Noticing bad rubberbanding / lag in game? SE needs to dump their ISP NTT

From the technical forums (emphasis mine):

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Originally Posted by Backlogathon

For what it's worth, here is what AT&T has given me back after some fairly insistent "please escalate this appropriately" requests on my part:

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I sincerely apologize for the inconveniences caused based on info found AT&T's services to get you to the ISPs of those you want to contact. Square Enix subscribes to NTT's services to allow you to connect to their servers.

Every traceroute I've seen shows that the latency issues begin inside NTT after AT&T hands off the traffic. NTT is not processing traffic properly from AT&T (and, based on the Square Enix posts, some other ISPs as well). So, the correct takeaway is the Square Enix should find a different ISP than NTT, not that any player should switch. A possible workaround would be the VPN solutions work is because it routes the traffic around the bottleneck in NTT's network near the AT&T consumer peering where a lot of consumers come in to a less congested connection.

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I dunno what to do next about this. We aren't NTT's customer. AT&T is saying that it's not their problem. NTT says it's both their problems (generally). Kinda leaves us stuck not being able to do a whole lot, and thus the "please contact your ISP" request from the Lodestone doesn't feel like it's going to get us much of anywhere.

Wish I could play the game with my kids right now without having to spend a bunch more money and time on VPN re-rerouting. (There's three of us playing, two on PS5.) And I'm not super-interested in the circus that is switching ISPs right now.

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IMHO SE / CBU3 should be providing at minimum weekly updates on what they're doing to help resolve this issue (daily would be ideal). At some point, they share responsibility for this.

Someone with ComCast(I think it was) said they had the same issue and that it was never fixed. They said that they've been using a VPN to deal with it, and I've seen so many other people asking about VPNs that it makes me fear people are just going to deal with it... which I refuse to do.

I hate having to say this because I feel like someone is going to call me a Karen for saying it, but this isn't our problem, and as consumers we shouldn't have to be paying more for other services to solve that problem. Since so many people are doing so I really fear that I might have to quit because SE isn't going to do anything and I don't want to get a VPN to play.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...lity_to_north/
This has info from ntt.

https://media.tenor.com/F-LoCUxCSQoA...3%E3%82%84.gif

yea, I noticed

I'm on ATT, in the midwest, on 300/300 fiber, and I'm simply not having this issue, at all. However, I do not play on weekdays before about 3 PM pacific time, most days. Weekends, I don't have any of this.

So, while the NTT/ATT peering site could be part of the problem, there's more to it somewhere. I cannot duplicate these issues at all.

Had super bad latency in p12 earlier today. My opening deployment tactics took two seconds to fire off.

It is very common for companies to blame their customers and tell them to contact their ISP if they have an issue.

But Square Enix is usually good about it and proactively contacts the ISP themselves to resolve the issue or setup countermeasures against a DDoS. So it's rare that they respond like this.

Since the reddit post seems to explain that it's a political problem, it does explain why Square Enix can't do anything about. If it were something they could physically change they probably would have, but when it's political all you can do is hate politics and complain to the overseers of paperwork.

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Originally Posted by KeshLives

I'm on ATT, in the midwest, on 300/300 fiber, and I'm simply not having this issue, at all. However, I do not play on weekdays before about 3 PM pacific time, most days. Weekends, I don't have any of this.

So, while the NTT/ATT peering site could be part of the problem, there's more to it somewhere. I cannot duplicate these issues at all.

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Also midwest, 1gig fiber ATT. Don't really notice it until the afternoons but it is prevalent. Dungeons/PvP/Raids, even in cities.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

But Square Enix is usually good about it and proactively contacts the ISP themselves to resolve the issue or setup countermeasures against a DDoS. So it's rare that they respond like this.
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Yoshi straight up said "It's not on our end, call AT&T".
AT&T said, "It's not on our end, it's NTT. They're screwing up multiple games" (What their data shows)
NTT has said "Crickets". Admit NOTHING!

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Since the reddit post seems to explain that it's a political problem, it does explain why Square Enix can't do anything about.

