[MONK] My issues with the MONK, especially compared to other jobs.

I started the game 2 years ago as a pugilist/monk and that job has been my main up until P7s.

But compared to the other melees, Monk not only feels clunky, it looks clunky too.

My issues in ascending order:

The animations:
- Standart combo: After every hit in the standard combo, there is a small but noticable delay until you can use the next skill (mainly after "Twin Snakes", "True Strike" and "Snap Punch")

- "Dragon Kick" has the opposite problem, there the animation is so long, that it ALWAYS gets clipped by the next skill, resulting in an ugly disruption of the visual flow.

My suggestions: Either overhaul the animations, so there is a bit more "action" like with "Bootshine" and "Demolish" or reduce the GCD of all skills by, like, 0.2 seconds,
which would result in a faster playstyle to better differentiate the MONK from the other melees.

The gameplay:
- Why does "Perfect Balance" throw me out of my Opo/Raptor/Coeurl-form?
Every time after using it, I have to "restart" my combo, starting with "Bootshine" etc.

Why can I not continue the combo from the skill I last used?
For example, I press "Perfect balance" and use "Dragonkick", "Bootshine" and then "Dragonkick", PB ends and I get into Raptor-Form so I can use the second Comboskill again (OR just give "Form Shift" after PB ends).
This would hugely improve the combo flow.
(EDIT: you dont have BLitz or Form Shift in low-lvl dungeons)

- "Phantom Rush".
When you play normally, you have to first do PB twice (collecting a Lunar and Solar Nadi respectively) and then wait until your third PB, so you can finally use "Phantom Rush", which is the highest DMG skill we have.
The problem is, with that opener, PR will ALWAYS be ready OUTSIDE the usual 2min raid buffs window, meaning, you'd have to "waste" a PB to do a "double solar opener" to align PR into everyone elses buff window.
This feels awful.



I liked the MONK-aesthetic, but it is just not fun compared to other melee-jobs.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

The gameplay:
- Why does "Perfect Balance" throw me out of my Opo/Raptor/Coeurl-form?
Every time after using it, I have to "restart" my combo, starting with "Bootshine" etc.

Why can I not continue the combo from the skill I last used?
For example, I press "Perfect balance" and use "Dragonkick", "Bootshine" and then "Dragonkick", PB ends and I get into Raptor-Form so I can use the second Comboskill again (OR just give "Form Shift" after PB ends).
This would hugely improve the combo flow.

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you can, though? that's what the Formless Fist buff after using a Blitz is for. you're generally never holding onto a Blitz after using PB if that is the scenario you're referring to.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

you can, though? that's what the Formless Fist buff after using a Blitz is for. you're generally never holding onto a Blitz after using PB if that is the scenario you're referring to.

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You dont have Blitz in low level, forgot to mention.
And you dont get the Formless Buff after PB.

I'm never sure what you guys mean by clunky in this forum, everyone says everything is clunky in some way on these forums, but I will give you this; MNK has IMHO terrible hand to hand animations. I don't care that they're unrealistic, although a lot could be improved in terms of delivering impact. I mean they are straight up ugly, nonsensical, too slow, or the key poses are questionable.

Here are some examples that irk me:

Shadow of the Destroyer
https://i.imgur.com/W8UNSsa.png

Bad form, low angle on shadow of the destroyer. Aside from the fact that the monk does NOT commit on building up momentum and delivering a sick 720 kick at the end or something along those lines, he also lands with his back turned, one extra swirl for no reason.

Four Point Fury
https://i.imgur.com/APyPkle.png
Its follow up. Everything with four point fury is bad IMO. It's extremely slow, there's like a pause to the handstand, and then once again MNK gets up back turned to enemy. Why? Copying capoeira's wheel kicks or spinning on the back would've been way cooler.

Form Shift
https://i.imgur.com/AOwBVTG.png
Form shift, flailing arms around. Looks so bad.

Perfect Balance
https://i.imgur.com/MrzyanG.png
Perfect balance. Do I need to say anything? Bro.

Rising Phoenix
https://i.imgur.com/yaC8c8W.png
Rising Phoenix is obviously based on a Wushu butterfly kick, except the legs are once again low. Bad form, weak key pose, and another mandatory land and super weak twirl.

