Next Demi-Primal?

Hello fellow eorzeans,

So it's safe to say summoners might be getting a new demi-primal in 7.0. So I want to see which will you all prefer. Alexander or Odin?

I can't wait to see what the majority is.

I, myself would love Odin.

Ramuh, Leviathan, and Shiva. Long missing and overdue.

Good King Moogle-Mog would be a fun addition too.

^cant wait to play with more Lego blocks but this time in the new designer colours of blue, light blue and purple

Why "safe to say"?

Besides the most literal "it's not dangerous to say something might happen", what reason is there to specifically think there's a good chance of getting another?

Also, being limited to a side story quest, Alexander would be unlikely to get added as an egi.

If they pick Odin, would be cool if we summon the blade and become Odin for 15s, gaining mount movement speed but all our attacks are melee-ranged.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Ramuh, Leviathan, and Shiva. Long missing and overdue.

Good King Moogle-Mog would be a fun addition too.

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Wasn’t talking about the primals attached to the demi summons. Was talking about an actual new Demi-primal. I’m sure we will get shiva, ramuh and Levi after Phoenix phase. That’s sure to be a given.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Why "safe to say"?

Besides the most literal "it's not dangerous to say something might happen", what reason is there to specifically think there's a good chance of getting another?

Also, being limited to a side story quest, Alexander would be unlikely to get added as an egi.

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It’s me manifesting it lol.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

If they pick Odin, would be cool if we summon the blade and become Odin for 15s, gaining mount movement speed but all our attacks are melee-ranged.

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I like it that as well but was actually thinking we summon Odin and also gain a sword and attach along with him. All melee range attacks.

Personally, I think it would be cool if SMN got a Shiva Trance like Bahamaut and Phoenix.
Seeing as we can know up to two Shivas personally, it just makes sense to me that Shiva should get special treatment. （*´▽｀*）

what we need is Amethyst Ramuh Sapphire Leviathan and Diamond Shiva I hope.

Hmmm, it might be fun if after Phoenix was cast, Garuda, Titan, and Ifrit were replaced with other Summons until Bahamut was cast. In which cast I'd just love to see the classics: Shiva, Ramuh, and Leviathan. Seeing 8 summons every 2 minutes would be cool ^^

Alexander should be the next one.

Why think small.

Ultima the High Seraph, or Ozma the unlimited.

No, I'm not even close to thinking big enough...

Cosmos!

No...

CHAOS!

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Also, being limited to a side story quest, Alexander would be unlikely to get added as an egi.

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Coil is also a side story and they bent themselves backwards to retcon a reason in for Phoenix to exist. SE hasn't cared about Summoner lore in years anyways, they can just throw whatever in and as long as it looks cool people will go nuts for it for another 4-5 months before realizing what a vapid mess it is once again.

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Originally Posted by Flana

Coil is also a side story and they bent themselves backwards to retcon a reason in for Phoenix to exist. SE hasn't cared about Summoner lore in years anyways, they can just throw whatever in and as long as it looks cool people will go nuts for it for another 4-5 months before realizing what a vapid mess it is once again.

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I mean, if any class should be vapid, SMN is the one that makes sense! In the traditional FF games summoning is generally a one button, high-MP nuke. Nothing particularly big-brain about that! ^^

Joking aside, I personally think the new SMN is genuinely a better designed class. It feels more like a SMN, and it's nice to actually rotate through all your summons rather than only seeing 3 the whole time while doing non-summony busywork like managing DoT's.

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Originally Posted by Flana

Coil is also a side story and they bent themselves backwards to retcon a reason in for Phoenix to exist.

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Depends whether they started from "we're doing this; come up with a reason" or "we can justify this in lore, so let's do it".

Phoenix has a ready-made reason; the same one that they already used to allow summoners to use Dreadwyrm Trance. Alexander is harder to justify because it hasn't been throwing its aether everywhere, but also because its actual powers don't become clear until late in that story arc. Compared to a dragon or phoenix, where you already know what to expect from them.

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Originally Posted by Flana

Coil is also a side story and they bent themselves backwards to retcon a reason in for Phoenix to exist. SE hasn't cared about Summoner lore in years anyways, they can just throw whatever in and as long as it looks cool people will go nuts for it for another 4-5 months before realizing what a vapid mess it is once again.

