Yay, i get to play my job with no changes for another 2+ years...

Unless you didn't get the title its sarcasm.

in the PAX 2024 stream it was said that there will be no changes to the jobs and they will only add more stuff to them and if you understood the title then you must realize that i am extremely pissed that this is the case.

yet again the devs have proved that they didn't learn shit from EW so the jobs are getting another EW treatment, ive been playing WAR since i started the game in ShB so ive had 0 changes from the job that is currently and nor i shall have for another 2+ years.

DT sounded so promising but this statement broke the little hope i had left for this game.

im tank main and tanking in this game has made me hate tanking overall in any game just cause how bland and boring it is in this one and there is absolutely no variety to the jobs.

fantastic way to "second reborn" the game by doing absolutely nothing new and just sticking with the same, pro development move i have to admit, i almost believed that they actually learned something from the shitshow that EW was but nope, why would they?

Warrior main since 2.0 when a job is great there are no tweaks needed.

I don't want button bloat I hate dragoon because of all the different combos.

But there are 3 other tanks.

Each plays a little differently.

I have 3 mains war dnc whm but I play all jobs because sometimes I want a change.


I also love your 1st post on the forums I don't like the pld rework

https://a.pinatafarm.com/768x894/f9b...-no-anyway.jpg

=/

/10 char

To be fair we havent even seen the Media Tour Changes so we have nothing to say things won't change, specifically in the sense of how content plays and what things added will change as it will have to play into the jobs theme and identity.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

Warrior main since 2.0 when a job is great there are no tweaks needed.

I don't want button bloat I hate dragoon because of all the different combos.

But there are 3 other tanks.

Each plays a little differently.

I have 3 mains war dnc whm but I play all jobs because sometimes I want a change.


I also love your 1st post on the forums I don't like the pld rework

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Curious, how would this make more button bloat? So far anything added has been abilities changing into new abilities.

Come on man, at least wait until the Media Tour before complaining. There will be plenty of "questionable" decisions then.

Not saying that you're wrong or that anything will change, mind you. Most people can read between the lines of the last few years and know nothing is changing, but let's get some tangible evidence first for the useless job feedback.

We still have no idea what they're gonna do with jobs even with the vague statements made.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

We still have no idea what they're gonna do with jobs even with the vague statements made.

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I feel like we always go "just wait and see" when it comes to every expansion, then afterwards go "well, there is always next expansion".

Anyone else notice this?

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Originally Posted by Sebs

it was said that there will be no changes to the jobs and they will only add more stuff to them

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Adding stuff = changes. It can actually change a rotation, especially if a trait is involved. Things can and probably will change for some jobs. I think what he meant was they won't get harder to play.

Instead, the content will be more engaging/fun to make up for it.

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yet again the devs have proved that they didn't learn shit from EW so the jobs are getting another EW treatment, ive been playing WAR since i started the game in ShB so ive had 0 changes from the job that is currently and nor i shall have for another 2+ years.

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In some form or another, WAR has always been Fell Cleave spam tbh. That always was Warrior. Can it ever truly not be that after all this time?

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im tank main and tanking in this game has made me hate tanking overall in any game

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I've been a tank main since ARR and I still enjoy it. But I do miss some of the things we have lost, including stance dancing, positioning bosses, accounting for buff ranges, the differences in tank survival that we used to have in ShB, needing to learn tank buster casts, interrupts on trash that seem to have been forgotten.

But we have gained things, too. I find Reprisal a very versatile ability that didn't exist in the past (it was a specific physical/magic down attached to combos). Utility such as Nascent Flash, The Blackest Night and Heart of Corundum didn't exist previously, but now you can save players with them - the closest we had in Heavensward was just PLD's Cover. We do still have to position bosses a bit - to fight the recenter system and prevent the boss from spinning when it recenters.

He did mention about the hitboxes being too big. Reducing them may help tanks to a degree. But I hope some of the recentering stuff gets improved.

Where exactly do your expectations lie, OP? Do they line up directly with changes you're hoping for?

