AST proposal: An idea revisited

Just something Roe said in that big thread going on in General right now got me to thinking, while I've suggested it as an option before, I never made a proposal.

So Roe, this is to you, specifically. Here is what I think would have to happen for this to work. It's why I don't think it makes sense to be the one chosen, but it COULD work if the following changes were made:

1) Objectives:
a) A similar APM to current day WHM.
b) A similar complexity to current day WHM.
c) A similar rotation to current day WHM.
d) A similar healer kit to current day WHM.

I'm not even entirely sure how to do this, mind you, but for a first stab at it, I feel it'd be something like this...

2) Overall kit changes to accomplish this:

a) Cards moved to the GCD. Draw and Play are now GCD actions, not oGCDs. They likely would retain the system the have now in the sense of being "oops, all Balance", or a 1/2/3% damage/crit/DH like BRD songs are. They would, however, need to refund damage in some way. I've considered multiple options, from Draw damaging your active target (if enemy) to there being some kind of "damage Kardia" thing you slap on the boss, but honestly, the simplest solutions are sometimes the best, and the simplest I can think of is - Each time Draw OR Play (both do this) is used, they give some kind of stacking thing (Seals could work for this) which increases the damage of the next Malific by 100%. Stacks 4 times or something. This would effectively make using Cards and then Malific equivalent to using Solace/Rapture and then using Misery...probably with the same kind of optimization, but hey, works for WHM, so we'll go with it.

b) Delayed actions are now outright actions, like as not. So Earthly Star works like Assize. You use the ability and it blows up and does the heal and damage. The only exception would probably be Macrocosmos since WHM has Lilybell and it's effectively the same type of thing here. Horoscope would be converted to be more like Plenary. Or possibly outright removed - Collective might just be strictly better.

c) Either remove Minor Arcana or split it into a different category of buff. I've before suggested Minor Arcana be Bole (mitigation), Ewer (MP regen), probably Arrow (movement speed), and they could be AOEs like the PvP versions. The other three can be flavors of Balance/Speer/Spire that are either like now or all the same or like BRD (1% damage, 2% crit, 3% DH). Also would be GCD and work like the regular Draw/Play do.

d) Reduce the CD on Cards to something like 15 or 20 sec. Still stacks to 2. This allows much more frequent use of the cards to really lean into that feeling and gameplay than the current "stock 3 for burst, use 1 at the min mark in between" which is very meh. This would also make it more equivalent to Lilies, albeit needing to Draw AND Play. Of course, an alternative would be to remove Draw and just each time you Play, it cycles to (or randomly selects) the next card, but whatever.

e) Have Lightspeed also reduce recast by 0.5 sec or something. Basically some kind of way to shoehorn in a PoM-ish effect...though honestly I don't care either way on that. Alternatively, could make it work like Thin Air to only effect the next spell cast so that it's something of a Acceleration/poor-man's Swiftcast for movement. Though with the Play/Draw changes, they're also effective movement tools now.

f) Undraw removed, Redraw probably removed.

g) Astrodyne either removed outright or merged with Lightspeed or something.

h) Probably have Neutral Sect work like Emergency Tactics instead where it influences the next spell cast. Though honestly it staying as it is is probably fine, it's just WHM doesn't have anything like this to compare it to so...I guess question mark tentatively leave it alone for now.

i) Exaltation and Celestial Intersection are parallels to Aquaveil and Divine Benison, so they're probably fine as-is. Likewise, Macrocosmos is close enough to Lilybell we'll go with it for now.

j) Probably trim some abilities, though I'm not entirely sure what. Base Benefic upgrading to Benific II is a no-brainer at this point (same cast time, similar MP efficiency and cost), the stuff removed like Redraw and Undraw, and possibly some other stuff merged like Astrodyne with Light Speed or Divination, Celestial Opposition and Earthly Star (make CO into Assize and be done with it), and so on. AST with about 3-4 less buttons would put it in line with WHM.

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That would probably do the general job of making AST into something for the people that like current WHM.

The reason I never propose this is it would basically be completely reworking and replacing AST (again), alienating all the people that like AST as it is, and then changing all the other three Jobs, which means the people that like AST now would have to swap AND aren't guaranteed to find what they're looking for on the other Jobs anyway.

This is why I say making AST the simple one for the 4 Healers Model is the least desired outcome, though if we were to propose it, something like the above would be how it would need to be done.

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And the sad thing is, the AST rework will probably be designed to make it easier, yet still somehow miss the mark. SEE: Post-6.3 PLD that is easier yet somehow added a button to make PLD's bloat even worse. (Though the PLD change, like the SMN one, has likely been an overall success, both also alienated a lot of people...)

Still don't see why your "4 Healer Model" requires any of the healers be explicitly low-apm with simple and little decision-making (as opposed to just letting players get by without necessarily optimizing everything, while still having that room for further/excess carry potential for those who want it), but... this honestly makes AST look no worse a fit for that purpose than WHM. (Or likely SGE or SCH. Though, that may just be because... none of them need to thus be limited.)

Initial Concerns:

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Draw and Play are now GCD actions, not oGCDs.

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Does this mean it effectively requires two full GCDs to deploy a single Card, or are you adding the ability for a hotbar space to act simultaneously as a GCD (Draw) and an oGCD (Play) and/or splitting those buttons?

