concerning Monk changes

the changes to the combo system look... very worrying. it feels like a very unnecessary amount of work to try and achieve the same playfeel by making a less intuitive to understand gauge element when it could've just been left alone just fine.

I will need the tooltips from the media tour to truly understand this change and say for certain, but if it's as bad as I think it is then MNK is going to feel a whole lot worse by enforcing a more rigid combo cycle on it.

i might be wrong but I think its not gonna be 'rigid combo cycle', more like something to make you can play the job without having to constantly to pay attention to your buff & dot icons. I play all the jobs decently and yes the most painful part of mnk is having to spend so much time checking buff timers to make sure I use the right skill. if the play style, feel, & the rotation will still be the same as it is now then it is a welcome change.

For me did it sounds like, that it will be more like all the other meele classes.

Im neutral to it and need to see more. For the moment can i not image the changes much (because of low time, did i jumped most of the trailer).

The changes sounded overall positive to me tbh:

Overflow of chakra is nice during brotherhood
more unique combo system to boost the next attack of that form seems a lot like Viper could be based on their presentation
finally a ranged attack even though I hope that will make six-sided star bit more viable

It sounds like for the most part we will be hitting the same buttons, yeah? Like it's kind of muddy coming out of blitz but otherwise you alternate your raptor stance attacks as it is now, and you will probably have to in this update. Coeurl is where it's more interesting right now, and ultimately it's getting into optimization territory and we don't know how optimization will look right now until we get it in our hands.

Chakra overflow on Brotherhood is good, tho! Should be way less stressful.

I need more time (and information) to process it all, but I am devastated at the loss of Optimal Drift. A surprise MNK rework was the last thing I was expecting - I felt like Endwalker MNK had a fantastic foundation to build upon, so why the need for sweeping changes?

The gameplay preview felt very SMN-like to me... build your legos, consume your legos, repeat. Which I suppose is no accident, seeing as Endwalker SMN was such a resounding success among the playerbase. I should have expected this. I'll wait and see in case I'm missing something. Maybe there's hidden depth waiting to be seen at the Media Tour, but I sincerely doubt it, considering how much effort the devs have gone into removing depth from this game since Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Silhart

I need more time (and information) to process it all, but I am devastated at the loss of Optimal Drift. A surprise MNK rework was the last thing I was expecting - I felt like Endwalker MNK had a fantastic foundation to build upon, so why the need for sweeping changes?

The gameplay preview felt very SMN-like to me... build your legos, consume your legos, repeat. Which I suppose is no accident, seeing as Endwalker SMN was such a resounding success among the playerbase. I should have expected this. I'll wait and see in case I'm missing something. Maybe there's hidden depth waiting to be seen at the Media Tour, but I sincerely doubt it, considering how much effort the devs have gone into removing depth from this game since Shadowbringers.

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Let's not assume optimal drift/something like it is gone yet. Wait until the media tour

I dislike the proposed Monk changes and hope they revert them. It was interesting before, no need to do what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

Let's not assume optimal drift/something like it is gone yet. Wait until the media tour

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I'm holding onto hope that I am wrong in my predictions. But it's hard to imagine what form Optimal Drift would take without the pressure of timers to drive decision-making.

Okay so basically rather than buffs/a DOT you now have buffing GCDs and spending GCDS.

Dragon Kick gives you one "pip" of buffed nu-bootshine. Twin Snakes gives you two pips of buffed nu-true strike. Demolish gives you three pips of buffed nu-snap punch.

So the rotation outside of burst window is essentially the same, but now people don't have to watch buff timers and can look at the shiny Job Guage™.

With this in mind one guaranteed change is that we no longer need to refresh twin snakes buff before PB. Maybe a bit of complexity lost but not a big deal imo. As for how the 2 min burst window plays out I think that needs some more in-deptth theorycrafting. So we probably won't have the exact optimal drift as before but maybe in exchange you may need to think about having enough "pips" so that your Rising Phoenix PB sequence doesn't use unbuffed GCDs during party buffs. Maybe someone smarter than me can visualize this better or we can wait until media tour

I don't think there is enough info to truly say how it is going to play. Just to give a play by play on the GCDs and what the job gauge does:

First, lets establish the new gauge, 3 icons, assuming to represent Opo-opo, Raptor and Coeurl, each with 3 empty pips of 1, 2 and 3 respectively.

After the Thunder clap, we use Dragon Kick, which fills up the Opo-opo gauge [1,0,0], then Twin Snakes which fills up 2 Raptor [1,2,3], then Demolish to fill up 3 Coeurl [1,2,3].