I would love nothing more than for Yoshi to come out and say they are going to nerf WAR to the ground and reduce the power of healer oGCDs by half. However, my expectations are very far from those kind of changes.

Ultimately, I know that there will be changes because there always is come a new expansion. I know some things I will approve of, others I will not. You have to make a decision whether or not to buy the next expansion and roll with it. You don't have to make that decision right now. There is still a lot Yoshi and co. cannot reveal at this time. I'd say around the time of the job actions trailer is when we will know enough about what's going on to make an informed decision. It's ok to remain hopeful, but keep your expectations reasonably grounded.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

Curious, how would this make more button bloat? So far anything added has been abilities changing into new abilities.

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Yeah, I was kinda scratching my head at that comment too. Generally, button bloat refers to the lack of space on an action bar due to an overabundance of abilities that take up slots on the action bar. An ability that changes into a different ability as part of a combo, such as dragoon combos, actually helps to avoid button bloat if anything.

As long as I can keep my unga-bunga, this hamster will figure it out. Eventually. Maybe.

I'd like less bloat for black mage and PLD
but what changes would you want to see with WAR? (I've dabbled in playing the class and had fun, but folks who've main'd it might have a difference of opinion)

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Originally Posted by Niroken

I feel like we always go "just wait and see" when it comes to every expansion, then afterwards go "well, there is always next expansion".

Anyone else notice this?

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It's either that or getting all riled up over every tiny scrap, even (sometimes especially) things that never end up happening anyway.

There is no in-between.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

It's either that or getting all riled up over every tiny scrap, even (sometimes especially) things that never end up happening anyway.

There is no in-between.

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There's plenty of it, it's ignored constantly when people try to have nuanced discussions and people who have no interest outside their sphere of interest come in and derail or talk about semantics/ have sementics based arguments, fail to understand examples or hyberbole if not outright hyperfocusing on said examples and hyperbole.

A lot of forum regulars also like to troll well meaning posts from non regulars and take away from their examples when they are trying to speak from the middle ground. You regularly come into posts with little to contribute to the point along with a few others and help in the derailing.

So while yeah this post is just un-needed whining with no bases, I've rarely seen you try to defend a point or speak from the middle.

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Originally Posted by Niroken

I feel like we always go "just wait and see" when it comes to every expansion, then afterwards go "well, there is always next expansion".

Anyone else notice this?

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I guess I'm just cautiously optimistic, and try to avoid making assumptions over scant information -- especially if there are chances it could be mistranslated/misconstrued. It's like when people started dooming over the small amount of information we got about Pictomancer. There is just not enough information regarding job changes to make assumptions.

Didn't they say Astro and Dragoon was going to get reworked?

I'm confused, as I've only seem summary's but I don't think we will know what Jobs will get decent Changes. It's not out of the realm of possibility that jobs like warrior might get changes to it's rotation or whatever. Personally I felt like Warrior played way better in SHB lol.

Here's hoping they "fix" the mess of 6.3 PLD but I'm not expecting much, at least I know Black Mage will always be fun.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Where exactly do your expectations lie, OP? Do they line up directly with changes you're hoping for?

I would love nothing more than for Yoshi to come out and say they are going to nerf WAR to the ground and reduce the power of healer oGCDs by half. However, my expectations are very far from those kind of changes.

Ultimately, I know that there will be changes because there always is come a new expansion. I know some things I will approve of, others I will not. You have to make a decision whether or not to buy the next expansion and roll with it. You don't have to make that decision right now. There is still a lot Yoshi and co. cannot reveal at this time. I'd say around the time of the job actions trailer is when we will know enough about what's going on to make an informed decision. It's ok to remain hopeful, but keep your expectations reasonably grounded.

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I share similar sentiments. "Jobs won't change" is kind of a silly statement given that we know two jobs are undergoing reworks, dragoon and astrologian. Clearly some jobs are undergoing some amount of change--change that was too big to deliver midway through an expansion. So honestly I have no idea what Yoshi P is talking about.