I think leaning into the fantasy of being a blitzing powerhouse is for the best, but man, when an uppercut lacks impact, RIP. I think their best animations are phatom rush, enlightenment, and demolish.

p.s: I dunno how to warp text with images so, links it is. I could probably post a million other things but I think this gets the point across.

So, my 2 cents on monk as well. Riddle of Wind is an atrociously designed ability. It is 750 potency over 15 seconds by...auto attacking sooner. Its damage is fine, but its animation is horrifically underwhelming.

Also, Disciplined Fist should be locked while doing your Perfect Balance combo, all the way up to the finisher. The 'natural' rotation of pressing PB on cooldown has the player drop disciplined fist and it feels rather cumbersome to design a mechanic like this, regardless of the player's ability to deal with it or not.

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Originally Posted by Tetsujin

I'm never sure what you guys mean by clunky in this forum, everyone says everything is clunky in some way on these forums, but I will give you this; MNK has IMHO terrible hand to hand animations. I don't care that they're unrealistic, although a lot could be improved in terms of delivering impact. I mean they are straight up ugly, nonsensical, too slow, or the key poses are questionable.

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Typically, clunky means rough, unfinished, jarring, or otherwise 'not smooth.' There are multiple use cases for it, including but not limited to:

• Animation locks that prevent smooth execution of abilities.
• Network lag that prevents smooth execution of abilities.
• Too many abilities that feel like you need to use them simultaneously and you lack the action economy to smoothly deal with them.
• Animations that are rough, interrupted, or so long they are cut all the time.
• The class regularly putting you into a compromising position as part of its normal, natural rotation.

Monk kind of deals with all of these except animation locks. However, the biggest offender of E.G. animation clipping has to be bloodletter on Bard. That ability is a literal GCD in length and never, ever, fully casts. It's a giant red + that is constantly interrupted and is insanely noticeable.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

You dont have Blitz in low level, forgot to mention.
And you dont get the Formless Buff after PB.

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In this scenario you'd want to generally choose Dragon Kick after PB at the level 50ish range. I don't think this is even the most pressing issue on the job anyway, some random quirks specific to the level 50 range is frankly insubstantial.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Also, Disciplined Fist should be locked while doing your Perfect Balance combo, all the way up to the finisher. The 'natural' rotation of pressing PB on cooldown has the player drop disciplined fist and it feels rather cumbersome to design a mechanic like this, regardless of the player's ability to deal with it or not.

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What...? PB isn't intended to be pressed on cooldown, nor do you even drop Twin Snakes for any significant amount of time, unless you're playing at like... zero skillspeed.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Also, Disciplined Fist should be locked while doing your Perfect Balance combo, all the way up to the finisher. The 'natural' rotation of pressing PB on cooldown has the player drop disciplined fist and it feels rather cumbersome to design a mechanic like this, regardless of the player's ability to deal with it or not.

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No, it doesn't. There is no need to drop Disciplined Fist when playing optimally unless you're somehow avoiding even the slightest scrap of SkS.

If you're dropping DF, it's almost certainly because you're never allowing yourself to invert your Lunar/Solar order. You can and should be adapting it, especially if you're restricting yourself to extremely slow GCDs. Even then, it doesn't force PB delays, just the tiniest bit of extra thinking.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

Why can I not continue the combo from the skill I last used?

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Fair question, and with a simple but disappointing answer: They tied the formlessness to Blitz instead of to the consumption of the third charge of PB itself with Blitz just not consuming that buff, causing a small loss to available nuance in endgame but a major oversight to the pre-Blitz experience.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

They tied the formlessness to Blitz instead of to the consumption of the third charge of PB itself with Blitz just not consuming that buff, causing a small loss to available nuance in endgame but a major oversight to the pre-Blitz experience.

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I don't agree. Figuring out how to do steady damage by using PBs to farm crit Bootshines as much as possible without dropping Twin Snakes or overwriting Demolish when you must restart with DK afterward is one of the charms of low-level monk and is, frankly, way more interesting to me than the post-59 'you're a burst job like everyone else now, press PB to prep for the stupid burst window'.

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Originally Posted by vetch

I don't agree. Figuring out how to do steady damage by using PBs to farm crit Bootshines as much as possible without dropping Twin Snakes or overwriting Demolish when you must restart with DK afterward is one of the charms of low-level monk and is, frankly, way more interesting to me than the post-59 'you're a burst job like everyone else now, press PB to prep for the stupid burst window'.