Perfect Balance is used, starting with an upgraded Opo-Opo [0,2,3], Dragon Kick [1,2,3], Opo-Opo upgrade [0,2,3] into what I can assume is an Elixir Field upgrade.

Next Perfect Balance, starts off with an upgraded Opo-Opo (bear in mind, the Opo-Opo pip was empty before this), upgraded Raptor [0,1,3], upgraded Coeurl [0,1,2], then Phantom Rush. Nothing else after this point changes these pips.

I think the most interesting point is the weirdness of the Opo-Opo pip. Your first instinct is that, in order to get an upgrade to your stance attack, you need a pip, however, at the start of the second Perfect Balance, the attack was still upgraded, despite no pip being lit up. The only change here is Brotherhood, but if that automatically upgrades your actions, why is it the Raptor and Coeurl lose a pip? It also makes no sense why it would only work on 1 action, but that is all I can come up with, or there is an extra effect to PB/Masterful Blitzes we do not know about.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I think the most interesting point is the weirdness of the Opo-Opo pip. Your first instinct is that, in order to get an upgrade to your stance attack, you need a pip, however, at the start of the second Perfect Balance, the attack was still upgraded, despite no pip being lit up. The only change here is Brotherhood, but if that automatically upgrades your actions, why is it the Raptor and Coeurl lose a pip? It also makes no sense why it would only work on 1 action, but that is all I can come up with, or there is an extra effect to PB/Masterful Blitzes we do not know about.

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As of now, after using a blitz, you get the Formless Fist buff. My guess is that in DT the buff instead gives you access to an upgraded weaponskill for free, but since the player immediately used PB again, the buff carried over into the PB window.

I love monk and played it for years now but I will say staring at the dot timer and buf timer got really tiresome after so many years. I made the icons bigger to keep better track of things etc but honestly I am glad of a little shake up and if the feel remains the same I am happy. Bonus points for the animations looking great too!

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Originally Posted by SomeGuy22

As of now, after using a blitz, you get the Formless Fist buff. My guess is that in DT the buff instead gives you access to an upgraded weaponskill for free, but since the player immediately used PB again, the buff carried over into the PB window.

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The first thing that happens is Form Shift, which also gives Formless Fist, with the first GCD being Dragon Kick.

Depressing. I want 5.4 Monk back.

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Originally Posted by Ianmaru

i might be wrong but I think its not gonna be 'rigid combo cycle', more like something to make you can play the job without having to constantly to pay attention to your buff & dot icons. I play all the jobs decently and yes the most painful part of mnk is having to spend so much time checking buff timers to make sure I use the right skill. if the play style, feel, & the rotation will still be the same as it is now then it is a welcome change.

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They could have made it so that the gauge was color coded for how far off the buffs/dots were to drop off. Like have it show red if it were ~3 gcd duration left.

So to correct some people, the pips do not give you an upgraded GCD animation. The GCDs always look like that but the pip will increase their potency. So using them without a pip is a damage loss.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

So the rotation outside of burst window is essentially the same, but now people don't have to watch buff timers and can look at the shiny Job Guage™.

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This hinges on the specifics of the new resources built by Twin Snakes (Raptor Gauge) and Demolish (Coeurl Gauge). If the Raptor gauge buffs all Raptor form GCDs and the Coeurl Gauge buffs all Coeurl form GCDs, then the rotation remains as is. If they just buff True Strike and Snap Punch it's gonna get weird.

Right now Monk's downtime rotation is as follows. I've put what the new gauges will sit at if we need to use them gauge to buff the reapplication of Twin Snakes and Demolish in parenthesis to illustrate how it will look if it doesn't change. I'm just calling them O, R and C for Opo Opo, Raptor, and Coeurl gauges respectively.

DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:2 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:2)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:0>2 C:1)
Bs>TrS>Dem (O:0 R:1 C:O>3)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:0>2 C:2)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:1)
DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:0>2 C:0>3)

However if the new resource only buffs True Strike and Snap Punch then what the rotation turns into is:

DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:2 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:2)
DK>TrS>SP (O:1 R:0 C:1)
BS>TwS>SP (O:0 R:2 C:0)
DK>TrS>Dem (O:1 R:1 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:0 C:2)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:2 C:1)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:0)
DK>TrS>Dem (O:1 R:0 C:3)
BS>TwS>SP (O:0 R:2 C:2)
DK>TrS>SP (O:1 R:1 C:1)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:0 C:0)

Which is a huge change to Monk's gameplay outside of its burst window.

