I've tried bringing this conversation up in another thread, but trying to force someone to engage with this conversation who isn't interested in it is foolish of me, and not very helpful, so I wanted to throw this up as a separate thread in case anyone else wants to share there thoughts on this concept, suggest their own adjustments, or gets any ideas from it that they want to share.
Basically, this idea spun from a request to design a White Mage to feel closer to Paladin in a sense, but not be direct copy, of course, so I took a crack at it and started really liking this idea. I blended in some elements inspired by Aerith as well. I'm a broken record at this point, but I like her gameplay and would like to see more inspiration from her in the same way that Gunbreaker is inspired by Squall. This is just the DPS toolset, by the way, so how we want to approach the rest of the kit is up for discussion.
White Mage Rework Concept:
Spark - GCD Spell
- Single target damage with a potency of 250.
- Grants 1 Glint, an element of a second gauge added to this concept. You can have up to 3 Glints.
- Instant Cast; No MP Cost
Note: The new filler spell, inspired by Aerith's basic attacks.
Tempest - GCD Spell
- AoE damage around your target with a potency of 150.
- Grants 1 Absolution, another aspect of the second gauge.
- When 3 Glints are present, this becomes a twofold attack. Does not require Glints to be cast.
- 2.5 second cast time; No MP Cost
Note: Can be used as your AoE button, or as the "finisher" to your single target combo. Inspired by Aerith's special attack.
Glare III - GCD Spell
- Single target damage with a potency of 300.
- When 1 Absolution is present, this becomes a twofold attack. Does not require Absolution to be cast.
- 1.5 second cast time; 400 MP cost
Note: Upgrades Glare from standard filler to a high-damage single target resource spender.
Dia - GCD Spell
- AoE damage around your target with a potency of 200.
- When 1 Absolution is present, this attack inflicts 3 stacks of Dia to the first enemy hit and 1 stack on all other enemies. Does not require Aboslution to be cast.
- Dia, the stacking debuff, is consumed and deals an additional 200 potency damage to targets struck by your casts of Glare, Dia, or Ablution. There is no duration on these stacks. Enemies can have as many as 5 stacks at a time.
- Instant cast; 400 MP cost
Note: Changes from a DoT to stacks of detonatable damage. Similar in function, but is less strict on timing.
Ablution - GCD Spell
- AoE damage around your target with a potency of 175 for the first enemy and 60% less for all remaining enemies.
- Grants 40 seconds of Flow. Can be extended up to 70 seconds when reapplying Flow.
- Flow is a gauge buff, similar to Dark Knight's Darkside. Flow is required for lilies to generate on the Healing Gauge. It additionally increases damage dealt and healing output by 5% and regenerates MP over time with a potency of 10.
- When 1 Absolution is present, this becomes a threefold attack. Does not require Absolution to be cast.
- 1.5 second cast; no MP cost
Note: Begins as Water and is upgraded to Ablution at a later level. New spell that functions as a third Absolution spender.
Afflatus Misery - GCD Spell
- AoE damage around your target with a potency of 1150 for the first enemy and 50% less for all remaining enemies.
- Grants 1 Absolution.
- Costs one Blood Lily. Up to two Blood Lilies can now be stored at a time.
- Instant cast; no MP cost; now has a 20 second recast timer.
Note: Updated to be a refund for your Spark > Tempest combo.
Holy III - OGCD Ability
- Aoe damage around you with a potency of 300 for the first enemy and 50% less for all remaining enemies.
- Stuns for 4 seconds.
- 60 second cooldown with 2 charges.
Note: Wanted Holy to be more grand rather than an AoE filler. But I'm not 100% sold on this way of using Holy, so definitely open to other ideas.
Germinate - GCD Spell
- Nourishes the Blood Lily.
- While out of combat, grants 60 seconds of Flow. While in combat, grants 20 seconds of Flow.
- Instant cast; no MP cost; increases the GCD recast timer to 4 seconds (like with Monk's Six-Sided Star).
