Discuss: Should new jobs start at level 1?

This is a topic I think is worth discussing, at least recently more than in the past.

I know they're thinking of what to do past the lvl 100 cap in 7.0, but with new job(s) comes an increased starting level.

The main issue that I've seen experienced is that for new players (and perhaps even some vets), it can be quite overwhelming to have a mid to high level kit when just starting out the job due to the sheer amount of abilities you start out with. Experience gain is so fast that they can start trying out jobs like Gunbreaker and Sage early.

What happens here is that for some people, this could be their first time trying out tanking or healing, and they're being shoved into level 60/70 content and are trying to find their ground instead of starting from level 1 and learning gradually more comfortably, like with Gladiator or Conjurer.

This of course can be fixed by whacking the dummy and reading tooltips or watching a video. That's not always guaranteed for the other players entering the instance, though, so they potentially get someone who flat out doesn't know the basics of their kit.

What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Zairava

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All the playerbase needs to do is READ their tool tips. 85% of the community can't do that already, and 90% of the community cant do basic mechanics in a dungeon without dying. There's no point in fixing the mechanic of level 1 to 99 if players are just bad in general (cause they dont wanna learn).

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

All the playerbase needs to do is READ their tool tips. 85% of the community can't do that already, and 90% of the community cant do basic mechanics in a dungeon without dying. There's no point in fixing the mechanic of level 1 to 99 if players are just bad in general (cause they dont wanna learn).

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Yeah, I can agree with that. The same reason I wish they'd take a few steps back regarding job design.

Low level tank/healer don't really teach you anything meaningful about how the classes play at high level anyway. Hell, for healers it actually installs bad habits (with the kits as they are now) that you need to *unlearn* to play well at higher levels. Maybe it's different for DPS which haven't regularly had their abilities removed and recycled into higher levels, but I can't think of a single reason to start any class lower than 50 these days, there just aren't enough abilities in the lower levels now. Progression's a lot different than it was back in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

Low level tank/healer don't really teach you anything meaningful about how the classes play at high level anyway. Hell, for healers it actually installs bad habits (with the kits as they are now) that you need to *unlearn* to play well at higher levels. Maybe it's different for DPS which haven't regularly had their abilities removed and recycled into higher levels, but I can't think of a single reason to start any class lower than 50 these days, there just aren't enough abilities in the lower levels now. Progression's a lot different than it was back in ARR.

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Honestly, the progression is a problem in itself.

They improved that for Monk with EW launch, I'd like to see them improve the leveling experience for the other jobs as well.

You could have the new classes start at level -90 and make them level up 190 times to get to level 100 in the next expansion, it doesn't change the fact that some people just don't read their tooltips, don't care to improve, don't want to take advice etc. The 'tutorial' of levelling the class does not work for a lot of players. As an example, at what point does the game tell a new player that the potency of a DOT is dealt once per 3 seconds? When someone sees 'deals unaspected damage over time with a potency of 40, duration 30s' on their DOT, I can completely see why someone would not use it. 'Stone's like 210 potency, and this is only 40? Why would I use this it's weak af' because it doesn't tell the player (at least to my knowledge) that it does '40 per 3 seconds, for the duration listed, therefore 400 in total', they can just as easily interpret it as '40p total, over the 30s duration', making it average out to like 1.5 per second which sounds absolutely trash

I don't think the game ever told me what Refresh (status) did either, I had a bit of a moment at level 35ish levelling WHM where I couldn't work out how to get MP back (not realizing it was Shroud of Saints), luckily a quick Google helped solve that one, but point stands: important things like 'how DOTs work' and 'how do I get MP back' need to be explained ingame, if they are not already.

Also yeh, if new classes were forced to start at level 1, then the whole 'oh get 10 levels so you can play the new expansion as the new class' becomes 'oh get 90 levels first', that'd take so so long for zero gain. In fact, I'd rather have it the opposite: People who preorder expansion and register the code (and therefore cannot refund anymore, they've 'locked in' their purchase) should be able to pick up the new classes, two weeks before the launch of the expansion. This gives them 2 weeks to get those 10 levels, allowing them to do the story at the same time as everyone else

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

You could have the new classes start at level -90 and make them level up 190 times to get to level 100 in the next expansion, it doesn't change the fact that some people just don't read their tooltips, don't care to improve, don't want to take advice etc. The 'tutorial' of levelling the class does not work for a lot of players. As an example, at what point does the game tell a new player that the potency of a DOT is dealt once per 3 seconds? When someone sees 'deals unaspected damage over time with a potency of 40, duration 30s' on their DOT, I can completely see why someone would not use it. 'Stone's like 210 potency, and this is only 40? Why would I use this it's weak af' because it doesn't tell the player (at least to my knowledge) that it does '40 per 3 seconds, for the duration listed, therefore 400 in total', they can just as easily interpret it as '40p total, over the 30s duration', making it average out to like 1.5 per second which sounds absolutely trash

I don't think the game ever told me what Refresh (status) did either, I had a bit of a moment at level 35ish levelling WHM where I couldn't work out how to get MP back (not realizing it was Shroud of Saints), luckily a quick Google helped solve that one, but point stands: important things like 'how DOTs work' and 'how do I get MP back' need to be explained ingame, if they are not already.