At the risk of expressing a heterodox opinion in favor of the game, I'll say that the short buff/dot tracking is almost entirely what keeps me from playing MNK (that and the fact that NIN is itself so great), but that I will almost certainly level MNK in DT because of these changes ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Gotta be honest, the MNK changes look good. DOT, and buff "management" is being replaced with what seems to be an additional layer of chakra management.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

This hinges on the specifics of the new resources built by Twin Snakes (Raptor Gauge) and Demolish (Coeurl Gauge). If the Raptor gauge buffs all Raptor form GCDs and the Coeurl Gauge buffs all Coeurl form GCDs, then the rotation remains as is. If they just buff True Strike and Snap Punch it's gonna get weird.

Right now Monk's downtime rotation is as follows. I've put what the new gauges will sit at if we need to use them gauge to buff the reapplication of Twin Snakes and Demolish in parenthesis to illustrate how it will look if it doesn't change. I'm just calling them O, R and C for Opo Opo, Raptor, and Coeurl gauges respectively.

DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:2 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:2)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:0>2 C:1)
Bs>TrS>Dem (O:0 R:1 C:O>3)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:0>2 C:2)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:1)
DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:0>2 C:0>3)

However if the new resource only buffs True Strike and Snap Punch then what the rotation turns into is:

DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:2 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:2)
DK>TrS>SP (O:1 R:0 C:1)
BS>TwS>SP (O:0 R:2 C:0)
DK>TrS>Dem (O:1 R:1 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:0 C:2)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:2 C:1)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:0)
DK>TrS>Dem (O:1 R:0 C:3)
BS>TwS>SP (O:0 R:2 C:2)
DK>TrS>SP (O:1 R:1 C:1)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:0 C:0)

Which is a huge change to Monk's gameplay outside of its burst window.

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I think its not going to be like that. I think we're not supposed to drop R & C pips to 0, so the rotation will still be the same as how it currently is.

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Originally Posted by Ianmaru

I think its not going to be like that. I think we're not supposed to drop R & C pips to 0, so the rotation will still be the same as how it currently is.

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But, there is no reason to suggest that or why that would be the the case. I basically came to the same conclusion SpeckledBurd did.

Another thing to ponder is whether Bootshine is going to keep the auto crit or not. It is never used at anything other than max Chakra (it is never used when under Brotherhood, however, it also seems GCDs under Brotherhood don't generate a Chakra either, which I hope isn't the case).

Another thing I want to point out is at the end of the Monk showcase, RoE, RoW and RoF. It seems there are actions that proc off of them. RoE has an aura, similar to current PvP RoE. RoW and RoF is where it gets interesting. They are both elemental Hadoukens and they have the GCD yellow VFX. This suggests to me they are available when RoW and RoF are used and are likely to be in the burst window. I also want to speculate that RoW will have some other mechanic we do not see, considering RoF does give a Chakra (or it just crit/auto crit).

There are still many thing we do not know which both makes me excited and nervous for the tool tips to come out of the media tour.

I found the reasoning behind checking timers on MNK funny when VPR has several...

I'm also surprised that the 10 chakra limit is exclusively during BH. It'd have made more sense imho to make it permanent while not letting meditate give more than 5 chakra.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

Okay so basically rather than buffs/a DOT you now have buffing GCDs and spending GCDS.

Dragon Kick gives you one "pip" of buffed nu-bootshine. Twin Snakes gives you two pips of buffed nu-true strike. Demolish gives you three pips of buffed nu-snap punch.

So the rotation outside of burst window is essentially the same, but now people don't have to watch buff timers and can look at the shiny Job Guage™.

With this in mind one guaranteed change is that we no longer need to refresh twin snakes buff before PB. Maybe a bit of complexity lost but not a big deal imo. As for how the 2 min burst window plays out I think that needs some more in-deptth theorycrafting. So we probably won't have the exact optimal drift as before but maybe in exchange you may need to think about having enough "pips" so that your Rising Phoenix PB sequence doesn't use unbuffed GCDs during party buffs. Maybe someone smarter than me can visualize this better or we can wait until media tour

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Hmm, it's still a little sketchy, but I think I can see the potential in what you're saying. I would laugh (and be filled with joy) if Dawntrail MNK unintentionally turned out to be a cursed spreadsheet job. If we can't have Optimal Drift as it existed in Endwalker, then I can at least hope for something in the Media Tour to push us in the cursed spreadsheet direction. I'd even take having all six positionals back, but seeing as DRG lost yet another one, that seems unlikely. Please SE, just a crumb of optimisation is all I ask for.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

I found the reasoning behind checking timers on MNK funny when VPR has several...

I'm also surprised that the 10 chakra limit is exclusively during BH. It'd have made more sense imho to make it permanent while not letting meditate give more than 5 chakra.

