Friend Removal should be bothways

I tried to give Yoshi P the benefit of the doubt, that perhaps it might cause confrontation but upon thinking about it....

If someone deletes me from their friendlist, I'd like them to be removed from mine as well and vice versa.

I used to be on the fence about it, but the friendlist system is a privacy nightmare to me. The idea of me staying forever on someone's FL even if I remove them is bizarre. Maybe give us an option for a permanent deletion or if you block someone you get deleted from their FL.

I think the Blacklist changes in DT are nice and will give people options so I'm hopeful the friendlist will get similar treatment.

I'd love to hear people's thoughts about it. :o

If you think it shouldn't be so, why do you think so?

To me it has never made sense why this game works that way. People unfriend others for a reason. This 'no confrontation' arguement is so weird. No one wants the friend system to send 'hey dingledork, your friend unfriended you because you're a dumbass' in a moogle letter, just remove me from the other person's list like a normal game.

Been asked for for years now by many people. Welcome to the club, grab a cushion and make yourself comfy. You'll be here for a while.

They simply do not have it high enough on there radar atm even tho I personally think its not acceptable rn the state its in

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Originally Posted by Rueby

If you think it shouldn't be so, why do you think so?

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While I 100% agree with you that the two-way removal is needed, I think players also need to take some responsibility and make better decisions about who they are adding to their friends list and why. The reality is that most of the time, they aren't friends at all and are simply another player met in passing.

Do you know enough about that other player that you're okay with them having information about what you're doing in game?

Would you have a specific reason to want to talk to that player in the future?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

While I 100% agree with you that the two-way removal is needed, I think players also need to take some responsibility and make better decisions about who they are adding to their friends list and why. The reality is that most of the time, they aren't friends at all and are simply another player met in passing.

Do you know enough about that other player that you're okay with them having information about what you're doing in game?

Would you have a specific reason to want to talk to that player in the future?

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Here is where I'm gonna disagree with you because people are capable of hiding who they actually are for long periods of time, look at abusers that don't show their true colors until after marriage or people who you think are your friends for years suddenly doing a 180 and scamming you for Fan Fest tickets (YouTube that if you're curious). You can't really predict the future or what people are going to do. Unless someone gives off some really sheisty vibes from the start (or even in the early period of getting to know them), how are you supposed to know that that person is someone who will eventually be problematic?

I think there's not much point making it remove you from other people's lists just for the sake of it. I think that blacklisting the person should do that though, since this is planned to make them disappear. Obviously if you are at a point where you are doing this to them, it may as well fully remove you from their friends list as well. The situation must be really bad if you are at this point where you don't even want to see them render.

I had a similar case a few months ago. I was part of a big fc, and we usually had some stuff we sent through mails (maps, crafted gear, etc) so we needed to be friends in game to do so. Eventually, me and some members had a big fallout with the FC head, left and went to another one (whose house was in another ward). Naturally we blacklisted the old lead for reasons, but since we had him on fl before so we could arrange fc stuff we knew we still would pop up if he came close...but thats not the worst part!

Another member of the big old fc , who had not left at the time, had a house in the same housing district of our new FC and well, went to do housing stuff. The old lead messaged said person, saying they were betraying the fc for continuing to associate with us after we left and encouraged them to do the same and leave...They were just vising their own house. So even after we left they were stalking players who were on the same wards as us (tho i'm aware they could also be using the FC menu to track peeps) and harrasing them.

Well now I know the guy is nuts but like, the FC member tracking and Friendlist are so easily abusable for stalking purposes, and a lot of members had each other on fl to easy proccess in fc >.>

I completely agree. Friend removal should work both ways. It seems that SE is adamant about lacking sufficient evidence of people using the friend list to stalk and harass. They've convinced themselves that leaving it as is makes things less confrontational.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

While I 100% agree with you that the two-way removal is needed, I think players also need to take some responsibility and make better decisions about who they are adding to their friends list and why. The reality is that most of the time, they aren't friends at all and are simply another player met in passing.

