Underperfoming vs median vs overperforming?

Reading through many threads, I'm genuinely wondering what people here on the forums (acknowledging that forum goers are already far more invested in playing well than probably the majority of the general population), consider 'underperforming', be it as a tank/heal/or dps?

I often get the impression some find 'median' play, or people who know the basics and play within the median, to be 'underperforming'. Is there any consensus besides acknowledging things like ice mages and cure 3 spam/no dps heals are underperforming?

Also quick edit, I'm referring only to normal trials/raids/etc, not EX or savage or ultimate where min/max is probably the norm ^^

That's like hardcore or casual: every person is going to have their own definition.

I don't care to run Savage (though if I wanted to, I could put in the effort), so by absolute standards I "underperform." I generally see under/over performance as anchored by the tier and level of content you're attempting, since absolute standards would have anyone that hasn't cleared every Ultimate as an underperformer.

To me, "underperformance" is being badly under-geared for the content I'm queuing into, not bothering with job quests, not bothering to set up hotbars, and not pushing buttons. By "pushing buttons" I mean what's sensible, not necessarily what's optimal-- mashing 1 through an entire dungeon isn't sensible. An ice mage isn't sensible. Freecure fishing isn't sensible. A stanceless tank isn't sensible. A sticker collecting sam with a freestyle opener isn't optimal, but it's sensible in normal.

Doing all of those may not make it possible to pass an extreme or savage-- especially the more challenging ones.

If I cared to run Savage (or harder Extremes,) I'd need to pay more attention to my rotation-- but it feels like at the higher tiers of this game you zone into a fight with predetermined timeline of actions you must take, and any deviation at any point from that timeline is inferior and detrimental to your party. That isn't for me. Heck, I even promised a friend I'd give Savage a shot with 6.0 and bounced after I sandbagged my way through p1s. It's just not to my taste, and it's not fair to the people sandbagging me.

Even if it's not strictly true at higher tiers that "you push the right button or you're wrong," the feeling of being locked into a predetermined fate ends up making me ask myself why bother at all. Then I hit leveling roulette and watch a tank get sat on by a frog instead.

There should be no such thing as "underperforming" as a label used in normal MSQ trials. They're meant to be done by everyone. Raids? Also not a useful label. They're generally one-and-done.

Congratulations. You've just reopened a big can of worms that have, thankfully, not been hit by lightning. [Reference to the 1976 horror film Squirm]

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Reading through many threads, I'm genuinely wondering what people here on the forums (acknowledging that forum goers are already far more invested in playing well than probably the majority of the general population), consider 'underperforming', be it as a tank/heal/or dps?

I often get the impression some find 'median' play, or people who know the basics and play within the median, to be 'underperforming'. Is there any consensus besides acknowledging things like ice mages and cure 3 spam/no dps heals are underperforming?

Also quick edit, I'm referring only to normal trials/raids/etc, not EX or savage or ultimate where min/max is probably the norm ^^

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IMO In casual content the simple act of keeping your GCD rolling even somewhat effectively is well above average, I personally wouldn't grumble at anyone playing to this sort of standard.

I'm pretty much in the same mind as Van, underperforming = not reading your tooltips and not pressing buttons. I'm not too bothered if someone doesn't know the content as long as it's not a clearly stated farm.

Everyone will have a difference in opinion and what is "overperforming" for one might be "basic or under" for another.

Mine is simple and to the point.

1. Under performing - no job stone, missing skills, no mitigation, not using abilities you do have, 10+ levels discrepancy on gear.

2. As expected - just that. You do what needs to be done. Not done perfectly but you know your role.

3. Over performing - i personally don't see it as "overperforming" as much as "going above and beyond". I typically like to stay in this zone. This means even if the content is easy...you focus up and do your job the best you can. Now doesn't mean I won't have fun with it. Hell I've died typing just making jokes as we go about it. All part of the fun. However other than that...A-Game all the way.

"Underperforming", to me, would be people who don't bother to learn even the most basic parts of their job mechanics. So, ice mages, melee-only red mages, tanks who don't use CDs, dancers who don't use dance partner and use Standard/Technical Step way out of range, stuff like that.

Play however you want to Play

As long as it doesn't affect my Fun and how I play not affecting yours negatively as we both do our bests mhm. Like if were in a dungeon together and you mentioning Kaiten and not expecting me to overreact about it as I start to /doubt every boss and type in /say chat to every boss asking if they seen my Kaiten :3 ....




https://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif

KAITEN!!!
( True story. I actually do this... obviously... )

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Reading through many threads, I'm genuinely wondering what people here on the forums (acknowledging that forum goers are already far more invested in playing well than probably the majority of the general population), consider 'underperforming', be it as a tank/heal/or dps?