Note that even taking up a single GCD requires that you at least double the value of the Card just to keep up with current Malefic (which is itself nerfed to make up for Card rDPS being free/bonus). For Cards to compete with a compensatory-buffed Malefic when each Card takes two GCDs to deploy, you'd need around 5x their power.

Otherwise, this seems... fine?

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Reduce the CD on Cards to something like 15 or 20 sec. Still stacks to 2.

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Likewise, fine.

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Delayed actions are now outright actions, like as not. So Earthly Star works like Assize.

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Why would that be necessary? Was this second brain cell just too much for that niche in the 4-Healer Model?

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Either remove Minor Arcana or split it into a different category of buff.

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Likewise, why would this be necessary? Though, you also seem to be mixing the Major and Minor Arcana here??

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I've before suggested Minor Arcana be Bole (mitigation), Ewer (MP regen), probably Arrow (movement speed)

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If you want to split the Draw pile in half, with generic damage buffs in the first and situational buffs in the second, that actually sounds fine... but I'm still not sure what that would have to do with Minor Arcana (Lady and Lord), and having removed Redraw, you've removed almost all agency from its core gimmick.


Broader Concerns:

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Though honestly it staying as it is is probably fine, it's just WHM doesn't have anything like this to compare it to so...

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Why does making AST even the "As simple and straightforward as is possible (while still at least slightly distinguishable from comatose)" niche job in your model... demand that it be WHM?

Whatever point your test would otherwise potentially have seems removed by this circuitous logic. "WHM must be the simple job because I need a simple job because a simple job is necessary, and no other job can be the simple job because they can't be WHM enough"? There's nothing about WHM's thematic components or any other job's that demands that they be simple, nor is there any demand that simplicity can only come in the form WHM currently presents.

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That would probably do the general job of making AST into something for the people that like current WHM.

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If the only thing they significantly like about WHM is its low APM, rather than its aesthetic, Misery, its direct damage options, etc... Which, doesn't seem terribly likely.

Like the Realm Reborn you appear to have dropped the moon on the class in an attempt to reshape it into something entirely unlike what it was originally intended to be

Shurrikhan hits most of the points but I'll respond (since this appears to be a callout post of sorts):

1: why does any job that is 'the one exempted from change' under the 4 healer model have to be forced into the WHM hole regardless of shape? Half of the upcoming changes amount to 'here is an AST tool, how can we make it functionally as close as possible to a WHM analogue skill'. I would agree that AST is probably the least fitting job for this kind of thinking. My asking 'why not AST' was to try and understand what it is about jobs and their respective sources of complexity that you take issue with. Now I think I understand. It seems to be 'everything'. AST has a damage rotation that matches what you want (one nuke, one DOT 30s long) but that would not count, because it has cards too

2a: As Shurri says, having both on the GCD would be incredibly weird and scuffed. Auto-Drawing the next card as a trait, and having just Play on the GCD would be less scuffed, I'd assume. It'd slow the class down to a crawl but I suppose that's the point. Shoutout to the shoehorned Misery comparison, instead of tuning the cards to be a gain despite costing a GCD to play, a very SE-approved design choice

2b: As above, when it comes to complexity it seems 'everything' is the issue. You know you can just detonate Star early and it's stronger than a Rapture still? Horoscope also actually does work kinda like Plenary. Just, the old one from Stormblood. The one that was generally panned so it got reworked, yeh that one. I wouldn't complain if Horoscope got removed/folded into one of the THREE other 60s AST has tbh but that's another topic

2c: The Bole, Ewer and Spire are Major Arcana. That's not even gameplay, that's lore. A change like this one would require them to rewrite the lore and change the AST quests (again)

2d: Having the cards be more often would require that their potencies be reduced to compensate. We get one every 30s, and it's 6%. Reducing it to 15 or 20 would require dropping their effects to 3% and 4% respectively. We already see complaints about the cards feeling bad because their effects are so 'invisible without a parser', this goes in the wrong direction. I think it'd be better to have them be less often (say, 1min), maybe remove the charges, and bump it's potency so it has some oomph. Then to keep the APM of the class, make Minor Arcana actually interesting and available very often (I'd say 15s, so I assume you'd go for 30s or so for the purposes of this)

2e: Did it need POM? Rather than any other potential selfbuff action you could have come up with, you went with 'the one WHM has'? I get that this is 'if AST was like WHM' but you're going for 'if AST was literally WHM with a VFX mod applied'

2f: Agency removed, RNG mitigation removed, the aesthetic of the job is not 'it reads fate', it's 'it bends fate'

2g: Probably the only thing on here that I'll agree with, and not because it's a good idea, it's just that Astrodyne is THAT bad

2h: Neutral Sect shows how behind the times WHM's design actually is. It's not often that NS is 'useful', but the times where it is, it absolutely blows Temperance out of the water IMO. It's a CD that, for 20s every 2mins, allows the AST to say 'I do not vibe with the Pure/Barrier split' and just do both at the same time. In situations like Harrowing Hell, that's ridiculous power. Plus, applying a shield at the end of the duration allows for the overall 'coverage' to be anywhere from 20s to 50s, depending when the next damage comes in. Temperance lasts 5s longer than it claims, but if a raidwide happens 30s after the one you first popped NS/Temp for, only NS is gonna be able to have it's effect reach to that second raidwide

2i: Those skills are probably fine to leave as is, yes. As much as I harp on Exaltation/Protraction/Aquaveil for feeling 'bloaty', Exaltation is just better than Aquaveil. 5% versus 500p heal after the buff falls off, I'll take the auto-heal. 500's quite a lot

2j: Some of these make some sense, some make absolutely none. Like CO/Star. You might not have noticed, but AST's 'lilies' ARE Star, COpp and CU/Horoscope. Ration them out equally across their 1min CD, and you have one per 20s.