Also yeh, if new classes were forced to start at level 1, then the whole 'oh get 10 levels so you can play the new expansion as the new class' becomes 'oh get 90 levels first', that'd take so so long for zero gain. In fact, I'd rather have it the opposite: People who preorder expansion and register the code (and therefore cannot refund anymore, they've 'locked in' their purchase) should be able to pick up the new classes, two weeks before the launch of the expansion. This gives them 2 weeks to get those 10 levels, allowing them to do the story at the same time as everyone else

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You know, it would actually be a lot more clear if DoT tooltips read like this instead:

"Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 400 over the span of 30 seconds (40 potency every 3 seconds)"

If you want people to learn, you'll need a combination of real challenges that aren't so lenient as to allow most members to fail the learning check without any unavoidably noticeable feedback of that failure and enough intuitive... and on-demand support to make how to improve both in the moment and in the future to be understandable to nigh every player.

Without a decent 'difficulty curve' to curate learning opportunities, the 'learning curve' becomes a third-party / optional happenstance, because it literally has neither decent access nor featured reward in-game.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

I know they're thinking of what to do past the lvl 100 cap in 7.0, but with new job(s) comes an increased starting level.

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I can only recommend they do a level squish, the first job should still take the same time as now to get to max level, but secondary jobs need to level a lot faster, or how will newer players ever be able to catch up to the current expansion.
As it is now, you need to run each dungeon 3-5 times then proceed to the next higher dungeon.
oh you want to play a healer? better grind those exp for weeks from 1 to 100, tough life, it is already really hard to get new players ready for the current content.
The amount of time it takes for new players to level, unlock all the content, get gear is such a big demand on their time already.

ARR = Level 1-30
HW = Level 30-35
SB = Level 35-40
ShB = Level 40-45
EW = Level 45-50
??? = Level 50-55

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I can only recommend they do a level squish, the first job should still take the same time as now to get to max level, but secondary jobs need to level a lot faster, or how will newer players ever be able to catch up to the current expansion.
As it is now, you need to run each dungeon 3-5 times then proceed to the next higher dungeon.
oh you want to play a healer? better grind those exp for weeks from 1 to 100, tough life, it is already really hard to get new players ready for the current content.
The amount of time it takes for new players to level, unlock all the content, get gear is such a big demand on their time already.

ARR = Level 1-30
HW = Level 30-35
SB = Level 35-40
ShB = Level 40-45
EW = Level 45-50
??? = Level 50-55

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I'd do similar, but halve everything after next expansion. We'd be at level 100 going into what should be 110, we halve everything so that anyone who was level 100 is now 50. Divide every level requirement for duties ingame already by 2, and round down any decimals to an integer number. Then you have ARR 1-25, HW 25-30, SB 30-35, SHB 35-40, EW 40-45, 7.0 is 45-50, and the new expansion can be 50-60 if they want, this buys them 5 more expansions of time. Dividing all levels by 2 makes it easy for the maths on what level content goes at too. TEA is now level 40. UCOB/UWU are level 35. A levelling dungeon example, Bardam's Mettle (65) becomes level 32 (should be 32.5, but rounds down), etc

I don't have as much logical warrant behind this preference as I would like, but...

I'd really just like to see the ARR levels squished to, say, 30 in total AND, more importantly, for roughly half of all gameplay-additive elements from our expansions to be accelerated (pushed earlier) by 2-3 expansions.

Relatively uninteresting ability rewards for leveling through another expansion is a very minor issue compared to taking so damn long to build a compelling kit.

(Assuming some improvements to control over active mitigation, with Brutal Shell's cure+barrier being exchanged for suppression via Burst Strike, and Continuation granting a layer of Evasion-shield, etc.) Gunbreaker should have Continuation by level 60, Hypervelocity by 70, Heart of Corundum (revamped to be a follow-up action after HoS) by 80. Bard should have access to all three songs by the end of ARR and about 10-20 levels' more complexity at the end of each expansion. Etc., etc.

Personally, I don't much care if I end up going to level 120 someday. I do mind new players having our modern day gutted leveling experience, especially if they're not given the option to skip the whole ARR-EW plot arch and jump straight to Plot Arch #2.

I wish all jobs started at zero.