Do you know enough about that other player that you're okay with them having information about what you're doing in game?

Would you have a specific reason to want to talk to that player in the future?

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I understand the sentiment about being responsible for who we add, but this game tends to send friend requests quickly, sometimes even before you truly know someone beyond a few messages. It's often just for the convenience of teleporting to a friend's estate. Once you add someone, it's a commitment. If you express hesitance, wanting to know the person better before accepting, it can come across as insecurity or stiffness, possibly leading the other person to assume you have trust issues. It's a tricky situation. It's in the same vein when someone opens with, "Mare?" or "Funny moon code?", if you ignore it, they assume you didn't want to be friends in the first place.

Help me understand why this should be a thing. I'm not being combative and genuinely curious what players are dealing with that makes them feel this way.

For me, this has not been an issue. I've unfriended only two accounts during my time on this game, and never heard from either of them ever again with one exception. I have my character config set so I do not see player names unless they are in my FC, in my party, or on my friend's list. If the players I have unfriended can still see me, I do not care.

The one exception I mentioned previously was from an old FC mate who went out of her way to hurt my feelings. I never blisted her and she messaged me around six months later and asked how I was doing. I was civil about it and wasn't rude to her. She did apologize to me and said she missed me, which brought some of the pain back. I thanked her for reaching out and that was it. There was no harassment issues or anything like that.

I think I only have 6-7 people on my friend's list. It's not a feature I heavily utilize, and much like RL there needs to be a natural and strong connection for me to request or add someone to the list. This is very rare for me. I am curious if some people are befriending anyone and everyone who sends a request as this is generally not a good idea. I don't need to hear you have or haven't, but be honest with yourself in regards to how you use the friend's list feature. I definitely agree that measures should be taken to protect players from harassment, but there are also things players can do to help ensure a more enjoyable experience while playing FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

While I 100% agree with you that the two-way removal is needed, I think players also need to take some responsibility and make better decisions about who they are adding to their friends list and why. The reality is that most of the time, they aren't friends at all and are simply another player met in passing.

Do you know enough about that other player that you're okay with them having information about what you're doing in game?

Would you have a specific reason to want to talk to that player in the future?

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I see your point, but I disagree with you. Being responsible is one thing but even if you're careful, people can change, shit happens. You can't be responsible for things that may happen down the line, I doubt anyone should be expected to psycho analyze a person before they add them nor should they. I've seen this whole 'people change' or people are simply showing who they really are, months and sometimes years down the line.

Some people are obvious red banners, on my main I was really naive and added everyone who added me because I wanted to have fun and socialize, then I realized how the friendlist works. I had to make an alt to have a 'fresh' start, but I have a keen desire to socialize and talk to people. Now I'm just scared of adding anyone anymore and I get this crippling guilt when I have a good talk with someone and I want to add them and hang out again but my brain defaults to like 'yeah nah'. I really miss the time when I was a sprout and wanted to talk to people and make friends. I shouldn't have to worry about 'this person could permanently have me on their FL and I don't really know them'

Note : I do struggle alot with privacy, the idea that my location is so easily accessible is really something I'm uncomfortable with. The game's open world is really small, if you really want to find someone, you really can- quite easily.

They didn't mention this in the last LL, but given the Blacklist and privacy improvements in 7.0, I would suspect this is coming too.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

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Well, I think we're both genuinely different and that's okay! I'm way more social by nature and tend wish that maaaaybe a meaningful friendship might blossom from many interactions. Here's what I think.

Why shouldn't it be a thing?

If I remove you from my friendlist, it means I have no interest in interacting with you anymore most likely, or we're not close enough. Is there a reason for me to stay on your list? I can't think of one, to me it feels weird. This isn't real life, neither should it be- because it's really hard to have a feel of someone just from the few interactions you had, that person could be a mutual in your friend circle.