SE will absolutely 100% miss the mark on the AST changes with the rework.

TLDR review: if this is 'A Job Reborn', wake me up when the Heavensward equivalent gets released

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why does making AST even the "As simple and straightforward as is possible (while still at least slightly distinguishable from comatose)" niche job in your model... demand that it be WHM?

Whatever point your test would otherwise potentially have seems removed by this circuitous logic. "WHM must be the simple job because I need a simple job because a simple job is necessary, and no other job can be the simple job because they can't be WHM enough"? There's nothing about WHM's thematic components or any other job's that demands that they be simple, nor is there any demand that simplicity can only come in the form WHM currently presents.

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I wonder, was WHM the 'simple job' in 6.0 by Ren's standards?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

1) Objectives:
a) A similar APM to current day WHM.
b) A similar complexity to current day WHM.
c) A similar rotation to current day WHM.
d) A similar healer kit to current day WHM.

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You can achieve this much simpler than what you have here.

• Remove Trashtrodyne

This is the source of the high APM on AST. Remove this, there's no reason to rush cards out so you have it for the opener. This also means a removal of the seals system.

• Remove a charge of Draw
• Remove Celestial Intersection
• Remove Collective Unconciousness
• Remove Undraw
• Remove Horoscope

This is mostly to reduce the extra oGCDs AST has in comparison.

WHM does have some oGCDs, may stand to have a bit more, but it doesn't need to be fully on the GCD model and I don't think AST needs to be either.

I chose to remove CI over Exal because Exaltation is a better thematic Divine Bension.
I chose to remove CU for no reason other than its a channeled ability. You can move Celestial Opposition here instead.

Horoscope I don't think needs to be removed since to use the bigger heal you need to use a GCD anyway... But if we're going to instead turn it into a GCD... I mean Macrocosmos is right there just reduce the recast timer then.

• CO becomes a GCD and costs mana. Recast timer can stay at 60s.
  
• Earthly Star I don't know what to do with honestly. It doesn't need to be changed (aside from its radius reduction ffs SE).
  
• Minor Arcana... Remove it. I don't see a way of consolidating it.
  
• Cards remain unchanged.
  
• Remove a charge of Essential Dignity. I think its recharge timer is fine. I'd change what level you get it at, but not much else.

Perposed changes:

• Neutral Sect impacts more of AST's kit - specifically with CO/CU, Exalt.

In the case of CO, like Nocturnal Sect did previously it shields.
With CU I would split the mitigation and HoT. Under Neutral you would have both. Without it, just the mitigation.
Exaltation would be closer to Divine Bension in giving an actual shield and not mitigation. When consumed or Exaltation ends it applies a heal equal to the total shield when it is first applied.

If instead we'd rather remove Neutral that is an option.

• Synastry now works with Exaltation, A. Benefic, and Essential Dignity.

This is for more kit cohesion. Personally if we're trying to reduce complexity with AST you'd want to remove Synastry all together. But you can also not make this change and it would be fine.

Because Lightspeed is a thing...

• Increase cast times from 1.5 to 2s.

Cards are still on the oGCD. Lightspeed can be used for movement or for heavy healing instances since its now no longer required for Astrodyne/Divination windows. Jury's out on having 2 charges or not

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

You can achieve this much simpler than what you have here.

• Remove Trashtrodyne

This is the source of the high APM on AST. Remove this, there's no reason to rush cards out so you have it for the opener. This also means a removal of the seals system.

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Technically, if not for your also having removed the second charge from Draw, you'd still rush Cards out so that, far more importantly, they're up for their recipients' openers, stacking as tightly as is possible with Divination.

Removing Astrodyne also removes roughly half the optimization available to cards, since you're not returning any of the old Card model here to replace Seal, nor returning Divination to its original form.

Removing the second charge on Cards reduces the busyness of AST, but also takes away yet more of its otherwise available optimization. Hrmm.

I guess I just have to ask, are some these suggestions in emulation of reducing the job's skill ceiling per the original Ren goal, or are they all honest preferences?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Technically, if not for your also having removed the second charge from Draw, you'd still rush Cards out so that, far more importantly, they're up for their recipients' openers, stacking as tightly as is possible with Divination.

Removing Astrodyne also removes roughly half the optimization available to cards, since you're not returning any of the old Card model here to replace Seal, nor returning Divination to its original form.

Removing the second charge on Cards reduces the busyness of AST, but also takes away yet more of its otherwise available optimization. Hrmm.

I guess I just have to ask, are some these suggestions in emulation of reducing the job's skill ceiling per the original Ren goal, or are they all honest preferences?

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The only change I listed here as an actual preference is Synastry's change.

Actual changes I'd like to see on AST aren't listed here.

