Did they mix up the caster classes at launch or something?

So I noticed something and I THINK someone mistranslated alot of stuff at launch. mainly the magic classes.

Thaumaturge turns into black mage a damage class however the act of thaumaturgy is defined as follows "Thaumaturgy is the purported capability of a magician to work magic or other paranormal events or a saint to perform miracles. It is sometimes translated into English as wonderworking." (source is wikipedia) So it has more to do with healing and saving people like...idk A WHITE MAGE

Conjurer turns into white mage however...the definition of the word is "a person who conjures." and to conjure means "call upon (a spirit or ghost) to appear, by means of a magic ritual.
"they hoped to conjure up the spirit of their dead friend" and you know what....THAT SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING A SUMMONER MAY DO!

and lastly arcanist who turns into summoner and a arcanist is define as "A person who studies arcana or religious mysteries."...THAT SOUNDS ALOT LIKE WHAT THE THAMATURGE DOES DURING THERE STORY AND WHEN THEY TURN INTO BLACK MAGE! also the symbols feel more black mage as well, the arcane globe and then the BLACK MAGE HAT (you can try to tell me summoner symbol is a horn but that is a black mage hat, and the black mage symbol is a meteor but meteor magic in the final fantasy game has been very strongly accosted with summoning magic thanks to FF7 with the last boss having a summon spell that he does in the last fight)

so yeah it just sound and feels like they got the words for these 3 classes all mixed up to me and it irks me a little bit and I know some people will laugh this off but some people will never be able to un hear this lol
Ill add to it two: why are ninjas and samurais resented by round blades when dancers use round blades but NOPE they get a spade witch makes it feel like they should be playing cards XD

That's because of those classes originated in FFXIV version 1.0 that is now shut down with different lore and different mechanics (THM was about casting darkness and light elemental spells along with casting negative status as well as drain healing; CNJ was more closer to RDM in that had all elemental spells under it's tookit along with healing spells like Cure and Protect... and ACN... actually was never available, being dummied out but mechanically completely different to how it appeared eventually in ARR, apparently using a mechanical staff and dropping magical traps in battle.).

When Yoshi took over FFXIV's development though and decided to replace 1.0 with ARR, things changed, starting with the introduction of Jobs which piggybacked off the original classes, and so those classes had to be redesigned to be a better fit for their Jobs (CNJ was made to be more a healer for WHM and so lost the fire, ice and lightning spells to THM, THM was radically altered losing it's negative statuses along with the drain healing, and became more a 'fire and ice wizard', with the only legacy of it's dark/light aspect remaining as an aspect shift mechanic when spellcasting, and ACN's introduction became a pseudo evoker gaining THM's debuffs while also summoning Carbuncle so as to be a fit for SMN and it's complete mirror SCH).

And the nomenclature is connected to this - as the original classes were basically just a name connected to a set of abilities and a weapon, the names didn't necessarily have to directly reference what they mean in real life, and there is still some connection if you actually read the lore (Conjury for instance involves the interaction of the fairy-like elementals behind the scenes to borrow aether from the surrounding evironment to work in the required spell, you don't actually see the elemental but they're there, so you're basically 'conjuring' the elemental's power).

you see I have a saying: if it looks and quacks like a duck then its a duck, and the simplest explanation is that early FF14 before ARR was a MESS and the people doing the translations into Japanese mixed up some names and maybe even symbols to the name. also when you described the conjurer class....you described the scholar class witch actually USE FAIRIES and scholar class comes from arcanist WITCH should have the name conjurer because you know....they conjure things.

the more I think about it the more it makes sense lol summoners should have the meteor because of its strong connection with summoning magic, black mage should get they hat because in many many MANY final fantasy games they are defined by there big ass wizard/witch hats! SUMMONERS DON'T EVEN WEAR HATS AND THERE SYMBOL IS A HAT!

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Originally Posted by Highelfwarlock

SUMMONERS DON'T EVEN WEAR HATS AND THERE SYMBOL IS A HAT!