I admit, I didn't really think adding people came with an issue, I used to be really social and I love interacting with people, perhaps within these interactions a meaningful friendship might form. In my 4-5 years of playing the game I came out with 2-3 really good friends I trust so far, but I also met plenty that I regret knowing/interacting with. I agree with you, immediate friend requests are something I regret, I used to accept them all on my main because to me I felt bad/guilty/ungrateful if someone is showing interest in wanting to communicate and I shut them down then I feel like I'm an asshole.

I don't add anyone anymore, but I also miss chatting with people, just for fun and not having to worry about being plastered permanently on their friendlist. I feel really guilty when I decline friend requests but my anxiety trumps all else now and I hate it. I abandoned my main because of that system, I had too many people on him and the thought of being permanently on people's FL before I even knew how this system works is just hmmm weird. I agree with you that yes, one should be careful who they add, but sometimes someone misjudges someone, or someone is just hiding their intents- you live and learn. I don't think the game should give anyone this weird dreadful feeling of 'yep you're on my friendlist forever, good luck'

Why should the game highlight someone's name out in the game world if that person does not want to be my friend? I don't want to notice or interact with them either. There should be a button to clear out all names with a non-matching friend status from the friends list.

When someone sends you a friend request, you have to agree to it. Both are telling the game they have permission to be on one another's friend list. If a player removes someone from their list, then the game needs to remove that person from the other person's list as they are essentially revoking that permission. It really doesn't make a lot of sense why it doesn't already work like this.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

Well, I think we're both genuinely different and that's okay! I'm way more social by nature and tend wish that maaaaybe a meaningful friendship might blossom from many interactions. Here's what I think.

Why shouldn't it be a thing?

If I remove you from my friendlist, it means I have no interest in interacting with you anymore most likely, or we're not close enough. Is there a reason for me to stay on your list? I can't think of one, to me it feels weird. This isn't real life, neither should it be- because it's really hard to have a feel of someone just from the few interactions you had, that person could be a mutual in your friend circle.

I admit, I didn't really think adding people came with an issue, I used to be really social and I love interacting with people, perhaps within these interactions a meaningful friendship might form. In my 4-5 years of playing the game I came out with 2-3 really good friends I trust so far, but I also met plenty that I regret knowing/interacting with. I agree with you, immediate friend requests are something I regret, I used to accept them all on my main because to me I felt bad/guilty/ungrateful if someone is showing interest in wanting to communicate and I shut them down then I feel like I'm an asshole.

I don't add anyone anymore, but I also miss chatting with people, just for fun and not having to worry about being plastered permanently on their friendlist. I feel really guilty when I decline friend requests but my anxiety trumps all else now and I hate it. I abandoned my main because of that system, I had too many people on him and the thought of being permanently on people's FL before I even knew how this system works is just hmmm weird. I agree with you that yes, one should be careful who they add, but sometimes someone misjudges someone, or someone is just hiding their intents- you live and learn. I don't think the game should give anyone this weird dreadful feeling of 'yep you're on my friendlist forever, good luck'

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You are sweet. If most people were like you, there wouldn't be much need for GMs. I appreciate your honest and wholesome answer.

The way I see things, though, is that it doesn't matter much to me if someone I unfriend keeps me on their list. They are no longer a friend either way. Even if for some reason I couldn't delete them from my list, and I still saw their name among the crowd of peeps at the Gold Saucer during Jumbo Cactpot, or if they wind up in my party during a roulette, or I just see them randomly out in the world somewhere, it doesn't change anything. The name on a list is exactly that. In order for it to have meaning, meaning has to be given to it. My true friend's list is on my heart, and if a name is scratched off, any other place it might be written is irrelevant.

On the flip side of this coin, there are players whom I have met during my adventures who are not on the list who I will always consider a friend, or friendly acquaintance. Friendly players who through pure happenstance wound up in one of my parties and left a huge impression because of how friendly and helpful they were to myself and others. Players who I have interacted with if even for only a short while to trade compliments, or just a random chit chat.