No thank you, I personally prefer AST's higher APM gameplay compared to WHM's. （*´▽｀*）
I like having cards to weave between GCD.
I like the delayed actions you can manually set off.
You did a whole thread asking AST players why they like the job and this is what you got from it? Or did you just not care? If you want a healer like WHM, just play WHM. Don't steamroll other jobs. ･:*+.\(( °ω° ))/.:+
The only things I'll agree with you is we don't need Minor Arcana and Astrodyne in their current states. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

You did a whole thread asking AST players why they like the job and this is what you got from it?

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Chances are it's my fault somehow

I don’t think the idea of GCD Cards is bad overall, it’s more just that it’s not logistically possible lol.

Like, I’d be happy if cards were like 4X-5X times the potency to account for lost dps, but I don’t think the devs would see it that way lol. Plus it’d be a nightmare to balance, since they’d have to account for the fact that dps is fairly variable, so they’d have to account for the contribution based on what it would add to each job individually (i.e, a Samurai would get more damage out of it than a Bard or Dancer).

It’s a fun idea but sadly wouldn’t work out. That said, I would like to see cards be more than just ‘something you slot between Malefic casts’. I feel like they should central to how it plays, even if it’s difficult for that concept to actually manifest in practice lol.

I could see that there could be some leeway for (a), other than that I would say why not just play WHM? These objectives (below) don't describe why I selected AST, or those that I would want implemented in future- I would be more aligned with the changes to astrodyne, for example, card potency changes, or even consolidation to some OGCD heals.
A) similar APM to current day WHM.
b) A similar complexity to current day WHM.
c) A similar rotation to current day WHM.
d) A similar healer kit to current day WHM.

GCD cards could be much easier to tune if they simply gave flat potency onto the targets next attack rather than all having to all be to percentage based buffs where things can potentially balloon out of control.

And ya, ASTs overall APM is fine, the main issue is that it's all dogpiled into the burst window currently. If that was addressed and it became optimal for us to spread cards out evenly, it wouldn't be a problem IMO.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

GCD cards could be much easier to tune if they simply gave flat potency onto the targets next attack rather than all having to all be to percentage based buffs where things can potentially balloon out of control.

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If you attach a flat potency increase then its value would vary hugely around offensive APM and damage modifiers. For instance, if it would directly increase the potency of each action by, say, 50, it would actually increase the value of BLM fire actions by 90... before even adding in Enochian, and Mage's and Army's Paeon would both likely outperform Wanderer's Minuet, etc., while MCH takes the world by storm, and SCHs' Energy Drain would make a much larger difference than just its current up-to-390 relative ppm.

Restrict that to affecting GCDs only and you'll have made Physical Ranged better recipients than all other DPS save Monk and BLM, and Healers better recipients even than physical ranged, just through their bonus damage from traits (20% for Rangers, 30% for healers).

A simple percentile damage bonus is already the easiest thing to balance, because it interacts only with the final product, rather than any of the varied factors in getting there.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Like the Realm Reborn you appear to have dropped the moon on the class in an attempt to reshape it into something entirely unlike what it was originally intended to be

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...which is the very reason I say I don't recommend this. You just asked what it would take, and this is telling you what it would take and why I don't recommend it.

As for the why of WHM; note that SCH and SGE have the same cadence. Moreover, WHM is the most played. Meaning if we were going to preserve the playstyle, WHM would be the goal. It's weird how it's so blindingly apparent to me, yet with no amount of argument or explanation can I get you (the "general you", you, Shurrikhan, etc) to see it. I'm not sure if you don't want to, or if it's just experience and preference are so divorced, you literally can't see it. But the end result is the same either way. It'd just be nice to know if there was a way to explain it where you'd understand...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Still don't see why...

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I know.
That's the problem.
You don't see.

I don't mean this to be snarky, it's just...frustrating. Anyway, read the explanation below and you'll understand why I posted this and why I think it's NOT a good idea. Me posting it was, in fact, to show WHY it's not a good idea.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

You can achieve this much simpler...

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In some ways, yes, but in some, that misses the mark. Solace/Rapture/Misery are on the GCD. Cards would need to be as well for it to have a similar feel. Moreover, actively buffing people is something that both AST players specifically and players that don't like damage rotations more generally seem to enjoy. Having more of it, but it being more manageable, would be the goal, hence the GCD changes. Making Draw/Play GCDs fixes that problem while not forcing people away from buffing into even more Malificspam, and with the specific proposed change (buffing a future Malific) both plays into AST's time/fate bending aesthetic and parallels the Misery system that WHM's love and that has been something pretty much everyone likes in at least some way. Even the people that want "more nature spells" tend to like the Lily/Misery system 5.0-Present, especially post-6.1.

I also find it really weird that the abilities you like the least are the ones I find the most interesting. Like I'd never get rid of Collective Unconscious. That's an ability I've wanted on WHM since I saw Louisouix use the bigger version in the End of an Era, and since seeing Y'Shtola use it (as a CNJ) at the end of ARR. I'd never toss that ability in a million years, yet it's one of the first that folks like you would throw out the window. Though I do agree Undraw is utterly pointless.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

GCD cards could be much easier to tune if they simply gave flat potency onto the targets next attack rather than all having to all be to percentage based buffs where things can potentially balloon out of control.