Note: Used to get you set up out of combat and is useful during phase changes, but it otherwise not used during battle.
"Combos"
Single Target Combo: Spark x3 > Tempest > Glare/Dia/Ablution
AoE Combo: Tempest > Dia/Ablution
Here is a mockup of the single target rotation with the new gauge UI:
https://i.imgur.com/k22LvY9.jpg
While it's a bit different than Paladin, I originally began thinking about if there were more options for either Holy Spirit/Circle or Atonement. It's still more simple than Paladin overall, but it's more about making a choice after your combo which I think is interesting. Again, it's only the DPS tools, so there's more that could be fleshed out here, but if anyone is interested in talking more about this concept or ideas they get from it, then I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Paladin-Inspired White Mage Concept
Printable View
-
08-06-2023, 11:30 AMty_taurusPaladin-Inspired White Mage Concept
-
08-06-2023, 12:22 PMAravell
It's an interesting idea, but if I'm understanding it correctly, I see an issue with the rotation.
Let's take 8 GCDs in single target:
Spark > Spark > Spark > Tempest > Glare III > Spark > Spark > Spark
That's 250+250+250+(150x2)+(300x2)+250+250+250
That equals 2400.
Now let's take the AoE combo in single target
Tempest > Dia > Tempest > Dia > Tempest > Dia > Tempest > Dia
That's 150+200(+3 Dia stacks)+150+200(+1000(5 Dia stacks at 200 each))+150+200(+3 Dia stacks)+150+200(+1000(5 Dia stacks at 200 each))
That equals 3400.
I think you might want to tone down the Dia stack damage a bit, or maybe cap it at 3. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding something here. -
08-06-2023, 12:26 PMty_taurusEach cast of Glare/Dia/Ablution only consumes 1 stack at a time, not all at once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
Although now you have me thinking, I might need to change the wording that the detonates only occur when Glare/Dia/Ablution consume Absolution. Cause what if you apply 3 stacks then Glare > Glare > Glare without absolution? Cause now I'm wondering if it's kinda pointless to spend Absolution on Glare when you could just normal Glare for 500 with a Dia stack without needing to generate absolution first. But that also kinda makes it similar to Atonement. I'll think about that another time. -
08-07-2023, 07:19 AMRenathras
I did just bump a thread.
For this reason, so that we could talk about it since you wanted to.
Here's the thread: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-Mage-eddition
Anyway, I'll repeat it here:
1) Make Holy work like Cure 3. For those who don't know, Cure 3 can be cast on a target, and centers its effect around them OR it can be cast with no target or the WHM targeted, and will center the effect around the WHM. It works this way in both PvP and PvE. If Holy worked this way, it could be employed EXACTLY as it is now by the WHM player targeting themselves or any friendly party member (Holy would NOT be usable on party members), either case centering it on the WHM. If targeting an enemy, the Holy effect would be centered on their location instead.
2) Add EITHER ONE of the following:
2a) Thundercloud-like Proc to Dia - Dia ticks have a chance of procing Improved Holy. Doing so boosts the power of the next Holy cast 3x and makes it instant cast. Casting Holy removes the buff. Buff cannot stack, new procs overwrite (extend the duration) of an existing version of the proc on the WHM (in other words, you can't stack them; just like Thundercloud), OR,
2b) Casting Glare builds up 3 charges. On the third charge, the WHM is granted Improved Holy, which works just like above - instant cast 3x damage Holy.
[Note in both cases: 3x Holy = 450 Potency, a 140 gain over Glare III's 310]
OPTIONAL:
3) Holy generates 1/2 charge of Blood Lily per cast. This means in 4 man dungeons, when spamming Holy, every 6th Holy would allow a use of Misery. Just something to change up the rotation. [Could be a full charge, but that MIGHT be OP in other situations, not sure, would have to think of it some more. Note this is just kind of a side idea - hence the all caps "OPTIONAL" - and can be viewed as distinct from the other two. I suppose we could throw it in with the other two, where 2 Holy + 2 Afflatus = 1 Misery, but...meh, I wasn't thinking that myself at the time. Could have Improved Holy NOT generate this effect as well, if we didn't want that happening in single-target fights.]
