How many 1-button enjoyers are there?

Out of curiosity, since even poking on Aether I'm hearing people enjoy healing at high-end, yet on the other side I hear people hate their class design when there is nothing to heal.

Those two ideas can coexist, as healing when its hectic, in more engaging content (since your kit is bloated with a ton of strong healing atm), is a very different situation than slower or less hectic content where it isnt needed (leaving you with very few options now that your bloated healing kit is useless)

As-is i think the healing kits are strong and redundant enough to float another two/three expansions without changing, while there is absolutely nothing to spend downtime on right now (since sch lost its dot plate-spinning, and ast lost all card interaction/planning and buff modulation whatsoever)

Define high end?

Savage prog is generally the best time to be a healer, outside of the occasional stinker (The likes of E8S), it's generally a good time regardless of team.

IMHO actual high end teams (Aka those that will spreadsheet out a healing plan) quickly become monotonous once you're on farm unless you're specifically into that and get more enjoyment from chasing logs as opposed to the actual healing itself.

Personally I've not really found Ultimates enjoyable to heal at all once the novelty wore off. Spreadsheeting isn't optional anymore. It's a test of your ability to execute a plan precisely and consistently.

Healing Savage with a more casual group or PF can be more enjoyable if you can tolerate the suffering though. Unlike a hardcore group or Ultimate there's a little room to react, carry and actually feel like you're making a difference.

IMHO where the wheels really fall off XIV's healing is when you've performed at a Savage/Ultimate level and then step back down to casual content. It makes you realise just how sparse, dead and lifeless the role actually is.

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

Those two ideas can coexist, as healing when its hectic, in more engaging content (since your kit is bloated with a ton of strong healing atm), is a very different situation than slower or less hectic content where it isnt needed (leaving you with very few options now that your bloated healing kit is useless)

As-is i think the healing kits are strong and redundant enough to float another two/three expansions without changing, while there is absolutely nothing to spend downtime on right now (since sch lost its dot plate-spinning, and ast lost all card interaction/planning and buff modulation whatsoever)

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All of the reason because people can never be happy and whine about everything , remember stormblood ast? Imo the best ast ever that requires very strategic play of the cards + managing combust 1 and 2 when se didnt bunch it into one? Tiny Tim and Jimmy and everyone whine that ast was too hard and did too much or entitled raiders wanted only(balance card) hence se like you know what lets just dumb it down to a waste of time.

I'm pretty indifferent to it when you consider that the only apparent alternative left is strict rotations and budgeting cooldowns to prep for burst windows. If I wanted to play a job with even more responsibilities in that direction, I have a bunch to choose from.

Now if they give us designs involving heal-nuke interaction, or MP management, or teamplay buffs that require gamestate knowledge, or anything that's a departure from where all DPS kits are currently heading, I'd take a keen interest.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Out of curiosity, since even poking on Aether I'm hearing people enjoy healing at high-end, yet on the other side I hear people hate their class design when there is nothing to heal.

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Different people.

It's like how there were tons of people saying they hated Eureka and Bozja when they were here, and there are now tons of people hating that we don't have them. They're not the same people.

Tons of people enjoy healing right now, even high-end, and even when it's not hectic/prog/people are dying all the time. While there's this overall attempt by people who don't like it to suggest/imply/hyperbolically overstate their position and insist that no one likes it, that's true of almost nothing in life. There are always some people who like even the most hated things. And there are things far more universally hated.

There's also a third group of people, those who don't exactly LIKE it, but don't like damage dealing and are worried it would be worse if changed (since change would likely mean "more damage actions/rotation", which they'd find less fun), so they support the current situation since they'd like the alternative less.

And then there's the group of people that don't care and are fine either way, who are also content and/or happy with right now since they're happy regardless.

.

But yeah, a lot of people like it.

I honestly like it.

Except AST. I hate AST. I hate oGCD ultra-power-weaving-carpel-tunnel nonsense. But I like WHM, SCH, and SGE right now.

My opinion of the 1 button idea is that it initially feels good but ultimately ends up hollow

It feels good to get to the point where you understand why oGCD’s are so powerful and you can juggle your oGCD’s with your damage spells and you start having 100% uptime on fights, you feel powerful and you feel skilled

But then after being at that point for a little bit you kinda realise that that is sort of it for healers, there is nowhere to go from there and that’s really when it starts to feel hollow

The only one time I heard somebody within my social circle that ‘compliments’ 1 button rotation is from this one WHM player that recently got into Ultimates and got their TEA & DSR clears. They said because it lets them focus on mechanics more compared to other jobs (or non WHM healer) who has that deeper depth of nuance to play effectively.

