GCD AST Cards, why not?

Here again to ask the stupid questions.

Seen a few folks express their disgust in the idea, but I haven't really figured out what the problem is with having AST cards being GCD skills.

I've assumed it was about making Play specifically an instant cast GCD while keeping Draw/Redraw oGCDs, so you could use Play and weave Draw and Redraw in a single GCD. It could help with giving the job some more mobility and weave windows without having to use Lightspeed.

The only issue I see is losing a cast of Malefic, but that they could cover by adding some kind of damage bonus from using Play, like a stackable buff that raises the potency of the next Malefic cast or lets you use something like doublecast from its pvp set which lets you weave a Malefic/Gravity as an oGCD.

Putting Play on the GCD gives disincentives to ever make the Card effects themselves any more interesting or in need of responsiveness.

Putting Draw on the GCD is fine, as that would give room for Redraw (even if it was returned to multiple charges independent of Draw beyond needing a Card to currently be held), and even a returned Royal Road, etc. You'd just have to roughly double the Card's current strength for it not to be skipped over in favor of Malefic.

You don't need to copy over a Misery/Toxicon mechanic to compensate for the lost ppm of dropped Malefic casts; you just have to make the Cards strong enough to compensate in themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Putting Play on the GCD gives disincentives to ever make the Card effects themselves any more interesting or in need of responsiveness.

Putting Draw on the GCD is fine, as that would give room for Redraw (even if it was returned to multiple charges independent of Draw beyond needing a Card to currently be held), and even a returned Royal Road, etc. You'd just have to roughly double the Card's current strength for it not to be skipped over in favor of Malefic.

You don't need to copy over a Misery/Toxicon mechanic to compensate for the lost ppm of dropped Malefic casts; you just have to make the Cards strong enough to compensate in themselves.

---

This is kind of what I have been thinking in regards to my past AST ideas as well... I haven't really sat down to think it out yet, but I've had this mindset of making Draw a GCD that generates DPS passively while setting you up to use cards in some fashion. The only thing about having the card effects themselves worth the loss of Malefic is it makes it really difficult to make the cards appealing to a solo AST. Ideally, you'd want something that has the flexibility to be both effective in groups and while playing alone, because there is solo content in this game and there are people who would like to have fun while using AST solo.

What I've said before is having cards and other support-oriented GCD tools generate a star that orbits the AST and can deal Malefic-potency damage either when you attack a target (as a second attack from you) or that your allies can detonate for you. But I'll reserve that for the next time I feel interested enough to really think through my more recent ideas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The only thing about having the card effects themselves worth the loss of Malefic is it makes it really difficult to make the cards appealing to a solo AST. Ideally, you'd want something that has the flexibility to be both effective in groups and while playing alone, because there is solo content in this game and there are people who would like to have fun while using AST solo.

---

Card buffs last 15s and there are at least 6 GCDs in a 15s timespan, so if Draw cost a GCD the break even point for a solo card damage buff would be 1/6 or about 16.67%. And this is just the break even point--for it to be a gain the buff has to be higher than this. There really isn't any way to make that work except to carve a solo specific case into the ability effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

Card buffs last 15s and there are at least 6 GCDs in a 15s timespan, so if Draw cost a GCD the break even point for a solo card damage buff would be 1/6 or about 16.67%. And this is just the break even point--for it to be a gain the buff has to be higher than this. There really isn't any way to make that work except to carve a solo specific case into the ability effect.

---

This seems an unnecessary complication, though you're right that a GCD Card might not see use in solo play if it didn't have any additional effects attached to it and maintained only the current %DPS buffs, with a 25% chance to see only half value on the AST itself.

It does have additional effects attached to it, though, any of which could be easily buffed in turn. Astrodyne is presently a mere pittance and is painfully inflexible (if not damn near dysfunctional). But it needn't be, and could easily add some additional value per Card that loops back to the AST's own throughput without needing a bloodlilicon mechanic.

Similarly the Cards don't have to remain as generic (and reliant on high potency-within-window) as they currently are. As far as solo play is concerned, it's just that no effect can be outright useless in solo content, nor should any require an ideal target just to see use over Malefic when accounting also for Astrodyne value (or that of its replacement) within the solo fight. (Making Astrodyne more flexible, such as by not needing all 3 Seals --and perhaps instead going from more immediate or short-term value to more long-term value with increased number of different Seasl-- would go a long way in that regard.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurarok

Seen a few folks express their disgust in the idea, but I haven't really figured out what the problem is with having AST cards being GCD skills.