I want jobs and classes for everything.

I want full plotlines for everything.

It aint happening though.

Each expansion would require more and more effort for each job added.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

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Unless your intent is specifically just to increase the penalty of multi-leveling by having n repetitions of all the same content... couldn't you just do this by making new characters? You can have 8 per server, after all...

Something that they tried with DNC and GNB was giving you a tutorial quest to play around, but it wasn't as fleshed out, but then the SGE quest does a great job by even mentioning some of the more important spells you should use (Aka, "hey put Krasis on me", "hey use eukrasia to put a shield", etc...)

I bet most people skipped the first quest beause they saw the only quest unlock was at lvl80 and leveled directly there to do the quests in bulk

If they keep going the same route as the SGE quest, maybe giving a instanced duty on the unlock quest with a "Roleplay scenario" as a NPC you meet, where you have only the most important 6 or 7 skills of the class, could be an effective way to set up the groundwork for when you unlock the job

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Originally Posted by Raraka

Something that they tried with DNC and GNB was giving you a tutorial quest to play around, but it wasn't as fleshed out, but then the SGE quest does a great job by even mentioning some of the more important spells you should use (Aka, "hey put Krasis on me", "hey use eukrasia to put a shield", etc...)

I bet most people skipped the first quest beause they saw the only quest unlock was at lvl80 and leveled directly there to do the quests in bulk

If they keep going the same route as the SGE quest, maybe giving a instanced duty on the unlock quest with a "Roleplay scenario" as a NPC you meet, where you have only the most important 6 or 7 skills of the class, could be an effective way to set up the groundwork for when you unlock the job

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I mean, the Sage tutorial kinda teaches you to heal wrong though too. It tries to teach you the mindset of using your GCD barriers for tankbusters, something that's a complete waste of time and resources in actual gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Unless your intent is specifically just to increase the penalty of multi-leveling by having n repetitions of all the same content... couldn't you just do this by making new characters? You can have 8 per server, after all...

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The "repetitions of all the same content" are the problem. Given 90 levels of content, you'd THINK that they'd manage to make a story for each and every one of them. Since this is me talking about what I dream of existing, I get to dream of every class having a wonderfully complicated, differeniated, and detailed quest. Things are far apart from eachother as the paladin and the reaper quests.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

The "repetitions of all the same content" are the problem. Given 90 levels of content, you'd THINK that they'd manage to make a story for each and every one of them. Since this is me talking about what I dream of existing, I get to dream of every class having a wonderfully complicated, differeniated, and detailed quest. Things are far apart from eachother as the paladin and the reaper quests.

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Sure, but whether they get job quests or not isn't my point. Per job quest arch, the job quests themselves provide at best a single level of experience.

The remaining 90% of experience by which to level those jobs you'd want to each start from lv1 is, again, repetitions of that same content by which any other alt was leveled -- grinding daily roulettes, dungeons, and FATEs.

There's no real reason new jobs can't start at 1. It isn't like all of the new jobs that started at 30, 50, 60 and 70 don't scale to level 15 for Sastasha. They are all playable. It seems like SE is just trying to fulfill the instant gratification that many players want.

What would make good sense is to maybe introduce the job in a quest line where you play the mentor NPC with the full kit. So you see how a job like Reaper would play at 70 (or 90). Then you start at 1 (where you should be anyway) and work your way up to it. Obviously, they can't do this now and they've already set a precedent but maybe they'll do something different in 7.0 for new jobs (if there are any).

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Originally Posted by dspguy

There's no real reason new jobs can't start at 1. It isn't like all of the new jobs that started at 30, 50, 60 and 70 don't scale to level 15 for Sastasha. They are all playable. It seems like SE is just trying to fulfill the instant gratification that many players want.

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Is... not wanting to repeat the exact same content for the umpteenth time (because the devs can't be bothered to allow for any breadth of content at remotely balanced efficiency) really wanting "instant gratification", though?

The alleged purpose of starting at level 1 was always just to familiarize the player with play. However, those jobs can only be accessed by someone already familiar with the game's play. At most, this would perhaps warrant requiring at least a dungeon or two's worth of experience on a tank before, say, unlocking DRK or on a healer before unlocking AST... except for the fact that, for instance, Haukke Manor isn't really any more difficult to learn "Tanking" or "Healing" in than is Sastasha.

"Yes, >80% of your actions are exactly the same, but you're now using a 30% longer sword, so we need to infantilize you again on the assumption you've completely forgotten how to play now that your sword is longer." Ehh... Nah.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

There's no real reason new jobs can't start at 1. It isn't like all of the new jobs that started at 30, 50, 60 and 70 don't scale to level 15 for Sastasha. They are all playable. It seems like SE is just trying to fulfill the instant gratification that many players want.

