Last 2 dungeon bad design AGAIN

so it is again a bad design choise for at least 2 dungeons. buggy and hit boxes are out of place. SE pls get tester back not your own team.

I dunno about bad design. But I do agree these dungeons need to be re-worked.

But I completely disagree that this is fun or appropriate for MSQ difficulty.

And for anyone who enjoyed them. And found them easy. Why not both. Why not an easy mode variant for players who want to enjoy the story and for players who learn content differently.

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Originally Posted by Ori

I dunno about bad design. But I do agree these dungeons need to be re-worked.

But I completely disagree that this is fun or appropriate for MSQ difficulty.

And for anyone who enjoyed them. And found them easy. Why not both. Why not an easy mode variant for players who want to enjoy the story and for players who learn content differently.

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The dungeons already are easy mode. They can not get any more dumbed down without replacing the mobs with striking dummies.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

The dungeons already are easy mode. They can not get any more dumbed down without replacing the mobs with striking dummies.

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There are many people here in the forums bringing up how frustrating the content is.

Difficulty is not some grand solid fact. It is different for everyone. As well what I find easy, players like you find hard. Difficulty is not so simple.

Eh, Tender Valley is completely fine while most of Strayborough is fine save for the first boss which is more obnoxious than it is difficult.

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Originally Posted by Ori

Why not an easy mode variant for players who want to enjoy the story and for players who learn content differently.

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If you want easy mode , use Trust with NPC's, they never fail mechanics, they never wipe, it just takes twice as long to clear because their dps sucks.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

The dungeons already are easy mode. They can not get any more dumbed down without replacing the mobs with striking dummies.

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Not everyone can clear an Ultimate Raid.
Since you have, go prog DSR instead of calling people braindead because they touch grass.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

If you want easy mode , use Trust with NPC's, they never fail mechanics, they never wipe, it just takes twice as long to clear because their dps sucks.

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There aren't trust NPCs for the 2 optional dungeons in Shadowbringers, Endwalker, or Dawntrail.

Cenote and Strayborough have issues with the hitboxes of AoEs lagging behind their visual location.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

There aren't trust NPCs for the 2 optional dungeons in Shadowbringers, Endwalker, or Dawntrail.

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Oh good, maybe "Expert" Roulette has some meaning now, if you sturuggle with these simple mechanics, maybe you are not en "Expert"

Also i give you a big hint, getting hit by One thing is fine, just position yourself in a way that you don't get hit by two things at the time, just face tank it if you can't do the mechanic.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

The dungeons already are easy mode. They can not get any more dumbed down without replacing the mobs with striking dummies.

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It absolutely terrifies me that people genuinely want these dungeons to be ‘weaker’. As you say they the entire thing would literally just become a striking dummy at that point.

As someone who has practically never touched savage extremes or ultimates I still find it bizarre that people are classifying the new dungeons as ‘so hard it literally cannot be completed’. Like did you try turning off Netflix and paying attention first?

As a healer 90% of the time when I fail a mechanic I can literally just Lustrate myself back to full, the only exception is the occasional one-shot mechanic (which isn’t as frequent as you’d think). On Bard same but with Second Wind.

Honestly I can’t help but wonder how many people struggling with these dungeons get ‘literally not healing healers’ and that’s why they think it’s so difficult/overtuned. I really hate the “tHe oNlY hP tHaT maTteRs iS tHe fInaL dIgIt’. It’s bred a bunch of healers who’ve spent literal years developing bad habits and an inexplicable disdain for having to heal others. Like, of course you can just slap them with an oGCD and they should be ok. But if they’re new and have failed mechanics once or twice for before like for the love of god at least give them a shield or something; at least try and help them.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

If you want easy mode , use Trust with NPC's, they never fail mechanics, they never wipe, it just takes twice as long to clear because their dps sucks.

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They are absolutely programmed to screw up now and then. I usually park myself over Alisaie and she will just keep casting in certain places instead of booking out of the dead zone

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Originally Posted by Ori

And for anyone who enjoyed them. And found them easy. Why not both. Why not an easy mode variant for players who want to enjoy the story and for players who learn content differently.