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The reasoning is so weird. Monks have had timers for 10 years - I don't understand why it's an issue all of a sudden. I also disagree with their assertion that MNKs spend all their time staring at timers--that should not be the end-goal of MNK gameplay. I always thought it was more a bad habit that MNK players need to grow out of with practice. To me, MNK mastery means glancing at your timers for a split second, knowing instantly what your next 9 GCDs will be, then putting all your attention on raid mechs. But I guess this experience isn't as universal as I initially thought it was.

What? Taking time to learn a DPS job? Not in FF14, everyone should be able to play everything virtually perfectly after a couple dungeon runs.

Good thing I gave up on this job years ago.

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Originally Posted by Silhart

I always thought it was more a bad habit that MNK players need to grow out of with practice. To me, MNK mastery means glancing at your timers for a split second, knowing instantly what your next 9 GCDs will be, then putting all your attention on raid mechs. But I guess this experience isn't as universal as I initially thought it was.

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It is like that in my opinion too - at least in a raider's approach, learning the basics > fitting those basics into mechanics for a clear > optional encounter specific optimisation for stuff like double solar openers etc.

Based on the live-letter presentation and the fact that right out of the gate they mentioned that the changes to all classes are in favour of 'ease of usability' - I can only feel a bit anxious about how they expect us to play for the next few years until we get the proper tool-tips from the media tour.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

This hinges on the specifics of the new resources built by Twin Snakes (Raptor Gauge) and Demolish (Coeurl Gauge). If the Raptor gauge buffs all Raptor form GCDs and the Coeurl Gauge buffs all Coeurl form GCDs, then the rotation remains as is. If they just buff True Strike and Snap Punch it\\'s gonna get weird.

Right now Monk\\'s downtime rotation is as follows. I\\'ve put what the new gauges will sit at if we need to use them gauge to buff the reapplication of Twin Snakes and Demolish in parenthesis to illustrate how it will look if it doesn\\'t change. I\\'m just calling them O, R and C for Opo Opo, Raptor, and Coeurl gauges respectively.

DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:2 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:2)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:0>2 C:1)
Bs>TrS>Dem (O:0 R:1 C:O>3)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:0>2 C:2)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:1)
DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:0>2 C:0>3)

However if the new resource only buffs True Strike and Snap Punch then what the rotation turns into is:

DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:2 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:2)
DK>TrS>SP (O:1 R:0 C:1)
BS>TwS>SP (O:0 R:2 C:0)
DK>TrS>Dem (O:1 R:1 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:0 C:2)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:2 C:1)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:0)
DK>TrS>Dem (O:1 R:0 C:3)
BS>TwS>SP (O:0 R:2 C:2)
DK>TrS>SP (O:1 R:1 C:1)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:0 C:0)

Which is a huge change to Monk\\'s gameplay outside of its burst window.

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I think it is the latter, where only Bootshine, True Strike and Snap Punch will be buffed. The new gauge is there for us to see, right? The gauge information is only useful if the following is true.

When the gauge is filled - use Boot, True Strike or Snap Punch.

When the gauge is empty - use DK, TS or Demolish to refill the gauge.

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

It is like that in my opinion too - at least in a raider's approach, learning the basics > fitting those basics into mechanics for a clear > optional encounter specific optimisation for stuff like double solar openers etc.

Based on the live-letter presentation and the fact that right out of the gate they mentioned that the changes to all classes are in favour of 'ease of usability' - I can only feel a bit anxious about how they expect us to play for the next few years until we get the proper tool-tips from the media tour.

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It is quite concerning. If new MNK turns out to be as shallow as we feared, then I feel like we'll be stuck with that for many more expansions to come. I know there are talks of reworking the jobs in 8.0, but realistically I don't see how they can make significant changes without pissing off the players who end up enjoying the new MNK. And I'm sure there will be a lot of them, judging by how popular Endwalker SMN turned out to be.

The 'ease of usability' mention (combined with Yoshi-P's comment that maybe the game has become too 'easy') does make me think that the game's difficulty will be focused on encounter design from here on out. Progging savage will no doubt be a fun experience, but once the mechanics have been mastered, there's honestly not much room left to grow, especially in a game where every mechanic and GCD can be timelined on a spreadsheet to the exact second. Reclears will become incredibly stale without anything to optimise on our jobs. I wish CBU3 would reconsider their course of action, but if this is what the people want...

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Originally Posted by Silhart

It is quite concerning. If new MNK turns out to be as shallow as we feared, then I feel like we'll be stuck with that for many more expansions to come. I know there are talks of reworking the jobs in 8.0, but realistically I don't see how they can make significant changes without pissing off the players who end up enjoying the new MNK. And I'm sure there will be a lot of them, judging by how popular Endwalker SMN turned out to be.