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...That has nothing to do with what I wrote.

The problem with early PB is it literally costs you a form every time you use it because it removes what forms you had going in and doesn't grant Formless at its end, meaning that your only useful options after each PB are... Dragon Kick or Arm of the Destroyer.

This problem happens because they tied that Formless buff to Blitz instead of to having consumed all your stacks of Perfect Balance. I.e., you need Blitz for Perfect Balance to even function fully/correctly.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

In this scenario you'd want to generally choose Dragon Kick after PB at the level 50ish range. I don't think this is even the most pressing issue on the job anyway, some random quirks specific to the level 50 range is frankly insubstantial.



What...? PB isn't intended to be pressed on cooldown, nor do you even drop Twin Snakes for any significant amount of time, unless you're playing at like... zero skillspeed.

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So you're telling me that a new player, ignorant of the concept of BIS, is going to know this? The fact I, a non-monk main, have regularly noticed it with random gear is more than enough proof that it's enough of a problem to need addressing.

And yes, every ability in its natural rotation is used on cooldown. Even abilities with charges, as PB's charge is less a "This is for double bursting," and more a "This is to prevent drift." That's part of why it's called a 'natural' rotation and not an optimized one.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

And yes, every ability in its natural rotation is used on cooldown. Even abilities with charges, as PB's charge is less a "This is for double bursting," and more a "This is to prevent drift." That's part of why it's called a 'natural' rotation and not an optimized one.

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No, this is precisely wrong. Multi-charge skills are there for double-bursting. That is their intent. And if you used them as intended you'd find that PB flows just fine even at low SkS. At higher speed, you can exploit them even further but have to alternate Lunar-Solar-Phantom with Solar-Lunar-Phantom, but that's it; you do not drop DF when using Perfect Balance.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

So you're telling me that a new player, ignorant of the concept of BIS, is going to know this? The fact I, a non-monk main, have regularly noticed it with random gear is more than enough proof that it's enough of a problem to need addressing.

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I don't think a new player is going to care, actually, considering that this is the first time I've ever seen someone complaining about something as insignificant as briefly dropping Twin Snakes.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

And yes, every ability in its natural rotation is used on cooldown. Even abilities with charges, as PB's charge is less a "This is for double bursting," and more a "This is to prevent drift." That's part of why it's called a 'natural' rotation and not an optimized one.

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it... quite literally is for double bursting. they didn't just make it 40s cooldown with 2 charges for shits and giggles, its following the same design as every other job in this game.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

So you're telling me that a new player, ignorant of the concept of BIS, is going to know this? The fact I, a non-monk main, have regularly noticed it with random gear is more than enough proof that it's enough of a problem to need addressing.

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I'm not going to get into nitty gritty details on Monk here, but I'm going to comment on this specifically.

Why would, and should new players care? Not everything needs to be simplified down so far that optimizations get neutralized because someone who has hundreds of hours to even get to the endgame can not worry about it, they aren't even thinking about it. Old content is so inherently easy these days despite being harder comparatively to newer content it's not even remotely worth ruining the enjoyment out of players dedicated to the job at the endgame.

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Originally Posted by Tetsujin

I'm never sure what you guys mean by clunky in this forum, everyone says everything is clunky in some way on these forums.[/SIZE]

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Play sam, which is very similar in resource generation but 100x better designed and streamlined to get the combo's done and the resources generated, then play mnk again, it's super clunky design wise when compared to sam and is by far the job in most need of remake, not drg like they plan.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

Play sam, which is very similar in resource generation but 100x better designed and streamlined to get the combo's done and the resources generated, then play mnk again, it's super clunky design wise when compared to sam and is by far the job in most need of remake, not drg like they plan.

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subjectivity and all that, but...

even as someone who doesn't play monk that much outside of leveling it, it is by far their best rework given their track record, and I'd really rather they worked on and refined the current one rather than try to do it again.. If anything Chakra needs work because of how quickly it generates later on.

I do agree on Dragoon not really "needing" a rework though...I know they said that it's supposed to be more of a nin-style 5.1 mini-rework, but this is the same people that removed Kaiten and butchered DRK so...I'm far more concerned rather than excited here.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

Play sam, which is very similar in resource generation but 100x better designed and streamlined to get the combo's done and the resources generated, then play mnk again, it's super clunky design wise when compared to sam and is by far the job in most need of remake, not drg like they plan.