.
Since then, I've come to this basic overall plan:
1) Holy is a ranged attack like Cure 3, as above. When cast without a target, with the caster targeted, or with a friendly target targeted, the cast will center on the caster. With an enemy targeted, the cast will center on the target enemy.
2) Every cast of Glare generates one stack of "Empowered Glare", lasts for 30 seconds, stacks up to two times; At the third stack, becomes "Empowered Holy", lasts for 30 seconds, and graints the following effect: "The next Holy is instant cast and does 4x normal damage" (a DPS gain on single target over Glare); Empowered Glare can stack with Empowered Holy, but at the third stack will overwrite Empowered Holy.
3) Every non-empowered Holy cast generates one stack of "Holy Retribution", lasts for 30 seconds, stacks up to two times; At the third stack, becomes "Holy Purgation", lasts for 30 seconds, and grants the following effect (like Dark Arts on DRK): "The next Misery cast does not consume the Blood Lily and does not require a full bloom Blood Lily to cast, but only does half damage." (or only does 25% if half is still too powerful); Holy Retribution can stack with Holy Purgation, but at the third stack will overwrite Holy Purgation.
4) Assize is converted into a GCD with a 30 sec CD; potency adjusted to 600 for the first target and 300 (50%) for all other targets. Or something roughly around there; the idea here is to give it potency about equal to Assize normalized from 40 to 30 seconds, plus the foregone Glare cast, so that it's approximately DPS neutral to its PRESENT DAY incarnation (that is, not weaker than what we have now, and thus balanced), but like Plegma gives a GCD to further interrupt the nukespam. Stacks to 2.
OPTIONAL ADDITIONS:
5) Dia can stack to 60 seconds. Refreshing the Dot snapshots at current potency values (so refreshing a Dia in progress when you hit burst buffs is a DPS gain, but then refreshing that one early is a DPS loss).
ALTERNATIVE (dislike this one, personally):
5b) Dia ticks have a chance to make the next Dia cast cost no MP and, instead of applying the damage over time effect, deal the full 770 potency damage as a single hit. ("Diacloud" proc method). I tend to think of WHM as like HydEx; a fight of order and structure. Umbral is order vs Astral being chaotic, so it should be regular. Procs are not regular and are disruptive, chaotic things, thus they belong more with something like BLM.
5c) Simply leave Dia along as it is today. Easy enough.
.
This results in a rotation that is not dissimilar to today, but has more variation in the GCD buttons we press. Instead of Dia, Glare for 30 sec, using Solace/Rapture as needed along the way, and Misery 1 time per minute, with Assize weaved on CD; this has 3 Glare then 1 Holy casts as a foundational rotation, Dia refreshed every 30 seconds, Assize used every 30, 60, then twice at 120 seconds, with Solace/Rapture peppered in, and Misery used once per minute.
Note that with the optional Dia change, this means it would be optimal to ride Dia close to but not over 30 seconds into buff windows so you could boost it to near 60 seconds of buffed potency, but then not refresh it until it falls off that time. It would be kind of like old SMN where you got three DoT refreshes with Tri-Disaster per 2 min rotation but did the manual refresh once, giving you a sort of "backbeat" cycle instead of a metronome one. Dia with this method would be cast before burst, cast in burst, don't touch for 1 min, refresh for 30 sec, refresh again (either then for 60 or once half a min later for 30), then refresh once more before going into burst to give you the 60 sec buffed one when you refresh it in burst. While you could just cast 2x Dia in burst, this would cost you a buffed Glare 3, and thus be suboptimal.
Under (5b) instead, the rotation would be less complex, but have more wild variance, feast-or-famine, and one's performance metrics (forbidden website) would be far more dependent on crit chance and "white noise" variance. Thus this is the worse of the two options by quite a stretch.