They never extend the same sentiment to any easier content however, so that’s up in the air.

There are other instances where I’m hearing these positives of a 1 button spam from other players. However in spirit, they are rarely 'because 1 button spam is fun’. It’s almost always ‘because I don’t need to focus while dpsing’ or ‘I can focus on mechanic’.

Sounds familiar?

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

entitled raiders wanted only(balance card)

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Hiya, entitled raider healer main from Entropy here (Hardcore FC with many world firsts).

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This. I used to use Bole on the Warrior in A12S as a means for them to tank their final large add safely in Deliverance whilst I solo healed at that stage. I don't think I ever remember a clear where I didn't open with Balance and then get a Bole in my pocket in time for those two adds.

I completely get why SE went with the new card system. It's undeniably more consistent and they've actually got a chance of balancing this setup unlike the old one. It just feels so stale in use to me though, the button bloat and APM requirements around Sleeve draw just put me right off it.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but in fights with high uptime and especially either with no ballad or if I was having to raise. I find myself running out of MP if I'm doing a good job of keeping the Malefics going. Seiryu was a good example where on many occasion I'd throw an Ewer on myself if it was going to align with my extended shroud. Doing that was borderline essential in pugs if I still wanted to aim for decent DPS output.

Bole? Meh, it was a fundamental part of my strategy in A12s (The latter part of the add phase) to the point where I'd actually save it for one of the tanks. I've never really found anywhere else where it was as impactful though.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

There's more to life than chasing Balance cards! Got a big multi mob pull coming up and you've just pulled a Bole? Consider throwing it on the tank to allow yourself a few more Gravity casts. Getting constant spears? Whilst it's the black sheep of cards, it's a dps gain for bards and worth throwing their way if you're at a loss. BLMs and Warriors still appreciate Arrow cards it seems. (Not so sure about arrow on Mnk/Nin tho, my static melees would be out of TP too quick).

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I'll tell you what the actual culprit of the balance meta was: It was SE needlessly changing Balance (And bole) to 20%, case in point, notice my shift in opinion between above circa 2019 and below which was just before patch 3.4:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

.....personally I've never really seen or heard of bole getting use in Alex savage tho. ..... I really am sorry if you feel that spear is useful, have a scan over fflogs, it is by far the least used card.....

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AST was 'fine' by 3.2-3.3, it just needed adjustments to get Noct to be competitive with SCH ( https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post3857974 ) and people to finally get over how much of a dumpster fire it was previously in 3.0.

Instead SE pulled the pin and wildly overtuned balance. Even Bole was a bonafide DPS gain in the right situation. 20% was absolute madness. It's no wonder people stuck to it like moths around a lamp.

I actually enjoy the current AST :)

- Yes the mayority of the content ingame lacks damage.
But with the right amount of new players.. you can make the most dmg lacking fights feel alive.
Playing w random and new players is a must if you want be healer in (normal)casual content.
Because they will give you heal content :P

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'll tell you what the actual culprit of the balance meta was: It was SE needlessly changing Balance (And bole) to 20%, case in point, notice my shift in opinion between above circa 2019 and below which was just before patch 3.4:



AST was 'fine' by 3.2-3.3, it just needed adjustments to get Noct to be competitive with SCH ( https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post3857974 ) and people to finally get over how much of a dumpster fire it was previously in 3.0.

Instead SE pulled the pin and wildly overtuned balance. Even Bole was a bonafide DPS gain in the right situation. 20% was absolute madness. It's no wonder people stuck to it like moths around a lamp.

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God that 20% buff was such a disgusting bribe lmaooooo absolute madness x-x

Healers don't need 1, 2, 3 they need more procs, dot's more nuance in gameplay with stuff like whm having long cast times again and astro having interesting cards

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Healers don't need 1, 2, 3 they need more procs, dot's more nuance in gameplay with stuff like whm having long cast times again and astro having interesting cards

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You posted that in another thread already. In the case of AST, while there could be some AST that agree with that, first of all you'd have to explain what "having interesting cards" even means. If it means a variety of types of buffs (MP, crit, etc, skill speed, spell speed, damage)- then- no thanks - as a number of people have already pointed out there are some potential disadvantages to that approach. That also does not help AST in any way in soloing content. I could go on, but the point is that a simple " interesting cards" isn't sufficient.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

You posted that in another thread already. In the case of AST, while there could be some AST that agree with that, first of all you'd have to explain what "having interesting cards" even means. If it means a variety of types of buffs (MP, crit, etc, skill speed, spell speed, damage)- then- no thanks - as a number of people have already pointed out there are some potential disadvantages to that approach. That also does not help AST in any way in soloing content. I could go on, but the point is that a simple " interesting cards" isn't sufficient.