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???

Monk is at least as smoothly designed as SAM.

And neither MNK nor DRG needs a full rework. At most, DRG could afford to spend a separate button on entering Life of the Dragon or find a way not to force drift at ping onto Geirskogul from each LotD cycle. It's otherwise fine.

MNK, meanwhile, was the rare miracle of a job making through a rework net-unscathed. I do not want to play Russian Roulette with the job yet again. It has a tiny bit of unnecessary bloat and should move the post-PB formless to PB itself instead of Blitz. But that's it. It's much too good to throw into the thresher again and hope for the ~25% chance that it isn't made worse.


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Daily Cap Edit:

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

Monk rotation isn't anywhere close to being as smooth as sam's.

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Okay, to be fair, by "smooth" I mean "fluid/flowing" and "absent of awkward encumbrances so long as one makes use of what optimizations are pretty immediately intuitive"... rather the likes of "smooth-brain".

MNK is already plenty "smooth" (fluid, intuitive). It does not need to become gutless, unchecked, shallowed out, etc.
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Originally Posted by Llynethil

You just said it, chakra has rng attached to it, that makes it clunkier than kenki.

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That's not clunky. Every Chakra increase outside of Brotherhood comes from a weaponskill crit, meaning each increase is also indicated right from your floating combat text and is entirely predictable in its timing. It even has a sound effect telling you when it's readied.

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You don't need forms for samurai, that makes sam smoother and less clunky.

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Combos are no "smoother" than Forms. It's just 1/2-3/4-5/6 vs. 1-2-3/1-2-4/1-5. Forms just have fewer outright dead/trap keys in any average given GCD.

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Compare all of those to what buttons mnk has to go through for their st or aoe rotations to set crap up

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MNK ST: Takes 1-3 GCDs to get "set up", depending on how you define "set up": Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, and Demolish.
SAM ST: Takes 2-3 GCDs to get "set up" if using Meikyo, 6 GCDs if not -- Fugetsu, Fuka, and Higanbana.

MNK AoE: 1 GCD. Four Point Fury. Done.
SAM AoE: 2 GCDs with Meikyo, 4 GCDs otherwise.

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also sam gets dmg and speed from its combos, no extra buttons needed unlike mnk which again is less clunky.

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How is literally starting at max speed somehow more "clunky" than needing a buff just to reach the second lowest speed tier (MNK, NIN, and even Paeon-4 Bard outpace it)? Monk doesn't use additional / non-rotational buttons to get its buffs, and is even free to open with that buff without consuming CDs.

SAM needs to put up 2 buffs before reaching its normal state (damage and haste). MNK needs only the one (damage).

None of your warrants here seem to be making any sense.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

???

Monk is at least as smoothly designed as SAM.

And neither MNK nor DRG needs a full rework. At most, DRG could afford to spend a separate button on entering Life of the Dragon or find a way not to force drift at ping onto Geirskogul from each LotD cycle. It's otherwise fine.

MNK, meanwhile, was the rare miracle of a job making through a rework net-unscathed. I do not want to play Russian Roulette with the job yet again. It has a tiny bit of unnecessary bloat and should move the post-PB formless to PB itself instead of Blitz. But that's it. It's much too good to throw into the thresher again and hope for the ~25% chance that it isn't made worse.

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Not at all.

Sam just goes 123 14 156 to get stickers, each sticker is easy to get and easy to apply, kenki moves are just auto generated alongside it and you use them when available/applicable.

Monk rotation isn't anywhere close to being as smooth as sam's, hell they even removed kaiten (rip) to make it smoother, but more boring.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

Not at all.

Sam just goes 123 14 156 to get stickers, each sticker is easy to get and easy to apply, kenki moves are just auto generated alongside it and you use them when available/applicable.

Monk rotation isn't anywhere close to being as smooth as sam's, hell they even removed kaiten (rip) to make it smoother, but more boring.

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What is difficult/not smooth about monks GCD rotation? You also mentioned clunky, what about it is clunky?

Chakra is also generated via your GCDs, with a bit of RNG on top, so I don't know what you are on about (unless it is the Brotherhood window, but Monk has so few oGCDs, it doesn't get in the way).

What is it about Monk's rotation specifically that you do not like? Don't just say, look, Samurai does this therefore Monk is bad, that says nothing. Talk about Monk specifically and reference other jobs to make your point.

