[Suggestion] Make average ilvl be the min ilvl required for all gear slots.

As the title says. There should be checks in place to ensure that a player is properly geared before queueing into something, and average ilvl just isn't enough. For example, if I were to wear a full set of 660 gear but switch my weapon to be a level 1 starter weapon, my average ilvl would then be 550. This would allow me to queue into everything up through the end of Endwalker. It's an extreme example, but it's insane that the game would let me do that in the first place.


Furthermore, no ilvl checks for mid-expansion trials is also insane. I'm defining mid-expansion trials as the level 20, 34, and 44 trial from ARR, the level 53 and 57 trial from HW, the level 63 and 67 trial from SB, the level 73 and 79 trial from ShB, and the level 83 and 89 trial from EW. Once again, this means that I am able to queue into the level 89 trial with absolutely no gear outside of a level 1 weapon, and this is something the game would let me do.

In recent memory, I've had a Praetorium (avg. ilvl 42) run with a warrior who had all of their accessories well below average ilvl, and two actually at level 1. In that same run, there was a dancer who also had the same issue of having accessories below average ilvl. I had a run of the second alliance raid from the Stormblood series (average ilvl 335) where there was a dancer in my party with a weapon at ilvl 276. When I mentioned something about them needing an upgrade, nearly the whole party told me I need to mind my own business. Even back as far as patch 5.3, when that level 80 trial was current (avg. ilvl 465), I queued in with an astrologian who was wearing an ilvl 400 weapon who was unable to make a meaningful impact with the amount of healing they were doing.

This needs to change.

You're putting way too much emphasis on ilvl as being the actual source of problems.

Accessories are almost always going to run behind the average ilvl for leveling content because accessories are not common as a quest reward while doing MSQ outside of the coffer rewards during the 50/60/70/80 segments. Accessories don't tend to catch up until the player reaches level cap. Since accessories have a lower stat budget than left side items, it ends up a non-issue as long as the average ilvl requirement for the content is met. It's even more laughable as a complaint for ARR content considering there are no vendors in ARR zones that sell DoM/DoW accessories for over level 30 and the stat budget on those items is so low in the first place.

Weapons would be a different problem. They represent a disproportionate amount of player power. Yet still the gains from other items equipped would help offset what is lost on the lower ilvl weapon. The player is going to be less effective than they would be with a higher ilvl weapon but it should still not be that much of a detriment to a group.

The real problem is likely skill or effort, and a higher ilvl isn't going to make up for the lack of either.

In all honesty, those other players were right. If you're queuing in Duty Finder to get matched to a random party, focus on what you're doing instead of worrying about what others are wearing. If the party is consistently wiping and not making progress, then worry about what others are wearing. Or you can make your own party in PF if what others are wearing is that big of a concern for you.

I think it's incredibly disrespectful to be queueing into anything with less than appropriate gear. What sort of message does it send to everyone else you're playing with if you're queueing into things practically missing gear? To me, it shows you're either disrespectful of everyone else there and don't care about their time, or it shows that you're just incompetent and weren't aware, one of which I'd argue is much better than the other. I'm not asking for perfection, I'm not even asking for "good." I'm asking for the bare minimum.

Im not saying youre wrong to feel this way. So dont take this as that. And i wont defend experienced players slacking on appropriate gear and expecting the party to carry them. Lazy, like Jojoya would likely agree, is a much bigger and more insidious problem. With that said, there is one thing you should keep in mind. Beating Prae(and ultima after for that matter) is required for a new player to get access to their first meaningful set of accessories. The best accessories you can find in the story/on a vendor up to that point combined(yes, all 5 slots added together) have lower stats then 1 piece of ironworks jewelry. Someone with a half a set of half upgraded accessories being compared to your idea of a hard ilvl 42 requirement... theyre probly missing 10 or less of their main stat. That shouldnt be near enough to make a difference.

So yes, my entire point is that low level accessories suck(as a board certified goldsmith im allowed to make this claim) and the game doesnt let you get good ones until you see your first credit roll. So new players have it rough.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

I think it's incredibly disrespectful to be queueing into anything with less than appropriate gear. What sort of message does it send to everyone else you're playing with if you're queueing into things practically missing gear? To me, it shows you're either disrespectful of everyone else there and don't care about their time, or it shows that you're just incompetent and weren't aware, one of which I'd argue is much better than the other. I'm not asking for perfection, I'm not even asking for "good." I'm asking for the bare minimum.

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Is it disrespect or lack of knowledge, especially in lower level content? Not everyone is a MMORPG veteran. Not everyone has prior gaming experience, let alone experience with games that are heavily gear dependent when it comes to player power.

