please bring back hard mode/optional dungeons

Ever since Yoshi P decided to phase out the extra dungeons in shadowbringers, the content as a whole took a giant dip for the worst. While you didn't feel it happening in endwalker, it is definitely felt in endwalker where the content is only super casual or hardcore. While dungeons in endwalker/shadowbringers were just used as set pieces to move the story forward, I felt that the dungeons still doesn't break away from traditional final fantasy xiv dungeon formula. Maybe I feel its the lack of creativity that prevented future dungeons from being produced, but JUST having dungeons being the set pieces in story feels like its a bad idea waiting to happen, especially where we have situations like troia where we still explore the dungeons post dungeon run...which feels like it defeats the purpose of that dungeons existence. In many shapes and form it feels like the optional dungeons from shadowbringers/endwalker are more engaging and entertaining than the counterparts that are supposed to be in the main story (twinning/smileton). The one thing I've missed with the optional dungeons was the world building it brought into the world, it build upon the world way more than any content that was given to us. I wish in some shape and form it would come back since we need more content for the game instead of just playing it safe and just giving us content we think we like. Also I want to elaborate, I do not want any content removed so this will return...however its not fair for us to feel like we have to choose one thing or the other...we need more options in the game. Please reconsider bringing back optional dungeons, thank you for listening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingskye

Ever since Yoshi P decided to phase out the extra dungeons in shadowbringers, the content as a whole took a giant dip for the worst. While you didn't feel it happening in endwalker, it is definitely felt in endwalker where the content is only super casual or hardcore. While dungeons in endwalker/shadowbringers were just used as set pieces to move the story forward, I felt that the dungeons still doesn't break away from traditional final fantasy xiv dungeon formula. Maybe I feel its the lack of creativity that prevented future dungeons from being produced, but JUST having dungeons being the set pieces in story feels like its a bad idea waiting to happen, especially where we have situations like troia where we still explore the dungeons post dungeon run...which feels like it defeats the purpose of that dungeons existence. In many shapes and form it feels like the optional dungeons from shadowbringers/endwalker are more engaging and entertaining than the counterparts that are supposed to be in the main story (twinning/smileton). The one thing I've missed with the optional dungeons was the world building it brought into the world, it build upon the world way more than any content that was given to us. I wish in some shape and form it would come back since we need more content for the game instead of just playing it safe and just giving us content we think we like. Also I want to elaborate, I do not want any content removed so this will return...however its not fair for us to feel like we have to choose one thing or the other...we need more options in the game. Please reconsider bringing back optional dungeons, thank you for listening.

---

Minor correction in the second statement, I think you meant to say it wasn't felt much in Shadowbringers, not Endwalker. (Thank you Bozja for giving me reasons to enjoy Shadowbringers for something other than it's story.)

As far as I'm aware, Criterion is supposed to be that optional hard dungeon content that (successfully, mind) does do some pretty decent world-building, but the point that's been beaten to death by now is that it is incredibly unrewarding, so no one outside of a smaller populus of friend groups actually go and do it until they get their mount to sell it or w/e and dip.

I'd like hard mode dungeons too, personally. I don't think they'll go that path again, but we'll just need to wait and see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingskye

Ever since Yoshi P decided to phase out the extra dungeons in shadowbringers, the content as a whole took a giant dip for the worst. While you didn't feel it happening in endwalker, it is definitely felt in endwalker where the content is only super casual or hardcore. While dungeons in endwalker/shadowbringers were just used as set pieces to move the story forward, I felt that the dungeons still doesn't break away from traditional final fantasy xiv dungeon formula. Maybe I feel its the lack of creativity that prevented future dungeons from being produced, but JUST having dungeons being the set pieces in story feels like its a bad idea waiting to happen, especially where we have situations like troia where we still explore the dungeons post dungeon run...which feels like it defeats the purpose of that dungeons existence. In many shapes and form it feels like the optional dungeons from shadowbringers/endwalker are more engaging and entertaining than the counterparts that are supposed to be in the main story (twinning/smileton). The one thing I've missed with the optional dungeons was the world building it brought into the world, it build upon the world way more than any content that was given to us. I wish in some shape and form it would come back since we need more content for the game instead of just playing it safe and just giving us content we think we like. Also I want to elaborate, I do not want any content removed so this will return...however its not fair for us to feel like we have to choose one thing or the other...we need more options in the game. Please reconsider bringing back optional dungeons, thank you for listening.

