DRK AST premade issue. one trick pony strategy

So basically we have 1 DRK and 3 AST premades, and all those people do every day is do Salted Earth followed by Macrocosm.
Literally the only thing I see every day, every match, the same lame strategy every time. DRK dives in, press their vacuum cleaner ability while his AST buddies press a single button killing everyone.
I think it's about to time outright remove Salted Earth or at the very least remove the draw-in effect it has because Jesus Christ, a single job shouldn't change how FL plays out every match.

I may as well be shouting at the sky but I'm sure I'm not the only person extremely not satisfied with the current state of Frontline.
Salted Earth > 3x Macrocosm > Rinse and Repeat
That's it, that's what Frontline is today, people doing this obnoxious strategy that only requires just a very few button presses then they think they're hot shit for padding out their damage and K/D ratio in the scoreboard afterwards. But I'm sure we'll be forced to play like this until Square Enix wakes up in a year and realize how bad it really is.

TL;DR
Remove Salted Earth or its draw-in effect as most of FL balancing problems can be attributed to this single obnoxious ability.

As you'll see from other recent threads, you're not the only person complaining about this, but unfortunately there's by no means a consensus. My own frustration with the current situation means I've gone from > 15 hrs/week FL to 0 for the moment. A steady stream of the 2nd and 3rd place teams on Onsal struggling to reach 700 just sucked the fun out of it.

It's unfortunate we don't (apparently) have the opportunity for play-testing or a test server to address these issues empirically. I would guess, for example, that changing the current queue in FL to solo-only might be basically a flick of a switch. If we could play FL for a week under those conditions, I think we could determine whether premades are the primary problem (as I suspect). If nothing improves, I'll quit yapping and many of the other interesting solutions could be tried.

Square enix does not care. They are too busy making more merch to milk the beyond ff14 simpin wage slaves. Just do like me and stop playing. Maybe we get something better in 7.0 but I would set expectation to a solid 0 if I was you.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/EjzJxwcqpO2ly/giphy.gif

The issue is not Salted Earth existing, it is Salted Earth existing with no drawback at 6 or more targets. The second issue is Macrocosmos existing with 12000 base damage rather than the 8000 it was supposed to stay at.

Stop suggesting stupid changes like removing Salted Earth, it is a normal ability in the mode it is intended in. Removing the draw-in in general would cripple the ability, so ask for changes suited for large-scale PvP. Also seriously, Macrocosmos should not do this much damage for a 15y radius (!!) oGCD.

Suggested changes
DRK
- Salted Earth:-80%/-90%/-100% draw-in effect on target #6 or more
[Reasoning] Salted Earth needs no global change, only one that affects Frontlines and Rival Wings. The ability is less broken than you think it is. Gravity II change also brings the ability usecase in line with WHM's Afflatus Misery.

AST
- Macrocosmos: base damage 12000 -> 8000 (revert to old damage)
- Gravity II (non-Doublecast): 8000 -> 12000
[Reasoning] Keeps overall burst potential of AST the same on 5y radius / single-target and nerfs the 15y radius nuke it currently is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

The issue is not Salted Earth existing, it is Salted Earth existing with no drawback at 6 or more targets. The second issue is Macrocosmos existing with 12000 base damage rather than the 8000 it was supposed to stay at.

Stop suggesting stupid changes like removing Salted Earth, it is a normal ability in the mode it is intended in. Removing the draw-in in general would cripple the ability, so ask for changes suited for large-scale PvP. Also seriously, Macrocosmos should not do this much damage for a 15y radius (!!) oGCD.

Suggested changes
DRK
- Salted Earth:-80%/-90%/-100% draw-in effect on target #6 or more
[Reasoning] Salted Earth needs no global change, only one that affects Frontlines and Rival Wings. The ability is less broken than you think it is. Gravity II change also brings the ability usecase in line with WHM's Afflatus Misery.

AST
- Macrocosmos: base damage 12000 -> 8000 (revert to old damage)
- Gravity II (non-Doublecast): 8000 -> 12000
[Reasoning] Keeps overall burst potential of AST the same on 5y radius / single-target and nerfs the 15y radius nuke it currently is.

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I do agree that the issue is the number of targets for DRKs (as well as some other jobs).

Regarding AST - I see why you are proposing those changes , however those changes would also impact healing and from what I can see that would mean that AST would have both less AOE damage than a WHM and less AOE healing (I'm not considering their LBs), so that would be a "no" from me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

The issue is not Salted Earth existing, it is Salted Earth existing with no drawback at 6 or more targets. The second issue is Macrocosmos existing with 12000 base damage rather than the 8000 it was supposed to stay at.

Stop suggesting stupid changes like removing Salted Earth, it is a normal ability in the mode it is intended in. Removing the draw-in in general would cripple the ability, so ask for changes suited for large-scale PvP. Also seriously, Macrocosmos should not do this much damage for a 15y radius (!!) oGCD.

Suggested changes
DRK
- Salted Earth:-80%/-90%/-100% draw-in effect on target #6 or more
[Reasoning] Salted Earth needs no global change, only one that affects Frontlines and Rival Wings. The ability is less broken than you think it is. Gravity II change also brings the ability usecase in line with WHM's Afflatus Misery.

AST
- Macrocosmos: base damage 12000 -> 8000 (revert to old damage)
- Gravity II (non-Doublecast): 8000 -> 12000
[Reasoning] Keeps overall burst potential of AST the same on 5y radius / single-target and nerfs the 15y radius nuke it currently is.

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No I won't stop suggesting that because Salted Earth sucks as it is. Your job identity revolves on using Plunge, Salted Earth on a group of people who can barely see that coming in the midst of name blobs unless the DRK is marked. I have no issue with it in CC but on FL it's so unbalanced it's not even funny, it's just a dumb ability where people with strong aoes use to take advantage of it.
Salted Earth must lose it's draw-in or be outright removed since this single ability makes Frontline awful to play.
"It's less broken than you think it is"
lol no. It's responsible for most of the awful metas you see pop up and needs to go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EZGIL

https://media1.giphy.com/media/EjzJxwcqpO2ly/giphy.gif

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Why did you post that .gif symbolizing Dark Knights when people call out their one trick pony playstyle that they repeat ad nauseum?

My Wife and i also play less and less because we ALWAYS have a DRK/AST/DRG premade and you just die in the draw-in movement THROUGH shield cause somehow the delay counts the AST/DRG damage before the shield mitigation.
We try to play a few Games and when we see premades we usually stop, wich is currently, always.

It's a premade/zerg issue, not just DRK/AST. Many other job combos shred though entire teams just as efficiently. There were several DRK/AST on our side today joking around about how it's the "meta" now...before promptly finishing with zero kills because there was, per usual, no coordination. Problem is these guys think they can just queue up as DRK, put a marker on themselves, and that's good enough to win. It's never the case.

also, literally™

- Add CC immunity after first CC ( prevent chain cc)
- Salted Earth : Remove/rework the draw in effect ( animation lock is the issue here).

People can say it's not DRK/AST but it's always the DRK/AST combos that melt entire teams. I've played plenty of FL where I could survive a harrowing encounter against multiple players with well-timed guard, heals, CC, etc. but by the time my guard even takes effect after getting pulled in by a DRK I go from 100% to <30% (or even just outright dead), and I'm pretty quick.

If it wasn't so broken, people wouldn't do it so much and other players wouldn't be complaining about them exclusively.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doozer

People can say it's not DRK/AST but it's always the DRK/AST combos that melt entire teams. I've played plenty of FL where I could survive a harrowing encounter against multiple players with well-timed guard, heals, CC, etc. but by the time my guard even takes effect after getting pulled in by a DRK I go from 100% to <30% (or even just outright dead), and I'm pretty quick.

If it wasn't so broken, people wouldn't do it so much and other players wouldn't be complaining about them exclusively.

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Then you probably understand that their attack came before you applied Guard, even for a split second late.

And i speak as someone who survived like 4 or 5 BH5 Macrocosmos + BH5 DRG LB with a full Guard effect. It is also shows how FL can easily nuke you from orbit when players decide to unleash everything at same time, Guard is not exactly your best tool for reactionary gameplay at least in FL, haven't seen a single person being able to react Guard a MCH's or SMN's LB either because the moment you press the attack button, it registers that even visually they look like they are readying up (Bahamut appears or Marksman aim).