---

I completely dislike the idea of GCD cards because it tears out a playstyle enjoyed by players and turns it into another playstyle that already exists. Putting cards on the GCD is like the lily system WHM has, but buffs instead of healing, might as well slap on a nuke you can use at 3 seals to completely mimic the lily system at that point. I don't see why people want cards on the GCD, you want a slow and methodical healer? WHM is right there. Some of us don't like slow-paced jobs, which is why we play AST.

Changing cards to be on the GCD is like telling SCHs that their fairy is now automatically summoned when you swap to SCH and sits on their shoulder, you can no longer interact with the fairy in any way and all her skills now originate from you. That would completely delete fairy management from the game and give nothing similar in return. That's the same problem I have with putting cards on the GCD, it would completely eliminate the fast-paced gameplay I enjoy and replace it with nothing, no other healer is as fast as AST, there will be no other option.

What AST needs is something that incentivises the usage of cards across the entire encounter rather than in a 15s window every 120s, the spread of cards would also make it so that their opener/reopener would stop being a near impossible mess unless you save Lightspeed for it. GCD cards is basically the laziest solution that can be done, which is why SE will probably make GCD cards in 7.0. They've already ruined old MCH and NIN, I'm expecting them to kill the last fast-paced job in the game at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

I completely dislike the idea of GCD cards because it tears out a playstyle enjoyed by players and turns it into another playstyle that already exists. Putting cards on the GCD is like the lily system WHM has, but buffs instead of healing, might as well slap on a nuke you can use at 3 seals to completely mimic the lily system at that point. I don't see why people want cards on the GCD, you want a slow and methodical healer? WHM is right there. Some of us don't like slow-paced jobs, which is why we play AST.

Changing cards to be on the GCD is like telling SCHs that their fairy is now automatically summoned when you swap to SCH and sits on their shoulder, you can no longer interact with the fairy in any way and all her skills now originate from you. That would completely delete fairy management from the game and give nothing similar in return. That's the same problem I have with putting cards on the GCD, it would completely eliminate the fast-paced gameplay I enjoy and replace it with nothing, no other healer is as fast as AST, there will be no other option.

---

As much as I absolutely don't want a GCD on Play... for a GCD on Draw --which wouldn't even need to use any Blood Lily- or Toxicon-like mechanic anyways-- this seems a bit of an exaggeration. And the APM, even the APM density, could certainly be made up for in other ways.

To be clear, I could take or leave Draw being off or on the GCD, given accordant tuning, though I would likewise prefer to see any APM lost to that made up for in other ways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

What AST needs is something that incentivises the usage of cards across the entire encounter rather than in a 15s window every 120s, the spread of cards would also make it so that their opener/reopener would stop being a near impossible mess unless you save Lightspeed for it. GCD cards is basically the laziest solution that can be done, which is why SE will probably make GCD cards in 7.0. They've already ruined old MCH and NIN, I'm expecting them to kill the last fast-paced job in the game at this point.

---

That one, at least, is simple: Just remove its third charge. While it says it only has two, because it begins cooling upon being Draw-n, not being Play-ed, it effectively has three. Return it to cooling only after Play, and you're already solid. There's no Astrodyne rush in the opener, nor are 3/4s of your Cards per 2 minute given within 15s.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Putting Play on the GCD gives disincentives to ever make the Card effects themselves any more interesting or in need of responsiveness.

Putting Draw on the GCD is fine, as that would give room for Redraw (even if it was returned to multiple charges independent of Draw beyond needing a Card to currently be held), and even a returned Royal Road, etc.

---

That bit was more about only making one of the card abilities a GCD as opposed to both Draw and Play becoming one, but also yes I agree that making Draw the GCD is better than Play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

I completely dislike the idea of GCD cards because it tears out a playstyle enjoyed by players and turns it into another playstyle that already exists.

---

This explains it I think. The heart of the issue for me is probably the lack of weave windows, especially since EW's changes added even more oGCDs, and so reducing an oGCD to use on top of adding an instant cast seemed like a good idea, but it would be another step towards the role's homogenization.

I won't deny it being a skill issue on my part but I feel like 1 use of lightspeed on a 90s CD doesn't really cut it when you're expected to rapidly pass out 3 cards every 2 minutes while they're also constantly throwing content at you that makes you run marathons around the arena.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Putting cards on the GCD is like the lily system WHM has, but buffs instead of healing, might as well slap on a nuke you can use at 3 seals to completely mimic the lily system at that point.

---

Thanks for giving us a preview of the AST rework for Dawntrail! :p

One of my old suggestions was to have draw function as is whilst you have charges, but change it to a GCD when you are out of charges.

Not the easiest thing to balance, but personally I'd take it over what we have right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

One of my old suggestions was to have draw function as is whilst you have charges, but change it to a GCD when you are out of charges.