The AOE rotation for dungeons becomes Dia on targets while running, then once the Tank has positioned them, 3x Holy + 1x Misery, along with any Solace/Rapture use on the tank for healing and an additional Misery once per minute as per the normal Lily cycle. I'm worried a bit about the Misery damage, so that's why the half (620 to the first enemy and 310 to all others) or 25% (310 to all enemies is how it would need to work, though, since half of that is 155, which is a SLIGHT gain over Holy's 150, but I don't know if it would feel particularly good. Still optimal, so I guess that works...)
.
Pros of this proposal:
1) No new hotbar bloat.
2) No new ability names/VFX that require additional asset development.
3) More complex rotation, both in the 1-1-1-4 (single target and AOE both do this, but using different buttons), and in the more complex Dia refresh pattern (for either options (5) or (5b)) for optimal damage.
4) It's very intuitive, other than (5)/(5b) options, which are still not terribly unintuitive, either. It retains WHM's easy to pick up and play nature, and while raising the complexity and skill ceiling, the skill floor will be not much higher than at present. Assize's GCD Medica 1/Rapture effect will also help WHM continue to lean into being "the GCD healer", which is the other half of its mechanical identity. So it retains most of what WHM is, plays into what WHM is, while nudging up the skill floor and raising the skill ceiling, but in a way that is still flexible and intuitive. If going with option (5c) instead, then even that's not unintuitive. -
08-07-2023, 09:58 AMAravellOk, that makes sense then. Although, what if you added an effect to Dia where you can explode all at once if it exceeds maximum stacks, but it then applies a 2 minute debuff where you cannot reapply Dia, so you can choose to have a big burst during a burst window but you're forced to miss the next one.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Also, a thought I had, instead of a flat damage and healing potency buff here, what do you think of a stacking -5% cast/recast and +5% MP regen (up to 20%, maybe 25%) everytime you refresh the buff? It could theoretically make spell speed a viable stat to go for if someone wants to squeeze out extra casts of buffed Glare III.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
-
08-07-2023, 10:23 AMForsakenRoePersonally, not a massive fan of the idea, you're essentially asking for Greased Lightning on a healer, and we know how annoying that was re: cutscenes mid-fight that cause you Down for the CountQuote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
'Ramping' type designs can feel good in theory, but you end up with an unavoidable 'this feels awful' moment at the start of the ramp, so I don't think it's worth it unless you have a way to instantly hit max stacks (at which point, you're not 'ramping' so what's the point in the system)
The part that I do like about the idea though is the MP/SPS buff, as a way to make one healer be 'the speedster'. IDK if WHM is the right one for that archetype, though. Maybe it would be better if AST wasn't already kinda shoehorned into it with Astrodyne. If anything though, I'd actually suggest it to be SGE, given that it procs a standardized amount of healing via Kardia, enhancing it's speed would mean more Kardia procs so it's selfsynergistic. Maybe throw it on Toxicon, and give that move a way to be better accessed. eg, make it a 0-100 bar, gain X points each time Kardia heals someone, and executing Toxicon grants this 'speed buff' for Y seconds, with Y being equal to the amount of Gauge at the time of execution. Then Toxicon is an integral part of the rotation, and it's presence in the trailer makes a lot more sense, because Alphinaud opened with it, clearly he's setting up the buff -
08-07-2023, 10:47 AMAravellFair point on the ramping up thing, but MNK did have a way of dealing with it using Wind Tackle. You could have a pre-pull thing you can use to start the fight at the halfway point (so 10% buff) and another thing that quickly gets you up one tier in the opener (so 15%), like how MNK could use a combo ender with a pre-pull Form Shift and then Wind Tackle twice to get to GL3 in the opener.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
I'll admit that I only pitched the haste buff for WHM because I read something like it back in ShB where WHM did have some movement issues (The MP part was added on by me because a haste buff on its own would probably force piety melds, and no one wants that). I'm not stuck on it needing to be applied to WHM, could also go well with SGE. I wouldn't put it on AST though, nobody cares for Astrodyne and higher speed would also make weaving really uncomfortable. -