---

iam all for option for hard mod and easy mod , yes i know there are a lot of player that like a challenge , but i dont see the rewards should differ from easy and hard mod, since hard mod can be frustrating for some, if your bandwidth doesn't go in your favour. i wouldn't want any content to deter some one to quit.

They should also just abandon the name 'Hard Mode' for those dungeons that revisit old places, it simply causes confusion with some people thinking that that is actually a HARD difficulty, lol.

'Another' (in line with V&Cs) or something like that would be more fitting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zairava

I'd like hard mode dungeons too, personally. I don't think they'll go that path again, but we'll just need to wait and see.

---

There never were any "hard mode" dungeons , they were just a little higher ilvl.
They are just optional Dungeons from the MSQ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zairava

Minor correction in the second statement, I think you meant to say it wasn't felt much in Shadowbringers, not Endwalker. (Thank you Bozja for giving me reasons to enjoy Shadowbringers for something other than it's story.)

As far as I'm aware, Criterion is supposed to be that optional hard dungeon content that (successfully, mind) does do some pretty decent world-building, but the point that's been beaten to death by now is that it is incredibly unrewarding, so no one outside of a smaller populus of friend groups actually go and do it until they get their mount to sell it or w/e and dip.

I'd like hard mode dungeons too, personally. I don't think they'll go that path again, but we'll just need to wait and see.

---

oh whoops, thanks for that lol and since shadowbringers still had enough content to where the lull wasn't felt as hard as endwalker...i wonder if they can just rework the variant dungeons as optional dungeons and then leave criterion/savage as is since criterion change the format differently

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raikai

They should also just abandon the name 'Hard Mode' for those dungeons that revisit old places, it simply causes confusion with some people thinking that that is actually a HARD difficulty, lol.

'Another' (in line with V&Cs) or something like that would be more fitting.

---

omg that is a good idea, but i wonder how another twinning for example would sound like, lol

The problem is the development resource limit. The extra dungeons (not to mention a potential new Deep Dungeon) were lost in Shadowbringers so they could put the resources into creating the CEs in Bozja along with CLL, DR and Dalriada.

I suspect they were also getting complaints from some players about them reusing existing dungeon assets instead of creating a completely new dungeon to experience. I've watched that tug-of-war between players in multiple MMOs over the years where one group likes to revisit the original dungeon in a new way while others would rather get a completely new dungeon.

More overall content is always welcome but it's dependent on SE giving the development team more money for more staff so they're able to create more. Or we'd have to wait longer between expansions/patches so what staff they do have would have longer to create the additional content. Considering how many players are already complaining that the patch cycle has been extended from 18 to 20-21 weeks, I don't think the latter would be a popular choice.

Yo, the dungeon revisits almost invariably owned. I think the only ones that were steps down were Pharos and Arboretum.

I don't even mind the reused areas because they're normally differentiated enough visually, and I think they gave a good testing ground for battle designers.

After Euphrosyne and a bunch of the Pandemonium encounters I think they could use dungeons to give some of the newer designers practice... (Referencing a JP article where YoshiP states that the new 24 mans were entirely within the hands of a newer battle design and story writing team)

Maybe it would be less costly to produce 'hard mode' dungeons again because the environments wouldn't have to be wholly new like with the separate Variant dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Post

Maybe it would be less costly to produce 'hard mode' dungeons again because the environments wouldn't have to be wholly new like with the separate Variant dungeons.

---

It's definitely less costly and less time consuming to reuse an existing dungeon than to make a new one from scratch. That's why it's strange they stopped doing them unless most of the feedback they were receiving was negative because of the reuse.

Personally, I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other. If reusing existing assets means more overall content, that seems like a good thing as long as we're still getting some completely new content along with it (which can then also be reused at a later date).

I suspect Variant/Criterion dungeons are the evolution of these optional dungeons, so I wouldn't expect to see them return.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

I suspect Variant/Criterion dungeons are the evolution of these optional dungeons, so I wouldn't expect to see them return.