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I agree coils is a side story but it’s probably the single most important side story in the game to the point that if it wasn’t a savage tier raid they would have made it compulsory by now

Coils is just the progression of legacy’s fall of dalamud storyline whos implications run parallel to the 2.0 originated MSQ

I agree that the SMN lore makes no sense for why Phoenix is a demi but I do think a distinction needs to be drawn between coils and Alexander in terms of “are they side content”

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Depends whether they started from "we're doing this; come up with a reason" or "we can justify this in lore, so let's do it".

Phoenix has a ready-made reason; the same one that they already used to allow summoners to use Dreadwyrm Trance. Alexander is harder to justify because it hasn't been throwing its aether everywhere, but also because its actual powers don't become clear until late in that story arc. Compared to a dragon or phoenix, where you already know what to expect from them.

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The major difference is that everyone knows about Bahamut, and thus the workaround makes sense. You can travel to Cartaneu regardless of your coil status and attune to the residual aether their while focusing on Bahamut's attributes in order to complete the ritual. If you didn't do coil, you have no idea Phoenix even exists. There is no way for you to attune to Phoenix's aether specifically, let alone know what attributes and abilities it even had. They literally wrote in you pulling an entire primal out of your butt with no real reasoning to accommodate a lack of coil progress.

And if you did do coil then SE just retconned the WoL into an asshole for both crapping on Luisouix's final wish that no one ever learns about Phoenix as a primal so they aren't tempted to call on it and for parading the corrupted reminder of their closest allies' beloved grandfather to do fat damage.

The whole thing was an awful idea from a story point of view but they did it anyways just for the spectacle.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Joking aside, I personally think the new SMN is genuinely a better designed class. It feels more like a SMN, and it's nice to actually rotate through all your summons rather than only seeing 3 the whole time while doing non-summony busywork like managing DoT's.

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I disagree, I think the new Summoner is bar none the worst iteration of all from a design point. It is still infested with every problem Demisummoning introduced back in Stormblood, but every shred of complexity has been torn out in a terrible attempt at mitigating those same problems. All flash, zero substance.

If its an elder primal demi egi, like Bahamut and Phoenix, Then I think either Odin, Alexander or Shinryu would be the next demi egi.

For our regular egi, my bet is on at least 2 or 3 of the remaining ARR primals. Likely Ramuh, Leviathan and Shiva. Though, I can see King Moggle Mog being converted into a GCD heal/revive summon.

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Originally Posted by Flana

The major difference is that everyone knows about Bahamut, and thus the workaround makes sense. You can travel to Cartaneu regardless of your coil status and attune to the residual aether their while focusing on Bahamut's attributes in order to complete the ritual. If you didn't do coil, you have no idea Phoenix even exists. There is no way for you to attune to Phoenix's aether specifically, let alone know what attributes and abilities it even had. They literally wrote in you pulling an entire primal out of your butt with no real reasoning to accommodate a lack of coil progress.

And if you did do coil then SE just retconned the WoL into an asshole for both crapping on Luisouix's final wish that no one ever learns about Phoenix as a primal so they aren't tempted to call on it and for parading the corrupted reminder of their closest allies' beloved grandfather to do fat damage.

The whole thing was an awful idea from a story point of view but they did it anyways just for the spectacle.

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I'll give you credit for this.

Personally, a really strong single hit with odin would be likley as a next step.

I completely forgot about Odin... personally I want Ramuh, Leviathan, Shiva, Alexander and Diabolos but yeah Odin's gotta' fit somewhere in there too.

ALEXANDER BABY. ROBOT TIME GOES BOOM!

Put some OG summon models in the Market place NOT for $50.....

That X Bahamut is still the best summon model to date.

This thread makes me realize Summoner does not have Shiva & Leviathan...which is crazy and breaks the FF tradition.

I don't think Shin was ever a summon in any game by the player......that would be neat but unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I completely forgot about Odin... personally I want Ramuh, Leviathan, Shiva, Alexander and Diabolos but yeah Odin's gotta' fit somewhere in there too.

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We were given a reason why Ramuh failed when we tried, but it's been so long ago I've quite completely forgotten.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

We were given a reason why Ramuh failed when we tried, but it's been so long ago I've quite completely forgotten.