We'll get the benchmark, the job actions trailer, and the media tour in roughly the next couple of months. There will still be time to get all the preorder bonuses after that information is revealed. At the same time though, I'm kind of tired of them putting off any information of job adjustments this long. They can't not be aware that there is some amount of tension in regards to job design, so they are intentionally leaving us hanging, which I'm not a fan of.

It's also just really strange in general that they reveal job adjustments and new actions so late given that, had they revealed that information much earlier, they would have considerably more time to receive feedback about those changes and potentially adjust them based on the feedback if needed. Honestly, if we had some sort of test environment for new expansion job changes back in like, December, they could get hands-on feedback from players with half a year to act upon. But we'll just wait last minute I guess.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I share similar sentiments. "Jobs won't change" is kind of a silly statement given that we know two jobs are undergoing reworks, dragoon and astrologian. Clearly some jobs are undergoing some amount of change--change that was too big to deliver midway through an expansion. So honestly I have no idea what Yoshi P is talking about.

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Tinfoil hat theory maybe he means jobs won't go outside the burst meta (2 minute raid buffs) as that's been a common complaint... That or no "major" Universal changes to role categories like how Tank stances got reworked in SHB, TP In stormblood or barrier/pure split in EW.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Tinfoil hat theory maybe he means jobs won't go outside the burst meta (2 minute raid buffs) as that's been a common complaint... That or no "major" Universal changes to role categories like how Tank stances got reworked in SHB, TP In stormblood or barrier/pure split in EW.

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It's possible, but as you said, it's a tinfoil hat theory, as will any theory at this point. As usual, the language used is vague and avoids actually saying anything of value, but then again, we've also had examples of specifically mentioned changes that hadn't come to pass. Prior to Endwalker's release, there was a statement that the healers outside of white mage would receive something similar to the stun on Holy--something that wasn't the same as just putting a stun on every healer AOE attack, but that each healer would have a similar answer like it, and that was never referenced again.

At this point, I'll believe it when I see it, pretty much.

I’m just very happy I’ll be able to be the job I always wanted to be. Pictomancer! As I am irl too so I’m super stoked. Also seeing that chocobo brush we’re gonna get with preorder made me super happy. Looks like the palette will take on different shapes like sage weapons. I’m soooo happy I could cry. Teehee

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It's also just really strange in general that they reveal job adjustments and new actions so late given that, had they revealed that information much earlier, they would have considerably more time to receive feedback about those changes and potentially adjust them based on the feedback if needed. Honestly, if we had some sort of test environment for new expansion job changes back in like, December, they could get hands-on feedback from players with half a year to act upon. But we'll just wait last minute I guess.

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We can always consider the drop of an expansion a game wide beta test of what they've cooked up. The decisions surrounding this were likely green-lighted well before and hopefully based on feedback from the previous expansion. Obviously, they can't reveal any new abilities, or major job reworks prior to this, and not every design choice is going to be knocked out of the park. Some will foul right into the toilet like the decision to remove kenki management from SAM. But the job actions trailer is one of the most exciting and anticipated parts of a new expansion.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Prior to Endwalker's release, there was a statement that the healers outside of white mage would receive something similar to the stun on Holy--something that wasn't the same as just putting a stun on every healer AOE attack, but that each healer would have a similar answer like it, and that was never referenced again.

At this point, I'll believe it when I see it, pretty much.

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Iirc, this was something they were thinking about but never actually confirmed they were going to do. It is still possible that they implement whatever this is. A bit of a stretch, but it is possible they've listened to feedback about WHM not really having anything that stands out from the other healers; something that gives them a definitive edge and simply chose to leave things as is. What was definitely confirmed was that they wanted to give each healer an additional skill to help them out. This ended up being Aquaveil, Protraction, Exaltation, and Krasis for WHM, SCH, AST, and SGE respectively.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

We can always consider the drop of an expansion a game wide beta test of what they've cooked up. The decisions surrounding this were likely green-lighted well before and hopefully based on feedback from the previous expansion. Obviously, they can't reveal any new abilities, or major job reworks prior to this, and not every design choice is going to be knocked out of the park. Some will foul right into the toilet like the decision to remove kenki management from SAM. But the job actions trailer is one of the most exciting and anticipated parts of a new expansion.