And ya, ASTs overall APM is fine, the main issue is that it's all dogpiled into the burst window currently. If that was addressed and it became optimal for us to spread cards out evenly, it wouldn't be a problem IMO.

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One thing not even captured in the APM is all the target swapping. Yeah, some people use macros, but a lot do not, so that's a lot of extra "actions" that aren't even accounted for, but are still button presses (on controller)/mouse clicks (KB&M). Though I'm kind of curious what AST's overall APM would be without Draw/Play.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen anyone make a "current average APM of all Jobs" table in a long time. Wonder if there's a more up to date one than...late ShB/early EW.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Restrict that to affecting GCDs only and you'll have made Physical Ranged better recipients than all other DPS save Monk and BLM, and Healers better recipients even than physical ranged, just through their bonus damage from traits (20% for Rangers, 30% for healers).

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MNK and NIN, right? NIN's attack speed buff makes it faster as well. Not sure what DNC/BRD go for these days, though, but it's slower than Huton, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Chances are it's my fault somehow

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I mean...in this case, it literally is? XD You know that, though.

Gotta address this one, as I feel this person was just caught up in the crossfire without any understanding of the prior conversation:

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

No thank you, I personally prefer AST's higher APM gameplay compared to WHM's. （*´▽｀*）
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You did a whole thread asking AST players why they like the job and this is what you got from it? Or did you just not care? If you want a healer like WHM, just play WHM. Don't steamroll other jobs. ･:*+.\(( °ω° ))/.:+
The only things I'll agree with you is we don't need Minor Arcana and Astrodyne in their current states. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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I've proposed before a suggestion for the people wanting "more DPS buttons and high dps rotation skill ceiling on healers" that we change a couple of them while leaving others alone. My personal ideal is to leave WHM as it is, give AST its SB cards back, give SCH its SB damage spells (DoTs and such) back, and give SGE a rotation kinda like SMN or RDM with it healing through Kardia.

But people like Roe constantly ask me "Why WHM? Why not...?" AST, SCH, or SGE as the one left alone. I've presented plenty of arguments for why, but they like just ignoring that I made them or pretending they don't matter.

For WHM, it's obvious; it's the simple healer, always has been, and it plays today very much like it did in ShB in terms of rotational cadence, and in ARR and even HW, it wasn't a huge DPS rotating powerhouse and has always had a pretty streamlind rotation and relatively slim ability suite/hotbar non-bloat. It starts at level 1, people who play it largely do so because they like it, and people seem to enjoy the Lily system and WHM's raw healing etc etc. Plenty of reasons.

SGE is probably the next easiest to play now, was designed and implemented just like it has been, so no one can complain about it having "lost" or removed abilities that they "want back" since it's only ever been in the form it's in today. It works in the current encounter design space, it largely knows what it wants, and starting at a high level means it can be picked up by new healers - that is, people new to the role that want to add a high level healer to their roster.

SCH makes less sense, as it does have more people don't like about it and is largely considered a more clunky SGE, and it lost a lot of abilities going from Stormblood to Shadowbringers. So having it be one of the ones changed makes far more sense, though it would be third on my list of ones for people that like the current overall healer gameplay. I feel it makes much more sense to revert it to its SB form, albeit with some modern additions like the better pet AI and Expedience.

AST makes the least sense of all to me to suit the purpose of appealing to people that like the current combat system. It's the least "normal" (compared to the other three) healers now with its very high APM that turns a lot of people off (but others love it), and it has a lot of clunk and jank that people dislike, and long time ASTs still pine for the SB days of cards that had different and more interesting buff effects. It makes WAY more sense to capitalize on that and really gear AST to be the healer that appeals to players who enjoy buffing allies and using bigbrain delayed effects and such. But, Roe was pushing the issue, so I told her I'd list what changes would have to be made to AST to appeal to the players that want something like current WHM - and WHY I thought it was a bad idea, as literally no one would like it. Even the players like me that want to keep one like WHM or SGE the same wouldn't like it so much as tolerate it, and it would alienate existing AST players and AST vets who want the SB incarnation back.

But because the gauntlet was thrown down, this was the answer.

And, honestly, I feel doing the 4 Healers Model would be useful for one more reason - it would finally put to bed the argument of whether players want more complex healers with more damage buttons or less complex ones with fewer. If everyone went to the simpler healers, we'd know that those wanting more DPS buttons and more complexity were the minority. If more go to the more complex one, we'd know they were the majority. If it's about equal, then we'd know that both sides represent large segments of the playerbase, and it only makes sense to have healer Jobs suited to both sides. It's really the only way, absent a massive poll by SE, that we could find the answer to that question.

So no, this wasn't what I got from the AST thread. This is a completely different project. And yes, I like WHM (and SCH and SGE), and AST is my least favorite healer in general. I love that it exists, because I know some people really really like it. And I'm happy it's there for them and WHM is over here for folks like me. :)

I'm the one arguing we need that. I'm the one opposed to taking it away.

So, in short...we're on the same side. This thread was devil's advocate. :)

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I could see that there could be some leeway for (a), other than that I would say why not just play WHM?

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Please read the above.

Roe put a challenge to me to why AST couldn't work in place of WHM for my 4 Healers Model. Despite me explaining many many many times over why it would be the worst choice.

This is me making the point in concrete terms. I'm glad everyone agrees with me on it.

"why not just play WHM?"

