourself a disservice.

---

The OP didn't say they don't want a story in a game. They want a GOOD story. There's a massive difference.

The story in DT sucks. It just does. The pacing is horrendous, the writing is like B-tier soap opera bad, and there's almost no gameplay. I've loved the story through almost the whole journey up to this point(though Endwalker started to really grate on my nerves). There's just no excuse for how poor the story is here.

And I LOVE stories in my games. RPGs are my favorite genre. My favorite games of all time are all story-heavy JRPGs. I WISH DT had a story worth caring about, but it simply doesn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

You don't like it you know what you need to do, don't let the door hit you on the way out seriously, all people on this forum do is whinge, just f'n leave, you won't be missed.

---

Very poor attitude. People should complain when something they bought falls short of their expectation. It the right thing to do. And you will miss them when there is nobody left playing this game and it dies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

They want a GOOD story.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

The story in DT sucks. It just does.

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In your opinion, like this vocal minority we see here and on reddit.

Good thing its subjective and not everyone has the same taste then. I disliked SB story but you didn't see me going around bitching about the story being bad.
Cause I knew some people liked it.

DT story is fine, it's not bad but it's not great either. It will (probably) become better in 7.x.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

You don't like it you know what you need to do, don't let the door hit you on the way out seriously, all people on this forum do is whinge, just f'n leave, you won't be missed.

---

great community by the way

I'm glad story Andys are finally seeing how poor the gameplay experience of the MSQ is

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

In your opinion, like this vocal minority we see here and on reddit.

Good thing its subjective and not everyone has the same taste then. I disliked SB story but you didn't see me going around bitching about the story being bad.
Cause I knew some people liked it.

DT story is fine, it's not bad but it's not great either. It will (probably) become better in 7.x.

---

Absolutely this, most sensible take here tbh, I disliked HW and SB, I wasnt here crying up a storm and spitting my dummy out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by genuine_stranger

The thought process is probably the following:
I liked the past story and presentation; therefore, I have to like the current story and presentation.

---

To be fair this game has always had dreadful story presentation, which is why I'm a serial cutscene skipper. I don't want to watch 30 hours of mostly unvoiced, poorly animated cutscenes. That is nothing to say of the actual story of ARR to EW, but the presentation has never been good.

And now that the story is apparently bad (again I don't know what the story is, just going off what other people say), people are finally starting to notice how horrendous the actual presentation of the story is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LilyPendragon

To be fair this game has always had dreadful story presentation, which is why I'm a serial cutscene skipper. I don't want to watch 30 hours of mostly unvoiced, poorly animated cutscenes. That is nothing to say of the actual story of ARR to EW, but the presentation has never been good.

And now that the story is apparently bad (again I don't know what the story is, just going off what other people say), people are finally starting to notice how horrendous the actual presentation of the story is.

---

The funny thing is that people compare the story of DT to Naruto.
The sad part is that they're right. Hell, like somebody else mentioned, we even have a Pain at home called Zoraal Ja.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malthir

Yeah I also don't think it's a good idea to delete MSQ entirely. One of the issues with the current MSQ, is it's trying to be an Epic story, but without the setup.

There's plenty of people that can write better than me on this forum alone so I'm not suggesting my plot overview is better, just the idea of breaking the MSQ into small chunks of various stories leaving things open for further development and using more Solo Duties where the player gets to actually do stuff around the zones, would have been better than walk to the glowy circle and watch this for 5-10m

---

I think there's a thousand different things they could do if they wanted to make it interesting, to be honest. It is as you say it tried to be an epic story without the required build-up. So many former centerpiece characters were relegated to ther sideline, which is OK, but it is not OK when the character we're following doesn't get the needed growth to justify it. Like, we can say she got growth, but it wasn't in the right areas, it was largely underpinned by maintaining that which was already established; peace for 'her people'. Ultimately this only came at jeopardy for a small moment, which ultimately got watered down for her irrational care of trying to solve absolutely everything for everyone to the point where it came off as aggressive and forceful. (The whole scene in the final trial was absolutely unnecessary mid-trial.

This only ended up serving to keep her a fairly single-dimensional character, versus someone like Zoraal Ja and Bakool Ja to a lesser extent. I started off really hating both of them as characters, but ultimately came to actually enjoy where they were going. This is why I think this is a bad-take thread more than anything, because there were moments where they did actually show.

I am just hoping more than anything that it is only a temporary consequence of it being a new arc and them feeling out what directions they can take the story.