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I guess it's just more bizarre to me because regardless of changes and decisions being green-lit ahead of time anyway, offering a public testing space for the next expansions changes can give you access to information that is literally worth tens of thousands of dollars for no additional cost, or very little cost to create the space in which those changes can be tested, comparatively speaking. Think about how many people you'd need to hire and pay for however much time to collect the same amount of data internally. And its not like having a public testing zone makes you obligated to adhere to any specific piece of feedback given. The beauty of information is the options that it gives you.

I'm also just astounded at how much time it takes for noteworthy changes to actually be made in response to feedback. White mage's Afflatus Misery being too weak was feedback being given since basically day 1 of Shadowbringers, yet we didn't see change until 6.1 nearly 3 years later--something that literally took someone several seconds to change. FFXIV moves at the speed of a beached whale. I would think every ounce of foreknowledge would be that much more valuable to the design team regardless of whether or not any particular bit of feedback is acted upon.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

https://a.pinatafarm.com/768x894/f9b...-no-anyway.jpg

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Why did you feel the need to post that?
Gameplay concerns in terms of tanking are valid.

Oh man I can't wait to spam Broil V

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Oh man I can't wait to spam Broil V

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Excuse me I think you mean high broil and it will have a WHOPPING potency of TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY FIVE because square will just adjust the other 4 broil’s down

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Originally Posted by Sebs

in the PAX 2024 stream it was said that there will be no changes to the jobs

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Do you have the timestamp for this? It strikes me as a bit of a strange statement given that we already know that there are two job reworks scheduled for 7.0.

To be fair, Yoshi did lament the current state of battle content with giant hitboxes and whatnot. Id prefer bigger job changes but content going back to pre EW difficulty is good as well. If he sticks with his words that is.

SMN is never getting added back :^)

I feel as if theyre not open to job suggestions due to their no info stance under the guise of harsh feedback. Then they begrudgingly do changes once we get to actually play.

That phrase killed whatever hype I had for DT ngl, going away from the 2m meta, healers being useless 1 button spammers, extreme oversimplification and homogenization is literally the only thing I was hoping DT to do and they wont even do that.

It seems they have not learned the lessons that no matter how varied or hard you make the content, without a good job design backing it, it will turn into a boring piece of content fast.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

That phrase killed whatever hype I had for DT ngl, going away from the 2m meta, healers being useless 1 button spammers, extreme oversimplification and homogenization is literally the only thing I was hoping DT to do and they wont even do that.

It seems they have not learned the lessons that no matter how varied or hard you make the content, without a good job design backing it, it will turn into a boring piece of content fast.

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Without good job design it hurts the Replayability the most, If every job plays very samey then what's the point of redoing content on a different job for a new experience, you've already done the "Content" you will get the same gameplay experience playing a Different job so it becomes just more bland to even do a fight on a different job, Which in turn actually hurts the content you are going through.

The fundamental Issue with EW as I see it was Always Job design, if Jobs were more fun and varied then it would take way longer if you played more jobs to get bored during a dull moment during a patch cycle. Leveling and learning jobs would be intresting, Ect.

Even one key issue, early level jobs being fixed would at Least make it so players would actually have fun synching down and doing old content, but it's just not fun or satisfying enough at 50.... 60... even 70 for a lot of jobs.

The content can be good, fun but the Jobs are what makes the game Interesting and unique, they're quite literally a core fundamental of a MMORPG, but Job design has been ignored for the sake of easy balance to avoid one job slightly underperforming, Healers are designed around healing but don't need to heal most the time, Tanks have become over time more easier DPS wise with no aggro management, Ranged losing most utility outside of buffing flat damage numbers, Even Melee feel a bit samey to me having very similar buffs a lot of the time getting more basic, ect.

It's really not a surprise anymore that jobs will likely remain in the 2 minute meta, Healers will stay the same, tanks will say the same, I think the statement was more that no fundamental job Ideals change, as a Tank player I can only hope that fight designs actually take into account tank mitigations and healers heal kits more at the very least but that's a stretch.