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That's a horn, though. It's a SMN staple like in FFIX.

na that is totally a hat, its a thick pointy bit with a hat rim pointed up like a black mage hat! not a thin pointy bit coming out of a round object

In Japanese all the class names are kinda like "____ user". Gladiator is "sword user", Marauder is "axe user", etc. Thaumaturge is like "spell user" and Conjurer is like "illusion user".

Basically the localization team had to make something out of nothing, and at that time nobody knew we'd ever even get real FF jobs, let alone which class would be which job.

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Originally Posted by Highelfwarlock

na that is totally a hat, its a thick pointy bit with a hat rim pointed up like a black mage hat! not a thin pointy bit coming out of a round object

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Yeah... no. But choose whatever you want to believe. Don't let me (or every AF gear with its horn) stop you. Godspeed, soldier.

Putting words in RANDOM CAPS makes you sound like a shouty conspiracy theorist.

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to conjure means "call upon (a spirit or ghost) to appear, by means of a magic ritual.

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That is exactly what a conjurer does in FFXIV. Do the quests, they are calling upon the spirits of the forest to use magic.

Just to re: class names/Japanese

There is a lot of fast-and-loose when it comes to translation. Like, there was a time when names of magic-users in fiction where just grabbed for what sounded good. Unfortunately a lot of decisions in translation came about during this time which aren't...really...good.

SE does a pretty good job looking at options and translating into what makes sense or making sure the spirit of the meaning translates rather than actual word-for-word literally translation.

Eg: Conjurer

Conjurer's Japanese counterpart, for example, does translate to "Illusionist" in a dictionary, but that's not REALLY the intent of the Japanese so much as it is an artifact of an old translation system.

The kanji, 幻術士, means:
- "Phantom/Ghost"
- "Art (as in martial arts or magic arts)"
- "User";

Combined, this is what we would probably translate to "Spirit-Mage", which is literally what it is. Conjurer is the closest thing we have to that...but it's more like a Shinto-Exorcist than it is a person who controls spirits.

Heck, historically speaking the word 幻術 ("Phantom Art") often just translates to Magic, Witchcraft, Sorcery, Conjuring.

幻 ("Phantom") can also mean "Vision" or "Dream".

I wouldn't try to read too deeply into it. The job names somehow still make way more sense than a lot of ability names. I will never understand why WHM has a healing ability called Tetragrammaton.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I wouldn't try to read too deeply into it. The job names somehow still make way more sense than a lot of ability names. I will never understand why WHM has a healing ability called Tetragrammaton.

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Likely because of the “holy” theme.

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Originally Posted by Highelfwarlock

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Did Yoshida "mix up" THM? No. Did he not give a damn about its then-established lore? Yes. Even back then, for him, lore and ambition were no substitute for simple, easy, hackneyed tried-and-true solutions.

Pre-Yoshida Thaumaturge was a Priest using the Astral, Umbral, Blood, Poison, Sonic, and Gravity elements. It sacrificed its own HP to transfer a greater amount over time to allies, decently powerful offensive-related buffs for allies that would indirectly provide sustain, a versatile slew of suppressive or rDPS-increasing debuffs and CC for enemies, and had counter-attacks that it could place on anyone atop and traits by which to generate resource from attacks done to it. It could even steal and transfer stats themselves. It was a beast. Had it been polished, I'd likely be maining it.

Yoshida effectively said "This has more than 5 actions and isn't a standard FF franchise job; players aren't smart enough for this, so we'll just turn it into a stepping stone for a simple take on BLM instead," which he then for the time turned into a combo class that just repeated Ice, Thunder, or Fire combos insofar as one was able (since all but the openers had CDs, so you'd be stuck going 123-1-12-1-123, etc.).

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I wouldn't try to read too deeply into it. The job names somehow still make way more sense than a lot of ability names. I will never understand why WHM has a healing ability called Tetragrammaton.

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Tetragrammaton - A (divine/paranormal/supernatural) word or name of 4 characters. E.g., YHWH -> Yahweh.