You just said it, chakra has rng attached to it, that makes it clunkier than kenki.

You don't need forms for samurai, that makes sam smoother and less clunky.

Your stickercombos all start from the same ability, that makes it smoother and less clunky.

Stickers are easier at a glance to see how many you have and what your stickermove is gonna do making it smoother.

Aoe is literally 1-2 1-3 sticker, use kenki moves when possible, again a smoother rotation.

Compare all of those to what buttons mnk has to go through for their st or aoe rotations to set crap up, also sam gets dmg and speed from its combos, no extra buttons needed unlike mnk which again is less clunky.

Aside the weeb point, there's a reason sam is played waayyyyy more than mnk, and that's its design.

Yea there are always personal preferences, but a better designed class will always be picked up by a lot more people.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

You just said it, chakra has rng attached to it, that makes it clunkier than kenki.

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Why is it RNG makes it clunky?

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You don't need forms for samurai, that makes sam smoother and less clunky.

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Why does the addition of forms to dictate your combos make Monk clunky/less smooth?

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Your stickercombos all start from the same ability, that makes it smoother and less clunky.

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Monk doesn't have sticker combos, so no idea what you are trying to say here. Unless you mean the PB window, which again works differently, so, what is it about it you do not like?

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Stickers are easier at a glance to see how many you have and what your stickermove is gonna do making it smoother.

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Monk doesn't have stickers, unless you are on about the beast chakra, which is dictated by the next 3 weapon skills, which you should already know which one you are after before you get to it, so you don't even need to pay attention to them anyway.

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Aoe is literally 1-2 1-3 sticker, use kenki moves when possible, again a smoother rotation.

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Monk is literaly 1-2-3, with it changing slightly for PB and even then, only for Elixir Field/Phantom rush.

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Compare all of those to what buttons mnk has to go through for their st or aoe rotations to set crap up, also sam gets dmg and speed from its combos, no extra buttons needed unlike mnk which again is less clunky.

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Which is all setup automatically by doing the rotation.

However, you done the same thing in this post I told you not to do. I asked WHY you felt Monk was clunky and to use and to reference other jobs. All you have done, again, is say, Sam does this therefore Monk is clunky. That doesn't help anyone at all.

I thought it was funny someone replied to "I'm never sure what you guys mean by clunky" by using the word a whole bunch without defining what it means, but then it *kept happening.*

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Originally Posted by Zatoh

I thought it was funny someone replied to "I'm never sure what you guys mean by clunky" by using the word a whole bunch without defining what it means, but then it *kept happening.*

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Thus far, if we're going to go by the reasons given for MNK being "clunky"?

"Clunky" = "Takes less setup and has fewer dead weaponskill choices in any given GCD than SAM" and/or "Crit-dependent effects." Who knew?

/shrug

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

You just said it, chakra has rng attached to it, that makes it clunkier than kenki.

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It's more accurate to say that Chakra is more inflexible than any other job gauge rather than a vague term like clunky. It's not the inherent RNG aspect of it that makes it bad, it's that the job does nothing to accommodate for it being RNG unlike other skills of its nature like Pitch Perfect or Sabre Dance.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...That has nothing to do with what I wrote.

The problem with early PB is it literally costs you a form every time you use it because it removes what forms you had going in and doesn't grant Formless at its end, meaning that your only useful options after each PB are... Dragon Kick or Arm of the Destroyer.

This problem happens because they tied that Formless buff to Blitz instead of to having consumed all your stacks of Perfect Balance. I.e., you need Blitz for Perfect Balance to even function fully/correctly.

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It has everything to do with what you wrote.

Having to restart with DK after a PB combo -- having to figure on needing more GCDs before you can refresh Demolish and thus having to plan differently -- instead of getting Formless afterward and being able to re-enter your skill chain wherever your giddy heart desires, changes the flow in a more interesting way to me. I don't consider it a flaw.

I understood your position perfectly, I just think you're wrong.

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Originally Posted by vetch

It has everything to do with what you wrote.

Having to restart with DK after a PB combo -- having to figure on needing more GCDs before you can refresh Demolish and thus having to plan differently -- instead of getting Formless afterward and being able to re-enter your skill chain wherever your giddy heart desires, changes the flow in a more interesting way to me. I don't consider it a flaw.

I understood your position perfectly, I just think you're wrong.