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They had a terrific opportunity to do this with dungeons when they introduced trusts (later renamed Duty Support). Sadly, they felt the best solution was not to make versions of dungeons that their NPC AI could handle and leave the original or more interestingly designed versions for human players, but instead to just hammer everything into a one size fits all shape.

Their goal wasn't to improve the game as a multiplayer experience but to just make sure you could play it alone to the DETRIMENT of its own design.

Also you can't bring 1 or 2 trust allies to a group you have with a friend or make nonstandard parties with trusts because the devs ironically do not trust players.

Pretty sure the only time NPCs mess up is if they're scripted to do so in a trial, if they get hit on trash it's because you pulled the enemies in a funny way that caused their AoEs to overlap in a funny way that they couldn't avoid them. They only dodge the first thing thrown at them; if they're already dodging and the spot they commit to dodging to is targeted after, they'll just stay in it and take the hit because they're still in their first 'dodge the attack' procedure, which also interrupts all damage and healing they do until like 3 seconds pass.

Also, Alphi gets stuck spamming Eukrasian Prognosis if he's on an incline or some of the party is out of range of it, without making any effort to reposition himself. It's a very bare minimum effort at AI that all our future dungeons and many Trial designs now must suffer for...

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Originally Posted by Ori

There are many people here in the forums bringing up how frustrating the content is.

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Reading the posts on this category it's mostly the same 3-4 people agreeing with one another. It makes me want to post just to counter them as I don't want the only feedback seen being the same people asking for a difficulty decrease.

Difficulty is good and should be going up as the levels increase. Someone in another thread said the 3 Expert Dungeons were "Dark Souls difficulty" which is ridiculous.

Yeah I don't see many complaints about Alexandria. The only thing I've seen get any kind of notice is the first boss of Strayborough, and that's more because it's annoying rather than a hard wall.

Besides glare and visual fatigue in some dungeons, the only issue when it comes to fights themselves is the first boss of Stayborough with a bad ping. I had adds passing right through me and nothing happened while I got stunned by adds that appeared 5 ft away on my screen. It’s not a difficulty problem though but a net code issue.

It's insane to me that people want easier content, part of the fun is getting challenging stuff to do, not just roll your face on the keyboard and expect to clear it.

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Originally Posted by Gilihere

It's insane to me that people want easier content, part of the fun is getting challenging stuff to do, not just roll your face on the keyboard and expect to clear it.

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The dungeons are not difficult. Sure you may die to some mechanics the first time around (like the cacti with flowers in one of the lvl 100
dungeons) but once you’ve seen it, you know what those cacti do and where you have to stand. Some people just want braindead hack and slash and refuse to observe the environment and do a bare minimum of thinking to figure out mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Post

They had a terrific opportunity to do this with dungeons when they introduced trusts (later renamed Duty Support). Sadly, they felt the best solution was not to make versions of dungeons that their NPC AI could handle and leave the original or more interestingly designed versions for human players, but instead to just hammer everything into a one size fits all shape.

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Trusts shouldn’t be easier by default. I use trusts to unlock dungeons and experience the story without being in a rush (and skip the queue for dps jobs). I also like use them as a transition between the dummy and real people groups when trying a new job to see how it feels.

Also, making them easier would also affect other upcoming content such as normal raids and alliance raids where those same people unable to clear a story mode dungeon will come crying and ask for easier versions to the detriment of everyone else. The gap between story mode dungeons and Savage in EW was huge and there was very little for those who like a bit of challenge without investing too much time. Same with the gap between variant dungeons which were a snooze fest even in solo vs criterion.

Disagree. These are some of the most fun dungeons i've done in a while. I especially love the amount of aoe damage some of the trash packs can pull off. As these are not required for anything, it's fine to have them be different

The only real issue I have with the two optional dungeons is that Deadwalk Boss 1 is not fun. This is a different and much greater sin than being too hard or too easy.

It's a real shame Leonogg is like that because the teapot thing (forgot it's name) and Traumerei are great, especially Traumerei where you do have a lot of mechanics to resolve but not at the cost of actually pressing your buttons.

Generalizing both dungeons because of one boss in one dungeon is once again exaggerating, none of the other bosses/mobs have any issues

What's a real issue is that the devs makes msq dungeons harder than they need to be considering the casual fanbase.