Because everyone and their dog here is insisting WHM be changed from what it is today! This is my very point. Don't change WHM and I'll keep playing WHM. Simple. I'm glad everyone finally gets it. \o/
(Okay, I know you guys still don't get - or don't agree - with it, but your posts are basically explaining why the 4 Healers Model IS the ideal. XD)

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That said, it's not just a shitepost. There are things in there that I think are interesting design directions, and some likely have merit. I fully expect the AST rework will involve doing something about the APM, though I have no idea what the Devs will come up with. But the point of this thread was to show Roe why it can't be AST that is "the simple one".

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Originally Posted by Renathras

In some ways, yes, but in some, that misses the mark. Solace/Rapture/Misery are on the GCD. Cards would need to be as well for it to have a similar feel. Moreover, actively buffing people is something that both AST players specifically and players that don't like damage rotations more generally seem to enjoy. Having more of it, but it being more manageable, would be the goal, hence the GCD changes. Making Draw/Play GCDs fixes that problem while not forcing people away from buffing into even more Malificspam, and with the specific proposed change (buffing a future Malific) both plays into AST's time/fate bending aesthetic and parallels the Misery system that WHM's love and that has been something pretty much everyone likes in at least some way. Even the people that want "more nature spells" tend to like the Lily/Misery system 5.0-Present, especially post-6.1.

I also find it really weird that the abilities you like the least are the ones I find the most interesting. Like I'd never get rid of Collective Unconscious. That's an ability I've wanted on WHM since I saw Louisouix use the bigger version in the End of an Era, and since seeing Y'Shtola use it (as a CNJ) at the end of ARR. I'd never toss that ability in a million years, yet it's one of the first that folks like you would throw out the window. Though I do agree Undraw is utterly pointless.

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Your goal was to simplify AST from what it is and to make it slower more in line to WHM.

It does not have to have 1:1 GCDs as WHM to achieve that, and I designed my mock up in such a way.

Further, I'm not putting cards on the GCD for the simple reason as an AST main I hate the idea and want nothing to do with it. You can slow the APM down and keep them oGCD.

I can’t see how they could keep cards as oGCD’s and reduce the APM in the burst because they could never realistically tune the cards in such a way that dumping in the burst window isn’t optimal, they could remove the second charge on draw but APM of AST was still high in the burst window of ShB after they changed sleeve draw

The only thing you could do is gut auxiliary damage options like star and minor arcana so your entire burst window basically just becomes cards, even then it’s still debatable if it would fix the problem

The APM of Astrologian is why I enjoy playing it. If the cards get moved to the GCD, that's going to be the day I quit healing in this game because it makes me fall asleep. I also straight up don't understand why anyone would want to make AST more of a WHM clone than it already is. If anything, we should be leaning into delayed healing and diversifying healing tools in general, so that healers have some decision making to do if they want to be using the right tool for the job in a particular situation.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I can’t see how they could keep cards as oGCD’s and reduce the APM in the burst because they could never realistically tune the cards in such a way that dumping in the burst window isn’t optimal, they could remove the second charge on draw but APM of AST was still high in the burst window of ShB after they changed sleeve draw

The only thing you could do is gut auxiliary damage options like star and minor arcana so your entire burst window basically just becomes cards, even then it’s still debatable if it would fix the problem

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I mean, AST's APM is so high because you're trying to get seals.

In Shb it was so you could have Divination up (and then buffs of Lord/Lady until that was changed).

In EW its so you can have Astrodyne up on yourself (and 2-3 buffs on 2-3 party members).

Once you're out the opener though, AST's APM kinda drops. You don't have 2 charges of Draw constantly after all and you're gaining seals as you buff your allies.

Now targeting on controller adds more to it since you need to cycle from what I'm hearing on the party list, which is where I think the APM is blown out the water by comparison to kb+m, but I don't think there's a fix for that in terms of AST's kit.

Moving it to the GCD doesn't change that you still need to target your allies which is going to be a few extra presses compared to a MO or mouse click - tab back to target on kb.

Targeting on controller adds APM regardless of its a GCD or oGCD but you have far more wiggle room to soft target in a Insta-cast GCD (which is why I actually quite like phlegma) that also double as the initial action (because you can queue it) than weaving it into an unrelated GCD damage option

AST is always going to be harder on controller but I do think the difference in relative difficulty is a bit too high right now, controller being disadvantaged I do think is one of the valid reasons to change a job (whereas say liking the aesthetics of the hard job in your role but wanting said job to be easy is not), it’s the same reason as on since square refuses to adapt Alexander into a feature I support changes that benefit people that suffer from poor ping

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Originally Posted by Renathras

MNK and NIN, right? NIN's attack speed buff makes it faster as well.

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NIN's is only 15%, and it has no damage buff, so it would still fall short of physical ranged under flat-bonus-potency-per-GCD buffs. MNK gives 20% atop a 10% buff, slightly edging out healers and physical ranged while still falling short of BLM if the bonus damage is granted as a part of the actions themselves instead of as a separate attack (wherein BLM's 23% bonus from Enochian would stack with its +80% Fire Damage under AF3 in order to get 121.4% more value out of the buff that is labeled on the tin -- utterly imbalanced).