I often get the impression some find 'median' play, or people who know the basics and play within the median, to be 'underperforming'. Is there any consensus besides acknowledging things like ice mages and cure 3 spam/no dps heals are underperforming?

Also quick edit, I'm referring only to normal trials/raids/etc, not EX or savage or ultimate where min/max is probably the norm ^^

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Underperforming is anyone who is playing without knowing their rotations, not knowing their opener, not using all the tools they have. Which is 95% of the playerbase. 75% of Savage raiders are already trolling with their rotations and it's much worse outside.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

There should be no such thing as "underperforming" as a label used in normal MSQ trials. They're meant to be done by everyone. Raids? Also not a useful label. They're generally one-and-done.

Congratulations. You've just reopened a big can of worms that have, thankfully, not been hit by lightning. [Reference to the 1976 horror film Squirm]

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Spotted the underperformer LOL

I'll only refer to what you specifically said I. the post, since it's a extremely subjective topic. With Few agreed consensus.
<though many will try to stir for fun, or pasts scorns>

The Idea of "Basic Competency" Shows up alot.
And Depending on who you ask and in what form it's expressed in the thread.
it's either:
A. Desire players to be able to do the minimum required to finish content at the chosen level, so everyone can enjoy their tasks with minor issue.

B. Gatekeep. Gaslight. Girlboss.
Strawman. Disingenuous. Misunderstanding.
Haves. Have Nots.

C. Happy Middle.

D. Both Extremes. Nothing. Everything. Leaves Game.

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When it comes down to it, if everyone who wasn't interested in doing higher end content did enough to clear it, most wouldn't complain. and most do not.
Only when the Run/instance had exceptional exceptions going on is when an issue occurs. and the whole angry "Do your JOB" OR "You Don't Pay My Sub" shows up. Serious or not.
With the occasional YPYT/Retaliatory Troll Barrels<of Toxicity show up>

It's possibly just a bad day in the end.
But with people. Some just get emotional, or just too invested in something. Or dug too deep to give up. That it causes issues.
[Depending of the situation, it can be good or bad, but tbh, it's largely bad.]

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Those of us in here who genuinely want to talk over things wouldn't bash a new/learning player. But we also expect some fairness and respect of time/content. Since we all want a good time.

[Now for the Mandatory:
We are but a small segment/shard of the Full Community. But we are enough to represent the various aspected fragments that is the loudest here.]

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To me at least, it seems like a,
"We'll see your Aether Signature/Colors Soon..,"
(Aka, they will largely expose themselves if they are looking for trouble, for troubles sakes. Whilst others who are generally more understanding will let others know.)

Basic Competency gets the Task done.
Less than that is easily understandable if you got a reason for it.
Other than those two, Reap->Sow.
(But not by my hand at least. Your own.)

If you did more than we ever could have asked for you. You deserve more appreciation than we could give at that moment. But thanks for ____ thing that happened.

Depending on the content being run... the difference between (for example) one DPS using single-target attacks vs AOE attacks on trash over the course of an entire run... stretches a 13 minute dungeon to about 15-16 minutes (in my experience).

Same with healers. If a healer is overhealing and not leveraging their DPS capabilities, maybe another minute on top of that. If a tank isn't AOEing, the party is probably dying since the trash will destroy everyone else.

I've been in groups where 3/4 of the party has the raid weapon in week 2 or 3 of the raid cycle... and while the clear time for something like an expert dungeon is faster, maybe we are talking 30-45 seconds faster. Which is nice. But in the greater scheme of things, a party that has no deaths on bosses will do better damage than a better-geared party where someone does die to mechanics that they should have done properly.

1. Not even Trying, would want to boot: No Job Stone, No Stance Tank, Blizzard 1 spam BLM, people who constantly AFK and aren't even moving. People that use shared gear levels 1-60 with the wrong stats. I don't run into these types very often but when I do, they are memorable and infuriating.

2. Underperforming: Bards that won't use songs, Dancers who won't dance, AST that won't use cards, Tanks that don't mitigate, Healers who only spam their single target DPS skill as teammates die around them, Healers that do nothing but wait for something to heal which means they have long periods of time idle, in fact any player with long periods of not casting or doing anything. I run into these types more than I'd like but still overall it's not super common.

Newer / learning players also often underperform but I expect this and it doesn't bother me. Also severely undergeared people who are at least trying.

3. Basic Competency: You generally use your toolkit at appropriate times and engage with your job's core mechanics. You're gear is at level or only one tier behind content. A majority players fall into here in PUGS.

