Did Just our Star(planet) get sundered or the whole universe?

So several lore issues bother me. First, Every time the alliance random raid sends me to one of the Puppets, such as the copied factor, etc, I wonder and ask the raid, how did they get to the first and not the Source or one of the others? Can races outside our "star" choose which one to enter as they approach it from space? Second, When Midgardsiormr arrived at our star, he went to the source and talked to Hydaelyn who gave permission for the dragons to use it as refuge. Why did the dragons not encounter the first, like the puppets did, or even end up in the 13th, or some other sundered reflection? Could they choose, or did they see only one? or did they go to a reflection randomly? Could people on the Source, or the other reflections, travel to other reflections by flying out into space on a ship far enough and then back, to enter any of the other reflections? Last, Thaumaturges spells tap into the void, which has been linked to the void in the 13th. If that is the case, and the void is only in the 13th which is a reflection around our star, how does thaumaterge magic still reach into the void way back on the 13th from way out across the universe in Ultima thule?

Okay, answering the questions basically in order. Some of these will cover the same answers.

• Just the planet we're on got sundered. Also the moon, probably, when exactly the moon started existing is still an open question, but the shards definitely have their own moons.
• It isn't completely clear how the Nier raid people got to the First, but the Seeds of Destruction (and I believe the Ark) can cross dimensions so it might be a 'them' thing rather than something anyone can just do.
• No plausible examples to figure out if/how someone gets to a shard via external travel rather than the Source.
• Midgardsormr just got to the Source; no idea why he didn't hit any other shard, but nothing really suggests that he did anything special, so the Source is probably the 'default'.
• We probably can't do shard travel by doing a return space trip, but that's on Y'shtola to figure out.
• Thaumaturge spells do not tap into the void. Neither do Black Mage spells. Thaumaturges use internal aether and black mages use the aether of the world around them, so both of them work just fine as far as results go no matter where we are, although if you wanted to get really, really fiddly on how aether works, there might be other story there. (The writers will not get that fiddly on how aether works.)
• How everything works in Ultima Thule is a separate interesting question, because it's basically a space that isn't made out of conventional matter and energy. The best we can reckon, everything there is made of and powered by dynamis (and given a bit of Thancred-help to take interactable form), so all forms of combat work just fine with it. But the Reaper's Avatar is making one hell of a trip to get there.

If the explanation that we had in Shadowbringers was correct, then sundering doesn't influence the physical realm directly (i.e. 'the flesh'). I wonder if what was directly split was Etheirys' soul, namely the lifestream, which in turn resulted in the division of all souls connected with it. It might just be that the shards all occupy the same coordinates in the 'physical domain', but are separated in the 'spiritual domain'.

On the magical front, I'm still not quite sure which effects are actually 'Aether' and which are 'Akasha'. Most entities in the Void are aether starved, which makes me wonder why you would call on them specifically to expend their Aether on your behalf. Unless there's different power source behind their magic, of course.

Regarding the dragons, there is Vrtra's answer to Y'shtola's question about the Final Days, in which he says Midgardsormr "alighted upon a shattered Source, its 13 reflections long since scattered beyond the Rift". It may be that Midgardsormr could at least see that the Source had been sundered, or perhaps he only knew because Hydaelyn told him. In any case, it seems only the Source was there for him to land on.

Reading this post made me realize that The First's night sky is full of stars...and presuming that the stars in the sky in FF14 are "planets" (or even actual stars, which I don't believe there's a term for in FF14 since star = planet) that would suggest that the shards are able to see these other stars, which suggests they are in some way in the same space. Alternatively, it would suggest that the shards have been pushed into other spaces with their own galaxies of stars...which seems far less likely.

I'm guessing someone with more FF14 star lore expertise can speak more definitively on this!

Sidenote: I wonder if anyone has compared the positioning of stars in the night sky in the Source to those of the night sky in The First?

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Reading this post made me realize that The First's night sky is full of stars...and presuming that the stars in the sky in FF14 are "planets" (or even actual stars, which I don't believe there's a term for in FF14 since star = planet)

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In FFXIV, stars are called stars and planets are also called stars.