If the bonus were to affect GCDs only, was dealt separately (so no Astral Fire benefit on BLM) but still inherited the effects of traits (Maim and Mend, Job Actions Bonus, Enochian) and buffs, then MCH with sufficient Heat would be best, then Bard under Paeon, then MNK, then BLM, then everyone else well behind.

If the bonus were to GCDs only, was dealt separately, and was not affected by traits (only affected by damage buffs), then it'd be MCH (w/ Heat) > MNK (+20% Haste, +10% Damage) > DRG w/ Lance Charge and Dragon Sight (+30% Damage) > SAM (+13% Haste, +13% Damage) > Bard w/ Paeon and Raging (+16% Haste, +10% Damage) > NIN with TA (+15% Haste, +10% Damage) > PLD under FoF (+25% damage) > GNB under NM / DRG with just LC or just DS (+20% Damage) > BRD w/ Paeon (+16% Haste) > NIN / BLM with Ley Lines (+15% Haste) > DRG / RPR / DRK / WAR (+10% Damage) > etc., etc.

But yeah, long story short -- using flat potency bonuses would be absurdly imbalanced. +% Damage is literally already the most balanced buff possible.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

...which is the very reason I say I don't recommend this. You just asked what it would take, and this is telling you what it would take and why I don't recommend it.

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I don't recall asking for any amount of reworking to AST. I remember asking 'if one healer has to get zero additional damage buttons, what if it was AST, since it's always had comparatively less even in SB, so as to allow more mental load to be dedicated to the cards'. This aligns with what SE tends to do, which is to 'increase healer job complexity' (debatable) by adding new healing or mitigation tools. So, I was trying to work out whether your '4 Healers' thingy was actually about the damage rotations as you say, or if it was just 'complexity' in general. Because AST is currently the (arguably) most complex of the four, while leaving it exactly as it is would theoretically meet the requirements of your model (if it were only about damage), I would assume that taking that path is not actually what you're after with your model. Which, given your reaction to what I posted was to mockup a design to turn each AST ability into a WHM copypaste, seems to track

The '4 Healers' model has nothing to do with keeping one healer as it is for the people who enjoy the current gameplay style. It's about keeping one specific healer the same, by the looks of it, said specific healer to be chosen at the discretion of the person pitching the model. If it were about 'keep one healer (any one of the four) the same', AST being kept the same fulfills that. If it were about 'keep one healer (any one of the four) having the same damage button rotation', SGE gaining complexity via making it's 'healing via doing damage' identity more of a focus of it's gameplay, would fulfill that. But these do not count. Instead, every example you've given of what would fulfill the conditions of this model, is either that WHM stays the same, or that whatever job that takes WHM's place to spare it from the sacrificial altar for one more day, becomes eerily WHM-esque in how it's skills operate

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

(wherein BLM's 23% bonus from Enochian would stack with its +80% Fire Damage under AF3 in order to get 121.4% more value out of the buff that is labeled on the tin -- utterly imbalanced).

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Damn I forgot Enochian exists. So then, the 310 of Fire 4 is not actually effectively 558 as I thought (which is already a silly high number), but 686? No wonder there's so much optimization room regarding Thunder refresh timings and the like, when stuff all has different percentages applied to modify the 'effective potency'

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Damn I forgot Enochian exists. So then, the 310 of Fire 4 is not actually effectively 558 as I thought (which is already a silly high number), but 686? No wonder there's so much optimization room regarding Thunder refresh timings and the like, when stuff all has different percentages applied to modify the 'effective potency'

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Yep, and it doesn't scale linearly with stacks and there is virtually zero information in-game as to what AF's modifiers are. You'd think they'd just use a steady 20, 25, or 33% per stack, base numbers thus adjusted, but no:

30|60|80% Fire dmg amp, with 0|0|50% Ice cast-time reduction, 25|50|100% Ice MP costs, and 100|100|100% increased Fire MP costs. The only intuitive part is the -10|-20|-30% Ice damage per AF stack.

I get that they need the 100% decreased MP costs to have removed MP management and tick tracking from the class (which I think was a mistake, especially since it invited Flare nerfs, but oh well), but the rest seems like it could be made a whole lot more intuitive:

Astral Fire: +33|67|100% Fire Damage, -33|67|100% Ice MP costs, -20|40|60% Ice Cast Times.

No penalty to opposite element (since that's already, relatively speaking, baked into the greater damage amp). Can retain the doubled Fire costs in AF, change them likewise to +33|67|100% MP costs and round the base costs to the nearest multiple of 300, or just double Fire spells' base MP costs.

Umbral Ice: -33|67|100% MP Costs, -20|40|60% Fire Cast Times, and +20|40|60% of max MP generated per tick.

The current MP ticks rates are 3200|4700|6200 for whatever reason.

I'd recommend a background change of MP ticking at one's GCD rate instead (since they're not synced to the HP/DoT/HoT global tick anyways and that would automatically solve Spell Speed's MP inefficiency issue while also allowing Piety not head into "ugly numbers" territory by just further amping tick rate instead), which would incidentally buff this further, but this would work in either case.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But yeah, long story short -- using flat potency bonuses would be absurdly imbalanced. +% Damage is literally already the most balanced buff possible.

