2 minute burst window vs fight design

If every job has different timers on cooldowns, burst windows and playstyles, the fight design would need to change to reflect that if we want to keep the design philosophy of "bring the player, not the job."

What's more important to you? Having fights were all jobs are more equal because every fight has largely the same design? Or every job being different and thus some jobs inevitably being better in some fights than others due to the nature of mechanics and fight design? Obviously this is still currently the case even with 2 minute burst window, but as previous expansions showed, it was pushed with a lot more disparity.

Means nothing when they intentionally put mechanics in during the 2 min burst that mess with uptime.

The 2 min burst blanket was a mistake. It need to go away.

Frankly, I'd be OK with party wide buffs going away as a whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mithron

If every job has different timers on cooldowns, burst windows and playstyles, the fight design would need to change to reflect that if we want to keep the design philosophy of "bring the player, not the job."

What's more important to you? Having fights were all jobs are more equal because every fight has largely the same design? Or every job being different and thus some jobs inevitably being better in some fights than others due to the nature of mechanics and fight design?

---

Well everyone's of the same consensus that they're sick of being forced into the "2 Minute Meta" which the developers did - that nobody asked for. As for fight design, I think Pandaemonium is one of the worst raids out there in regards to it. While I did like the lore added with the raid, there were issues from last tier that painted certain jobs as 'bad' - WAR/PLD in particular, due to WAR's low damage and PLD not fitting into burst windows until they came with the 6.3 fix. We also have problems with Crit Variance, which is exacerbated by the 2m Burst Window, making things worse in the larger scope of things in regards to clearing. Hephaistos Savage was an example of this, to the point where if you didn't bring GNB/DRK you wouldn't pass the DPS Check.

If anything, I think having some variance is good, but it should not create instances where one tank is better than the other outright for certain fights. I remember back in Heavensward we had this issue with 'Flavor of the Month' regarding what damage type would be caused: Physical or Magical. Since WAR was top, you'd either bring PLD/DRK and shirk the other one(which PLD mostly got the short stick). We're winding towards that same issue, but more on fight design and how burst windows work in regards to DRK taking advantage of downtime to regenerate MP.

Some players were just not there during the days of HW when MNK was not taken when there was a DRK in the party due to both having an Int debuff (MNK's was on Dragon Kick), how DRG was MANDATORY if you had a BRD/MCH due to the piercing debuff, and how NIN basically invalidated one of WAR's combos because if the slash debuff they both did. Then there was also AST either making WHM not taken due to Diurnal being so strong, or SCH being dropped because Nocturnal was so strong. And then there was PLD being useless against magic bosses because back then they couldn't guard magic damage with Sheltron, making DRK mandatory.

We've seen how bad disparity can get, which is also why the devs started moving away from that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Well everyone's of the same consensus that they're sick of being forced into the "2 Minute Meta" which the developers did - that nobody asked for.

---

You mean the playerbase DIDN'T ask for some of the buffs to be 60s, 30s, or 2m so they could fit into the burst windows easier? Because I distinctly recall a LOT of threads asking for that back in the day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Some players were just not there during the days of HW when MNK was not taken when there was a DRK in the party due to both having an Int debuff (MNK's was on Dragon Kick), how DRG was MANDATORY if you had a BRD/MCH due to the piercing debuff, and how NIN basically invalidated one of WAR's combos because if the slash debuff they both did. Then there was also AST either making WHM not taken due to Diurnal being so strong, or SCH being dropped because Nocturnal was so strong. And then there was PLD being useless against magic bosses because back then they couldn't guard magic damage with Sheltron, making DRK mandatory.

We've seen how bad disparity can get, which is also why the devs started moving away from that.

---

I was there. I'd rather deal with that than how bad fight design and mechanics are now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Some players were just not there during the days of HW when MNK was not taken when there was a DRK in the party due to both having an Int debuff (MNK's was on Dragon Kick), how DRG was MANDATORY if you had a BRD/MCH due to the piercing debuff, and how NIN basically invalidated one of WAR's combos because if the slash debuff they both did. Then there was also AST either making WHM not taken due to Diurnal being so strong, or SCH being dropped because Nocturnal was so strong. And then there was PLD being useless against magic bosses because back then they couldn't guard magic damage with Sheltron, making DRK mandatory.

We've seen how bad disparity can get, which is also why the devs started moving away from that.


You mean the playerbase DIDN'T ask for some of the buffs to be 60s, 30s, or 2m so they could fit into the burst windows easier? Because I distinctly recall a LOT of threads asking for that back in the day.

---

Half of those are wrong or didn't matter??

MNK wasn't taken because it was blunt. Literally who cares that they both had an INT debuff?

NIN and WAR both applying Slashing didn't matter either as both were taken and applying Slashing is literally going to happen as part of the normal rotation on both jobs. You lose and gain nothing taking both.

AST getting taken?? Because of Diurnal??????? LOL??? Noct AST replacing SCH??? In HEAVENSWARD??? Are you high? They only became meta for parses in Creator because of Balance. Literally who took it because of Diurnal in HW??????

It's not good for the game in the long term when fight design has to take into account a piss break every two minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mithron

I was there. I'd rather deal with that than how bad fight design and mechanics are now.

---

So you'd prefer to be useless against magic as a PLD again and be dropped because you're worthless in several raid fight in a tier? You'd like for your RDM to be thrown out of a group because its burst doesn't align with 90s raid buff cooldowns that the party is aligning around?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

So you'd prefer to be useless against magic as a PLD again and be dropped because you're worthless in several raid fight in a tier? You'd like for your RDM to be thrown out of a group because its burst doesn't align with 90s raid buff cooldowns that the party is aligning around?