Not the easiest thing to balance, but personally I'd take it over what we have right now.

---

This would leave it to, ~80+% of the time, a total value lower than that of Malefic. Sure, that'd be free damage while still oGCD, but it likely wouldn't be even as (un)impactful as it is now.

Else, you'd have to reduce AST's own DPS in compensation, with its rDPS being that much more dependent on having an ideal party of recipients, so that you open with triple-no-cost-Draws-with-Malefic, GCD Draw, Maleficx5, maybe one more GCD Draw for a 30s-miniburst (though that's basically just MCH unless GNB is worth buffing) or also on sustained-DPS every 6th GCD thereafter, another oGCD on your NIN before the 60s mark, then repeat.

Maybe worth, but those GCDs won't likely see use ever in solo content (which is fine, I guess?) and you'd at least need Cards to provide more personal-AST-power in compensation if you want them not be avoided even in most light party comps, just due to the sheer potency-in-window difference between full bursts, mini-bursts, and lulls for most jobs.

...I don't hate the idea, to be clear; it just would have some obvious balancing constraints that, even if met, might not have the most enjoyable implications.

My head cannon was always to pair it with the Stormblood era cards so it really would be a huge RNG fest. You could pull a bunch of boles and ewers or you could end up with a bunch of back to back aoe balances.

The balance issues could be managed a little by using RNG weighting, effectively giving each card a pity of sorts. A streak of good cards would leave your odds looking pretty rough for a bit and on the flip side, a run of awful cards could give you a behind the scenes boost for the good stuff.

IMO to actually be viable though, I think it would need to be paired with a shift back towards Sudo’s school of thought regarding DPS checks where the overall damage requirement isn’t actually that high, it’s little burst mechanics and specific phases or adds where stuff gets ramped up to 11.

Even if overall it’s a bit of a trap in general play, I think it’d be worthwhile trade if only to finally give us a healer that isn’t obligated to spam nukes to actually contribute in mainstream casual content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

RNG weighting

---

The biggest problem with even dynamically weighted probabilities is that people will still complain about RNG being broken when they don't get good results in the number of draws that they think they should, when random is just being random. If you keep shifting the probabilities so that the results average out over time you might as well just leave the probabilities fixed because fixed probabilities will give average results over the long term anyway. Then people won't be complaining about the dynamic weighting not working; they'll just be complaining about the things they already always complain about due to not understanding probability.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

My head cannon was always to pair it with the Stormblood era cards so it really would be a huge RNG fest. You could pull a bunch of boles and ewers or you could end up with a bunch of back to back aoe balances.

The balance issues could be managed a little by using RNG weighting, effectively giving each card a pity of sorts. A streak of good cards would leave your odds looking pretty rough for a bit and on the flip side, a run of awful cards could give you a behind the scenes boost for the good stuff.

IMO to actually be viable though, I think it would need to be paired with a shift back towards Sudo’s school of thought regarding DPS checks where the overall damage requirement isn’t actually that high, it’s little burst mechanics and specific phases or adds where stuff gets ramped up to 11.

Even if overall it’s a bit of a trap in general play, I think it’d be worthwhile trade if only to finally give us a healer that isn’t obligated to spam nukes to actually contribute in mainstream casual content.

---

Why dynamically weight to force Cards you may not want in the moment, when you could just use Seals to entice finding a good place to use them at least once per 90s, and get back AST personal output for your troubles (whereas dynamic weights have no such feature)?

GCD Cards? The way people hate gcd heals already(not saying I do or dont have problems with gcd heals) I really do not think this is a good idea sorry. Anyways as I will say in any post related to ast cards, just give back stormblood ast card kit and those who do not the complexity of stormblood ast then just play whm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why dynamically weight to force Cards you may not want in the moment, when you could just use Seals to entice finding a good place to use them at least once per 90s, and get back AST personal output for your troubles (whereas dynamic weights have no such feature)?

---

My personal (and perhaps spicy) take is that Seals go against what I think the cards should represent. If I can get some value from dumping cards that don't fit my exact criteria into seals then IMO that defeats the purpose of the system. I'd argue that even Royal Road is kind of a stretch of what's acceptable tbh. The beauty of HW's card play was that I had to build plans on the fly to adapt to what RNGesus handed down to me and it was immensely satisfying when I found uses for sequences that would otherwise be considered bad pulls (Eg Bole on the Warrior during A12S final adds to allow them to stay out of tank stance and save CDs).