I think WAR is actually in a pretty good spot as it currently exists. It doesn't need any excessive makeovers.

And if they start reworking it, it could always end up like PLD... Where they completely reworked the class in 6.3 which nerfed the class severely, they've since slightly buffed it just about every patch afterwards and I think it's STILL weaker than it was before the rework...



But for Healers... I sure am looking forward to getting new OGCD ways to avoid casting heals, because that's what the devs think healers need and want.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

I think WAR is actually in a pretty good spot as it currently exists. It doesn't need any excessive makeovers.

And if they start reworking it, it could always end up like PLD... Where they completely reworked the class in 6.3 which nerfed the class severely, they've since slightly buffed it just about every patch afterwards and I think it's STILL weaker than it was before the rework...



But for Healers... I sure am looking forward to getting new OGCD ways to avoid casting heals, because that's what the devs think healers need and want.

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I mean it’s kinda funny here you don’t make the connection that WAR is a big contributor to healers problems

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Without good job design it hurts the Replayability the most, If every job plays very samey then what's the point of redoing content on a different job for a new experience, you've already done the "Content" you will get the same gameplay experience playing a Different job so it becomes just more bland to even do a fight on a different job, Which in turn actually hurts the content you are going through.

The fundamental Issue with EW as I see it was Always Job design, if Jobs were more fun and varied then it would take way longer if you played more jobs to get bored during a dull moment during a patch cycle. Leveling and learning jobs would be intresting, Ect.

Even one key issue, early level jobs being fixed would at Least make it so players would actually have fun synching down and doing old content, but it's just not fun or satisfying enough at 50.... 60... even 70 for a lot of jobs.

The content can be good, fun but the Jobs are what makes the game Interesting and unique, they're quite literally a core fundamental of a MMORPG, but Job design has been ignored for the sake of easy balance to avoid one job slightly underperforming, Healers are designed around healing but don't need to heal most the time, Tanks have become over time more easier DPS wise with no aggro management, Ranged losing most utility outside of buffing flat damage numbers, Even Melee feel a bit samey to me having very similar buffs a lot of the time getting more basic, ect.

It's really not a surprise anymore that jobs will likely remain in the 2 minute meta, Healers will stay the same, tanks will say the same, I think the statement was more that no fundamental job Ideals change, as a Tank player I can only hope that fight designs actually take into account tank mitigations and healers heal kits more at the very least but that's a stretch.

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I think a lot of players don't recognize or weren't around to know that the pendulum has swung in completely the other direction. Back during Stormblood when gameplay was basically exactly what people are asking for now, they griped just as much about it. They didn't complain that job design and encounter design was too difficult, but rather it was a convoluted mess on nonsense. Some of the complaints were, but not limited to:

• Tanks staying in their defensive stance
• Tanks staying in their offensive stance, putting more pressure on healers to keep them alive (healers did not have as much oGCD power as they do now)
• Tanks positioning the bosses poorly
• Healers focusing too much on damage (i.e. not healing)
• Healers adjust (scapegoating healers for player dumbassery)
• AST numerous redesigns leading to 'delete WHM' threads and memes
• Bowmage
• Gunmage
• Monk job design
• Players not lining up their raid buffs
• Gatekeeping
• Job adjustments leading to leap frogging in raid content and forced job compositions (meta)
• Alliance raid abandons (often at the last boss, or penultimate boss)

I remember all of this, and the game in its current state has addressed every single thing I listed. Again, I am not saying the game as it is right now is a good thing, but rather the opposite end of an extreme that is in response to another. The game will never return to how it was in Stormblood, and that is a good thing, but it is also a very bad thing for the game to remain as it is right now. Another Myths of the Realm cannot be allowed, Tanks should not have the self-sustain they currently do, they need to give healers more to do, 2-minute meta has to go away or not force homogenization among the game's jobs.

We'll see what they've chosen to do very, very soon. Whatever it is though, we will have to live with it for another 2+ years.