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Ast cards shouldn't *just* be flat damage numbers depending on range or melee jobs.

I can see two approaches to "cards" one would be to give out Crit, Skill/spell and damage (not MP) which obviously skill/speed speed buffs don't work instead of how burst functions right now and it's currently really bad for certain jobs which can make them out of synch, so to a degree I'd be more apprehensive about that sort of "buff"

You could make cards based on Job categories (MDPS, Tanks, RDPS, CasterDPS, Healer, given that healer and tanks would likely have a stronger buff on that particular card for example), so that who you give the "right card" is a bit more strict then just handing it off to the highest phys or ranged dps. Maybe that's a bad idea for high end astro's I don't know I'm no expert on the job so forgive me lol.

To be fair I'm not a big astro player currently (or healer in general anymore), But I think the current card system could be slightly more interesting, I think I didn't state my point properly though "more interesting cards" is a weak argument on why astro shouldn't get much in terms of dps rotation, I simply think that the job is already busy enough in terms of how the card "mini game" works out to be at least to me astro doesn't really need any more damage buttons, I'd also like their barrier sect back personally as it being took out for the "barrier/pure" healer split is kind of just meh...

I likely should have explained that I don't even think current astro needs more damage buttons, as cards are already give astro somewhat of a unique feel (to me) and that I'd like to see more card diveristy, but maybe that just isn't realistic in current design

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Ast cards shouldn't *just* be flat damage numbers depending on range or melee jobs.

I can see two approaches to "cards" one would be to give out Crit, Skill/spell and damage (not MP) which obviously skill/speed speed buffs don't work instead of how burst functions right now and it's currently really bad for certain jobs which can make them out of synch, so to a degree I'd be more apprehensive about that sort of "buff"

You could make cards based on Job categories (MDPS, Tanks, RDPS, CasterDPS, Healer, given that healer and tanks would likely have a stronger buff on that particular card for example), so that who you give the "right card" is a bit more strict then just handing it off to the highest phys or ranged dps. Maybe that's a bad idea for high end astro's I don't know I'm no expert on the job so forgive me lol.

To be fair I'm not a big astro player currently (or healer in general anymore), But I think the current card system could be slightly more interesting, I think I didn't state my point properly though "more interesting cards" is a weak argument on why astro shouldn't get much in terms of dps rotation, I simply think that the job is already busy enough in terms of how the card "mini game" works out to be at least to me astro doesn't really need any more damage buttons, I'd also like their barrier sect back personally as it being took out for the "barrier/pure" healer split is kind of just meh...

I likely should have explained that I don't even think current astro needs more damage buttons, as cards are already give astro somewhat of a unique feel (to me) and that I'd like to see more card diveristy, but maybe that just isn't realistic in current design

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I like the idea of "cards based on Jobs":

(BLUE card) Tank: gives MID + 6%dmg
(GREEN card)Heal: give MP recovery + 6%dmg
(RED card) DPS: Crit 5% + 6% dmg ( goes for both melee/ranged)

Then we rework [Minor Arcana] into a card deck too!
they will be AOE cards, play likes it does now..but will give AOE buff instead of dps/heal.
(Our Lord card can be changed to a dps button , not to lose that dps option ).

Buff like:
inc healing taken by x%.
Reduce damage taken by x%
maybe also movement speed buff..


Something need to be done with Astrodyne.
it the sole reason why astro opener/burst is so busy-

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

I like the idea of "cards based on Jobs":

(BLUE card) Tank: gives MID + 6%dmg
(GREEN card)Heal: give MP recovery + 6%dmg
(RED card) DPS: Crit 5% + 6% dmg ( goes for both melee/ranged)

Then we rework [Minor Arcana] into a card deck too!
they will be AOE cards, play likes it does now..but will give AOE buff instead of dps/heal.
(Our Lord card can be changed to a dps button , not to lose that dps option ).

Buff like:
inc healing taken by x%.
Reduce damage taken by x%
maybe also movement speed buff..