Something you said that stood out to me is the feeling of guilt when having to turn down a friend's request, and it is reasons like this why I actually am not in favor of this feature. I feel that a friend's list is not needed to be friendly towards someone, or to receive friendly gestures from another player. It also does not feel good to delete someone from the list as well. The two people I brought up before; it did not make me feel good to remove them. It was a stark reminder of the painful experience associated with each of them. It actually would have been easier to just leave them there. I actually kind of regret removing them, and I would take it back if I could.

Lastly, you are correct that we can easily misjudge someone. The world and the internet is filled with serpents who can mask their intent. There are never any guarantees when you give someone the ability to hurt you. Hopefully you can take to heart what I mentioned earlier. Carving two names on a tree is more of a created memory than it is a status. A severed friendship does not mean memories should be destroyed. You can't destroy them anyway. Even if you would like to.

I'd like for removing someone from your friends list to remove yourself from their list as well, because I'd like someone I had on my friends list to not know where I am at all times, hunt me down, show up, and follow me around, but I don't want to block them because I feel like that's extreme and I don't want them to feel alienated if they try to say something to me in a community conversation. I'd just like to not be tracked and followed everywhere I go within minutes of logging in.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

While I 100% agree with you that the two-way removal is needed, I think players also need to take some responsibility and make better decisions about who they are adding to their friends list and why. The reality is that most of the time, they aren't friends at all and are simply another player met in passing.

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Professor, isn't victim blaming/shaming wrong? We all can't be as perfect as you are. No one can hold a candle to SE's MVP. It must be so lonely at the top.

In all unseriousness, it's a game where strangers meet in passing. Who is really going to run a criminal record/credit check, personality profile questionnaires, etc. on someone in a game in order to put them on their top 200 list of other random people? Just the professor.

It would be one thing if all that adding a person to a FL did was let them see you online. People would likely be more strict with who they put on there, but it isn't. It's also the only way to send mail to FC mates because for some ungodly reason you can't do that unless they are on your FL unlike every other MMO out there where your FC/Guild mates are all options for mail sending (then again so are your alts and we can't even do that either. We need to turn our friends and FC mates into gil mules). Because of that, a lot of people, especially those in officer positions of FCs, HAVE to friend list people. As a result there should be no reason that we are left on a FL if we remove them from ours.

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I had too many people on him and the thought of being permanently on people's FL before I even knew how this system works is just hmmm weird

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I know what you mean. The character I'm writing with hasn't been online for a very long time. Well, I prefer my new one now, but the reason was the same: too many interactions, inability to disappear completely, which over time causes real discomfort, almost a sense of dispossession of the character. Strange as it may sound.

Anyway: yes, please. Beyond the usual problems of IG stalking, when you withdraw from an address book it would be good if it was on both sides, it seems obvious.

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Originally Posted by Charles_Mephist

I had a similar case a few months ago. I was part of a big fc, and we usually had some stuff we sent through mails (maps, crafted gear, etc) so we needed to be friends in game to do so. Eventually, me and some members had a big fallout with the FC head, left and went to another one (whose house was in another ward). Naturally we blacklisted the old lead for reasons, but since we had him on fl before so we could arrange fc stuff we knew we still would pop up if he came close...but thats not the worst part!

Another member of the big old fc , who had not left at the time, had a house in the same housing district of our new FC and well, went to do housing stuff. The old lead messaged said person, saying they were betraying the fc for continuing to associate with us after we left and encouraged them to do the same and leave...They were just vising their own house. So even after we left they were stalking players who were on the same wards as us (tho i'm aware they could also be using the FC menu to track peeps) and harrasing them.