---

Neither Variant which is soloable by design nor Criterion that's hard enough to make some Savage floors blush is a solution to the gaping chasm left in the middle difficulty range by the discontinuation of group-required optional dungeons. And neither contributes to making Expert Roulettes exciting again.

I think expert dungeons have obviously long held that dubious daily roulette title because, especially early on in the game's life, there weren't many easy ways to cap weekly tomes.

After a decade, though, we have tons of ways, not even just looking at all the additional roulettes that now exist. I was hoping that because of this that they'd feel more free to make high end dungeons more challenging, or at least equivalent to your leveling dungeons in terms of difficulty.

It feels bizarre still that trash in Bardum's and Holminister hit significantly harder than max level trash.

Optional dungeons in Dawntrail would be a nice additional avenue to flesh out the lore of the new part of the world we're exploring, which is a detail I do miss from their inclusions in the past.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Post

I think expert dungeons have obviously long held that dubious daily roulette title because, especially early on in the game's life, there weren't many easy ways to cap weekly tomes.

After a decade, though, we have tons of ways, not even just looking at all the additional roulettes that now exist. I was hoping that because of this that they'd feel more free to make high end dungeons more challenging, or at least equivalent to your leveling dungeons in terms of difficulty.

It feels bizarre still that trash in Bardum's and Holminister hit significantly harder than max level trash.

---

you say that but in many ways we always had the optional tools to cap our tomes weekly, just needed a community behind the hunting community which didnt start until late stormblood because back then every server had a warlord behind the hunts...now as much as i dont want to get rid of content like criterion...BUT since savage requires u to be max gear to clear it, i would say get rid of savage and throw your eggs into criterion and still give us the lore expanding dungeons

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

The problem is the development resource limit. The extra dungeons (not to mention a potential new Deep Dungeon) were lost in Shadowbringers so they could put the resources into creating the CEs in Bozja along with CLL, DR and Dalriada.

I suspect they were also getting complaints from some players about them reusing existing dungeon assets instead of creating a completely new dungeon to experience. I've watched that tug-of-war between players in multiple MMOs over the years where one group likes to revisit the original dungeon in a new way while others would rather get a completely new dungeon.

More overall content is always welcome but it's dependent on SE giving the development team more money for more staff so they're able to create more. Or we'd have to wait longer between expansions/patches so what staff they do have would have longer to create the additional content. Considering how many players are already complaining that the patch cycle has been extended from 18 to 20-21 weeks, I don't think the latter would be a popular choice.

---

the problem is we dont have a bozja to crowd around in, so they wasting resources on tome only relics and a savage criterion mode where u need to be bis to clear the fight...just for furniture and achievements. i get square have to make hard decisions on content but looking at the content they gave us, its too safe and way too bland. blue mage...10 levels, 20 spells, and 1 carnival...lol the extra time also on the dungeon side...lets face it endwalker dungeons are worse versions of shadowbringers dungeons...and i sound shadowbringers dungeons to be lame outside of the set pieces...back in arr, hw, and sb...there was hazards, themes, and beautiful set pieces

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingskye

the problem is we dont have a bozja to crowd around in, so they wasting resources on tome only relics and a savage criterion mode where u need to be bis to clear the fight...just for furniture and achievements. i get square have to make hard decisions on content but looking at the content they gave us, its too safe and way too bland. blue mage...10 levels, 20 spells, and 1 carnival...lol the extra time also on the dungeon side...lets face it endwalker dungeons are worse versions of shadowbringers dungeons...and i sound shadowbringers dungeons to be lame outside of the set pieces...back in arr, hw, and sb...there was hazards, themes, and beautiful set pieces

---

Just because you don't like the content doesn't mean it didn't take time to create that content. You might want to dismiss the dungeons as a carbon copy of ShB dungeons but they most definitely were not.

It's fair to say "I don't like what was made". It is not fair to say they didn't make any content or they spent very little time creating it.

If you judge the entire game based on whether or not you get a new Bozja, then you'll be happy to know that they got the message that a lot of players missed having one this expansion and they're trying to work one into their development schedule for Dawntrail.

I want my 2nd dungeon back...