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When a job would start at level 1 then SE has to create a ton of weapons for all these levels. When they let them start at a much higher level SE can just skip the work of creating dozens of different weapons and safes a lot of money on dev time.

But also yes, who wants to spend hours running the same old dungeons again?

When I want to start a new job at level 1 I enter Palace of the Dead (solo, so I can take my time looking at tooltips). Then I don't have to bother with all the skills at once, but I also learn new skills in a much faster pace, which I prefer.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"Yes, >80% of your actions are the exactly same, but you're now using a 30% longer sword, so we need to infantilize you again on the assumption you've completely forgotten how to play now that your sword is longer." Ehh... Nah.

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Starting at lower levels also adds the risk of building 'bad habits'. How many people start believing that GCD healing is your main source of HPS, and that OGCDs like Tetra are 'for emergencies', instead of the community-accepted reverse? Sage starting at 1 would be absolutely bloody awful, and would get people thinking that Diagnosis is a skill that is worth using at any point. Instead, by starting it at 70, the player has Physis2, Ixochole, Druochole, Kerachole, Soteria/Kardia interactions, Toxicon for mobility, etc

If 'oh the onboarding is harder if the job starts at not-level-1' is the issue, the solution is not to lower the start level, it's to make a better onboarding process. The solo instances are a start, but they still need more work. Sage one tells you to use GCD healing, for example, iirc. Instead, it'd be better to have a fight where the catgirl tank says 'alright, let's fight this monster here. But to make sure you've learned how your Sage stuff works, I want you to try and do it without using Diagnosis once!' And this would be optional for the player, they wouldn't fail for using Diagnosis, but by prompting them to try it, they might realize that actually, Druochole is pretty strong. Taurochole has damage mitigation attached too. Soteria allows you to keep doing damage, and the Kardia healing is able to keep up much easier. And this would allow that player to build better habits re: how to heal, from the moment they start, instead of learning 'wrong' stuff like 'press Cure 1 for a free Cure 2 proc!'

I mean, a lot of that also just comes down to the game dealing with the excessive annoyance of failure (having to run back to the boss after a wipe, or previously having to wait on CDs after each wipe) solely by making failure itself nigh impossible in casual content (rather than just, starting people outside the boss room and adding some degree of time-based reward to mitigate the efficiency costs of particularly bad runs, so people don't just abandon and do FATEs for the 30 minutes).

If failure is impossible, you can't teach anything through the difference of whether X worked or not, since everything works regardless.



Having far tighter ilvl spans and higher base difficulty in leveling content would do wonders for its ability to teach. Of course, we also need to not completely invert how certain roles (especially, healing) function between late levels and those prior.

(Granted, accustoming players to greater difficulty would largely remove the threat otherwise posed by increased healing requirements and added complexity to downtime activity, which would in turn make for a lesser gap between that role's early and late levels.)

I wouldn't mind the option to start the game as these post-ARR jobs at level 1. I often roleplay it out like they were that job the whole way along either way, and depending how stubborn I am gonna be I level to unlock them (excepting HW jobs ofc) before really doing story anyway.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If 'oh the onboarding is harder if the job starts at not-level-1' is the issue, the solution is not to lower the start level, it's to make a better onboarding process. The solo instances are a start, but they still need more work. Sage one tells you to use GCD healing, for example, iirc. Instead, it'd be better to have a fight where the catgirl tank says 'alright, let's fight this monster here. But to make sure you've learned how your Sage stuff works, I want you to try and do it without using Diagnosis once!' And this would be optional for the player, they wouldn't fail for using Diagnosis, but by prompting them to try it, they might realize that actually, Druochole is pretty strong. Taurochole has damage mitigation attached too. Soteria allows you to keep doing damage, and the Kardia healing is able to keep up much easier. And this would allow that player to build better habits re: how to heal, from the moment they start, instead of learning 'wrong' stuff like 'press Cure 1 for a free Cure 2 proc!'

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I'm not sure I particularly like these Cure 1 and Diagnosis examples:

• It's not the purpose of onboarding to counteract job design. The Freecure trait simply needs to be deleted.
• It's nonsensical to say, "Don't use X." Why did the game give X to you in the first place, then? Either X needs to be deleted, or the explanation needs more nuance.

For healers, the more helpful phrasing is something like, "In general, prefer using your Lily/Aetherflow/Addersgall and oGCD healing tools to Spells such as Medica, etc. <insert reasons why>"

The other thing is that the more prescriptive ("Play the job this way") the onboarding becomes versus being descriptive ("Here's what this ability does"), the more risk there is that the officially blessed way of playing the job fails to align with how the players think the job should be played. And I think that's a worse problem than players maybe stumbling into a non-optimal way of playing a job.