Thoughts on Healing, Tanks & Mob Pack Damage in 6.4

I don't really make topics here but wanted to after spamming Aetherfont yesterday to try to land the minion (it still eludes me :V). This also isn't going to be anything really new either.

Gonna start off by saying that I really enjoy shield healing. Like, a lot. I love the rush of stopping damage in its tracks and it's been the role I most identify with. I started off with Noct Sect AST (RIP </3) and then moved over to Scholar during Endwalker.

As much as I love healing, I'm starting to notice more lately that I'm doing the same exact thing during pulls that I feel isn't necessarily optimization but moreso in the realm of laziness/not having much else to do.

Step 1: Put shield on tank
Step 2: Smack with Excog
Step 3: Spam with AoW
Step 4: Rinse and repeat

Sometimes I will need to deviate (particularly with DRKs) but when it comes to WAR and PLD, I can just take a backseat and be a green DPS. This is alright...but it's not really okay either.

I really would like to see mob packs start hitting harder (reminiscent of Holminster Switch, the amount of times I've seen full party wipes just from mobs is more than I can count on both hands and I miss those days a lot tbh lol). We're in level 90 content, in my opinion things should be nuking the tanks damage at a rate that WAR and PLD actually need help from their healers to stay afloat.

I get that it might make things overwhelming for people fresh off the upcoming level 90 job boosts that we'll probably see in 7.0, but at the same time it's not really fair to punish those who have been raising their classes from the bottom and are skilled at it. Nor is it really fair to make healing irrelevant half the time for the sake of having two tanks who can carry heals if they wanted to.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Thanks for reading if you made it this far. o7

Holminster in early ShB was a bit of a special case, it was a combination of leveling dungeon where people don't completely overgear the minimum ilvl and a whole lot of absolutely terrible Gunbreakers.

I absolutely agree with wanting dungeons that have a bit more teeth (or any teeth at all really) but this is a discussion that has been going on for years at this point. The level cap dungeons aren't just easy at this point, they're completely mindless, and have been even before the introduction of Bloodwhetting.

A lot of people were hoping that Criterion would scratch that itch for harder dungeons but it turned out to basically just be an extreme trial boss rush.

As for people who use level skip potions, I've always been of the opinion that if you use a level skip then it is your responsibility to read up on how to play said job and probably practice a bit, not immediately jump into group content and sandbag parties because you have no idea what you're doing.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Holminster in early ShB was a bit of a special case, it was a combination of leveling dungeon where people don't completely overgear the minimum ilvl and a whole lot of absolutely terrible Gunbreakers.

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That moment when leveling dungeons are harder than "expert" dungeons.

Can dungeon mobs still land critical hits, or did that go away at some point?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

That moment when leveling dungeons are harder than "expert" dungeons.

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They always have been lol. Always.

Slavery has always been a problem. Always.

Let's all sit down and do absolutely nothing because the problem has been there. lol.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

Slavery has always been a problem. Always.

Let's all sit down and do absolutely nothing because the problem has been there. lol.

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So... You're going to stop trolling?

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Step 1: Put shield on tank
Step 2: Smack with Excog
Step 3: Spam with AoW
Step 4: Rinse and repeat

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If it's a well-geared tank, such as a paladin or warrior, you can reduce those steps.

Step 1: Spam with AoW
Step 2: Rinse and repeat

Since I am incredibly confident I don't need a healer in that dungeon. :D The excogs just wear off.

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I really would like to see mob packs start hitting harder (reminiscent of Holminster Switch

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They do hit hard, it's just that the tanks you are healing are in good gear. If they went in with the worst possible gear, it does hurt a lot. The reason Holminster hurts so much is it syncs to the item level it's designed for (400).

They are generous in allowing undergeared people in, who didn't equip their quest gear, as well, to prevent people having issues doing the MSQ and that can increase the healing burden further.

This is how all leveling dungeons are. The Endwalker ones hurt a lot too. Aetherfront isn't a leveling dungeon.

A lot of tanks best heals aren't available at that level either and obviously many of them get to a point where they can heal themselves without much sweat by level 90.

I think the reason it's like this is because SE wants gear progression to matter. If you improved your gear, you need to feel more powerful in content, with greater endurance and greater damage.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

If it's a well-geared tank, such as a paladin or warrior, you can reduce those steps.

Step 1: Spam with AoW
Step 2: Rinse and repeat

Since I am incredibly confident I don't need a healer in that dungeon. :D The excogs just wear off.

They do hit hard, it's just that the tanks you are healing are in good gear. If they went in with the worst possible gear, it does hurt a lot. The reason Holminster hurts so much is it syncs to the item level it's designed for (400).

They are generous in allowing undergeared people in, who didn't equip their quest gear, as well, to prevent people having issues doing the MSQ and that can increase the healing burden further.

This is how all leveling dungeons are. The Endwalker ones hurt a lot too. Aetherfront isn't a leveling dungeon.

A lot of tanks best heals aren't available at that level either and obviously many of them get to a point where they can heal themselves without much sweat by level 90.

I think the reason it's like this is because SE wants gear progression to matter. If you improved your gear, you need to feel more powerful in content, with greater endurance and greater damage.