4. Overperforming: You are over-geared for the content and also know how to play your class optimally.

Underperforming:
- Not knowing the basics/fundamentals of your job kit. I am not referring to high-end play but just fundamentals, not AoE'ing when dealing with packs of mobs, or using AoE on single target mobs/bosses (e.g., using Soul Scythe, or Guillotine on single-target) , not knowing/doing 1>2>3, in the case of Reaper, neglecting abilities such as Whorl/Shadow of Death.
- Not having appropriate skills unlocked on a timely basis, and/or including the absence of a job stone.
- Unwilling to accept constructive feedback, e.g., if someone is genuinely trying to help, shutting them away or down, be it linking a guide from a reputable source (e.g., Balance).
- Joins parties inappropriately, especially those that may be doing duties that require an enrage. Causing an inconvenience to those around them. - This is something that can only be determined by those around them e.g., doesn't apply to those that may be doing the duties entirely pre-grouped, helping friends, etc.,

Median:
- Knowing core skills and fundamentals of your job kit, able to contribute to the party in a meaningful way, with semi/appropriate use of buffs, e.g., using Arcane Crest when familiar with the fight. A decent understanding of the opener, and making good use of the job kit, e.g., will use Soulsow/Harvest Moon.
- Able to accept constructive feedback. If someone tells you that you suck, then yes, by all means, ignore it, and by all means at your leisure, report it. But at the very least after the duty/party has concluded try and look at what you may have been doing wrong, either with the encounter, or with your job kit.
- Able to make basic use of role action abilities - Not necessarily all the time, but has at least shown potential. Whether it's using Arm's Length as an additional form of 'mitigating', using Bloodbath, or True North to aid with positional-enabled attacks - Again, not consistent, or always using, but has shown the potential of understanding their use rather than ignoring.
- Doesn't mind a slight deficit to themselves provided it shows a greater concern for other people and respecting their time/objective - What I mean by this is, don't join a killing party if you're still learning earlier parts of the fight unless you're a quick learner. Is OK with joining multiple kill parties before going onto the farm just to be consistent if they otherwise aren't? tl;dr staying in the appropriate lane.

Overperforming:
- Doesn't exist, just play to the best of your ability, even glossing over the skills for a particular job and you should in theory at least know the 1>2>3 and fundamentals of the job after some practice. Anything above what the duty requires, and what the party you're grouped with, is a bonus, really.

Underperformed is the AST I had this weekend in Aetherfont that never bothered to use a single attack spell, despite the WAR literally never falling below 90% HP. Earthly Star was the only damage they did the entire run.

everyone who does better than me is an overperformer

anyone who does worse than me is an underperformer

it is known

If someone is trying, then they're fine by me, even if they're bad.

As long as you do enough to kill the thing before it rages, then you do enough.... what is more important is if you can dodge the mechanics or whatever.

Skipping mechanics is technically overperforming and dying to enrage is under performing.

If you can repeat with everything on whatever boss boss mechanic and withgroup always getting it at 1 to 0 seconds before enrage, then you and your group is really good, you did the full Savage, EX or Ultimate doing every single mechanic and nasty thing the boss presented for you, repeating it 10 times in a row, shows a class and extreme skill level of its own.

Underperformance to me is people who:
- Don't fulfill the role expectations.

To me 'underperforming' can be one of, or combinations of:

• Consistently doing worse than trust NPCs. (You're in a lv70+ dungeon for longer than 35m? Considering average trust runs are like 23m-29m in general... yep, that's definitely underperforming, at least one of the player.)
• Doing purely what their role demands them to AND with barest minimum effort. (See that GNB who only AoE a few times then barely does anything else for like 90% in a single pull with no mits & chills on top of red carpets like a royal guard? Yep, that's the one.)
• Players who sandbag their party (un)intentionally for not at least reading & trying to understand anything about their toolkits. (See that -solo DNC- in Puppets' Bunker? Yep)
• Players who consistently repeats wrong decisions. (See that WHM who panic heal by spamming Cure III & Medica II at a tank during wall pull/SGE who spams Diagnosis & Prognosis then run dry of mana because other buttons are invisible? Yep.)

I do admit, I have harsher standard when it comes to other healers, but I guess part of the reason is because I main one.

Who cares about performance in non EX/Savage/Ult content?

Nobody expects perfection in normal mode, but imo underperforming is when you can't be bothered to do the bare minimum and are actually a liability to the rest of the party. That's not to be confused with someone that's new to the fight/job/role, because normally they're running around like headless chocobo mashing buttons in panic, I'm talking about the half-afk people: The Bard that doesn't move at all in Titan, the WHM that's casting Glare while half the raid's dead, the DRK that doesn't use Rampart once, etc.