Well now I know the guy is nuts but like, the FC member tracking and Friendlist are so easily abusable for stalking purposes, and a lot of members had each other on fl to easy proccess in fc >.>

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And people wonder why I don't join FC's unless either I or a family member own them.

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Originally Posted by Hazard

I'd like for removing someone from your friends list to remove yourself from their list as well, because I'd like someone I had on my friends list to not know where I am at all times, hunt me down, show up, and follow me around, but I don't want to block them because I feel like that's extreme and I don't want them to feel alienated if they try to say something to me in a community conversation. I'd just like to not be tracked and followed everywhere I go within minutes of logging in.

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Unfortunately they can also do that without having you on their FL through the player search ingame function. Works essentially the same, except it won't show any result if you're in an instance (which is not the problem here). Now that I think of it, I think the blacklist should also block appearing through the search function on the side of the blocked player...

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Originally Posted by Valence

Unfortunately they can also do that without having you on their FL through the player search ingame function. Works essentially the same, except it won't show any result if you're in an instance (which is not the problem here). Now that I think of it, I think the blacklist should also block appearing through the search function on the side of the blocked player...

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I heard in DT we're getting the option to opt out of player search along with Lodestone privacy? Unless I'm somehow mistaken/misinformed.

I heard it is a cultural issue. In Japan, it is a big deal to get removed from someone's friend list. Here is the problem... If this game only launch in Japan, that's fine, but it has global version. It is quite shortsighted and inflexible to do things this way. Just like the msw locking content behind it.

100000000000000000000000% friend removal needs to work both ways. People completely use the friend list to stalk other people. It's happened to me by people I have cut off contact with (and no, not randos I've added to my friend list in passing; someone who I RP'd with for over a year and they finally showed their true colors as an abusive and toxic person). This same person has continued to stalk and harass one of my friends/FC members even.

What also needs to be added is the ability to blacklist people without contact. See someone you want to blacklist? Right click on their name and blacklist or look them up on player search and blacklist. I should NOT have to wait for some sort of interaction with someone to be able to blacklist them.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I heard in DT we're getting the option to opt out of player search along with Lodestone privacy? Unless I'm somehow mistaken/misinformed.

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I am not sure either, there is a lot of underlying points to the issue that were probably not all covered in the liveletter. They definitely talked about lodestone privacy though.

Sounds like GCBTW is at it again, but even so, I don't think the feature needs to go both ways.

So you, personally, feel like <Player X> is no longer friend material or interesting or whatever. You unfriend them. Did you tell them even? What was your value to them? Are you unfriending just because you're in a, "fuck it all" sort of mood?

They might consider you their best or one of their greatest friends.

This just kind of reeks of undervaluing the meaning of the word friend, and that people are being added to your list and taken off of it, on day to day whims.

Like how many people on your lists are really friends if you feel this way? What's your criteria for adding someone in the first place?

Though I suppose, at this point, it doesn't matter at all. In Dawntrail you'll be able to remove them, then blacklist them, and they won't even appear as part of your game world anymore. Won't matter then, if you're still on their list.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Sounds like GCBTW is at it again, but even so, I don't think the feature needs to go both ways.

So you, personally, feel like <Player X> is no longer friend material or interesting or whatever. You unfriend them. Did you tell them even? What was your value to them? Are you unfriending just because you're in a, "fuck it all" sort of mood?

They might consider you their best or one of their greatest friends.

This just kind of reeks of undervaluing the meaning of the word friend, and that people are being added to your list and taken off of it, on day to day whims.

Like how many people on your lists are really friends if you feel this way? What's your criteria for adding someone in the first place?

Though I suppose, at this point, it doesn't matter at all. In Dawntrail you'll be able to remove them, then blacklist them, and they won't even appear as part of your game world anymore. Won't matter then, if you're still on their list.

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To keep a track of their username. You message would be true if we had another list called "people I met but are not friend yet". We don't. So for now, it's simply like facebook : a list of people you know. But not a list of friends.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Sounds like GCBTW is at it again, but even so, I don't think the feature needs to go both ways.