08-07-2023, 11:18 AMty_taurusActually, with Germinate functioning the way I wrote it, throat wouldn’t be a problem because you could maintain Flow similarly to how Black Mage can use Transpose. But I’m not sure that effect is needed on a healer. The goal was something more like Darkside on Dark Knight.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
-
08-07-2023, 12:33 PMForsakenRoeYou know, thinking on it more, while you are aiming for 5.0 DRK, I think having SGE be 'echoes of 4.0 DRK' doesn't sound completely terrible in theory. We have Eukrasia as the 'Dark Arts' modifier analogue, so expanding that to cover more effects, and then adding a Blood Weapon analogue to provide the haste buff (and ways to extend it) could be interesting. It might even incentivize using Piety for something, if that can be believedQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
I remember the Wind Tackle giving a stack, but iirc it was that 'in Fists of Wind, you can tackle a second time, and only the second tackle gives GL', so you'd be at GL2, and have to do a full combo to get up to 3. Which is why TK rotation was 'optimal', but also not enough of a gain for some people to bother with, the damage gained by doing it was offset by the fact you'd be GL2 for a full 3 GCD block. Maybe I misremember, I didn't play MNK much back then (no time, when tank was as fun as it was)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
-
08-07-2023, 12:46 PMRenathrasQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
For the spirit of civility, I'll try and ignore you started the post by taking yet another pot shot at me (I can't always be the one being the bigger man, my friend) to just discuss the idea:
Flavor:
I guess my first critique is with the names. I know you want to base it on Aerith, but it kind of throws everything around when there's really no good reason to do so. Something we Humans (in general, not even just you and me) do is get attached to our ideas, which seem so good to us, that we don't get that even little things like that can make things more trouble to others and might not be as well received. Not everyone is thinking "Man, it'd be cool to have a more combat WHM with Aerith spell and ability names!", so to speak. This is more a flavor thing, but it has merit since it is something that people care about. You could have left Glare as your Spark and made Tempest the finisher and just ignored Spark (or Glare in that usage) entirely.
I'm not sure what these other parts of the gauge are. Are they petals? Thorns? Thematically, what are they?
Mechanics:
1) The thing that jumps out at me right away is Ablution/Flow. This is a pretty hard no. It's something I hate on WAR and I hate on DRK, and neither of them have a DoT to maintain in addition to it. This would instantly turn WHM into the healer with the single most upkeep stuff to juggle, and failing to upkeep it would nerf your healing by attacking Lily generation; something else no healer has to do. Imagine if AST had to upkeep a buff or they couldn't draw cards, or SCH couldn't use Aetherflow. WAR and DRK have an upkeep buff, WAR and DRK have no DoT, PLD and GNB have (arguably) neither (their DoTs are CDs, not full uptime ones). We've already seen in TOP how one member of a role not having passive resource generation in downtime does vs ones that do (DRK vs everyone else) made the one that does king. Meaning doing the reverse with healers having one that does not if your Flow falls off (WHM) should clearly be seen as a bad idea. In addition to WHM already being a lesser pick option for TOP as it is due to its weak mitigation suite. I can keep going into this one, but I think my point is clear - Flow is a bad idea in general FOR a healer. If we were designing a DPSer, it might make more sense. But for a healer, it's not a good idea, especially not if tied to a healing resource, and double especially if the healer still has to maintain a DoT effect of some kind.
(5)...granted, I'm not quite sure what Dia is doing here, but I think having two upkeep things is just something no one else in a non-Red role does. Tanks don't and Healers don't, because they have other things they're supposed to be tracking. And again, tying it to a key healing resource is just a hard no.
That said...of the two I kind of prefer a stacking upkeep buff to a DoT in general...it just feels wrong somehow. Hard to put my finger on it. I think it's because Lily generation (healing resource) is tied to it. I'm not sure I'd like it in general, but I know I wouldn't like it with that.