I'm all for harder dungeons but having like 2 dungeons to rotation around in expert roulette is quite sad.

They kept taking away "optional" dungeons with every expansion. Sure the quality of the dungeons have gone up but if players are gone a have to queue everyday for a dungeons, having more than 2 dungeons to rotate from at least adds some variety. The novelty of cool dungeon visuals wears thin if someone has to see it everyday.

The difficulty of the dungeons is fine but they should really add back side dungeons that to offset "harder dungeons" instead of shoving them into msq dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

The gap between story mode dungeons and Savage in EW was huge and there was very little for those who like a bit of challenge without investing too much time. Same with the gap between variant dungeons which were a snooze fest even in solo vs criterion.

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100% this and you don't need to go that far even the gap between trials and extremes were enourmous, lets not get started in variant dungeons those were a doozy.

I find that the current dungeons and trials dificulty are acceptable and making it easier will only deepen the gap between casuals.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

What's a real issue is that the devs makes msq dungeons harder than they need to be considering the casual fanbase.

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They really don't, needing a little bit more attention does not equate to extra difficulty

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

They kept taking away "optional" dungeons with every expansion. Sure the quality of the dungeons have gone up but if players are gone a have to queue everyday for a dungeons, having more than 2 dungeons to rotate from at least adds some variety. The novelty of cool dungeon visuals wears thin if someone has to see it everyday.

The difficulty of the dungeons is fine but they should really add back side dungeons that to offset "harder dungeons" instead of shoving them into msq dungeons.

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That we can agree, having more variety of optional dungeons would be great.

Tender Valley is my favorite new dungeon so far in DT. I love everything about it. Though the last boss gives me a headache with that certain mechanic I’m sure most of you know what I’m talking about lol.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Tender Valley is my favorite new dungeon so far in DT. I love everything about it. Though the last boss gives me a headache with that certain mechanic I’m sure most of you know what I’m talking about lol.

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It's easier than the time it was in O3.

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Originally Posted by ModestLP

so it is again a bad design choise for at least 2 dungeons. buggy and hit boxes are out of place. SE pls get tester back not your own team.

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Your refusal to learn cues other than the orange on the floor is not a design flaw with the dungeons, it is a skill issue.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

It's easier than the time it was in O3.

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Ohhhhh right lol.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Tender Valley is my favorite new dungeon so far in DT. I love everything about it. Though the last boss gives me a headache with that certain mechanic I’m sure most of you know what I’m talking about lol.

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If it's the one I think you mean, there's an easy trick. Look at the safespot corner, then trace the arrow path backwards from there.

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Originally Posted by Ori

There are many people here in the forums bringing up how frustrating the content is.

Difficulty is not some grand solid fact. It is different for everyone. As well what I find easy, players like you find hard. Difficulty is not so simple.

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But then dungeons should get nerfed, but not till new dungeons come along same way trials/savage get echo etc.

Im glad the patch msq dungeons weren't piss easy. The first boss is annoying in the Halloween one, yes, but it's moreso an annoyance then downright hard.
I love that you actually have to think about what's going on in these fights (espically in Tender Valley).

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

What's a real issue is that the devs makes msq dungeons harder than they need to be considering the casual fanbase.

I'm all for harder dungeons but having like 2 dungeons to rotation around in expert roulette is quite sad.

They kept taking away "optional" dungeons with every expansion. Sure the quality of the dungeons have gone up but if players are gone a have to queue everyday for a dungeons, having more than 2 dungeons to rotate from at least adds some variety. The novelty of cool dungeon visuals wears thin if someone has to see it everyday.

The difficulty of the dungeons is fine but they should really add back side dungeons that to offset "harder dungeons" instead of shoving them into msq dungeons.

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Expert roulette has always included MSQ dungeons since ARR. It also included optional dungeons, but it's always been just 2 or 3 dungeons, despite the volume of dungeons being made, more dungeons just meant they just rotated out more quickly. So the idea of separating MSQ dungeons and "hard expert" dungeons has always been kinda off, because either it means they have to change how expert roulette has always worked (which I'd be fine with tbh, depending on the change), or expert roulette just has a very wild difficulty difference (based on whether you get a MSQ or Actual Expert dungeon), or they have to create a bunch more expert dungeons just for the expert roulette in the post-patches (which they stopped doing to use those resources on other content people like more, which I don't think people would want them to reverse just for expert roulette). I assume SE's not going to do any of those soon though, so as has always been, expert dungeons and MSQ dungeons should be expected to be the same difficulty. I don't think there's a problem with that though.

The real issue isn't making MSQ dungeons harder, it's having not made them harder earlier. The current state of dungeons isn't that difficult, it's just a shock because XIV has done so much to make the MSQ an "on rails" experience that's hard to ever fail at, that the game goes from a 2/10 difficulty to a 5 or 6/10. That sudden jump is why so many people shy away from extreme trials, and if you manage to convince them to come with you, oftentimes they go "oh hey, that wasn't actually that bad", because it wasn't actually too hard for them, the jump was just intimidating. But jumping up a 5 foot wall is hard for most people, when a staircase would've made getting up there much easier.

Current dungeons are good, but older dungeons should have done more to prepare everyone for them.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

Not everyone can clear an Ultimate Raid.
Since you have, go prog DSR instead of calling people braindead because they touch grass.



There aren't trust NPCs for the 2 optional dungeons in Shadowbringers, Endwalker, or Dawntrail.

Cenote and Strayborough have issues with the hitboxes of AoEs lagging behind their visual location.

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God, what an insufferable comment. Imagine comparing regular dungeons to ultimates just because you struggle to understand snapshot timings after over 500 hours played. Most ultimate raiders touch grass and have lives. Far more than people who whinge on the forums when they lack the basic pattern recognition and object permanence to follow mechanics in normal content of all things.

Just focus on dodging you will be fine

These are the most fun I've had in normal content for years. I haven't noticed anything buggy about it, the snapshots are the same as everything else in the game. I really hope the devs don't take this criticism seriously, because people who are happy with it are quiet - and I've been overall floored by how fun DT's normal content is because they started being creative again.

I think the difficulty is fair. If you get hit, you won't usually die - it is flexible BECAUSE it's normal content. I haven't yet had a roulette fail because people couldn't do it, though sometimes a boss takes two tries.

Tender Valley is perfect and there isn't anything off about it - Deadwalk is a bit spicier but the first boss is clearly tuned to have not much HP because they expect you to spend a significant amount of time out of action. You are allowed to have downtime and focus on mechanics and you will get through it - but yes, you will get caught out because it is random. Raiders are getting grabbed too, it just is how the fight is designed - it's perfectly FINE to get hit because the DPS required is very lenient, and you won't usually die unless you're particularly unlucky with where you get stunned.

Finally, these aren't MSQ dungeons. People saying MSQ dungeons shouldn't have this level of difficulty are barking up the wrong tree.

The dungeons are great. The only thing is the hitbox on the ghost lalafell. But it's not like you die when you get immobilized. The healer can save you if they're paying attention and only one person gets trapped

No rework needed. Maybe just hit box adjustment.

I've cleared 1(one) savage fight and progged a second, the dungeons are not hard, you just need to be willing to fail.

I was watching my friend, who is brand new, do the Hall of the Novice last night. Interesting tidbit from the DPS lessons was that they teach you to "not be afraid to disengage to not get hit". His Royal Headness Leonogg I is a great example of this. If you stay right in the middle and stay engaged with the boss you will most likely get swarmed by adds who are running through his hitbox. If you disengage for all of 4 seconds and then go back in the fight becomes significantly more manageable.

Not relevant to being grabbed when you thought you dodged but hey just something I found interesting. A lesson you learn at level 15 is relevant at level 100. :)

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Originally Posted by Ori

I dunno about bad design. But I do agree these dungeons need to be re-worked.

But I completely disagree that this is fun or appropriate for MSQ difficulty.

And for anyone who enjoyed them. And found them easy. Why not both. Why not an easy mode variant for players who want to enjoy the story and for players who learn content differently.

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The easy mode is "queue in as a dps and sit back and let the trusts handle it." Then you spend boss fights just....avoiding mechanics. That's it. You don't dps at all. You just avoid all the avoidable damage you can. You don't even have to press any damage buttons. The Trust damage will scale up to accommodate for your lack of personal damage.