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Kinda my point with this topic. If you wanna gear yourself to the max then more power to you, just make things hit harder to account for that. It shouldn't just be a situation where I pray for someone undergeared so I can do my job, should just be able to do my job all the time...even with those who min max.

Trust me, I get the wanting to feel powerful thing from being stacked gear wise. I had a friend on Primal who I would run expert and such with as a WAR. He'd straight up just tell me to not heal at all the entire time because he could do it himself. It was cool to watch at first. Now, I just kind of feel like...what's the point of having healers if that's possible? I'd rather just go in as a DPS or see healers be given more DPS options then.

No. Mob damage is fine. The moment you make them hit drastically harder is the moment where you re-evaluate tanks self sustain.

I actually really liked Holminster's damage! I'd love everything to hit a bit harder.

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Originally Posted by Derio

No. Mob damage is fine. The moment you make them hit drastically harder is the moment where you re-evaluate tanks self sustain.

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Lmao huh? tank self sustain is the highest it's ever been (excluding drk back with abyssal drain memes), mobs need to hit harder

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Can dungeon mobs still land critical hits, or did that go away at some point?

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They did away with this in Shadowbringers with their way to keep the damage up was by making everything hit about 20-30 percent stronger to offset the fact that the tanks had a permanent tank stance up. That being said, that has only made things more predictable when you see say an auto hit for 15k and you know that auto will always hit for 15k.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Lmao huh? tank self sustain is the highest it's ever been (excluding drk back with abyssal drain memes), mobs need to hit harder

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or just remove tank sustain. its too high

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

or just remove tank sustain. its too high

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It still wouldn't do anything. Dark Knight has basically no sustain besides AD and dungeons are still a laughable cakewalk, not even leveling dungeons outside of Tower of Zot and some pulls in Vanaspati are threatening.

Just tell the tank to not use his/her def cds = prob solved.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Holminster in early ShB was a bit of a special case, it was a combination of leveling dungeon where people don't completely overgear the minimum ilvl and a whole lot of absolutely terrible Gunbreakers.

I absolutely agree with wanting dungeons that have a bit more teeth (or any teeth at all really) but this is a discussion that has been going on for years at this point. The level cap dungeons aren't just easy at this point, they're completely mindless, and have been even before the introduction of Bloodwhetting.

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I feel that the best way to fix it is to do the one thing most people would clutch their pearls at right now...cap the max ilvl for current level 90/expert content dungeons, probably to the exact level the gear dropped from the dungeon is. This makes it so the content is always difficult because you can't outgear it, if you already have tome/raid gear you've already gotten as strong as you can in there, you're not getting any stronger.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I feel that the best way to fix it is to do the one thing most people would clutch their pearls at right now...cap the max ilvl for current level 90/expert content dungeons, probably to the exact level the gear dropped from the dungeon is. This makes it so the content is always difficult because you can't outgear it, if you already have tome/raid gear you've already gotten as strong as you can in there, you're not getting any stronger.

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I would certainly have to heal more often.

I'd also still spend a good 70%+ of my time on Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

They did away with this in Shadowbringers with their way to keep the damage up was by making everything hit about 20-30 percent stronger to offset the fact that the tanks had a permanent tank stance up. That being said, that has only made things more predictable when you see say an auto hit for 15k and you know that auto will always hit for 15k.

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Ah. I personally find the less predictable, spikey incoming damage to be a bit more fun -- living for that occasional moment of, "the tank will be fine *glare/malefic/broil* OMGWTFBBQ did every mob just crit at the same time!?"

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Lmao huh? tank self sustain is the highest it's ever been (excluding drk back with abyssal drain memes), mobs need to hit harder

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But then we'd need to significantly buff DRK's self sustain because the gap between it and something like Holmgang is isane.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Lmao huh? tank self sustain is the highest it's ever been (excluding drk back with abyssal drain memes), mobs need to hit harder

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Tank sustain being the highest it's ever been is exactly the problem. When dungeons are consistently farmed with a tank + 3 DPS and the healer doesn't even need to look at the tank the entire dungeon, something is very wrong. Either give healers more to do than spam one damage spell, or bring tanks back in line with DRK. Heck, even a good DRK who is spacing out their mits properly doesn't need much healing, but it's not as egregious as the rest of the tanks.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

But then we'd need to significantly buff DRK's self sustain because the gap between it and something like Holmgang is isane.

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I assume you mean Bloodwhetting, because DRK's current invuln is basically a combined Holmgang/Bloodwhetting.

Anyhow, I'm not convinced anything needs to change. Dungeons are the most casual of content, so they need to cater to the most casual of player.
A result of that is any semi-decent player is going to steamroll them.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Tank sustain being the highest it's ever been is exactly the problem. When dungeons are consistently farmed with a tank + 3 DPS and the healer doesn't even need to look at the tank the entire dungeon, something is very wrong. Either give healers more to do than spam one damage spell, or bring tanks back in line with DRK. Heck, even a good DRK who is spacing out their mits properly doesn't need much healing, but it's not as egregious as the rest of the tanks.

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Exactly, and it was in Endwalker that other tanks were brought into line with DRKs who could do a dungeon without heals a lot just because of TBN.