The base class was Conjurer, one who calls upon (a person, a force, etc.) by knowing its ("true") name, nature, or (innate) laws/properties (its nomos).

While CNJs/WHMs are more animist rather than suitheistic, Tetragrammaton makes plenty of sense as a name for a burst heal. The "name" can as easily apply to that of life as a whole.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Combined, this is what we would probably translate to "Spirit-Mage", which is literally what it is. Conjurer is the closest thing we have to that...but it's more like a Shinto-Exorcist than it is a person who controls spirits.

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Keep in mind that an art using spirit(s) doesn't have to do so by directly or forcefully controlling them. Heck, that occurs neither in Shinto/Daoist nor in Western druidic lore. In XIV, the (elemental) spirits are a manifestation of a fundamental layer of reality (of "spirit" [non-countable]).

A further note, piggy-backing:

The core difference between 呪術士 (Thaumaturge) and 幻術士 (Conjurer) is right in that prefix, though each isn't... super easily translated without context or the sort of cultural 'vibe' attachments to either term.

That 幻 in 幻術士 can refer to the 'fantastic' or 'magical'... but also to something underlying, fundamental (beneath what is immediately visible)... or to a more obvious analog here in XIV: (the) spirits. The elementals in XIV... are "spirits", as Japanese would classify them.

Now, for 呪術士. 呪 as a bound sememe can be translated as magic or curse, but also as a dharmi or mantra. 呪文 - a spell or 'mystical'/'holy'/'ritual' word or mantra [of power]. 呪術 - magic or sorcery, yes, but via an incantation, such as through prayer.

In nearly any case, 呪 has the power to do evil, but is also something at once internal and collective, ritualistic, and seemingly given power through belief or one's inner world ("manifestation", if you will... /shudder). It's the more human(oid cultures') analog to that more naturalistic one.

Given that, Conjurer and Thaumaturge really were pretty damn fine translations... before the classes were changed into something completely different (THM, especially) when Yoshida took over around 1.7.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tetragrammaton - A (divine/paranormal/supernatural) word or name of 4 characters. E.g., YHWH -> Yahweh.

The base class was Conjurer, one who calls upon (a person, a force, etc.) by knowing its ("true") name, nature, or (innate) laws/properties (its nomos).

While CNJs/WHMs are more animist rather than suitheistic, Tetragrammaton makes plenty of sense as a name for a burst heal. The "name" can as easily apply to that of life as a whole.



Keep in mind that an art using spirit(s) doesn't have to do so by directly or forcefully controlling them. Heck, that occurs neither in Shinto/Daoist nor in Western druidic lore. In XIV, the (elemental) spirits are a manifestation of a fundamental layer of reality (of "spirit" [non-countable]).

A further note, piggy-backing:

The core difference between 呪術士 (Thaumaturge) and 幻術士 (Conjurer) is right in that prefix, though each isn't... super easily translated without context or the sort of cultural 'vibe' attachments to either term.

That 幻 in 幻術士 can refer to the 'fantastic' or 'magical'... but also to something underlying, fundamental (beneath what is immediately visible)... or to a more obvious analog here in XIV: (the) spirits. The elementals in XIV... are "spirits", as Japanese would classify them.

Now, for 呪術士. 呪 as a bound sememe can be translated as magic or curse, but also as a dharmi or mantra. 呪文 - a spell or 'mystical'/'holy'/'ritual' word or mantra [of power]. 呪術 - magic or sorcery, yes, but via an incantation, such as through prayer.

In nearly any case, 呪 has the power to do evil, but is also something at once internal and collective, ritualistic, and seemingly given power through belief or one's inner world ("manifestation", if you will... /shudder). It's the more human(oid cultures') analog to that more naturalistic one.

Given that, Conjurer and Thaumaturge really were pretty damn fine translations... before the classes were changed into something completely different (THM, especially) when Yoshida took over around 1.7.

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All good info guys, if anyone wanted to know more on how SE translation works.
https://media.wired.com/photos/59336...bowskytumb.jpg

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Originally Posted by Highelfwarlock

So I noticed something and I THINK someone mistranslated alot of stuff at launch. mainly the magic classes.