The additional time it takes to clear leveling content because one player barely meets the ilvl requirements is a couple of minutes at best. It's the lack of skill and/or effort that causes duties to drag on far longer than necessary.

Having a holier than thou attitude when encountering players lacking knowledge is not going to encourage them to ask questions or take advice when it comes to improvement.

As for only asking for the bare minimum, that is the minimum you're getting when you're encountering other players through Duty Finder matching. If they didn't meet the bare minimum ilvl requirements for the content, the game wouldn't allow them to queue.

If you were talking about people trying to get a spot in a PF for current high end content, I'd agree with you. Someone trying to get into EX, Savage or Ultimate should know how to gear properly before joining. That's not what you're talking about, though.

Honestly, tone it back a bit and relax when it comes to leveling content. You're looking for trouble where there is none. Wait until the party runs into actual trouble before you start obsessing over what others are wearing.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

For example, if I were to wear a full set of 660 gear but switch my weapon to be a level 1 starter weapon, my average ilvl would then be 550. This would allow me to queue into everything up through the end of Endwalker. It's an extreme example, but it's insane that the game would let me do that in the first place.

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It's not an extreme example so much as it is a completely useless example.

If you're a brand new Lv.90 player running Dead Ends for the first time, you're not going to have access to 660 gear, and you're highly unlikely to have bothered going to the marketboard for crafted gear. The better example would be how off-kilter that player's gear can be and still meet the min ilvl requirement.

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Once again, this means that I am able to queue into the level 89 trial with absolutely no gear outside of a level 1 weapon, and this is something the game would let me do.

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Similarly, this is also a completely useless example. How off-kilter can ≤ Lv.89 gear be and still average out to 520 (the Lv.89 dungeon prior)? Someone running the trial for the first time isn't going to strip naked after the dungeon and before the trial.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

Im not saying youre wrong to feel this way. So dont take this as that. And i wont defend experienced players slacking on appropriate gear and expecting the party to carry them. Lazy, like Jojoya would likely agree, is a much bigger and more insidious problem. With that said, there is one thing you should keep in mind. Beating Prae(and ultima after for that matter) is required for a new player to get access to their first meaningful set of accessories. The best accessories you can find in the story/on a vendor up to that point combined(yes, all 5 slots added together) have lower stats then 1 piece of ironworks jewelry. Someone with a half a set of half upgraded accessories being compared to your idea of a hard ilvl 42 requirement... theyre probly missing 10 or less of their main stat. That shouldnt be near enough to make a difference.

So yes, my entire point is that low level accessories suck(as a board certified goldsmith im allowed to make this claim) and the game doesnt let you get good ones until you see your first credit roll. So new players have it rough.

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Oh no, I'm not disputing that. I've got a couple alts and trying to keep them geared before praetorium without dipping into the market board is a pain. I think people are getting too caught up on the praetorium example I used that they're not looking at anything past pre-praetorium ARR. I can agree that the accessories in ARR are an issue that should be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Is it disrespect or lack of knowledge, especially in lower level content? Not everyone is a MMORPG veteran. Not everyone has prior gaming experience, let alone experience with games that are heavily gear dependent when it comes to player power.

The additional time it takes to clear leveling content because one player barely meets the ilvl requirements is a couple of minutes at best. It's the lack of skill and/or effort that causes duties to drag on far longer than necessary.

Having a holier than thou attitude when encountering players lacking knowledge is not going to encourage them to ask questions or take advice when it comes to improvement.

As for only asking for the bare minimum, that is the minimum you're getting when you're encountering other players through Duty Finder matching. If they didn't meet the bare minimum ilvl requirements for the content, the game wouldn't allow them to queue.

If you were talking about people trying to get a spot in a PF for current high end content, I'd agree with you. Someone trying to get into EX, Savage or Ultimate should know how to gear properly before joining. That's not what you're talking about, though.

Honestly, tone it back a bit and relax when it comes to leveling content. You're looking for trouble where there is none. Wait until the party runs into actual trouble before you start obsessing over what others are wearing.

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It doesn't really matter whether it's disrespect or lack of knowledge. One is much easier to remedy than the other. I've queued into the dusk vigil with a scholar wearing the book that drops from the stone vigil. They couldn't keep me alive as a tank, not for lack of me using mits, but because the book they were using just couldn't keep up. So I told them they needed an upgrade. Their response was "oh sorry, I didn't know." Easy, problem solved, now they know. No attitude, no insults, no ill will, easy.

Now lets compare that to the dancer from the ridoranna lighthouse who told me that I needed to mind my own business and that their lack of an appropriate weapon wasn't their fault. There was zero accountability there, they didn't care that they were a detriment, and you know what the best part was? We didn't get tech step a single time, meaning they either just never used it, or they never did their job quest. This point, I feel, feeds into both of our points. Mine of disrespect, and yours of laziness is a bigger issue.