I think it's a "poetic" use of the word in combination with the fact that in Japanese "hoshi" can mean both. Sometimes in English planets are called stars like how Venus was the "morning/evening star" and other cultures referred to the planets as stars as well. "Planet" comes from the Greek "wanderer" since the planets were described as "wandering stars".

Otherwise I think it was established that the First and the rest of the shards are shunted off into a side dimension and can't be accessed from space but can view it and that the Sundering was a local event, not universe-wide.

I figure the Shards share the same physical space as the Source, but are out of phase dimensionally.
So they see the same night sky as the Source does, but I think some weird stuff might happen if they actually tried to travel out into space.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Okay, answering the questions basically in order. Some of these will cover the same answers.

• Just the planet we're on got sundered. Also the moon, probably, when exactly the moon started existing is still an open question, but the shards definitely have their own moons.
• It isn't completely clear how the Nier raid people got to the First, but the Seeds of Destruction (and I believe the Ark) can cross dimensions so it might be a 'them' thing rather than something anyone can just do.
• No plausible examples to figure out if/how someone gets to a shard via external travel rather than the Source.
• Midgardsormr just got to the Source; no idea why he didn't hit any other shard, but nothing really suggests that he did anything special, so the Source is probably the 'default'.
• We probably can't do shard travel by doing a return space trip, but that's on Y'shtola to figure out.
• Thaumaturge spells do not tap into the void. Neither do Black Mage spells. Thaumaturges use internal aether and black mages use the aether of the world around them, so both of them work just fine as far as results go no matter where we are, although if you wanted to get really, really fiddly on how aether works, there might be other story there. (The writers will not get that fiddly on how aether works.)
• How everything works in Ultima Thule is a separate interesting question, because it's basically a space that isn't made out of conventional matter and energy. The best we can reckon, everything there is made of and powered by dynamis (and given a bit of Thancred-help to take interactable form), so all forms of combat work just fine with it. But the Reaper's Avatar is making one hell of a trip to get there.

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Hydaelyn created the moon specifically as a prison for Zodiark. I'm guessing this planet just didn't have a moon at all.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Hydaelyn created the moon specifically as a prison for Zodiark. I'm guessing this planet just didn't have a moon at all.

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As Cleretic said, it's up in the air. Figuratively that is, although also literally. Could be that the moon was created at the moment Zodiark was sundered and then simultaneously sundered itself, could be some other order of operations.

Additionally, it's worth noting that the moon can be seen in Elpis pre-sundering. There has been plenty of time to correct this obvious issue if it was indeed a bug, which may suggest that it's intended.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

As Cleretic said, it's up in the air. Figuratively that is, although also literally. Could be that the moon was created at the moment Zodiark was sundered and then simultaneously sundered itself, could be some other order of operations.

Additionally, it's worth noting that the moon can be seen in Elpis pre-sundering. There has been plenty of time to correct this obvious issue if it was indeed a bug, which may suggest that it's intended.

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It's only seen in basically the rarest time/weather condition in Elpis, and not especially clear even then, so I could see it just being that they missed a spot.

'Creating the moon to serve as a prison/escape pod' and 'repurposing the moon to serve as a prison/escape pod' are pretty much equally insane concepts, so both options are still pretty huge.

I would like to thank you all for your comments, and make the following replies:

I do not think that Hydaelyn created the moon. I believe the Ascians were already using it to house Zodiac, who was already complete before the sundering. Hydaelyn sundered the moon as well as the planet, and after the sundering and installing Zodiark's seal, probably on all reflections, but only installed the Lopperits and the Watcher on the moon of the source, as far as we know. I do not think it was a bug showing the moon in the Unsundered Elpis.

But my point it that we do know the universe can be seen by both the first and the source, and there were many space faring races some of them who came to the source(Midgardsiormr, Omega. the Mandervelians) and at least 1 on the first( Puppets). And the stars in the sky were a big issue in the story on the first. So if the universe was NOT sundered, then the stars are the same ones seen on the souce for all reflections. And if ships were built on the 1st, or the second, etc, up to the 13th, to leave the sundered area of space around our star, they should be able to meet us up there beyond the moon. If Midgardsiormr could detect the sundering as he neared the star other races could also, such as the puppets. I wonder why they would have chosen to go to the first..and not the source...and why meteion's song did not affect them. Perhaps other alien races have indeed landed in the other reflections and we just don't know them yet.