The thing about warrior is I don’t understand why it has Nascent Flash or a party wide Shake it Off. Literally nothing about the identity of a berserker gives me “supports the party” vibes. I see a fighter who doesn’t care if their teammates live or die, they just fight till they can’t fight anymore.

Inversely, though, I do wish healing utility from jobs like Paladin and Dancer could feel helpful while also not impeding on the healing expected of healers. It’s so hard to add utility to jobs because the game stifles situations where utility can be useful. Silence? No harder fights have any interruptible abilities. Stun/Sleep? Few fights have adds where stun or sleep could be helpful, and even the ones where we do have them, those enemies cannot be CC’d. Esuna? Almost no fights inflict debuffs that can be cleansed. MP refresh? MP is basically just a window decoration at this point. Helping with healing could be another way some jobs could differentiate themselves if healing were something we needed more often.

Didn't YP say previously that we should expect 'new rotations' or something like that? Sadly I don't remember this precisely (or even to say if I read completely wrong) to get the quote from the keynote.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The thing about warrior is I don’t understand why it has Nascent Flash or a party wide Shake it Off.

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You've been around a long time, according to your forum date? Back in Heavensward, there was a problem with Warrior and Dark Knight, which is they had no utility/party support compared to Paladin. This problem started to be addressed in Stormblood, where Reprisal became a Role Action and Blackest Night was added to Dark Knight so they could protect others.

But that wasn't enough. Warrior had nothing to bring to the table to protect others. It was selfish. In a patch, they transformed Shake It Off into a raid-wide mitigation that could be used to protect others. I was happy they found a way to build upon that in Shadowbringers with Nascent Flash. It was a unique way to go about it, dealing damage to heal others. Different from Paladin. Dare I say, unique and built upon its Bloodbath ability it once had.

(It is unfortunate that they gave Bloodbath away to all the DPS and wrecked that uniqueness, although I find it useful when playing DPS when I get tanks that don't know how to tank.)

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

You've been around a long time, according to your forum date? Back in Heavensward, there was a problem with Warrior and Dark Knight, which is they had no utility/party support compared to Paladin. This problem started to be addressed in Stormblood, where Reprisal became a Role Action and Blackest Night was added to Dark Knight so they could protect others.

But that wasn't enough. Warrior had nothing to bring to the table to protect others. It was selfish. In a patch, they transformed Shake It Off into a raid-wide mitigation that could be used to protect others. I was happy they found a way to build upon that in Shadowbringers with Nascent Flash. It was a unique way to go about it, dealing damage to heal others. Different from Paladin. Dare I say, unique and built upon its Bloodbath ability it once had.

(It is unfortunate that they gave Bloodbath away to all the DPS and wrecked that uniqueness, although I find it useful when playing DPS when I get tanks that don't know how to tank.)

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And let’s not forget which tank was in the toilet in HW

the tanks don’t inherently need raidwide support or other party member protection, that’s supposed to be the purview of the shield healers

Just pointing out the OP mentioned changes, not additional abilities.

Personally, I think most jobs are in a relatiively good spot right now. I've leved almost all the DPS classes now, and am currently working on Dragoon at level 85. I see no issues there either. Honestly, I think people are boosting and getting confused in the seeming swamp of new buttons instead of learning the right way, adding one ability at a time.

Sheesh.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

I think WAR is actually in a pretty good spot as it currently exists. It doesn't need any excessive makeovers.

And if they start reworking it, it could always end up like PLD... Where they completely reworked the class in 6.3 which nerfed the class severely, they've since slightly buffed it just about every patch afterwards and I think it's STILL weaker than it was before the rework...

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I'm at the point where I want a massive rework for Warrior, even if it gets "nerfed", at least there's a possibility that it might evolve beyond "press button, spam Fell Cleave...but sometimes it's not called Fell Cleave".

CBU3 has managed to barely change the formula since 4.2 and somehow still made it the blandest, most braindead, iteration of said formula at the same time.

If you actually pay attention to the gameplay it's almost depressing, watching paint dry is more engaging.