I say that not because a coordinate attack is always going to be the exact timing which can easily screw people up

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

It's a premade/zerg issue, not just DRK/AST. Many other job combos shred though entire teams just as efficiently. There were several DRK/AST on our side today joking around about how it's the "meta" now...before promptly finishing with zero kills because there was, per usual, no coordination. Problem is these guys think they can just queue up as DRK, put a marker on themselves, and that's good enough to win. It's never the case.

also, literally™

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doozer

People can say it's not DRK/AST but it's always the DRK/AST combos that melt entire teams. I've played plenty of FL where I could survive a harrowing encounter against multiple players with well-timed guard, heals, CC, etc. but by the time my guard even takes effect after getting pulled in by a DRK I go from 100% to <30% (or even just outright dead), and I'm pretty quick.

If it wasn't so broken, people wouldn't do it so much and other players wouldn't be complaining about them exclusively.

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As VictorSpoils said, if a team is being blown up from what I've seen it can one of several strong premades or a much more focussed team on the other side, which is not a premade, and I've seen various compositions, often DRK (or DRKs) with multiple DRG , with an AST thrown in, you'd probably enjoy that less.

As an AST I can survive getting pulled in by a DRK, multiple chained pulls? Hah :eek:. So, I don't know why you're having the issue of your guard taking effect, if you're hitting it too late (no, I'm not blaming you) - if you have latency issues then you may need to compensate for that. There have been some threads I believe mentioning issues with guard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

Then you probably understand that their attack came before you applied Guard, even for a split second late.

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Yes, because nothing bad ever happens in relation to server ticks in this game. Everyone has only imagined it. :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Yes, because nothing bad ever happens in relation to server ticks in this game. Everyone has only imagined it. :rolleyes:

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I am saying that you are getting clapped BEFORE you use the Guard, i am not defending how god awful the servers are.

For a serious answer to OP, the drawn in effect from Salted Earth should just go away and treat it like a random dot aoe, if not removed because it is also absurd how a single DRK can pull the whole world in even from far away, having multiple also sucks for that reason (plus it does not help they have annoying LB).

I highly doubt it gets removed or even reworked for now though.
Plus it won't stop people for pretty much getting the most aoe/burst focused composition, FL needs a bigger change than just stat changes

or u know, add skills like sacred prism and carnal chill back to the game, a counter

https://i.imgur.com/JsJpSPC.png
base version, I think you could upgrade the % mitigation even further

https://i.imgur.com/dRHSqa1.png
same here, 60% upgraded version, basically a aoe range reprisal for a few seconds
https://i.imgur.com/sVzZRQN.png

This could be frontline exclusive duty abilities on a high cooldown, instead of a skillset used in CrystalConflict as well.

DR on some jobs is already quite high so having a utility available to all jobs, when they already have a self heal doesn't seem to be a good direction. However there are jobs that have some mitigation tools such as :

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Mesotes_(PvP) if you've got a Sage. Not to mention that https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...al_River_(PvP) is going to reduce damage significantly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

I am saying that you are getting clapped BEFORE you use the Guard,

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I've hit Guard immediately as soon as I see the Salted Earth and before I get pulled in, which still pulls me in because of server ticks, and then I still get blasted. I've literally been in Guard and still lose 70% of my HP, which doesn't make sense. That aspect of the game is broken, stop trying to put that on me for not Guarding the entire match in preparation. And saying the strategy to a braindead comp is having frame perfect reflexes is impossible to ask of 99% of players. There's a lot of things at play here that don't work well in a PvP system, and surprisingly it's not related to player skill. Quit simping for SE on this one, bud.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

DR on some jobs is already quite high so having a utility available to all jobs, when they already have a self heal doesn't seem to be a good direction. However there are jobs that have some mitigation tools such as :

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Mesotes_(PvP) if you've got a Sage. Not to mention that https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...al_River_(PvP) is going to reduce damage significantly.

