REALLY random idea: A deep dungeon, but all Jobs have their PvP kits.

Discuss.

That's the thread.

Deep Dungeons try to "do things different", but after three iterations, it's pretty much HoH with different Summon stones, one or two different statuses, and a different Frog trap. And I don't mean that to disparage it - I enjoy Deep Dungeons a lot - but I think it's become a smidge stale.

(some) people like the PvP kits and wish the PvE ones were more like it. So why not give that a PvE test run? And DDs are a somewhat enclosed "laboratory conditions/test environment" that can have some slightly unusual mechanics.

I know Criterion does that a bit, but it's more a less-open Eureka/Bozja/Exploration Zone content in dungeon form.

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I'm not saying this is a good idea, it was just a straight up spur of the moment thought when I was reading some people discussing PvP vs PvE abilities in another thread. But the more I think about it, the more I think it might be cool for something like 7.2/3's Deep Dungeon (if we get one). It would certainly keep it different than other things, and I would LOVE to slap those obnoxious Mimics with some Afflatus Purgation, personally... :)

I like the idea. I am a big fan of the deep dungeons but I am getting a bit burned out on the formula. The pvp changes this expansion were good and I enjoy the speed and flow of them. I am not sure it would work in deep dungeon but I wouldn't be against giving it a go.

What if it was PvP during deep dungeon? HAHA that could be interesting. They would have to turn chat off though. People would be fumin.

Interesting idea. I barely play PvP and I'm only really familiar with the White Mage and Dancer kits, but having access to Purify for any status would be nice. Although, PvP kits seem to have more focus on crowd control skills, and I would imagine they would make bosses immune to a lot of that. Could be a conflict there.

It would also give PvE players a way to practice and get used to the PvP kit in a non-competitive environment, maybe then encourange more people to play PvP once they're comfortable with it.

Don't really see this as a good idea.

Every job would have way less of a kit to play with, and on that small of a scale it would get boring really fast. Yes, pvp bars do group up 1-2-3 combos into one button(which is nice QoL), but even without that the difference between pvp and non-pvp bars would be huge.

You'd also have to make changes to those kits to make them function in a non-pvp environment most likely.

You know, I actually would be pretty interested to see this scenario play out. I can't speak as to whether or not people would particularly take to it, but I for one do like how abilities are handled in PvP. Only downside is that some jobs are a wee bit sparse in that area, so they may have to incorporate a handful of new abilities to make it fly.

I would not mind seeing a PVP only DD, and I also wouldn't mind seeing a BLU only DD, as I think the DD formula got stale as soon as the second one (HOH) came out. It's so copypaste I have no idea how people get excited for a new one. The only issue with a PVP DD would be the job kits are so condensed into a few key abilities, that certain jobs would just become far and away 'the best' for solo runs. I know that eg WAR MCH RDM are 'better' than other jobs in POTD solos, for example, but I mean like... Compare how bursty (a critical factor in choosing your POTD soloing class) a NIN or MNK can be, compared to something like a SCH.

If anything, since Blizz 'borrowed' the idea of Deep Dungeons to do Torghast in SL, I would like to see SE 'borrow' Torghast to make a new Deep Dungeon. That is, your Aetherpool weapon level does not increase for this one, instead silver chests give you passive buffs that have wacky effects on your class. From 'you take 10% less damage from Physical attacks' to 'Your Blasting Zone has a 5s shorter CD' to 'Your Phlegma now applies Phlegmatic to the enemy, causing them to take damage based on how far they move', jst go completely wacky with the effects because balance does not matter in there, it's side content. Then, instead of enemies only getting stronger because more HP (kinda bland), have each 10 floors completed also assign a debuff you have to work around. 'You take 3% of your max HP in damage for each 5 yalms you move', 'Enemies now explode on death, causing both you and nearby enemies to take 20% of your respective max HP as damage', 'Enemies now enrage at low health, doubling their autoattack rate but reducing their accuracy' etc. And then because of these effects, you could have a chance for the 'upgrade chest' to instead offer you 'you don't get an upgrade this time, but can instead remove one debuff', so you can choose to either overpower the debuffs with your own buffs, or remove the really horrible ones if they're too hard to work around. Make it a real 'roguelite' instead of using Pomanders for the 4th time