But regardless, if other races can get into the reflections, the people in them should be able to fly out into the common area of space and meet us, or go back to other reflections or back to thier original one, just like we can to Ultima thule...although having the same ship in both places is also sort of odd too. Perhaps Hydaelyn did that to actually prevent the flight of the ship back due to the possibility of slipping into the other reflections.

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Originally Posted by SilverArrow20XX

I figure the Shards share the same physical space as the Source, but are out of phase dimensionally.
So they see the same night sky as the Source does, but I think some weird stuff might happen if they actually tried to travel out into space.

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This is how I see it, too. There's a localized multiverse envelope around the planet and its moon, where there are 14 versions of that section of space in the same spot, but on different atomic vibrational frequencies; ie they're "out of phase" with one another. They all see the same light from outside the envelope (due to some property of the envelope itself),but if people not on the same frequency as the stuff outside tries to move out of the envelope, there'd be problems.

Either they just couldn't do it without breaking the envelope; or they could, but they'd end up in the Source's space, with no simple way to get back to their shard. Or maybe they'd end up in real space, but still out of phase, and therefore invisible and intangible. And logically that'd require everything out of phase from their pov to be invisible/intangible to them, too. At least they might be able to see and return to their shard in that scenario, though.

But yeah, I can only imagine the weird issues other shard civilizations have dealt with if they're advanced enough for spaceflight, like Allag or Sharlayan.

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Originally Posted by Enphilistor

I would like to thank you all for your comments, and make the following replies:

I do not think that Hydaelyn created the moon. I believe the Ascians were already using it to house Zodiac, who was already complete before the sundering. Hydaelyn sundered the moon as well as the planet, and after the sundering and installing Zodiark's seal, probably on all reflections, but only installed the Lopperits and the Watcher on the moon of the source, as far as we know. I do not think it was a bug showing the moon in the Unsundered Elpis.

But my point it that we do know the universe can be seen by both the first and the source, and there were many space faring races some of them who came to the source(Midgardsiormr, Omega. the Mandervelians) and at least 1 on the first( Puppets). And the stars in the sky were a big issue in the story on the first. So if the universe was NOT sundered, then the stars are the same ones seen on the souce for all reflections. And if ships were built on the 1st, or the second, etc, up to the 13th, to leave the sundered area of space around our star, they should be able to meet us up there beyond the moon. If Midgardsiormr could detect the sundering as he neared the star other races could also, such as the puppets. I wonder why they would have chosen to go to the first..and not the source...and why meteion's song did not affect them. Perhaps other alien races have indeed landed in the other reflections and we just don't know them yet.

But regardless, if other races can get into the reflections, the people in them should be able to fly out into the common area of space and meet us, or go back to other reflections or back to thier original one, just like we can to Ultima thule...although having the same ship in both places is also sort of odd too. Perhaps Hydaelyn did that to actually prevent the flight of the ship back due to the possibility of slipping into the other reflections.

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Nah, cause in one of the stories it says they were standing around arguing when Elidibus stepped out of Zodiark's chest, so it sounds like he was with them on the star. As for your original question, I think the other shards are out of phase with the universe which is why the evacuation of them wouldn't be possible.

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Originally Posted by SilverArrow20XX

I figure the Shards share the same physical space as the Source, but are out of phase dimensionally.
So they see the same night sky as the Source does, but I think some weird stuff might happen if they actually tried to travel out into space.

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It's this exactly.

Hasn't it been long established that the only way to travel between shards is to give up your flesh? Isn't that how Ardbert and his crew got to the Source to begin with, and how the Scions got to the First? Their souls were "called" but their bodies were still on the Source. Also, we just had a quest where we had to take Zero's soul to the First using a spirit vessel.