Weighting RNG is purely there to stop variance making or breaking runs ala what we've sometimes seen with Crit variance during prog in some tiers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

GCD Cards? The way people hate gcd heals already(not saying I do or dont have problems with gcd heals) I really do not think this is a good idea sorry. Anyways as I will say in any post related to ast cards, just give back stormblood ast card kit and those who do not the complexity of stormblood ast then just play whm.

---

At the risk of sounding brutally rough here, I don't think you understand what you're saying and the reasoning behind it.

It's not about hating GCD heals, it's about hating wasted GCDs. Cure 1 is a GCD heal, spamming it on a tank needlessly in a dungeon is a waste of time, thus it gets hate. Afflatus Rapture is a GCD heal, spamming it on a tank needlessly in a dungeon ISN'T a waste of time because you get something back for it, thus it doesn't get hate. There's a big difference.

I can't speak for everyone and all the other suggestions out there, but in my eyes at least, the whole point of enabling an AST to spend GCDs on upping their card game (Remember, my suggestion is to keep Draw initially function as an oGCD until you are out of charges) is to provide an alternative to mashing nukes that isn't a literal waste of time most of the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

At the risk of sounding brutally rough here, I don't think you understand what you're saying and the reasoning behind it.

It's not about hating GCD heals, it's about hating wasted GCDs. Cure 1 is a GCD heal, spamming it on a tank needlessly in a dungeon is a waste of time, thus it gets hate. Afflatus Rapture is a GCD heal, spamming it on a tank needlessly in a dungeon ISN'T a waste of time because you get something back for it, thus it doesn't get hate. There's a big difference.

I can't speak for everyone and all the other suggestions out there, but in my eyes at least, the whole point of enabling an AST to spend GCDs on upping their card game (Remember, my suggestion is to keep Draw initially function as an oGCD until you are out of charges) is to provide an alternative to mashing nukes that isn't a literal waste of time most of the time.

---

I don't feel like that's the entire picture either. GCD healing is generally disliked not because it's a loss of damage specifically, but because you shouldn't need to lose that damage almost ever in most content anymore. Before, even during Stormblood to some degree, it was understood that you would need shift from attacking to healing at least occasionally. You knew you would probably need a bit of use of your heals, and thus figuring out how to use them in the most effective manner itself made them rewarding to use correctly. It's only when we started getting free healing out the ass that now GCD isn't liked, because you shouldn't need to use them at all.

Right, that's why I mentioned the whole doublecast bit to make up for that. I like WHM for actually having a GCD that's not Glare and the occasional Dia that you can use frequently enough without losing dps on anyone. It should stay WHM thing though (they should go further into it with it imo), which is one of the problems with adding something similar to another healer.

I also realized Draw/Play on the GCD would make it less flexible for weaving the card play with other double weave windows. Right now we can use combust and play and draw a card in the same GCD, but that'd no longer be an option with this.

Perhaps they could shorten the dot time on Combust to 15s and let subsequent uses extend it up to 30s so there's more frequent uses while having some wiggle room for when we can use it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

My personal (and perhaps spicy) take is that Seals go against what I think the cards should represent. If I can get some value from dumping cards that don't fit my exact criteria into seals then IMO that defeats the purpose of the system. I'd argue that even Royal Road is kind of a stretch of what's acceptable tbh. The beauty of HW's card play was that I had to build plans on the fly to adapt to what RNGesus handed down to me and it was immensely satisfying when I found uses for sequences that would otherwise be considered bad pulls (Eg Bole on the Warrior during A12S final adds to allow them to stay out of tank stance and save CDs).

Weighting RNG is purely there to stop variance making or breaking runs ala what we've sometimes seen with Crit variance during prog in some tiers.

---

This doesn't particularly make sense to me.

Having an overarching mechanic doesn't remove the reward for individual card usage or even reduce in any way the considerations that go into that. It's similar to how an AoE having some rare situational use in single-target combat, or vice-versa doesn't degrade the actions you'd normally perform, but merely adds use cases and reduces the sense of button/ability-bloat.

With it, you want to find an optimal use case for each among, say, Bole/Balance, Spear/Arrow, and Ewer/Spire at some point within each 90s --if prioritizing your own output and able to get an extra self-buff within the fight by fulfilling it per 90s-- or per 120s.

That doesn't reduce the cognitive load of individual decisions made (what cards can I best find use for in the next 60s). It just makes that decision a bit more complicated while also adding a couple extra layers of decision making that shift your priorities over the course of your gauge fulfilment.

It doesn't prevent the likes of Spread or having multiple charges on Draw or even of Royal Road (though unless balanced, RR is a poor mechanic, and even when balanced it's mostly made redundant by a second charge of Draw or any more interesting Card effects). It precludes nothing except keeping things far more simple (and yes, Old Cards w/o RR would be even simpler than New Cards with Seals).