The reason Torghast was a failure was not because it sucked. Far from it, it was actually really fun. The reason it failed was because Blizzard made it mandatory, by attaching the resource to make your legendary to it, and making it give half the weekly cap per run, forcing two runs a week. Left as an optional standalone thing, or better yet, allowing people to enter it at lower levels (so it could be used for alt levelling) would have seen it be much more favorably received

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If anything, since Blizz 'borrowed' the idea of Deep Dungeons to do Torghst in SL, I would like to see SE 'borrow' Torghast to make a new Deep Dungeon. That is, your Aetherpool weapon level does not increase for this one, instead silver chests give you passive buffs that have wacky effects on your class. From 'you take 10% less damage from Physical attacks' to 'Your Blasting Zone has a 5s shorter CD' to 'Your Phlegma now applies Phlegmatic to the enemy, causing them to take damage based on how far they move', jst go completely wacky with the effects because balance does not matter in there, it's side content. Then, instead of enemies only getting stronger because more HP (kinda bland), have each 10 floors completed also assign a debuff you have to work around. 'You take 3% of your max HP in damage for each 5 yalms you move', 'Enemies now explode on death, causing both you and nearby enemies to take 20% of your respective max HP as damage', 'Enemies now enrage at low health, doubling their autoattack rate but reducing their accuracy' etc. And then because of these effects, you could have a chance for the 'upgrade chest' to instead offer you 'you don't get an upgrade this time, but can instead remove one debuff', so you can choose to either overpower the debuffs with your own buffs, or remove the really horrible ones if they're too hard to work around. Make it a real 'roguelite' instead of using Pomanders for the 4th time

The reason Torghast was a failure was not because it sucked. Far from it, it was actually really fun. The reason it failed was because Blizzard made it mandatory, by attaching the resource to make your legendary to it, and making it give half the weekly cap per run, forcing two runs a week. Left as an optional standalone thing, or better yet, allowing people to enter it at lower levels (so it could be used for alt levelling) would have seen it be much more favorably received

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Agreed, I would like to see them take the torghast approach. It was very fun to do, but it being mandatory killed it for me.

Sounds interesting and maybe worth exploring. A Dynasty Warriors mode could be neat.

Actual Renathras W, never thought it'd happen that I'd agree with you ever not gonna lie, but for once I approve

Count me in

It'd be a neat experiment for sure and I'd love to see SE try it.

The pvp kits are specific designed for pvp... how would something like ninja/Sam lb work in there when it's a literal one shot.. or in cringes case a multistack shot. A kit overview might sound cool... but people who hate pvp would only rage at yoshiP. And most ppl hate pvp

Lukewarm take: People who hate pvp hate it simply because it’s pvp (or alternatively because FFXIV’s netcode and tickrate make it feel like a sloppy mess).

Hot take: Use the Squadron/Trust AI for opponents and have more of an emphasis on group combat vs 1 at a time ‘bosses’. PvP kits cease being a problem then

I'm not sure SGE or SCH would work well with their pvp kit. There's also the whole issue of needing to stun or interrupt certain mobs. Not saying this would be a bad idea. Just would probably need a few tweaks.

This would be kinda fun I think. It'd be cool if the enemies were people/phantoms with jobs and they use their respective PvP actions too.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I'm not sure SGE or SCH would work well with their pvp kit. There's also the whole issue of needing to stun or interrupt certain mobs. Not saying this would be a bad idea. Just would probably need a few tweaks.

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I was going to say the same. I think there are more pros than cons, but there are some things that just don't work in a PvE environment that would need basically a deep dungeon alternative. Playing Sage in PVP, Mesotes is either potentially game-breaking, or highly underwhelming depending on if you place it under a boss or not.

Could use it as a testing ground to see what pvp jobs they have that works fine in pve.

Interesting idea.

A deep dungeon where you literally play PvP style matchs against AI teams of monsters and other explorers to make your way down the floors could be a cool new spin on the idea.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If anything, since Blizz 'borrowed' the idea of Deep Dungeons to do Torghast in SL, I would like to see SE 'borrow' Torghast to make a new Deep Dungeon.