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You honestly prefer having less choice, even though you have a greater ceiling of optimization and greater contextualize and viable GCD tiers without being forced to use Dragon Kick after each PB?

I could understand your position if the benefits were otherwise excessive rather than allowing for new and even tighter fits to aim for, but that's not the case. The ceiling, too, is lower from PB not granting Formless after its last stack.

I don't have anything to contribute to the topic at hand, other than wishing that people would discuss their gripes with MNK in a way that doesn't involve the dreaded 'C' word. That word tells us nothing, and there is no useful discussion to be had around a word that means wildly different things to different people.

Anyway, I just wanted to respond to this post that caught my eye:

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Originally Posted by vetch

I don't agree. Figuring out how to do steady damage by using PBs to farm crit Bootshines as much as possible without dropping Twin Snakes or overwriting Demolish when you must restart with DK afterward is one of the charms of low-level monk and is, frankly, way more interesting to me than the post-59 'you're a burst job like everyone else now, press PB to prep for the stupid burst window'.

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The easy solution to this is to use Perfect Balance on the next Opo-Opo GCD following both a natural Twin Snakes and Demolish refresh (so, Twin Snakes -> Demolish -> Opo-Opo & Perfect Balance -> 3x Opo-Opo -> Dragon Kick). Those natural refreshes will happen often enough that you will never overcap on Perfect Balance charges, and you will maximize your Bootshines while minimizing clipping & downtime on Twin Snakes and Demolish.

There it is, that's level 50 MNK fully optimised. There's not much to it, but it is good to think of MNK's rotation in terms of maximizing Bootshines and being efficient with timers, because MNK's Optimal Drift rotation at cap operates entirely on that principle. Which brings me to this...

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Originally Posted by vetch

It has everything to do with what you wrote.

Having to restart with DK after a PB combo -- having to figure on needing more GCDs before you can refresh Demolish and thus having to plan differently -- instead of getting Formless afterward and being able to re-enter your skill chain wherever your giddy heart desires, changes the flow in a more interesting way to me. I don't consider it a flaw.

I understood your position perfectly, I just think you're wrong.

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You will love MNK at 90, because optimal MNK gameplay demands that you spend every Formless Fist on an Opo-Opo GCD to get as many Bootshines as possible in a fight. And yes, you absolutely need to plan your timers to account for this fact.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You honestly prefer having less choice, even though you have a greater ceiling of optimization and greater contextualize and viable GCD tiers without being forced to use Dragon Kick after each PB?

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Yes. The level 50 constraint of 'must DK after PB' makes the solving more interesting, whereas the level 60+ constraint of 'forget that, just do whatever you want as long as you don't drift your cooldowns out of burst' makes it more neurotic instead.

I'm normally receptive to arguments about higher skill ceilings, but that consideration must come after whether the job's rotation is fun or not.

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Originally Posted by Silhart

The easy solution to this is to use Perfect Balance on the next Opo-Opo GCD following both a natural Twin Snakes and Demolish refresh (so, Twin Snakes -> Demolish -> Opo-Opo & Perfect Balance -> 3x Opo-Opo -> Dragon Kick). Those natural refreshes will happen often enough that you will never overcap on Perfect Balance charges, and you will maximize your Bootshines while minimizing clipping & downtime on Twin Snakes and Demolish.

There it is, that's level 50 MNK fully optimised.

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There's more than that to play with if you want it, though. Demolish lasts long enough that with high SkS, you can delay PB by a full combo and still refresh in time, so you can start a PB after Twin Snakes -> Snap Punch -> DK instead to accommodate mechanics or catch stray buffs. That's really fun.

Haste builds in general are fun and it's depressing that there's not more room for them at 90.

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You will love MNK at 90, because optimal MNK gameplay demands that you spend every Formless Fist on an Opo-Opo GCD to get as many Bootshines as possible in a fight. And yes, you absolutely need to plan your timers to account for this fact.

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Nah. I don't like FF14's take on bursting jobs in general and dislike monk's version in particular since it's too far from what the job was sold as. You remember when you were a lowly level 1 PGL and Hamon told you that the job was about 'many rapid small blows that end up doing as much damage as a flashier, slower job's big hits'? I want that.

I think it's bad game design that we're not allowed to have that anymore.

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Originally Posted by vetch

Yes. The level 50 constraint of 'must DK after PB' makes the solving more interesting, whereas the level 60+ constraint of 'forget that, just do whatever you want as long as you don't drift your cooldowns out of burst' makes it more neurotic instead.