---

PLD and RDM are already intentionally excluded anyway. Scrapping the two-minute burst meta wouldn't do them any favors, yeah, but they're already getting screwed.

Frankly, to me, the meta seems to be a huge source of stagnation for endgame fight design. Trying to force everything to work with it has resulted in an incredible amount of job homogenization and a decrease in fight mechanics that are creative or fun in favor of bosses having a spameurysm every couple minute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

PLD and RDM are already intentionally excluded anyway. Scrapping the two-minute burst meta wouldn't do them any favors, yeah, but they're already getting screwed.

Frankly, to me, the meta seems to be a huge source of stagnation for endgame fight design. Trying to force everything to work with it has resulted in an incredible amount of job homogenization and a decrease in fight mechanics that are creative or fun in favor of bosses having a spameurysm every couple minute.

---

Unfortunately, the players make the meta, so it's the players fault things come to this. They'll never be appeased.

https://www.darklegacycomics.com/comics/558.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

Half of those are wrong or didn't matter??

MNK wasn't taken because it was blunt. Literally who cares that they both had an INT debuff?

NIN and WAR both applying Slashing didn't matter either as both were taken and applying Slashing is literally going to happen as part of the normal rotation on both jobs. You lose and gain nothing taking both.

AST getting taken?? Because of Diurnal??????? LOL??? Noct AST replacing SCH??? In HEAVENSWARD??? Are you high? They only became meta for parses in Creator because of Balance. Literally who took it because of Diurnal in HW??????

---

Monk only had 2 things going for it in HW, one was being the highest damage DPS and the other being the INT down debuff. Monk's damage wasn't high enough to put it above the piercing meta or Ninja's Trick Attack and the INT debuff being applied by DRK, who was also the 2nd tank you would take in the vast majority of encounters meant Monk literally bought nothing to the fight, so why bring it along? If DRK didn't have the INT down, it might have been different.

Whilst they both had the slashing debuff, Warrior applied it as part of it's rotation and Ninja could forgo it, replacing it with another Aeolian Edge for more damage. Ninja did apply it once at the start of an encounter to allow Warrior to get enmity, but after that, Dancing Edge was never used.

I cannot comment on healers, however, if your group is capable of surviving and you bring more DPS, you are being taken. I do remember AST being cited as a very very capable healer, outdoing one of WHM or SCH but again, I do not remember the specifics.

So really, they DID matter and it is why the standard come of WAR/DRK/NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH/2 healers was established, where they dominated the game not only in terms of damage, but overall survivability.

My favorite thing is when the devs say the 2m meta makes it easier to design and balance fights, but then they set up downtime/cutscene moments right as the 2 minute mark comes up.
Nothing more lovely in this railroaded-rotation game than saving up only to get cucked by an add phase, or a cutscene where the boss flaps a cape or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

If DRK didn't have the INT down, it might have been different.

---

next thing you're going to say is that rage of halone was taken because of applying str down

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Whilst they both had the slashing debuff, Warrior applied it as part of it's rotation and Ninja could forgo it, replacing it with another Aeolian Edge for more damage.

---

You're right about this but WAR was not taken for Slashing. It was taken because it just was a better tank than Paladin in HW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I do remember AST being cited as a very very capable healer, outdoing one of WHM or SCH but again, I do not remember the specifics.

---

This was never true in Gordias and even Midas. It only got better after multiple rounds of buffs.

Anyways, 90% of the reason HW meta was an issue is because FFLogs didn't have rDPS back then. I'm like 99% convinced of this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

1. next thing you're going to say is that rage of halone was taken because of applying str down

2. You're right about this but WAR was not taken for Slashing. It was taken because it just was a better tank than Paladin in HW.

3. This was never true in Gordias and even Midas. It only got better after multiple rounds of buffs.

4. Anyways, 90% of the reason HW meta was an issue is because FFLogs didn't have rDPS back then. I'm like 99% convinced of this.

---

1. Nope, the reason we can talk about INT down is because they were both applied during the jobs highest damage rotation, aka. they lost nothing by applying it. Strength Down however, was not part of PLDs normal rotation and so it was never applied unless the PLD also reduced it's own strength.

2. Yes, however I never stated it was taken purely for the slashing down. It was the best tank by far and slashing down was icing on the already delicious cake.

3. Knew it was the case AST was buffed massively, just didn't know exactly where the tipping point was.

4. Weirdly enough, you don't need FFLogs to do the maths for you, you can do it yourself, which is why things ended up as they were.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Some players were just not there during the days of HW when MNK was not taken when there was a DRK in the party due to both having an Int debuff (MNK's was on Dragon Kick), how DRG was MANDATORY if you had a BRD/MCH due to the piercing debuff, and how NIN basically invalidated one of WAR's combos because if the slash debuff they both did. Then there was also AST either making WHM not taken due to Diurnal being so strong, or SCH being dropped because Nocturnal was so strong. And then there was PLD being useless against magic bosses because back then they couldn't guard magic damage with Sheltron, making DRK mandatory.

We've seen how bad disparity can get, which is also why the devs started moving away from that.

---

I think there is more than just black and white here. And when you look for a member in PF you don't care who you get after a couple of minutes have passed. Not everyone plays this game with their 7 best friends who only take the bestest at everything jobs. So far we've seen both sides of the spectrum and I'd gladly take back what we had as opposed to what we have now. Especially with the ilvl cheese.