Personally, as a healer main, the lazy healers annoy me the most. You have one job, in a role that's had its skill ceiling set insultingly low, and you still let people die??? even a Sylphie is more reliable.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Nobody expects perfection in normal mode, but imo underperforming is when you can't be bothered to do the bare minimum and are actually a liability to the rest of the party.

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I haven't encountered such players in any instance I've played since I started 8+ years ago. Either I've been lucky or you've been extremely unlucky.

By the way, the OP clarified the instances they wanted to discuss:

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Also quick edit, I'm referring only to normal trials/raids/etc, not EX or savage or ultimate where min/max is probably the norm ^^

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I haven't encountered such players in any instance I've played since I started 8+ years ago. Either I've been lucky or you've been extremely unlucky.

By the way, the OP clarified the instances they wanted to discuss:

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There's PLENTY of players like that, specially on dungeons and alliance raids. I'll take a wild guess that you either just don't notice or play almost exclusively with friends.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I haven't encountered such players in any instance I've played since I started 8+ years ago. Either I've been lucky or you've been extremely unlucky.

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They do exist but they're not that common in normal duties. I'd agree with Allegor that that you'll find them a lot in the Alliance raids where a lack of contribution is more easily hidden.

In normal stuff, I don't really care how people play to be honest. Like, naturally I have things I prefer (full pulling things, using cooldowns, using AoE etc...) but I understand that like... people are people, which means you might get someone who's never played too much of a MMO before, or games at all, and needs to take things slower to get the hang of them. You might get someone who's newer to XIV and doesn't really know how to accomplish good damage, or maybe has a flawed understanding of when to AoE/When not to (like, someone might think it's only valuable to start AoE when there's four things, versus 3, etc... 'cuz I'd figure most people don't really do the math on the abilities as it's not really... fun for most to do that before just experiencing things and the game doesn't really have feedback to showcase "Oh, on this amount of targets you did less damage, but when you tried the other idea you did better" it's something you won't really notice unless you're more in tune with things. Plus, sometimes, you never really know - the tank who's single pulling, struggling and making tons of errors? Could like, literally be a seven year old. If I notice that kind of struggling I usually, -very- politely offer some tips and see if they're interested in hearing them (and usually they are, and then thankful for the help).

I'll always have, again, pet peeves and preferences but like... I'm not gonna care to the point of being rude in chat or something, since that's just being an asshole. If I feel like someone might need some knowledge in order to have success in the instance, then I just, again, very politely offer - but I'm never genuinely mad, or genuinely frustrated. Hell, sometimes the worse... like, quality? I guess? Runs are more fun, pending on which instance and what's going on. And most people I ever offered some information for have been polite about it - either excited someone's willing to help them out, or just a decline and... yeah, I don't care to push it if someone declines. Can't say I'd understand why, but like, pushing it is just going to make a slow instance into a... miserable chat-shout-fest that people like to showcase from time to time.

I think I've only dealt with one person who was genuinely rude to my pointing something out to them? But that was in an extreme, and was due to them not actually knowing a safe spot (and thus, getting people killed) for a mechanic and I was just trying to explain that was the issue. But I mean, once it was clear they did not care, I just... y'know, left. No point in staying.

And, I mean, if you're in an instance you cannot stand or feel is too... slow or w/e, just leave instead if you don't have the energy to be polite or the care to explain something to someone having a difficult time grasping stuff. Better to leave so you're no longer having a bad time, maybe requeue for something better, than to cause the most worthless argument because abrasiveness kickstarts defensiveness.

In harder content, I do have higher expectations pending on goal of the Party Finder. But I kinda got the info this is specifically regarding normal-style content.

And, I mean, everyone sucked at anything they're good at now at some point. For how many times someone might roll their eyes as their group wipes because of someone messing something simple up, most of the time, you were also that person at some point.

+ when it comes to EX/Savage etc... there is a large degree of "Everyone starts somewhere" - but that'll also go into the PF description being the largest set for what expectations I have entering one. If it's fresh prog, or new players and progression etc... like, you really should go into that with the expectation of: We are wiping a lot. If a few wipes early on get to you, don't join those or re-assess your expectations for those groups specifically.

In my opinion, anyone who dies to the same boss mechanic several times is underperforming. It's okay to die to mechanics every once in a while (especially in new content), it happens to all of us. BUT if you don't even try to learn from your mistakes and you need a rez every minute while you constantly have the death debuff during the whole fight, then you are underperforming. To me, constantly being dead is worse than an imperfect rotation. Sorry not sorry.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Reading through many threads, I'm genuinely wondering what people here on the forums (acknowledging that forum goers are already far more invested in playing well than probably the majority of the general population), consider 'underperforming', be it as a tank/heal/or dps?