Thaumaturge turns into black mage a damage class however the act of thaumaturgy is defined as follows "Thaumaturgy is the purported capability of a magician to work magic or other paranormal events or a saint to perform miracles. It is sometimes translated into English as wonderworking." (source is wikipedia) So it has more to do with healing and saving people like...idk A WHITE MAGE

Conjurer turns into white mage however...the definition of the word is "a person who conjures." and to conjure means "call upon (a spirit or ghost) to appear, by means of a magic ritual.
"they hoped to conjure up the spirit of their dead friend" and you know what....THAT SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING A SUMMONER MAY DO!

and lastly arcanist who turns into summoner and a arcanist is define as "A person who studies arcana or religious mysteries."...THAT SOUNDS ALOT LIKE WHAT THE THAMATURGE DOES DURING THERE STORY AND WHEN THEY TURN INTO BLACK MAGE! also the symbols feel more black mage as well, the arcane globe and then the BLACK MAGE HAT (you can try to tell me summoner symbol is a horn but that is a black mage hat, and the black mage symbol is a meteor but meteor magic in the final fantasy game has been very strongly accosted with summoning magic thanks to FF7 with the last boss having a summon spell that he does in the last fight)

so yeah it just sound and feels like they got the words for these 3 classes all mixed up to me and it irks me a little bit and I know some people will laugh this off but some people will never be able to un hear this lol
Ill add to it two: why are ninjas and samurais resented by round blades when dancers use round blades but NOPE they get a spade witch makes it feel like they should be playing cards XD

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No; they just reworked a bunch of things to create the ultimate Eastern WoW experience.

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Originally Posted by Highelfwarlock

the more I think about it the more it makes sense lol summoners should have the meteor because of its strong connection with summoning magic, black mage should get they hat because in many many MANY final fantasy games they are defined by there big ass wizard/witch hats! SUMMONERS DON'T EVEN WEAR HATS AND THERE SYMBOL IS A HAT!

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The SMN icon is a horn not a hat. Meteor has no connection to summoner in the series whatsoever, not even in ff7 where it’s described as the ultimate offensive spell cast by using the BLACK materia… The XIV BLM LB3 is meteor, this used to be a generic LB for all casters but now it belongs exclusively to BLM.

Thaumaturge is a weak name because it’s a relic from a bygone era and got massively reworked to be a stepping stone for BLM. There is nothing wrong with conjurer (a job using the elementals to borrow power) and arcanist is just using their own made up magic type called arcanima which is basically magic math.

So yes thaumaturge got the short end of the stick because it’s a class you’re supposed to use up to level 30 then forget about it. The rest is just you drawing connections where there are none.

no conjurers actually summon the sprits into the world and they do a single summon or have a single summon spell, they have healing magic witch has never been summoning magic...though there is summon magic that heals like unicorn and phoenix

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Originally Posted by Highelfwarlock

So I noticed something and I THINK someone mistranslated alot of stuff at launch. mainly the magic classes.

Thaumaturge turns into black mage a damage class however the act of thaumaturgy is defined as follows "Thaumaturgy is the purported capability of a magician to work magic or other paranormal events or a saint to perform miracles. It is sometimes translated into English as wonderworking." (source is wikipedia) So it has more to do with healing and saving people like...idk A WHITE MAGE

Conjurer turns into white mage however...the definition of the word is "a person who conjures." and to conjure means "call upon (a spirit or ghost) to appear, by means of a magic ritual.
"they hoped to conjure up the spirit of their dead friend" and you know what....THAT SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING A SUMMONER MAY DO!