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I forgot where I posted this, but I was saying something similar but with Honkai Star Rail's Simulated Universe. In that game mode, you start by picking a path to aim for based on some of the Aeons in the lore of the game. Some path names include "The Destruction" "The Elation" and "The Abundance." After every battle (because Honkai Star Rail is a turn-based RPG) you get to pick one of 3 random Blessings that are offered to you. Blessings are aligned with the different paths and offer unique, game-changing effects based on the mechanics of that path. Ideally, you want to collect Blessings that match the path you chose, because that will unlock the ability to summon the Aeon of that path in battle and further enhance them, think similarly to HoH's Primal Magicite, only it's not an instant-win, just a powerful move.

If we use "The Destruction" as an example, that path revolves around your party being at low HP. Some of the examples of Blessings include:

- "When characters are hit or consume their own HP, regenerate 4 Energy." (Energy in this case would be equivalent to limit break charge)
- "For every 1% of the difference between character's Max HP and current HP, their ATK increases by 0.8%."
- "If a character's HP is lower than 35% when being attacked or losing HP, restores their HP by 12% of their Max HP."
- "When player characters are hit, DMG taken by the characters is equally distributed among all allies."
- "When characters are hit or consume their own HP, they gain 4 stack(s) of Fighting Spirit. When the turn ends, the character loses 4 stack(s) of Fighting Spirit."
Fighting Spirit Effect: "Buff brought by certain Destruction Blessings. For each stack, increases ATK by 3% and DEF by 3%. Stacks up to 35 times."

There are different rarities of Blessings with some being stronger than others. These Blessings also have an upgraded version where they are stronger or have new effects, and there's a currency you collect in each run-through of the Simulated Universe that you can spend on various things including upgrading your Blessings. And I think things like this would probably compliment a PVP kit more than our very rigid PVE kits.

If it's still the standard DD formula, there'd be a lot of potential left in the muck, but this seems like it'd be a fun experiment if we take the opportunities it presents.

Imagine adding to that rooms that aren't all the same squares, and are instead laid out more like a set encounter, with more mobs having lower TTK and all mobs having interesting enough distances so that you have at least as much variety among them as we would in PvP and... yeah... sounds pretty great at that point.

Would also need some tweaks to certain abilities/LBs regardless, of course.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Discuss.

That's the thread.

Deep Dungeons try to "do things different", but after three iterations, it's pretty much HoH with different Summon stones, one or two different statuses, and a different Frog trap. And I don't mean that to disparage it - I enjoy Deep Dungeons a lot - but I think it's become a smidge stale.

(some) people like the PvP kits and wish the PvE ones were more like it. So why not give that a PvE test run? And DDs are a somewhat enclosed "laboratory conditions/test environment" that can have some slightly unusual mechanics.

I know Criterion does that a bit, but it's more a less-open Eureka/Bozja/Exploration Zone content in dungeon form.

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I'm not saying this is a good idea, it was just a straight up spur of the moment thought when I was reading some people discussing PvP vs PvE abilities in another thread. But the more I think about it, the more I think it might be cool for something like 7.2/3's Deep Dungeon (if we get one). It would certainly keep it different than other things, and I would LOVE to slap those obnoxious Mimics with some Afflatus Purgation, personally... :)

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I think its an idea worth merit. In a game I use to play DAoC they had a pvp dungeon. It was always fun to go in and try to maintain control of it. Maybe its something they can look at for the future.

Cool concept, but there would be a few issues to translate DD over to PvP. Namely, jobs that rely on silence and various CC to supplement their gameplay. PvP doesn't rely so much on auto attacks rather than consistently casting skills/weaponskills. Mobs in PvE naturally just move to the target with aggro with all disregard for terrain and have very little interrupts. If mobs rely only on skills to attack, status effects like silence was done similarly in PvP, and elevation of terrain can help provide a geographical advantage for ranged jobs and such for mobs to take more time to reach the player, then gameplay could be very interesting and fix all those aforementioned issues. As far as NIN LB goes, it's probably more difficult to balance this against bosses due to the nature of how NIN LB works -- but that's assuming there's only 1 boss has a gigantic big HP bar and they use the same old formula that makes DD really monotonous and stale.

Now, what if the boss was split into multiple mobs with various amounts of HP and they're all considered part of a boss's HP bar? Something akin to Shinyru's tail and suffers damage to the boss when it is defeated, except the tail can fight, move, and act independently. Suddenly, NIN LB wouldn't be as problematic imo. Stuff like SAM LB won't be able to delete bosses with huge HP bars, but they can do a lot of damage to them due to the nature of how SAM LB scales. The same applies to DRG LB, where it gains more value by the nature of being an AoE LB.