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Basically we could only hold or attune to the aetheric signature of three primals - which is why for demis we just channel the aether from the land and by the same token get phoenix (whole of Etheirys doused in bahamut and phoenix mojo juice during the calamity)

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

Basically we could only hold or attune to the aetheric signature of three primals - which is why for demis we just channel the aether from the land and by the same token get phoenix (whole of Etheirys doused in bahamut and phoenix mojo juice during the calamity)

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Trances were the cheat because you don't manifest an extra being and instead channel the primals power through your body. This is why we got Dreadwyrm Trance back in Heavensward. Then SE forgot about that plot point and just let you summon bahamut with a nonsensical 'grand spell' from Prim in Stormblood which is never explained or even hinted at throughout the entire questline and piled phoenix on top in Shadowbringers without any context whatsoever. Man would have been nice to actually get a Summoner job quest in ShB to explain all of this with some context and not a Stormbood sidequest masquerading as a job quest instead.

Like I said before, SE hasn't cared about any of the foundational lore for Summoner in years. They just do whatever and retcon in a reason for it to exist if we even get that. To be more on topic, a new demi summon isn't likely to happen because it would create a 3-minute loop (unless it replaces bahamut or phoenix and SE will never do that), which is antithetical to their current job design. That said justice for Alexander. Giant robots and laser beams, can't go wrong with that.

Edit:
Also the above theory doesn't hold water considering we got demi-phoenix on the first and have absolutely no problem demi-summoning on the first or the thirteenth. The result of a bad retcon that muddies the water just to provide a shallow spectacle.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I mean, if any class should be vapid, SMN is the one that makes sense! In the traditional FF games summoning is generally a one button, high-MP nuke. Nothing particularly big-brain about that! ^^

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Traditional summoners also have long cast times in exchange for their field-clearing nukes. This could have translated into an interesting design with a high skill ceiling where you need to know when it's safe to stop and do a long-cast, high-damage spell and when you need to use an accelerator. Instead we got a 'physranged in a robe' job where you can't slide an index card between the skill ceiling and floor.

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Joking aside, I personally think the new SMN is genuinely a better designed class. It feels more like a SMN, and it's nice to actually rotate through all your summons rather than only seeing 3 the whole time while doing non-summony busywork like managing DoT's.

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You're still doing non-summon busywork because you're spamming magic missiles for most of your GCDs and gapclosing in to pretend you're a melee for some reason.

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Originally Posted by vetch

Traditional summoners also have long cast times in exchange for their field-clearing nukes. This could have translated into an interesting design with a high skill ceiling where you need to know when it's safe to stop and do a long-cast, high-damage spell and when you need to use an accelerator. Instead we got a 'physranged in a robe' job where you can't slide an index card between the skill ceiling and floor.



You're still doing non-summon busywork because you're spamming magic missiles for most of your GCDs and gapclosing in to pretend you're a melee for some reason.

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I never understood why they gave SMN a needless gap closer. Is not like the job turns into a Clive-Ifrit thing with a full melee phase to justify that, so the addition just seems like an arbitrary attempt to increase to the skill cap.

Other than that, I think the primal actions are actually fine (although they could've made Garuda a bit more distinct) - but the actual primal summoning should've been a 1.45 cast time. It even makes sense that in every FF iteration, the summons are usually casted.

I hope that if we indeed get a new set of primals, to alternate with the ones we have, their playstyle are more centered around cast times.

What would adding three new primals after Phoenix actually add to the job, right now the only thing that distinguishes the 3 current primals is capacity for movement (ifrit is immobile, Garuda is half half, titan is totally free motion), let’s say they added 3 new primals and decided to make them less mobile…..okay but ts not like you can control whether you summon Bahamut or Phoenix first so all you end up with is an inflexible half of your rotation that can’t be altered, if they made it more mobile then the current rotation would feel like the inflexible annoying half

Okay so let’s say that they had roughly the same mobility, okay so what’s the difference between titan and “blue titan” in terms of gameplay

SMN isn’t a good “foundation” it’s a complete class that is just terribly designed

^
Perhaps if the egi could mingle their elements together in order to create an all new effect while simultaneously allowing the SMN to summon another Egi that corresponds with said particular combinations of elements?

Example: Summon Garuda. Causes a tornado that consistently does damage for a certain period time. Then next summon Ifrit. Resets Garuda's tornado while also boosting its damage and transforming it into an inferno twister. Now you've unlocked the ability to summon their Eden fusion that causes massive damage upon its summon, so long as you do so within the remaining time limit Garuda and Ifrit's inferno twister combo lasts.

Definitely want Odin, I would like Shiva, Leviathan and Ramuh as well ... though personally having Shiva would feel weird. Though I suppose Phoenix should feel weird too.

I think it should be Diabolos or Fenrir. Maybe both.