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But they can do something about it. Simply say "If you don't figure out a way to resolve this we will be forced to find another provider to handle our traffic and you will lose out on whatever figure we are paying you and we'll not recommend you to anyone else in the industry"

Still seeing it in the East… we’re on Comcast so no one we can complain to! lol Had almost a full day of no lag after the “hot fix” thing and thought maybe something got fixed, but the next time I logged in, it was back.

Specifically just running through an empty residential area is laggy. I can do my normal raids and roulettes passably, but the random lag spikes have led to a great many deaths that should not have happened!

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

But they can do something about it. Simply say "If you don't figure out a way to resolve this we will be forced to find another provider to handle our traffic and you will lose out on whatever figure we are paying you and we'll not recommend you to anyone else in the industry"

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well depends on the terms of their contract with them are. they might not be able to do that. you don't know what might or might not be in it. there could be massive penalties for breaking it on their end.

Well your ISP need to do something about it then, VPN should never be the solution and if so, then you got to ask questions to your provider.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

well depends on the terms of their contract with them are. they might not be able to do that. you don't know what might or might not be in it. there could be massive penalties for breaking it on their end.

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Every contract worth a d@mn has a "expected workmanship" clause that basically says that if something isn't meeting a standard that a reasonable workman could perform it generally allows for restitution / resolution.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Every contract worth a d@mn has a "expected workmanship" clause that basically says that if something isn't meeting a standard that a reasonable workman could perform it generally allows for restitution / resolution.

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Changing isp within a data center is far more difficult than for consumers or small businesses.

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Originally Posted by Khryseis_Astra

Still seeing it in the East… we’re on Comcast so no one we can complain to!

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Yeah, if you're on Comcast, you're screwed. Get another ISP if it's important to you.

the best part about this is that when something like this happened in JP, yoship issued a personal apology and had the issue resolved in less than a week. this has been ongoing for almost a month now

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

the best part about this is that when something like this happened in JP, yoship issued a personal apology and had the issue resolved in less than a week. this has been ongoing for almost a month now

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Different cultures are different.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Every contract worth a d@mn has a "expected workmanship" clause that basically says that if something isn't meeting a standard that a reasonable workman could perform it generally allows for restitution / resolution.

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Even if they are able to get released from the contract, there's the logistics of transferring their system infrastructure to a new one. They may be working on this behind the scenes and just can't say anything. Or might still be in some sort of negotiations. It's frustrating and I'm affected by it and do wish their was a bit more of some sort of acknowledgment, but I can also see where they may not be able to make changes quickly. Twelve knows even at my smaller business trying to make that sort of change takes time (and if you miss one path update suddenly your customers can't access the customer-facing application) so I can only imagine the red tape and headache at a larger scale.

yes it's not as simple as simply flipping a switch on and off. they can't just go "bye NTT" and suddenly sign up with ABC company.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

yes it's not as simple as simply flipping a switch on and off. they can't just go "bye NTT" and suddenly sign up with ABC company.

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We know it's not that simple, but there's been absolutely no communication on the issue at all.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

yes it's not as simple as simply flipping a switch on and off. they can't just go "bye NTT" and suddenly sign up with ABC company.

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Yes, and even if you are switching contracts, getting a new connection from a new company takes time. In a datacenter, you run into datacenter politics as well...

It's not something you can just wish and make it so.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

yes it's not as simple as simply flipping a switch on and off. they can't just go "bye NTT" and suddenly sign up with ABC company.

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We know, but there's been radio silence from CBU3 on this issue outside of the "we know it's going on but it's not us"

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

We know it's not that simple, but there's been absolutely no communication on the issue at all.

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Probably a little something called an "N-D-A"? There's a reason those exist. Hence why we've most likely heard nothing.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

Probably a little something called an "N-D-A"? There's a reason those exist. Hence why we've most likely heard nothing.