WAR LB nullifies guard and prevents status inflictions, so designing enemies that could guard and apply status effects would probably go a long way into making this mode more dynamic and fun too.

Healing will be very interesting considering everyone will have access to both Recuperation and Elixir. It will encourage party play and allowing others to create some distance to recover their HP and MP. I think I would enjoy that kind of gameplay.

Pomanders and the method to queue into this kind of DD would probably have to be reworked to a certain extent though. PvP toolkits do not have "raise", rather players auto-revive after 10s. PvP toolkits rely more on recovery and pacing / attrition, so stuff like vulnerability up wouldn't work very well. They would have to either rework the pomanders, the phoenix down system, or allow some form of way to raise more effectively.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

WAR LB nullifies guard and prevents status inflictions, so designing enemies that could guard and apply status effects would probably go a long way into making this mode more dynamic and fun too.

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This. If you give a PvP kit without the PvP mechanics (being usable by the mobs), too... that's most of the value left on the floor.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

Actual Renathras W, never thought it'd happen that I'd agree with you ever not gonna lie, but for once I approve

Count me in

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Right? That's actually a great idea.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This. If you give a PvP kit without the PvP mechanics (being usable by the mobs), too... that's most of the value left on the floor.

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I mean, they used to make mobs that would stun, silence, sleep, or otherwise debuff the absolute crap out of you. I'm not sure why they stopped, but I'd love to see them brought back. Preferably more intelligently than in prior design, by which I mean the mobs utilizing their abilities at the best possible times to screw players over. A good example might be a boss or particularly powerful trash mob deciding to land a tankbuster then immediately stunning the healer so the tank is unable to be healed before the next auto - or interrupting, should the healer be hard casting a heal instead of using something instant. Could even start throwing in stuff like slowing or stunning random party members during major mechanics to leave them at risk of imminent unavoidable death (or at least a ton of damage) if the healer doesn't yoink them out of harm's way.

Of course, the above would have to be adjusted in the event someone went in alone. Otherwise they'd probably just get massacred outright.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I mean, they used to make mobs that would stun, silence, sleep, or otherwise debuff the absolute crap out of you. I'm not sure why they stopped, but I'd love to see them brought back. Preferably more intelligently than in prior design, by which I mean the mobs utilizing their abilities at the best possible times to screw players over.

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That's not exactly the kind of "intelligence" I'd most look forward to among mobs, as the result often means less player agency and more chore-like rather than risk-reward-centric gameplay. But I definitely do want more complex fights. I just feel that "complex" and/or "rewarding" fights come down to the actions they permit among players and depth of consideration they reward, rather than anything directly to do with the efficacy of the AI itself.

If a mob has an interrupt, for instance, I want that to be a constraint/point of available optimization for party coordination and positioning, rather than just something that prevents the use of hard casts in any tight situation (need to heal now or tank dies) [just reduces available complexity in a span of moments] and/or something you make sure to bait out onto CD before doing anything risky [chore-ish, though not awful if neither too long nor too short a CD].

Make it so you can body-block mobs and said interrupt is a melee, though, and you can easily have those benefits and more, with none of the situational losses to available complexity. You could maybe even bait a hard-cast heal to peel a mob towards you (the healer) before using an instant-cast spell or ability instead anyways, or have a Paladin feint a Clemency to take the interrupt early when he's not about to Req anyways. Etc., etc.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's not exactly the kind of "intelligence" I'd most look forward to among mobs, as the result often means less player agency and more chore-like rather than risk-reward-centric gameplay. But I definitely do want more complex fights. I just feel that "complex" and/or "rewarding" fights come down to the actions they permit among players and depth of consideration they reward, rather than anything directly to do with the efficacy of the AI itself.

If a mob has an interrupt, for instance, I want that to be a constraint/point of available optimization for party coordination and positioning, rather than just something that prevents the use of hard casts in any tight situation (need to heal now or tank dies) [just reduces available complexity in a span of moments] and/or something you make sure to bait out onto CD before doing anything risky [chore-ish, though not awful if neither too long nor too short a CD].

Make it so you can body-block mobs and said interrupt is a melee, though, and you can easily have those benefits and more, with none of the situational losses to available complexity. You could maybe even bait a hard-cast heal to peel a mob towards you (the healer) before using an instant-cast spell or ability instead anyways, or have a Paladin feint a Clemency to take the interrupt early when he's not about to Req anyways. Etc., etc.