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There is too much selfheal in frontline, I don't think there is enough DR or utility, those abilities you mentioned are limit breaks, so its quite rare and job dependent - while it should be more a role skill for all tanks and healers in general. Can I even TBN or cover a alliance member outside of my group? Nope, you have to watch that guy die, even if your skills are ready. And as you don't have clemency on PLD or a stun on DRK or GNB, there is little you can do. Feels like playing with your arms tied behind your back.

I think sprint should cost MP too if you ask me, like a 1000MP tick every 3s. Or they should increase the cost of the selfheal to 5000 MP, but then it will cause issues in crystal conflict, if its 5000 there too. I never was a fan of making healers so useless in healing, I kinda liked the tank-healer-dps trinity. But making healers too strong will just replace one problem with the next indeed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I've hit Guard immediately as soon as I see the Salted Earth and before I get pulled in, which still pulls me in because of server ticks, and then I still get blasted. I've literally been in Guard and still lose 70% of my HP, which doesn't make sense. That aspect of the game is broken, stop trying to put that on me for not Guarding the entire match in preparation. And saying the strategy to a braindead comp is having frame perfect reflexes is impossible to ask of 99% of players. There's a lot of things at play here that don't work well in a PvP system, and surprisingly it's not related to player skill. Quit simping for SE on this one, bud.

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To some degree it is latency/coding ofc, buffs take time to be "active". But it works both ways, you can go in dragoon LB and be in the sky flying around while still being hit by a dnc or reaper LB, so you cant steer it into the direction you want. Or a sage stepping out of his LB groundeffect, still remaining the invincibility buff for a second or two.

Usually premades will add a guardbreaker ability into their DRK drawin effect, like a war, dnc or reaper LB, this can happen quite instantly, without you even noticing. There are skills that ignore Guard.

I mostly play dragoon, which has a backflip, in 95% of the cases I can evade it I would say. If they play broken jobs, you should play them too. Doesn't matter how good your skill is, its the job balance that is at fault more than the servers I would say. They cant fix the inherent delay without making a new game, so we can only get used to it and counter it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I've hit Guard immediately as soon as I see the Salted Earth and before I get pulled in, which still pulls me in because of server ticks, and then I still get blasted. I've literally been in Guard and still lose 70% of my HP, which doesn't make sense. That aspect of the game is broken, stop trying to put that on me for not Guarding the entire match in preparation. And saying the strategy to a braindead comp is having frame perfect reflexes is impossible to ask of 99% of players. There's a lot of things at play here that don't work well in a PvP system, and surprisingly it's not related to player skill. Quit simping for SE on this one, bud.

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Gettting called a simp while i said how much i hate the stuff i said is funny ngl

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

There is too much selfheal in frontline, I don't think there is enough DR or utility, those abilities you mentioned are limit breaks, so its quite rare and job dependent - while it should be more a role skill for all tanks and healers in general. Can I even TBN or cover a alliance member outside of my group? Nope, you have to watch that guy die, even if your skills are ready. And as you don't have clemency on PLD or a stun on DRK or GNB, there is little you can do. Feels like playing with your arms tied behind your back.

I think sprint should cost MP too if you ask me, like a 1000MP tick every 3s. Or they should increase the cost of the selfheal to 5000 MP, but then it will cause issues in crystal conflict, if its 5000 there too. I never was a fan of making healers so useless in healing, I kinda liked the tank-healer-dps trinity. But making healers too strong will just replace one problem with the next indeed.

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I can see that some jobs lack DR in FL, however some don't , because melees certainly don't feel like they lack DR in FL.

The the rate that LB charges in FL, the abilities I linked aren't "quite rare", if they were up only once per twice per match I'd agree with you, but they're up significantly more than that, but not so much (agreed) that they're spammable, which makes it more interesting. I don't agree that "it should be a role skill for all healers and tanks". One of the best things about the PvP redesign is that each healer was made distinct, as opposed to the homogenization in PvE, with them bringing good support skills. Same applies for tanks, they're each distinct- , no you don't get clemency on PLD but you do bring utility in terms of reducing damage on your LB (for example).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yukimin

So basically we have 1 DRK and 3 AST premades, and all those people do every day is do Salted Earth followed by Macrocosm.
Literally the only thing I see every day, every match, the same lame strategy every time. DRK dives in, press their vacuum cleaner ability while his AST buddies press a single button killing everyone.
I think it's about to time outright remove Salted Earth or at the very least remove the draw-in effect it has because Jesus Christ, a single job shouldn't change how FL plays out every match.