I'm normally receptive to arguments about higher skill ceilings, but that consideration must come after whether the job's rotation is fun or not.

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But... after 60 you need to use an Opo-Opo GCD on every Formless Fist if you want to maximize damage. Unless you're doing some crazy spreadsheeting with 2-target fights, using Formless Fist to refresh timers is, more often than not, a pitfall and a sign of poor planning.

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Originally Posted by vetch

There's more than that to play with if you want it, though. Demolish lasts long enough that with high SkS, you can delay PB by a full combo and still refresh in time, so you can start a PB after Twin Snakes -> Snap Punch -> DK instead to accommodate mechanics or catch stray buffs. That's really fun.

Haste builds in general are fun and it's depressing that there's not more room for them at 90.

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I mean, I agree in that I love Haste builds and I am actually putting together a SKS set for my MNK at 90 because screw it, I've cleared the tier so why not.

But I am also wondering what kind of SKS you're getting at level 50, because even with Greased Lightning 4 and 1.94 GCD at level 90, there is no way you can enter a 3x Opo-Opo Perfect Balance after a Snap Punch without having downtime on Demolish. Genuinely curious, what kind of mechanics require you to enter on that window in the first place?

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Originally Posted by vetch

Nah. I don't like FF14's take on bursting jobs in general and dislike monk's version in particular since it's too far from what the job was sold as. You remember when you were a lowly level 1 PGL and Hamon told you that the job was about 'many rapid small blows that end up doing as much damage as a flashier, slower job's big hits'? I want that.

I think it's bad game design that we're not allowed to have that anymore.

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Hmm, what changes would you make to MNK to bring it closer to how you envision it? I do kinda agree, but I'm just not sure how level 50 MNK does any better of a job at delivering this experience.

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Originally Posted by vetch

Yes. The level 50 constraint of 'must DK after PB' makes the solving more interesting, whereas the level 60+ constraint of 'forget that, just do whatever you want as long as you don't drift your cooldowns out of burst' makes it more neurotic instead.

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But you don't "do whatever you want". You do what is optimal. Which is far more contextually involved when your progress isn't reset after each PB.

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Haste builds in general are fun and it's depressing that there's not more room for them at 90.

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There is room for them at 90. Sub ~1.9s GCDs, for instance, allow absurdly tight Twin Snakes and Demolish timings (minimal clip and/or absence), more diverse macrorotational alignments, and better Leaden Fist exploitation than the "BiS" 1.94 and 1.93 builds' more lockstep macrorotation. I play at 1.83-1.87 for the fun of it, but it actually fares just fine.

High SkS Monk is plenty viable, because the only things that don't scale with Skill Speed are Brotherhood's party Chakra generation and your opening Forbidden Chakra. Since you can have a higher portion of Bootshines/Leaden Fists at higher SkS due to less Twin/Demo waste and, more importantly, all Chakra generation outside of Brotherhood and your free set upon instancing in come from your GCDs, Monk scales better with SkS than any other job in the game, and better than it ever has before.

Your Monk is only level 69. Hit 90 and actually play around with these things so you know what you're talking about before insisting that cutting down the job's skill ceiling in that way is better for the job's complexity.

Also, having to take two GCDs after PB to reset Twin... is literally just Blitz + Twin anyways. You think 2 GCDs ahead with the forced DK... or you think 2 GCDs ahead with Blitz. The only thing you'd have to further think ahead for by forcing a non-Opo-opo Dragon Kick after each PB/Blitz is Demolish, and that'd only be by 1 of 3 GCDs. And for that you'd lose the ability to set up your Demolish and Twin Snakes to specifically get out precisely their full durations 3+ more times per raid cycle.

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Vetch, if you told me that SAM was better when it had only 30s duration on Fuka and Fugetsu (or would be better if it only applied 20s of duration at a time but both Jinpu/Shifu and Gekko/Kasha applied those buffs), I'd readily agree because the additional duration devalued existing optimizations without offering new ones (except perhaps to those absolutely minimizing Skill Speed). But here, not being forced to raw Dragon Kick after each PB doesn't just slightly increase the "accessibility" of that mechanic but also creates new, even more stringent/precise, optimizations that can result from it. It raises the ceiling by more than it "lowers" the floor.