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Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I don't recall...in how it's skills operate

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In simple terms "at least one staying for people who enjoy healing right now". Note that AST plays the least like the other three, and is either the least played or second least played (depending on which metric you use), and the least liked (or second least liked) in most polls. I don't think most people who enjoy healing as it is now would enjoy AST as it is now, given that AST is arguably the least played healer Job. So it doesn't really meet the requirement unless it were changed to be more like the other healers.

Indeed, most of the people who play AST now here freely say it's because it doesn't play like the other healers...and are the players asking for more damage buttons and more kit in general, meaning AST doesn't appeal to the same audience that the "one for people who like healers today" needs to appeal to. Hence why it would require changes. Indeed, WHM, SCH, and SGE could probably be left EXACTLY as they are now with no issue, but AST couldn't be for that reason.

EDIT:

To make more sense of it - suppose 80% of healers right now don't play AST (AST is played by something like 15-low-20s% of the healer playerbase). Meaning people that like healing right now largely aren't playing AST. Meaning that AST doesn't appeal to them...otherwise, presumably, they'd be playing it.

So, a healer Job that appeals to them wouldn't be AST as it is right now. Again, the people who most like AST as it is right now...are the people asking for the changes you want to be made to the role and Jobs. The people who like healing right now are mostly playing the other healer Jobs. And most of the people who are playing AST right now seem to want to go back to the SB incarnation of it anyway. Granted, we don't have metrics on THAT that we can truly trust, but we have long had metrics indicating AST is the least played.

Meaning, to people who find healing enjoyable right now, AST doesn't suit them in its current form. That's why it would have to be changed for that to work.

Again, something untrue of the other three.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If you attach a flat potency increase then its value would vary hugely around offensive APM and damage modifiers. For instance, if it would directly increase the potency of each action by, say, 50, it would actually increase the value of BLM fire actions by 90... before even adding in Enochian, and Mage's and Army's Paeon would both likely outperform Wanderer's Minuet, etc., while MCH takes the world by storm, and SCHs' Energy Drain would make a much larger difference than just its current up-to-390 relative ppm.

Restrict that to affecting GCDs only and you'll have made Physical Ranged better recipients than all other DPS save Monk and BLM, and Healers better recipients even than physical ranged, just through their bonus damage from traits (20% for Rangers, 30% for healers).

A simple percentile damage bonus is already the easiest thing to balance, because it interacts only with the final product, rather than any of the varied factors in getting there.

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I probably should have been clearer ya. My thoughts were more akin to ffxi en spells. A flat potency hit that’s added on independently of your own attack. That would bypass the multiplicative spiral entirely.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I probably should have been clearer ya. My thoughts were more akin to ffxi en spells. A flat potency hit that’s added on independently of your own attack. That would bypass the multiplicative spiral entirely.

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That would not bypass the multiplicative spiral entirely, even then. Modifiers like Fight or Flight and Twin Snakes still affect such things. Even if they didn't, you'd then have only two optimal targets, a Heated MCH and Monk. Such would be far worse than what we have now, so I don't understand what you hope to accomplish by moving away from the already most balanced form the buff could take.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That would not bypass the multiplicative spiral entirely, even then. Modifiers like Fight or Flight and Twin Snakes still affect such things.

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That would be circumvented by limiting the number of hits that get the added potency hit no?

To be clear, at it's most basic level, my idea boils down to 'take my nuke potency and put it on another players next attack'.

Dress it up as an enspell akin to what we saw in the old XIV intro cinematic with the Marlboro and I'd be willing to bet that it'd be received in a better light than the current crop of glare mages with different oGCDs, think Yelan's burst in Genshin if you're familiar with it. Perhaps if explored properly, this could be a gimmick for a healer other than AST?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

That would be circumvented by limiting the number of hits that get the added potency hit no?

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Not unless you don't actually give the effect over to that other person and instead generate some sort of new unit to cast the ability without benefiting from any player's damage modifiers.

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To be clear, at it's most basic level, my idea boils down to 'take my nuke potency and put it on another players next attack'.

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Which, if you give over possession, will be worth 25% more on them if they have 25% more damage buff value up than you do (e.g., a Fight or Flight while you have nothing).

For this to work as you imagine, the amount of damage (which cannot be simple potency, since that is an input, not an output) to be attached to the recipient's actions would have to be pre-set much like a barrier's HP (but without any possible recipient-dependent effect on that amount saved), AND exempted from the recipient's damage amplifiers, AND capped to a total value if applied over multiple hits, AND done as a separate action.

It's possible to do, but then at "best" it makes it so that timing and target selection doesn't matter whatsoever, and at second best its optimizations are identical to +%Damage.

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Perhaps if explored properly, this could be a gimmick for a healer other than AST?

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Aye, but see above. You have to decide how distinguishable you want its best use case to be from its worst.

Given sufficient new tech, yes, you could balance it marble smooth so that nothing matters whatsoever. You could make it so the recipient's actual output over the period to be affected is what matters (as +%Damage), or you could have different components of that output be weighed differently such that a normally worse choice (under +%Damage) could be the better choice instead.

Personally, +%Damage already seems a good balance between knowing your party's damage dynamics and 95+% of your attention being demanded just to math out the best recipient for the particular span of time, etc. I wouldn't hate a job having the latter, as we could always just do less than what is optimal and still feel pretty satisfied with that gameplay, but I also don't think it'd be treated as a noticeable improvement to most players. On the other hand, I do think a balanced-flat buff would be the least appreciated of all.