There's no loss to including Seals or any other overarching mechanic besides just not wanting any extra cognitive load.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

<snip>

---

It's probably my pretty dated perspective on AST skewing my view tbh. I played AST a *LOT* in HW and loved it post 3.2. I had a pretty brief fling with it in early SB but couldn't get past how clunky Draw/Play/Undraw felt and never really touched it again until the first tier of EW where I realised there were 'means' to make the card hotkeys work like HW again. I'd probably have gelled better with the job but my old hands struggled with the burst window APM requirements over the course of an evening's worth of prog.

Perhaps I didn't give seals a fair shake but I'm going to play the cantankerous old Seb card and stand by my opinion that they were a lazy cop out of a system that added complexity for the sake of complexity without actually bringing enough to the table to justify their existence. Also get off my lawn ;)

I can defo agree with the difficulties of RR though, you're absolutely right that old cards without RR would be overly simplistic and IMO spending GCDs to single target buff the group for a burst window probably isn't going to feel all that great. The old cards were great not so much because of the cards themselves, but because of how not only Spread and RR worked, but also the interactions with time extensions and other AST buffs such as Shroud and Regens.

That does make me think though, what about the idea of having Seals grant a targetable 'totem' that we can place and AoE cards off? I'd much rather get that than a minuscule buff tbh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

It's probably my pretty dated perspective on AST skewing my view tbh. I played AST a *LOT* in HW and loved it post 3.2. I had a pretty brief fling with it in early SB but couldn't get past how clunky Draw/Play/Undraw felt.

---

HW was identical to SB, except in that you didn't have to use your mouse to click off cards that would otherwise waste your loaded RR (and you were no longer punished for holding a card --for up to 30s-- if I recall that part correctly, as I'm pretty sure that's why they split them in the first place).

Well, that and, if you really needed an emergency heal or the DPS in your party were truly, truly awful, you could then just sac a card for a spare oGCD heal or a new oGCD direct attack. And Spread's CD was made less obnoxious. And you got Sleeve Draw.

SB AST was just... better/smoother/more fleshed out HW AST.

Quote:

---

I can defo agree with the difficulties of RR though, you're absolutely right that old cards without RR would be overly simplistic and IMO spending GCDs to single target buff the group for a burst window probably isn't going to feel all that great. The old cards were great not so much because of the cards themselves, but because of how not only Spread and RR worked, but also the interactions with time extensions and other AST buffs such as Shroud and Regens.

---

I never really felt like the "synergies" there were anything more than a reward for pacing that obliged an AoE Balance (or Arrow, at worst) per CelOpp, since anything else was a waste of a mass-duration-extension.

I'd have preferred that Expand doubled the potency and duration, both, of the given card, before splitting it among self and all allies, with CelOpp then extending the Card effects by a portion of their granted duration. Else, it ends up being just one more thing imbalancing the whole setup towards AoE damage buffs, since mitigation tends to complete its use too soon and 10s more to 8 people will be worth so much more than to 1 person.

Quote:

---

That does make me think though, what about the idea of having Seals grant a targetable 'totem' that we can place and AoE cards off? I'd much rather get that than a minuscule buff tbh.

---

I'm not perfectly sure what you mean by this.

But, what from what I can imagine... Wouldn't that just be a CD that we save our cards for to burn as many charges we have on its CD, and --by being damage, which is wasted on none (instead of MP, mitigation, etc., which are wasted on all but 1 or 2 people each)--- further favor just plain damage?

At that point you may as well again just have a Divination accepting 1 to 3 built gauge-thingies from which you get AoE effects based on Cards used earlier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

HW was identical to SB, except in that you didn't have to use your mouse to click off cards that would otherwise waste your loaded RR

---

Was it Shadowbringers that split Draw and Play into 2 separate keys? I could be misremembering the timeline!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I never really felt like the "synergies" there were anything more than a reward for pacing that obliged an AoE Balance (or Arrow, at worst) per CelOpp, since anything else was a waste of a mass-duration-extension.

---

Getting extra ticks out of Shroud and multiple sources of regen as well as a spread balance was a huge pay off in fights like A6S and A12S. I guess it's fair to say it diminished in importance as AST's power gradually went up through HW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm not perfectly sure what you mean by this.

---

Remember using the fairy to spread adlo if you couldn't use yourself as the spread target and the warrior wasn't convenient? Basically that.

It's not perfect, but I'd take something like that over a dull as dishwater self only 5% buff anyday.

Coming up with novel ideas that tick both the 'Is actually worth using' and 'isn't just more damage' boxes is tough!