So you, personally, feel like <Player X> is no longer friend material or interesting or whatever. You unfriend them. Did you tell them even? What was your value to them? Are you unfriending just because you're in a, "fuck it all" sort of mood?

They might consider you their best or one of their greatest friends.

This just kind of reeks of undervaluing the meaning of the word friend, and that people are being added to your list and taken off of it, on day to day whims.

Like how many people on your lists are really friends if you feel this way? What's your criteria for adding someone in the first place?

Though I suppose, at this point, it doesn't matter at all. In Dawntrail you'll be able to remove them, then blacklist them, and they won't even appear as part of your game world anymore. Won't matter then, if you're still on their list.

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If someone decides to remove themselves from my friends list, I view it as their way of ending our connection without any need for confrontation. I appreciate the quiet closure rather than persisting in upholding a relationship that has become insincere.

> This just kind of reeks of undervaluing the meaning of the word friend, and that people are being added to your list and taken off of it, on day to day whims.

You literally need to be friends in game to send something as basic as mails to someone else. Game already does a good job at devaluating it

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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It's so funny that in this great community I experienced and heard about the worst dramas and actually reached a point where I dreaded waking up. Perhaps not everyone is running into the best of the community. This game has alot of amazing people, but let's not pretend everyone is sunshine and rainbows. I've been in drama and heard of drama that I've never imagined was possible.

You won't really get to know someone unless you add them, some people don't really show who they are until months later. If we're close and bestfriends, we'd be talking often, you wouldn't be giving me a reason (in my opinion) to remove you. I'm not going to remove you based on whims, if I had positive interactions with you, then I have no reason to remove you, you gave me no reason to feel unsafe.

This game does so little to protect people's privacy.
Someone got your Lodestone URL? Good luck, no amount of name changes/world swaps can ever save you.
Had a really bad experience with someone? Good luck, you added them and now you're forever on their list.
Literally blocked someone who was on your list? Good luck, you're still on their friendlist.
Not in an instance? The Player Search is few clicks away.

An argument can be made that some people are unhinged and might actually start acting upon realizing they've been removed/blocked. I experienced this with a dude who decided I was the love of his life after few weeks of interaction and stalked me for years across social media- it stemmed from the fact that he forced my hand. I tried to communicate with him at the time and still am not interested in relationships but he kept acting like I was his GF, when I removed him he went crazy. So...I can see this being a dilemma.

1. I'd like agency over my privacy
2. I don't know if wanting agency over my privacy will cause someone to turn into an unhinged stalker

I think both situations are valid and both situations are very scary. Not feeling safe or feeling like you're tracked is awful and I don't wish it upon anyone. I was interested to see the counter arguments, but I guess I presented a counter argument for my own suggestion. This is the 'on the fence' situation that I spoke about in my OP.

If you removed me from your list on a whim or if you opted out of communicating with me...then we were never close and if we were I'd be hurt, but I'd maybe reach out, if not then I'll respect it and move on.

I want to be able to add people, get to know them, and if things don't work out, we can go our seperate ways without compromising anyone's privacy. I just want some agency over my privacy/location/activity. If there was an appear offline option I'd happily use it. Or perhaps a way to select certain friends to appear online to. I don't know honestly.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

If someone decides to remove themselves from my friends list, I view it as their way of ending our connection without any need for confrontation. I appreciate the quiet closure rather than persisting in upholding a relationship that has become insincere.

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Yeah, exactly! And because I don't want to have this kind of one sided relationship where the other person has already moved on, I want to have a way to clear out every friend of mine that does not consider me to be theirs. I have no desire to blacklist anyone, but I don't want their name to be highlighted in a crowd as an invitation to talk to them if they don't want to associate with me anymore. It's weird and cringe for people to want to occupy someone's friend list when they've already removed that person from their own list. Why do they seek to maintain the facade?