You can't just fly a spaceship to a different reflection because it's not a conventional solar system. It's more like a multiverse. If it were that simple Y'shtola would have been gone a long time ago.

Utlima Thule was not a different dimension. It was the edge of the universe. So you can actually fly to it if you have enough energy to reach it.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Okay, answering the questions basically in order. Some of these will cover the same answers.

• when exactly the moon started existing is still an open question

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https://media0.giphy.com/media/UvtKiyeWYEhRC/giphy.gif

me realizing that the moon is sundered even though they say hydaelyn built the moon to escape the final days

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Originally Posted by Enphilistor

I would like to thank you all for your comments, and make the following replies:

I do not think that Hydaelyn created the moon. I believe the Ascians were already using it to house Zodiac, who was already complete before the sundering. Hydaelyn sundered the moon as well as the planet, and after the sundering and installing Zodiark's seal, probably on all reflections, but only installed the Lopperits and the Watcher on the moon of the source, as far as we know.

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It looks like it was addressed in the MSQ after you made this point, but it's worth pointing out: It's mentioned that the Flood of Darkness on the 13th happened after Durante killed the Watcher there, so it's likely that every reflection has it's own Watcher. You're probably right on the Loporrits though.

all of the sundered planets occupy the same space just in different dementions right? almost wish they would of made the just occupy different places in the orbit of the sources star for plot convince at least, but that kinda makes us bridging the gap to the first+ less impactful, even tho ex-machina void gates already made a 100 year long scientific journey redundant to some extent..

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

all of the sundered planets occupy the same space just in different dementions right? almost wish they would of made the just occupy different places in the orbit of the sources star for plot convince at least, but that kinda makes us bridging the gap to the first+ less impactful, even tho ex-machina void gates already made a 100 year long scientific journey redundant to some extent..

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If they were in the same dimension but separated by space that would cause more story issues because the people on the Source figured out how to launch orbits into space 7,000 years ago. If we could look at the sky and see 13 other populated worlds, we would have been traveling back and forth between them a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

If they were in the same dimension but separated by space that would cause more story issues because the people on the Source figured out how to launch orbits into space 7,000 years ago. If we could look at the sky and see 13 other populated worlds, we would have been traveling back and forth between them a long time ago.

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you raise a good point, im just worried that we raised to many plot holes creating a multiverse plain that exists but only in one singular position in a otherwise static space, it just seems like a situation of creating an answer with more problems that the initial problem it was meant to solve had, especially with the added lore that time flows differently in said spaces..
heck travel to all shards should be solved by going to the void and summoning ourselves there via a rift that i assume exist from void to every shard (assumed)
and also the ideal of a rejoining, our characters is like 7 out of 14 right? why have we not gotten bigger or more ancient like? would that not infer that a full rejoining would of done nothing? sure our souls might of been made hole, but they would be made hole to the image of the current source i assume, granted i guess they meant to use the reality stone, i men Zodiark to glam the world back to their image of it?
srry starting to tangent there, just it feels like a domino set of problems that only create more problems for the writers as they explain it, or they never touch it again to the detriment of the lore...
but heck maybe i dont give them enough credit, its is fantasy, they can literally just make a giant cosmic whale that can explain it all in Morgan Freeman's voice after all hehe

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Originally Posted by totalimmortal

https://media0.giphy.com/media/UvtKiyeWYEhRC/giphy.gif

me realizing that the moon is sundered even though they say hydaelyn built the moon to escape the final days

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Is there actual evidence that someone said that? I'm being serious, because to my knowledge it's just that the first time the moon is brought up in terms of the in-universe chronology is Hydaelyn's Moon Plan, and we generally took it to mean that she created it. The game itself is kind of cheekily evasive about it; neither of the Amaurot skyboxes in the Shadowbringers dungeon have a visible moon, and while there technically is a visible moon in Elpis, it's barely visible only in a very specific weather/time combo so that might not even be intentional.

Like I said on the first page, it almost doesn't matter; repurposing the moon as a prison/spaceship is about the same level of impressive as purpose-building it as one. But we don't really know, and none of the evidence is necessarily a gotcha either way.