However, this all said, I fail to see how making the ilvl requirement stricter would be a detriment. There are fundamental problems with some players. This solution would not be a cure for that, but it certainly would help in forcing players to be more responsible and considerate of the other people they're queueing with, even if they fail to see that.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

It's not an extreme example so much as it is a completely useless example.

If you're a brand new Lv.90 player running Dead Ends for the first time, you're not going to have access to 660 gear, and you're highly unlikely to have bothered going to the marketboard for crafted gear. The better example would be how off-kilter that player's gear can be and still meet the min ilvl requirement.



Similarly, this is also a completely useless example. How off-kilter can ≤ Lv.89 gear be and still average out to 520 (the Lv.89 dungeon prior)? Someone running the trial for the first time isn't going to strip naked after the dungeon and before the trial.

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So what's the issue with forcing the ilvl requirement to be stricter?

im sure they could put the necessary minilvl only on weapon, armor and average ilvl... leaving accessories out

The other day I had two runs where people were undergeared with initial equipment at the manor, one offending tank had level 1 armor in two slots and no jobstone which resulted in him having less defense and HP than me. I can understand having things 5-10 levels behind in the non-capped dungeons but if you end up with less HP and defense than the healer then you are clearly just trying to start a fight. A minimum item level wont work for earlygame dungeons for the reasons described above, but after a point it should at least mandate minimum defense or attack power depending on your role. Equipment is not hard to get in this game, even on F2P you are basically handed good equipment via your job quests and poetic vendors.

On that note, the argument that you could equip a Lv1 weapon doesn't hold water, because that would be considered griefing which is reportable and a valid reason to vote kick. Though it's not a listed reason on the prompt, not being able to reasonably fulfill your role is named as an example of unlisted but valid reasons in this post.

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Originally Posted by TlachtgaSi

On that note, the argument that you could equip a Lv1 weapon doesn't hold water, because that would be considered griefing which is reportable and a valid reason to vote kick. Though it's not a listed reason on the prompt, not being able to reasonably fulfill your role is named as an example of unlisted but valid reasons in this post.

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I'd argue it *does* hold water, only because it's something the game itself would allow you to do. Once you actually get into whatever you're queueing into, it's in the hands of your other party members, but at that point the damage has been done. You've *already* queued, you've *already* wasted their time, the damage has *already* been done. Yes, they could kick you, report you, and yes, you could get suspended for griefing. But... you'll have to forgive me here, I don't really trust people to keep themselves adequately equipped anymore. I genuinely believe there should be more checks in place to ensure this sort of situation doesn't happen in the first place.

The slot a kicked player leaves behind gets filled very quickly and the one who left the hole will not be missed. Last night I punted someone who caused multiple wipes by refusing to do Ascian Prime's mechanics (or even communicate for that matter) and the slot was filled before I could say "Let's wait for a new tank". Very little time is being wasted, not that time spent on an anime dressup simulator is valuable to begin with.

I'm glad you've had a better experience with getting slots to fill than I have. Usually whenever a slot needs filling in whatever I'm doing, it takes a few minutes to actually get it filled.

But that second part... That's the thing, isn't it? You don't get to dictate the value of my time. Once again, I'm not asking for perfection, I'm not even asking for good. I'm asking for the bare minimum, and too many people just can't- or rather don't- provide the bare minimum.... Hence the entire reason for this post.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

Usually whenever a slot needs filling in whatever I'm doing, it takes a few minutes to actually get it filled.

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Who's gonna tell her?

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Originally Posted by TlachtgaSi

Who's gonna tell her?

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I'm gonna need you to be more clear, this comment is largely unhelpful and unproductive.

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Originally Posted by TlachtgaSi

The slot a kicked player leaves behind gets filled very quickly and the one who left the hole will not be missed. Last night I punted someone who caused multiple wipes by refusing to do Ascian Prime's mechanics (or even communicate for that matter) and the slot was filled before I could say "Let's wait for a new tank". Very little time is being wasted, not that time spent on an anime dressup simulator is valuable to begin with.

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The slot doesn't get filled quickly when someone loads in without equipment, because you can't kick someone until five minutes has passed and you can't kick someone while in combat and you can't kick someone while loot is available for roll. Showing up naked does not play out the same as chain-wiping the final boss in a lootless dungeon.

What actually happens in situations like these is that you notice something amiss, see the offending player's gear, and then quietly take a 30min leaver penalty and go do something else because you don't feel like arguing and it was Stone Vigil anyway.