Something need to be done with Astrodyne.
it the sole reason why astro opener/burst is so busy-

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I really agree with the Minor Arcana changes the current version just feels... frustrating? all you ever want is the damage card, I really like your changes of splitting it, That's the kind of astro changes that I'd want to see personally, I think movement speed would be nice to see on more jobs (obviously scholar's might feel a bit annoyed), But they could really get creative in what it can do other then just "useless heal and hope you get the dps card" (for the most part).

I'm really hoping SE gets the astro rework right, having Minor Arcana being more interesting might actually be the right way to go about keeping astros "support cards" intact without stepping on their dps buff cards.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Ast cards shouldn't *just* be flat damage numbers depending on range or melee jobs.

I can see two approaches to "cards" one would be to give out Crit, Skill/spell and damage (not MP) which obviously skill/speed speed buffs don't work instead of how burst functions right now and it's currently really bad for certain jobs which can make them out of synch, so to a degree I'd be more apprehensive about that sort of "buff"

You could make cards based on Job categories (MDPS, Tanks, RDPS, CasterDPS, Healer, given that healer and tanks would likely have a stronger buff on that particular card for example), so that who you give the "right card" is a bit more strict then just handing it off to the highest phys or ranged dps. Maybe that's a bad idea for high end astro's I don't know I'm no expert on the job so forgive me lol.

To be fair I'm not a big astro player currently (or healer in general anymore), But I think the current card system could be slightly more interesting, I think I didn't state my point properly though "more interesting cards" is a weak argument on why astro shouldn't get much in terms of dps rotation, I simply think that the job is already busy enough in terms of how the card "mini game" works out to be at least to me astro doesn't really need any more damage buttons, I'd also like their barrier sect back personally as it being took out for the "barrier/pure" healer split is kind of just meh...

I likely should have explained that I don't even think current astro needs more damage buttons, as cards are already give astro somewhat of a unique feel (to me) and that I'd like to see more card diveristy, but maybe that just isn't realistic in current design

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I could see where the job buffs (and astrodne) s Zeastria described below could be a good change.

That being said- as you admit yourself, you don't seem to recently play AST, or even any healer, so that you're looking at changes based upon recall, which seems rather difficult to evaluate. As a healer main I don't find that the card game mini-game is so challenging or busy that no additional damage buttons should be added. That would ignore that there are many different types of content as well as skill levels , and ASTs have a bloated number of healing skills but a lack of damage options for some content.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I could see where the job buffs (and astrodne) s Zeastria described below could be a good change.

That being said- as you admit yourself, you don't seem to recently play AST, or even any healer, so that you're looking at changes based upon recall, which seems rather difficult to evaluate. As a healer main I don't find that the card game mini-game is so challenging or busy that no additional damage buttons should be added. That would ignore that there are many different types of content as well as skill levels , and ASTs have a bloated number of healing skills but a lack of damage options for some content.

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It's not like i've not played healers (in general) I have every class at 90 just right now the current design doesn't appeal to me at least as in healers, I'd say I actually lean on playing astro rather then any other healer currently in expert rouls but yeah that's not to say I take it into EXT or savage, I've been generally dissatisfied with tank changes aswell (or not even in normal raids usually) I'd say I'm more of a support player at heart. It's not to say I don't want more for healers and think all my input would be straight up bad I think it's good to get perspective from players who maybe just don't like the direction healer has been took in EW. (SHB arguably even had better healer design imo), it's also good to hear from current healer players and all that. I really wish healer would appeal to me as it's something I love in other games

But yeah I think the idea that astro "could" have more damage buttons is up to you really, I think it's fine with its current damage options and card buffs, but at the end of the day i don't think adding any extra damage buttons would hurt it to a degree aslong as it's nothing too major, I don't think the "card mini game" is challenging but it can be sort of busy to me but that's most likely just because I'm not as used to it as you.

I agree that astro is bloated in terms of healing, I think healers in general have bloated heal skills imo, but astro likely has the most bloat from my perspective, personally I'd prefer if healers had to gcd heal a bit more so that choosing between damage and healing would be a certain skill expression on healer, resource management being harder ect, instead of just doing both at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

It's not like i've not played healers (in general) I have every class at 90 just right now the current design doesn't appeal to me at least as in healers, I'd say I actually lean on playing astro rather then any other healer currently in expert rouls but yeah that's not to say I take it into EXT or savage, I've been generally dissatisfied with tank changes aswell (or not even in normal raids usually) I'd say I'm more of a support player at heart. It's not to say I don't want more for healers and think all my input would be straight up bad I think it's good to get perspective from players who maybe just don't like the direction healer has been took in EW. (SHB arguably even had better healer design imo), it's also good to hear from current healer players and all that. I really wish healer would appeal to me as it's something I love in other games

But yeah I think the idea that astro "could" have more damage buttons is up to you really, I think it's fine with its current damage options and card buffs, but at the end of the day i don't think adding any extra damage buttons would hurt it to a degree aslong as it's nothing too major, I don't think the "card mini game" is challenging but it can be sort of busy to me but that's most likely just because I'm not as used to it as you.