I often get the impression some find 'median' play, or people who know the basics and play within the median, to be 'underperforming'. Is there any consensus besides acknowledging things like ice mages and cure 3 spam/no dps heals are underperforming?

Also quick edit, I'm referring only to normal trials/raids/etc, not EX or savage or ultimate where min/max is probably the norm ^^

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As somebody who does savage and ultimate:

Underperfoming: Being completely ignorant of the 'Two Minute Meta' and how your job rotation lines up, and adversely affects other players when you do not play correctly, and not putting in any effort to actually learn fight mechanics.

Median: The average person who can perform the most basic GCD rotation in the correct order while having general knowledge of fights.

High End: Somebody who can perform a near perfect rotation while having a good understanding of boss mechanics and how jobs/buffs interact with eachother.

Overperforming: Min-Maxing every little detail out of a fight, from Pre-Casting mitigations so that they snapshot on the last second of a boss cast and knowing every single mechanic and how they work.

Sadly i would say that ~70% of the player base fall into what i consider the 'Underperforming' section, as the game actively does its best to not present you with even the mildest challenge that requires you to get better to progress.

In the way you worded, or your colleagues is overperforming or is underperforming. The 'Two Minute Meta' is something that only people who is min-maxing cares about.

But if you apply those criteria to any normal duty, that can be kind of... Problematic. Min-maxing some fight takes time, but normal trials are normaly just once-and-done duties. Just knowing some basic mechanics and its rotation is already enough to clear those, no? Don't you think that you're asking too much for normal content?

But if you switch to EX raids, savages or ultimates/unreals, this time you're right. But the topic is about normal content.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Reading through many threads, I'm genuinely wondering what people here on the forums (acknowledging that forum goers are already far more invested in playing well than probably the majority of the general population), consider 'underperforming', be it as a tank/heal/or dps?

I often get the impression some find 'median' play, or people who know the basics and play within the median, to be 'underperforming'. Is there any consensus besides acknowledging things like ice mages and cure 3 spam/no dps heals are underperforming?

Also quick edit, I'm referring only to normal trials/raids/etc, not EX or savage or ultimate where min/max is probably the norm ^^

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It's a lot easier to see what underperforming is at the beginning of the expansion, because it puts everyone on the same level and no one is broken up yet by gear level. Things get incredibly silly and broken once they drop savage and people get the amazing ten point higher gear that increases their numbers by about 20% over what people in standard gear can do. Underperforming is generally missing out on using abilities when someone needs to or should use them, such as feint to reduce damage from a raid wide or a tank not using reprisal.

Also, to be clear here there is no difference between savage / EX and normal mode in terms of performing. There are people who do not touch savage at all who are just as good as savage players are at their job, the only difference is that they haven't learned the crazy dance moves and what not people in savage have had to, and also likely have a happier and much more fulfilling life giving how awful a social experience it can be doing high end content in this game.

If anything, getting higher tier gear than needed for content makes people worse at the game since as soon as someone can survive some big hit without dying the game immediately favors raw damage. So this results in tanks not using as much mitigation, dps standing in attacks that normally should be avoided, healers dpsing instead of healing because raw overstats make up for it, and so on.

Under performing would be failing to meet a dps check in the content your doing it in. underperforming is relative to the content you are playing.
I believe there is no such thing as over performing and heres why. We all have to run dungeons at some point in the game and over and over for our tomes for gear progression. Now square enix has been and always will make some of the tome gear BIS for there gear cycles which is every 2 patch cycles. Where am i going with this? Ultimate players have to farm casual dungeons of course they are going to blaze through the content.

since they are forced to do such this means dungeons were built with everybody in mind. So you cant over perform ina dungeon because your top end players have to do the dungeons anyways

People can get angry at me for saying this all they want but over performing isn't a thing

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

acknowledging that forum goers are already far more invested in playing well than

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Keep in mind that most forum goers are far more invested in complaining than much of anything else. The audience you're talking about (the normal mode/casual players) are out there playing, not worrying about their level of play. That's purely a forum thing, outside of savage/extreme/etc circles.

Usually anyone complaining about normal mode/casual play is wanting to assert their own superiority in some way, which, of course, looks pretty dumb when you realize they're doing it at that level...

EDIT: Of course I saw up the thread, a well known "I am superior to all of you" poster had to have his say. I only have him NOT on ignore for just so I can laugh at how pathetic he is...