and lastly arcanist who turns into summoner and a arcanist is define as "A person who studies arcana or religious mysteries."...THAT SOUNDS ALOT LIKE WHAT THE THAMATURGE DOES DURING THERE STORY AND WHEN THEY TURN INTO BLACK MAGE! also the symbols feel more black mage as well, the arcane globe and then the BLACK MAGE HAT (you can try to tell me summoner symbol is a horn but that is a black mage hat, and the black mage symbol is a meteor but meteor magic in the final fantasy game has been very strongly accosted with summoning magic thanks to FF7 with the last boss having a summon spell that he does in the last fight)

so yeah it just sound and feels like they got the words for these 3 classes all mixed up to me and it irks me a little bit and I know some people will laugh this off but some people will never be able to un hear this lol
Ill add to it two: why are ninjas and samurais resented by round blades when dancers use round blades but NOPE they get a spade witch makes it feel like they should be playing cards XD

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In the german version the conjurer is called druid... which makes alot more sense imo

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

In the german version the conjurer is called druid... which makes alot more sense imo

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I mean... not really?

Druid (from Celtic draoidh - roughly "true/truth know-er") historically just referred to a(ny) magician/sorcerer/witch/warlock/etc.

It'd be a more vague term than even Conjurer if not for it DnD just happening to use Mage (wisdom / wise-person / sage / seer) as the generic word for a magic-user and then an almost identical term for magic user ("true knower") to instead be somehow restricted to nature-based magics.

A conjurer is one who calls (jur) forces/aspects together (con-) or does/forms something from their being put together, be that from between multiple worlds (the 'real' world and hell, for instance, wherein they'd be demon-summoners) or multiple layers of the same world (the manifest and the underlying, the material and the elemental, etc.).

Just because DnD decided, rather arbitrarily, to make Conjury refer only to the creation of new units, and then split the otherwise identical meaning Voke into offensive (Evocation) and self-buffing (Invocation) spells, doesn't mean all further references are beholden to that.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I mean... not really?

Druid (from Celtic draoidh - roughly "true/truth know-er") historically just referred to a(ny) magician/sorcerer/witch/warlock/etc.

It'd be a more vague term than even Conjurer if not for it DnD just happening to use Mage (wisdom / wise-person / sage / seer) as the generic word for a magic-user and then an almost identical term for magic user ("true knower") to instead be somehow restricted to nature-based magics.

A conjurer is one who calls (jur) forces/aspects together (con-) or does/forms something from their being put together, be that from between multiple worlds (the 'real' world and hell, for instance, wherein they'd be demon-summoners) or multiple layers of the same world (the manifest and the underlying, the material and the elemental, etc.).

Just because DnD decided, rather arbitrarily, to make Conjury refer only to the creation of new units, and then split the otherwise identical meaning Voke into offensive (Evocation) and self-buffing (Invocation) spells, doesn't mean all further references are beholden to that.

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When a german hears the term "Druid" they imagine this (french) guy, not some DnD stuff.

https://external-content.duckduckgo....5e0&ipo=images

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I mean... not really?

Druid (from Celtic draoidh - roughly "true/truth know-er") historically just referred to a(ny) magician/sorcerer/witch/warlock/etc.

It'd be a more vague term than even Conjurer if not for it DnD just happening to use Mage (wisdom / wise-person / sage / seer) as the generic word for a magic-user and then an almost identical term for magic user ("true knower") to instead be somehow restricted to nature-based magics.

A conjurer is one who calls (jur) forces/aspects together (con-) or does/forms something from their being put together, be that from between multiple worlds (the 'real' world and hell, for instance, wherein they'd be demon-summoners) or multiple layers of the same world (the manifest and the underlying, the material and the elemental, etc.).

Just because DnD decided, rather arbitrarily, to make Conjury refer only to the creation of new units, and then split the otherwise identical meaning Voke into offensive (Evocation) and self-buffing (Invocation) spells, doesn't mean all further references are beholden to that.

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In the MMO space, Druid is usually seen as nature-bound caster, often a healer or with utility (everquest, wow for example)

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Originally Posted by Tint

When a german hears the term "Druid" they imagine this (french) guy, not some DnD stuff.

https://external-content.duckduckgo....5e0&ipo=images

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And yet the DnD take that was in turn used in EQ and WoW was exactly what Shinkuno was referring to, as if the German impression of a "Druid" were identical to a post-WoW English impression of the word.