I may as well be shouting at the sky but I'm sure I'm not the only person extremely not satisfied with the current state of Frontline.
Salted Earth > 3x Macrocosm > Rinse and Repeat
That's it, that's what Frontline is today, people doing this obnoxious strategy that only requires just a very few button presses then they think they're hot shit for padding out their damage and K/D ratio in the scoreboard afterwards. But I'm sure we'll be forced to play like this until Square Enix wakes up in a year and realize how bad it really is.

TL;DR
Remove Salted Earth or its draw-in effect as most of FL balancing problems can be attributed to this single obnoxious ability.

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Sis let's duo SAM and rotate LBs just to take out the ASTs when they burst...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

because melees certainly don't feel like they lack DR in FL.

I don't agree that "it should be a role skill for all healers and tanks". One of the best things about the PvP redesign is that each healer was made distinct, as opposed to the homogenization in PvE, with them bringing good support skills. Same applies for tanks, they're each distinct- , no you don't get clemency on PLD but you do bring utility in terms of reducing damage on your LB (for example).

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Melees are not feeling the lack of DR, because melees have 50% DR all the time. It has become almost impossible to kill some jobs within a minute in a 2vs1 scenario. Giving jobs skills to mitigate, instead of being handheld to just survive any coordinated burst anyway, would be better. It would reward smart plays, and punish bad plays. Giving melees like a 50% DR 10s buff ala safeguard would be better on top of a ~25% DR inherent, than the constant 50% we have now, I would argue.

I wouldn't give each job the same skill, that would be boring indeed. But they would get skills according to their role. You argue they made healer distinct, well, they removed their healing more or less, that opens up slots for dmg spells certainly. I think it was only natural they end up being different then.

A LB on Paladin, which is also at the same time, their biggest burst. You know how much that sucks when so many skills are at the same time offense, defense and utility/cc ? Like whatever button you press, you can't do much wrong(newbie friendly...) but you also cant make complete use of it often. It is like playing with a handicap. You want to do a proper burst? Well, time to pop your biggest immunity skill right now buddy, time to stun and gapclose to get free sword oath stacks, even if you don't need that utility. Atonement is 8k potency so you have to. And also press holy sheltron, because you need a cc effect so they dont run away. They are bursting you now? Well good luck, you just wasted your complete defensive kit for doing a shitty burst.

I think I'm missing personal dmg buffs tbh. That is what it boils down too. Personal standalone dmg buffs and mitigation/utility skills. And removing skills that increase dmg based on HP threshold, because that is very laggy (because there is so much selfheal), you can't rely on it. It makes burst very random and unpredictable. Something you can't exploit very well. Which results in a low skill ceiling.

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Originally Posted by Kathleen_

Sis let's duo SAM and rotate LBs just to take out the ASTs when they burst...

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You have my blade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yukimin

So basically we have 1 DRK and 3 AST premades, and all those people do every day is do Salted Earth followed by Macrocosm.
Literally the only thing I see every day, every match, the same lame strategy every time. DRK dives in, press their vacuum cleaner ability while his AST buddies press a single button killing everyone.
I think it's about to time outright remove Salted Earth or at the very least remove the draw-in effect it has because Jesus Christ, a single job shouldn't change how FL plays out every match.

I may as well be shouting at the sky but I'm sure I'm not the only person extremely not satisfied with the current state of Frontline.
Salted Earth > 3x Macrocosm > Rinse and Repeat
That's it, that's what Frontline is today, people doing this obnoxious strategy that only requires just a very few button presses then they think they're hot shit for padding out their damage and K/D ratio in the scoreboard afterwards. But I'm sure we'll be forced to play like this until Square Enix wakes up in a year and realize how bad it really is.

TL;DR
Remove Salted Earth or its draw-in effect as most of FL balancing problems can be attributed to this single obnoxious ability.

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I want to believe that the issue is actually DRK ultimate because there is no realistic counterplay to it and they can dive over and over because why not? you won't die. SE removed SMN clean skill that was used to counterplay PLD HG back there.