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nah. I sincerely believe MNK will still be unpopular, especially so when there's a new melee that's cannibalizing some of its niches. this is the third (fourth if you count 5.4 MNK) time in a row we've seen people go "finally! they made MNK easier, now I can play it!" and none of them have ever actually made the job sustain any kind of popularity. I don't have any reason to believe that Dawntrail will be any different.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

nah. I sincerely believe MNK will still be unpopular, especially so when there's a new melee that's cannibalizing some of its niches. this is the third (fourth if you count 5.4 MNK) time in a row we've seen people go "finally! they made MNK easier, now I can play it!" and none of them have ever actually made the job sustain any kind of popularity. I don't have any reason to believe that Dawntrail will be any different.

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This is somehow more depressing than the worst case scenario I had in my head. Only time will tell, but the thought of losing the things I like about MNK over a rework that no one will end up playing is actually infuriating. But I guess that's just the reality of being a MNK main. If this is how I feel now, I wonder how it felt back then for MNK mains to lose the legendary Tornado Kick rotation. That must be even more tragic in hindsight considering everything that came after.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silhart

This is somehow more depressing than the worst case scenario I had in my head. Only time will tell, but the thought of losing the things I like about MNK over a rework that no one will end up playing is actually infuriating. But I guess that's just the reality of being a MNK main. If this is how I feel now, I wonder how it felt back then for MNK mains to lose the legendary Tornado Kick rotation. That must be even more tragic in hindsight considering everything that came after.

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It felt terrible. The changes to MNK in Shadowbringers gutted everything I loved from 4.5. Haven't cared what they've done to the job since then, though I still play it. All they've done is spoon-fed us back old mechanics that they stripped away. For example, the nadi system is just a repurposed Tornado Kick rotation. Build up nadi/greased-lightening for a big spender, use Perfect Balance to build it back up again. But the 4.5 MNK rotation was highly dynamic and flowed so well that nadi is a pale imitation. It had more than one way to build greased-lightening, elemental fist switching, elemental riddle interaction (minus riddle of earth effect, that was dumb), all the positionals, and tons of oGCDs. Peak MNK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

nah. I sincerely believe MNK will still be unpopular, especially so when there's a new melee that's cannibalizing some of its niches. this is the third (fourth if you count 5.4 MNK) time in a row we've seen people go "finally! they made MNK easier, now I can play it!" and none of them have ever actually made the job sustain any kind of popularity. I don't have any reason to believe that Dawntrail will be any different.

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Weird how catering job design to lobotomites who are averse to putting in any iota of effort ruins the job for everyone eh. Don't worry, SAM is rapidly joining this state MNK is in, of being catered to lobotomites who will only flock to the newest "shiny" class.

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Originally Posted by Mecia

Depressing. I want 5.4 Monk back.

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I miss 5.4 Monk.
It was so fun and rather than expanding on it, CU3 had to take it away from us less than a year after it came out. :(

The largest changes, though not terribly important for content as it stands presently, seems to be that we're no longer going to be nearly so concerned about uptime (a worrying/deleterious direction, imo, as I would much rather melee actually have to be mindful of melee things) and we can no longer spread Demolish for damage bonuses at under 4 targets (which likewise degrades TTK considerations and reduces Coeurl skill and PB options).

On the whole, for anyone who'd ever learned to place target debuffs in a place they can actually see, this seems like it'll be no easier to track despite adding visual bloat overall and reducing variance, engagement, and optionality. Not the end of the world, but I'm not particularly a fan of the change, either.

:: From someone who found Endwalker Monk actually pretty solidly fun at high SkS due to optimizing drift, with only maybe Late Stormblood Monk (also ideally at enough SkS for triple-TKs per RoF) beating it out.

people are like: monk got easier? nice! now i can finally go to max lvl with it... looks much better in the jobwindow.

Always had a problem with the timers from Demolish and Disciplined Fist, along with Perfect Balance and their rotational use.
Brings my brain to fold itself like origami when trying to figure it out whenever I get endgame content after weeks of low level alliance roulettes with the Monk Job.

Maybe the changes will help a bit regarding that. I would welcome it.

if anything, i dont like our most new animation is just hadouken animation (think we got 3?), i want more punch and kick damnit

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Originally Posted by Asari5

people are like: monk got easier? nice! now i can finally go to max lvl with it... looks much better in the jobwindow.

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It's a videogame, so more people having fun with something in it is good, actually.

It's an RPG with around 20 classes. It's beyond idiotic to try make them all appeal to everyone.