I agree that astro is bloated in terms of healing, I think healers in general have bloated heal skills imo, but astro likely has the most bloat from my perspective, personally I'd prefer if healers had to gcd heal a bit more so that choosing between damage and healing would be a certain skill expression on healer, resource management being harder ect, instead of just doing both at the same time.

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Well, you shouldn't knock yourself, personally I find you have some very interesting feedback. I would want to know even if you disagreed with me ;), however it happens that i agree on a number of points - such as the card minigame being more busy work in some aspects (not surprising, it's been redone ), as well as what i would see as the number of heals relative to various encounter designs.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I can see two approaches to "cards" one would be to give out Crit, Skill/spell and damage (not MP) which obviously skill/speed speed buffs don't work instead of how burst functions right now and it's currently really bad for certain jobs which can make them out of synch, so to a degree I'd be more apprehensive about that sort of "buff"

You could make cards based on Job categories (MDPS, Tanks, RDPS, CasterDPS, Healer, given that healer and tanks would likely have a stronger buff on that particular card for example), so that who you give the "right card" is a bit more strict then just handing it off to the highest phys or ranged dps. Maybe that's a bad idea for high end astro's I don't know I'm no expert on the job so forgive me lol.

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There's not really enough ways to do the first option that would allow for it to work well, I think. Plus, Crit/DHit scaling causes issues constantly re: balancing expected outputs

However, I do agree with the second part, making it based on job role rather than this 'melee/ranged' split we currently have. It doesn't feel thematic like this, why is Bole, the protective one, a ranged card? Why is Arrow, the thing you fire from a bow, a melee one? So, a while back I wrote this thread basically echoing the sentiment. I would like to see the Minor and Major Arcana cards actually be properly linked. Why does Lord of Crowns deal damage, and Lady heal, when they're both the same suit, and also the same suit as the Spire (which is now flat damage, but used to be TP restore????)

Combust would probably have to go if all of the Minor Arcana changes I listed in that thread got in, but hey, I'm not entirely sure how many people actually 'like' Combust. I feel like it's kinda just... there. It's not exactly interesting, is it

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

You posted that in another thread already. In the case of AST, while there could be some AST that agree with that, first of all you'd have to explain what "having interesting cards" even means. If it means a variety of types of buffs (MP, crit, etc, skill speed, spell speed, damage)- then- no thanks - as a number of people have already pointed out there are some potential disadvantages to that approach. That also does not help AST in any way in soloing content. I could go on, but the point is that a simple " interesting cards" isn't sufficient.

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I'm all for it. I couldn't care less if someone's abilities drift or their shiny parse is subjected to RNG. The current balance is also balancing the fun out most types of content. I agree that more needs to be done to make healing more fun in solo content, though.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I'm all for it. I couldn't care less if someone's abilities drift or their shiny parse is subjected to RNG. The current balance is also balancing the fun out most types of content. I agree that more needs to be done to make healing more fun in solo content, though.

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Sure, I understand your point of view. As I didn't play AST when it first came out ( I was on my SCH), I have to put myself in their shoes, so as to speak, to understand how disappointed some people felt when Royal Road was removed. However I really hope SQ does consider the feedback from those people for DT changes for AST.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Sure, I understand your point of view. As I didn't play AST when it first came out ( I was on my SCH), I have to put myself in their shoes, so as to speak, to understand how disappointed some people felt when Royal Road was removed. However I really hope SQ does consider the feedback from those people for DT changes for AST.

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To be fair, I wouldn't mind a new system that's a compromise in a way.But it sure isn't the current one. lol At least not for me. *Some* balance obviously needs to happen but not as strict as it is now.

I started AST during late HW and absolutely loved it. What's left now is too shallow for me. Drawing cards is more like going through the motions, honestly. I'd prefer healing 'cause healer (duh) but if SE can't think of something I'll take some DPS if I have to. Not like I mainly deeps (with one button) anyway. But it's so bad, man. :( I want to heal and buff. ;_;

TBH i'm just healing until a dps job comes along that feels good to me. So i'll probably be healing forever.

Healing is fun when there's something to heal. But it always eventually boils down into spamming your one button.