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This is a fair take, and I do for the most part agree with it. I was suggesting the implementation of brutal AI under the auspices of what's been suggested in the thread. I.e. PvP kits and all that, so you aren't totally screwed if a mob tries to lock you down. Outside of that, I'd definitely have a preference for what you're espousing here. There is little fun in fighting something that can just tell you no whenever it wants while you have little actual ability to do anything about it, whereas something that has great complexity which can at times be turned against it offers plenty of opportunities for optimization and thinking outside the box. Unfortunately, thinking outside the box is something FFXIV in its present state doesn't really encourage or reward.

On the flip side, I do feel it would be appropriate to design some mechanics that involve bosses actively trying to trick players. A good example might be a telegraphed faux tankbuster to bait cooldowns or maybe trick a healer into pre-casting something big. These would of course need proper tells to give people a chance, and they're not something we would want to see implemented often. One could even go a step further by making the bait ability possible to interrupt, perhaps with the added effect of inflicting a short-lived debuff (damage taken up, maybe? or damage dealt down) to the enemy if players read the situation and react properly.

I hate shatter because hitting the pvp skills on a dummy for 20 minutes is kind of boring so I doubt I would like this too, pvp kits only really feel fun against other players... to me anyway.

To be fair, there are some complications - the OHKO abilities would have to be modified (to be fair, I hate those in PvP, too, but...that's beside the point). I was more thinking how people like things like Seraph Strike, Deployment Tactics, etc being short CDs and a lot of the "bundled abilities" where a button does what 2-4 buttons in PvE do.

It would be a neat experiment since it would be side content, so no one would need to engage with it, but it would give a test run for what PvP abilities do and don't work in PvE, and if the kits, or parts of them, are fun to have in PvE. Worst case scenario, we have a DD, content increasingly fewer people are playing anyway, that's a flop...but so was Orthos, so the worst case isn't really all that bad if you think about it. Best case scenario, they see what parts of the PvP kits can be use in PvE and may nudge the PvE game into more interesting directions with more active abilities and shorter CDs instead of the 2 min meta. I'm not really seeing a lot of downsides. Not to mention the DD formula has gotten pretty stale, so something to really shake it up is what people are already calling for.

But it really was just a random thought with no serious work or thought into it that seemed kinda coo and was just like "Huh...that doesn't sound so bad, actually. Wonder what other people think?"

How about deep dungeon but it's turn base combat ? :3

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Originally Posted by Syln

How about deep dungeon but it's turn base combat ? :3

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Same story. Would be a fun variation... if given appropriate context.

There would have to be turn-by-turn gambles available, not just rote execution, else our GCDs already basically provide that and more.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Same story. Would be a fun variation... if given appropriate context.

There would have to be turn-by-turn gambles available, not just rote execution, else our GCDs already basically provide that and more.

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Rotation in a turn base game ? It would literally defeat the purpose of such game mode so of course it is not an option :D

Just a basic gameplay with Attack, magic/skill (depending on your job), item, defend and ofc limit break, with visual inspired from recent turn based game like Persona 5 or Honkai star rail, never going to happen since for some reason they seem to think that turn base rpg is some kind of lesser gameplay experience but hey, one can dream !

Another reason why it won't be a thing is that it would ask them to invest more resources in the game and take some risks which is very unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Syln

Rotation in a turn base game ? It would literally defeat the purpose of such game mode so of course it is not an option :D

Just a basic gameplay with Attack, magic/skill (depending on your job), item, defend and ofc limit break, with visual inspired from recent turn based game like Persona 5 or Honkai star rail, never going to happen since for some reason they seem to think that turn base rpg is some kind of lesser gameplay experience but hey, one can dream !

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Without a context by which you have risk and reward and the timing of those uses of Attack, Abilities (Spells and Special Attacks), Guard, and Potion actually matters... yes, it will be a lesser gameplay experience.

Again, it...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Would be a fun variation... if given appropriate context.

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But, as with PvP abilities, that context needs to be thoroughly considered.

If it's no more than watching your HP bars to use occasional Potions or healing spells and reacting to telegraphs (e.g., two-turn Abilities) to hit Guard... then its play will probably mostly be restricted to those who, say, find Malefic spam itself compelling.