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NDAs don't prevent them from communicating entirely. SE can still discuss information regarding connectivity issues without disclosing anything too confidential, such as acknowledging it(they did once, but continued acknowledgement would help), along with continued reassurances that they're going to do something. If NTT is somehow pressuring SE not to talk about the whole issue at all, then that would likely involve way more than a NDA.

what's worse, nothing? or a weekly update saying all the time "sorry we still don't know what's going on"? lol

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

what's worse, nothing? or a weekly update saying all the time "sorry we still don't know what's going on"? lol

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"We have identified the problem and are actively working with NTT to resolve it"

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

"We have identified the problem and are actively working with NTT to resolve it"

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Ok, say they do say that. You wouldn't be satisfied either if they kept repeating that weekly until something changed, would you? Then you would complain that they don't change their message.
Best to say nothing at all than to say too much.

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Originally Posted by KeshLives

Different cultures are different.

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so it's okay to have a clear bias and give preferential treatment to people in your own culture?

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

Ok, say they do say that. You wouldn't be satisfied either if they kept repeating that weekly until something changed, would you? Then you would complain that they don't change their message.
Best to say nothing at all than to say too much.

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It depends. If they just put out the same blanket statement for weeks it would feel like window dressing.

But if they took just an ounce of care and said what they're doing, or how they're doing it, progress made etc etc it would go a long way.

aka Public Relations 101.

Passing the buck doesn't work in today's world where we have information at our fingertips and the power of millions of users being able to call their bluff / BS (with verifiable proof).

noticed last couple of days my lag spikes are mostly gone.

it definitely 'seems' better

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

It depends. If they just put out the same blanket statement for weeks it would feel like window dressing.

But if they took just an ounce of care and said what they're doing, or how they're doing it, progress made etc etc it would go a long way.

aka Public Relations 101.

Passing the buck doesn't work in today's world where we have information at our fingertips and the power of millions of users being able to call their bluff / BS (with verifiable proof).

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ok where are you going to get said proof? us as gamer individuals with zero connections have no way of getting such information. and calling bluffs means nothing to the holders of the information, and usually the less said the better.

people just want to be busybody's and you just end up being a karen instead.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

ok where are you going to get said proof? us as gamer individuals with zero connections have no way of getting such information. and calling bluffs means nothing to the holders of the information, and usually the less said the better.

people just want to be busybody's and you just end up being a karen instead.

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We literally have people calling AT&T (which Yoshi-P told us to do) and they gave us a lot more info than CBU3 did. They were the ones who told us that NTT was mishandling the traffic they were getting from AT&T, FFXIV and multiple other sources / games.

CBU3 could have said something similar without being accusatory to put leverage on NTT to fix their issues.

A basic logic exits: We as players shouldn't be required to have a VPN to play a game that we pay for to get decent performance from said game. We know it's not AT&T and it's not SE's fault (the lag), but it is SE's responsibility to partner with companies that can handle their traffic in an efficient way.

Noticed it just now. June 3, 2:27 pm EST, Georgia area. Boom, account gets knocked off the air. Inet seems ok, Browser unaffected. Restart toon.. moments later, boom. No apparent reason for it at my end. Square's usual 9000x error message useless.

S

Don't expect either company to care. This has been ongoing for 10+ years.

Question...are you all running wired connections? I was having issues, until one night I wasn't. I forgot my VPN, and I didn't know why I was doing fine. Hell, my ping was better than ever. Then I realized...my ethernet cable wasn't connected the entire way, I'd been running the game with wifi the entire night.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

what's worse, nothing? or a weekly update saying all the time "sorry we still don't know what's going on"? lol

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You really just came into this thread to move the goalposts around constantly, didn't you?

Someone did not do their homework and SE and NTT relationship.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Someone did not do their homework and SE and NTT relationship.

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Right. Because this hasn't been going on since at least 2018

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Right. Because this hasn't been going on since at least 2018

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Lag always been a issue for this game tell me something new.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Right. Because this hasn't been going on since at least 2018

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It was also an issue when we went through Level3, another backbone provider, when the servers were in Montreal.



NTT says its in talks with ATT to fix the issue. ATT passes the blame. The issue is inter-ISP connectivity and routing. NTT says there is a capacity issue in an LA node. Both sides need to upgrade hardware. From what I read, it sounds like ATT wants NTT to pay for both ends, while NTT wants ATT to pay for its side. Welcome to corporate politics.

Note the FF servers are housed inside NTT data centers. So there is no simple just change ISPs as a fix.