Uniting theory: Venat invented the moon previously, then repurposed it later.

*adjusts tinfoil hat*

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

you raise a good point, im just worried that we raised to many plot holes creating a multiverse plain that exists but only in one singular position in a otherwise static space, it just seems like a situation of creating an answer with more problems that the initial problem it was meant to solve had, especially with the added lore that time flows differently in said spaces..
heck travel to all shards should be solved by going to the void and summoning ourselves there via a rift that i assume exist from void to every shard (assumed)
and also the ideal of a rejoining, our characters is like 7 out of 14 right? why have we not gotten bigger or more ancient like? would that not infer that a full rejoining would of done nothing? sure our souls might of been made hole, but they would be made hole to the image of the current source i assume, granted i guess they meant to use the reality stone, i men Zodiark to glam the world back to their image of it?
srry starting to tangent there, just it feels like a domino set of problems that only create more problems for the writers as they explain it, or they never touch it again to the detriment of the lore...
but heck maybe i dont give them enough credit, its is fantasy, they can literally just make a giant cosmic whale that can explain it all in Morgan Freeman's voice after all hehe

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We're 8 times rejoined so we are 9/14s. And we did get a little more Ancient-ish. Or do you not remember both Emet Selch and Elidibus seeing us as one for a fee seconds. Also each moon we are told had its own purpose. The only thing we know that each has or had was a copy of the Watcher and a part of Zodiark. We would have to open up void gates to the other shards from the 13th if we wanted to fully rejoin ourselves. Yet the only place that seems to be easy to make one to is the source. As they had to do some selective breeding to even get to the point where you needed two people to open a small portal. Think of it in Stargate terms. Each shard has its own address. If you don't know what the address is then you most likely won't be able to open a gate to any of the remaining shards. Then there is the whole problem of how much energy do you need to open up a gate/portal/rift that you could have something bigger than an imp to squeeze through.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

you raise a good point, im just worried that we raised to many plot holes creating a multiverse plain that exists but only in one singular position in a otherwise static space, it just seems like a situation of creating an answer with more problems that the initial problem it was meant to solve had, especially with the added lore that time flows differently in said spaces..
heck travel to all shards should be solved by going to the void and summoning ourselves there via a rift that i assume exist from void to every shard (assumed)
and also the ideal of a rejoining, our characters is like 7 out of 14 right? why have we not gotten bigger or more ancient like? would that not infer that a full rejoining would of done nothing? sure our souls might of been made hole, but they would be made hole to the image of the current source i assume, granted i guess they meant to use the reality stone, i men Zodiark to glam the world back to their image of it?
srry starting to tangent there, just it feels like a domino set of problems that only create more problems for the writers as they explain it, or they never touch it again to the detriment of the lore...
but heck maybe i dont give them enough credit, its is fantasy, they can literally just make a giant cosmic whale that can explain it all in Morgan Freeman's voice after all hehe

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Having all the shards in the same dimension does not resolve any of the issues you're bringing up. How would attempting to summon shards of our soul solve travel between the rift? We have no soulsight, how would we even know if we've summoned a shard of our soul? And what if those shards have families and lives of their own and don't want to be sucked up by us so we can get a power boost? Also, given we've been told 75% of the Ancient population whose unsundered souls have returned to the lifestream will have no impact on the game except maybe they'd be born with bigger manapools, it seems absorbing 6 innocent people wouldn't be that impressive of a powerboost. Plus Ran'jit who was at 1/14th spent half of Shadowbringers curb stomping the crew who were all at 8/14ths.

While there are some plotholes surrounding the Sundering and Rejoinings, none of them are fixed by making the shards reachable by traveling through space.

I like the theory that Etheirys did have a moon prior to the Final Days, but it got destroyed during the apocalypse, and Venat made a new one to imprison Zodiark. It kinda lines things up and adds to destructiveness of Final Days.

After seeing Solution 9, I believe that the people of Solution 9 are ancients who were saved by Azem and Azem's solution was to take them to space outside of Venat's sundering range. They returned to the source to settle at Solution 9 as a homecoming.

Which means, only our star gets sundered.