2) If your goal is to "keep accessible skill floor but raise the skill ceiling and engagement of players once skilled in content that's easy for them to heal", I'll note you did the opposite of what Sabezy suggested. Her suggestion (much as I personally dislike it) was to have more damage on the DoT (or DoTs; like ARR SCH) and less on the nuke spell, meaning a lower damage loss if GCDs needed to be devoted to healing or if you drop cast GCD spells due to movement or mechanics. You seem to have gone in the opposite direction, investing all damage into the rotation, while also splitting it up across abilities to make doing the rotation correctly more needed. I'm not quite sure if it's more punishing than a dropped Glare now, but that probably depends on what the substitute is (e.g. pushing the rotation to the right). It's a bit harder to gauge because of how many things are instant vs not and how they interact, but it doesn't seem more intuitive or less punishing on the low end, for sure.
3) Germinate seems like a REALLY bad Rhizomata. It seems to be what Roe called one of those type of "unless you have a way to instantly hit max stacks (at which point, you're not 'ramping' so what's the point in the system)" where Flow is kind of a ramp you have to get up and maintain, and this is just the bad way to get there. Seems a lot like NIN's Huraijin, which is basically a dead ability you have to slot on your hotbar and then never use unless you die in combat, and it feels bad TO use when you DO have to.
4) I'm also not sure about the combo. While it would be different, note that no other Job in the game has a 5 part combo with 4 static parts and a 3 way branch on the back end. Much less a caster. SAM has a 1- that splits three ways, two having -2-3 and one having just -2, WAR and NIN have a -3b alternate for an upkeep buff, and PLD has a -4-4-4 with a -5 that can be used anywhere in between them Or after the next -1 or the -2 after that. This wouldn't be a negative - again - if this was a proposal for a DPS Job. Honestly, this idea is something I'd kind of LIKE in a DPS Job. It feels a bit more complex and involved than SMN, but still relatively straightforward, and with an upkeep self-buff and upkeep debuff on the enemy.
5) What...IS Dia doing here? Mechanically, I mean. One thing confusing to me is it says it stacks up to 5, but then it detonates on the next Dia, meaning you can't stack it to 5? Or does it only detonate on the main target so that you want to cycle between targets in AOE? But then for bosses, you never can get a 5 stack since when you use it a second time, it consumes the three stacks while placing 3 new ones, meaning you never get over 3 stacks? Was that supposed to be "targets struck by your Glare, Tempest, or Ablution"? Or was the intent that Dia does not get above 3 in single target fights and isn't supposed to be used for single target fights? I'm not sure I'm understanding how this one is supposed to be used unless that was a typo there and was supposed to be Tempest? But that can't be right, since you'd always use Tempest before...?
6) Holy...goes from being a powerful mitigation ability and cascade of blinding light to...a use 2x during raid buffs on CD ability? I feel like that's a step down in identity and cool-factor. Might as well just change Misery to Holy for the wow factor instead, I'd think.
7) Under this design, we don't have PoM or Assize anymore?
.
I think those are the things that stick out to me the most.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
As I said two or so times above, I think this pitch would be pretty fun as a DPSer. And as that's what SGE COULD be as a Healer, it would make a lot of sense on SGE given Kardia and how that could work. Something like this pitched for SGE would be a pretty good idea, actually. Buff Kardia and have some of the spells generate more, tie Flow (or whatever the Greek Doctor name for it would be) to generating AdderSTING...and that could be a cool design idea. Or use Addersting like RDM uses the 3 mana stack system for its finishers. -
08-07-2023, 12:47 PMAravellNah, it was 1 GL stack per tackle, it was ridiculously broken, it's also why Tornado Kick rotation was a gain, because you only dipped out of Fists of Fire for a few seconds and go back in at 3 stacks. It also can be a solution to the ramping up problem, just add in the Wind Tackle functionality so you start in a 3 stack buffed state, then add in a way to preserve your stacks in downtime. That way, you're only punished if you die.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe