Samurai LB is still BS

It needs to nerf. It is total BS they can instakill you from full health with a single move.

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Originally Posted by Belle_Velvet

It needs to nerf. It is total BS they can instakill you from full health with a single move.

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Oh boy, its another one of these threads!

No. You deserve to die everytime you get LB'd by a Samurai. Their toolkit is limited enough as it is. If you can't watch your AOE around a Samurai, Can't keep track of them putting chiten up, or generally fall for their easy bait then you have bought, and paid full price for that OHKO.

The toolkit being underwhelming is not an excuse for a job to disproportionately rely on its LB to remain viable.

( a good sam can also delete ranges in no time with all the cc it has, not to be trifled with )

I mean to be fair, even without the instant kill a Kuzushi-Zantetsuken would still be 30,000 damage in an AOE with a dash - which I think would be fine in a world where Skyshatter wouldnt crank the damage to 40,000 from the inner ring and with a 20,000 outer ring hit (note: all under effect of Geirskogul which is standard practice).

I personally would not be opposed to removing the instant kill component as long as the Guard pierce on Kuzushi targets retains and the damage being amped in general.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

Can't keep track of them putting chiten up, or generally fall for their easy bait then you have bought, and paid full price for that OHKO.

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And its a good reason for me to avoid pvp entirely. Because this is a false reason, as mobas already have teached me.

These OHKOs are anoying because you cannot control your teammates. Having a teammate constantly fall for this without being able to realy act against it is a major cause for frustration. Nearly all mobas are trying to avoid OHKOs as much as possible, as its unhealthy for balance as it always means someone has to babysit the bad player, and that often takes a lot of resources away that could be used for your proper teammates. Yet you are forced to, because feeding the enemy is generaly worse.

Not having OHKO is healthier since it gives the bad player a better sense of progression in surviving. When they realize an early retreat means they survive more often, it helps at having them learn. But a OHKO is a binary result: it happens, or it doesnt. There is no middle step to learn any progression. And binary systems like that are generaly just broken.

And this isnt a l2p issue either. As especialy at higher skill levels, these binary OHKO mechanics are deemed unwanted because instead of relying on skill, it becomes a guessing game in timing. To realy measure skill, you want reliable outcomes and not have to deal with something that feels like complete rng. And yes, you can guess moments in which they will use such abilities, but is that realy worth it to waste a cooldown on (which if misguessed gives the enemy a free shot anyway)?

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I mean to be fair, even without the instant kill a Kuzushi-Zantetsuken would still be 30,000 damage in an AOE with a dash - which I think would be fine in a world where Skyshatter wouldnt crank the damage to 40,000 from the inner ring and with a 20,000 outer ring hit (note: all under effect of Geirskogul which is standard practice).

I personally would not be opposed to removing the instant kill component as long as the Guard pierce on Kuzushi targets retains and the damage being amped in general.

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Respectfully think your math isn't mathing right there

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Originally Posted by Vatom

Respectfully think your math isn't mathing right there

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Damage values:

Zantetsuken base damage: 24000
Skyshatter INNER circle base: 32000 (2 x 16000)
Skyshatter OUTER ring base: 16000

Skyshatter damage tooltip:
// Delivers an attack with a potency of 16,000 to all nearby enemies. (10y radius)
// Potency is doubled when targets are within 5 yalms.

Geirskogul damage increase: +25% for 10s
Hissatsu: Chiten's "Kuzushi" effect: +25% dmg to target with the debuff (from SAM only)

Skyshatter OUTER: 16000 + (16000 * 0.25) = 16000 + 4000 = 20000
Skyshatter INNER: 32000 + (32000 * 0.25) = 32000 + 8000 = 40000
Zantetsuken (if it didnt have instantkill): 24000 + (24000 * 0.25) = 24000 + 6000 = 30000

Respectfully going to disagree, I mathed it and tested it.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

Oh boy, its another one of these threads!

No. You deserve to die everytime you get LB'd by a Samurai. Their toolkit is limited enough as it is. If you can't watch your AOE around a Samurai, Can't keep track of them putting chiten up, or generally fall for their easy bait then you have bought, and paid full price for that OHKO.

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Yeah, but actually not really.

The net code is janky enough where you can attack a SAM who doesn't have chiten up, but if they activate it at the same time and you get unlucky enough with the server tick registering it first, you're SOL. This is even worse for MCH and BRD who have a short cast time on their main attack, which makes it even easier for a SAM to slip in a chiten before an attack even easier. Good luck to anyone that has a moderately higher ping, their chances of falling victim to this sort of thing is even higher.

So this notion that 'you deserve to die' is straight up BS. There are absolutely cases where you can do everything right from your perspective, but still end up triggering Kuzushi.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I personally would not be opposed to removing the instant kill component as long as the Guard pierce on Kuzushi targets retains and the damage being amped in general.

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Think 20k-25k with guard pierce would be enough if they also look at buffing sam overall a little to make them a bigger threat in regular non lb fights.

instant death on less then 50% hp is fine, but when you kill somebody with a samurai combo lb it is akin to killing somebody with a stage hazard... you may have killed them but you did not really earn it.
I mean if you need samurai lb to kill somebody you're just sad and i'll laugh at you when somebody emotes on your body.

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Originally Posted by Xylira

Yeah, but actually not really.

The net code is janky enough where you can attack a SAM who doesn't have chiten up, but if they activate it at the same time and you get unlucky enough with the server tick registering it first, you're SOL. This is even worse for MCH and BRD who have a short cast time on their main attack, which makes it even easier for a SAM to slip in a chiten before an attack even easier. Good luck to anyone that has a moderately higher ping, their chances of falling victim to this sort of thing is even higher.

So this notion that 'you deserve to die' is straight up BS. There are absolutely cases where you can do everything right from your perspective, but still end up triggering Kuzushi.

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Can confirm that as a MCH main the times I die to this is usually because either of shitty tab target, unfortunate AoE cleaves (rare on mch), or being screwed by cast times. Although for the latter it's just better to ignore the SAM just a little before their LB is filled just to be sure.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

Oh boy, its another one of these threads!

No. You deserve to die everytime you get LB'd by a Samurai. Their toolkit is limited enough as it is. If you can't watch your AOE around a Samurai, Can't keep track of them putting chiten up, or generally fall for their easy bait then you have bought, and paid full price for that OHKO.

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Just remember: Every time someone goes "Another one of these threads LOL git gud it's your fault", there was a SAM player who whined and screamed that it was unfair for a MCH to have a ten-step 3% chance to OHKO them, that it wasn't "fun".

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Originally Posted by BaroLlyonesse

Just remember: Every time someone goes "Another one of these threads LOL git gud it's your fault", there was a SAM player who whined and screamed that it was unfair for a MCH to have a ten-step 3% chance to OHKO them, that it wasn't "fun".

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lmao anybody who complains about MCH having the 3% chance to one hit is just mad the mch won the lotto on them.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

lmao anybody who complains about MCH having the 3% chance to one hit is just mad the mch won the lotto on them.

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Well, yeah. Suddenly dropping dead purely due to chance with no way to see it coming let alone counter it isn't fun or compelling gameplay.

I actually prefer the new way chainsaw works when playing MCH. It's far more reliably useful and kills with it feel earned, unlike the previous random one shots.

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Originally Posted by Xylira

Well, yeah. Suddenly dropping dead purely due to chance with no way to see it coming let alone counter it isn't fun or compelling gameplay.

I actually prefer the new way chainsaw works when playing MCH. It's far more reliably useful and kills with it feel earned, unlike the previous random one shots.

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It isn't particularly fun, but neither is not being able to control or predict when a SAM dashes toward you and into your bioblaster moments before they OHKO you. Nor is it fun when a NIN hits you with some assassination because you're the one class that has absolutely zero mobility options. Either of those two scenarios would be better if MCH got some kind of Repelling Shot option, like giving our shotguns some launching recoil. But somehow, those are okay when having that 3% chance is waaaay too overpowered and made them have less fun. :(

I would be more happy with Chainsaw if they hadn't made it effectively a match for Drill. What they should've done is made it ignore DR when Analysis is up, not give it more damage. Make MCH dangerous. It won't be overpowered because again, it's the end of a ten-step chain with cool-downs, not a one-button instant.

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lmao anybody who complains about MCH having the 3% chance to one hit is just mad the mch won the lotto on them.

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Kougaon. I remember when the change to MCH nerfed Chainsaw, and that was his argument. An entire "thank god that was so overpowered where it would just happen and kill people but that OHKO from SAM is way overdue and needed to happen." It basically rolled down to "in this chaos of combat, there is something I cannot control, and therefore it is not fair that someone else's action might kill me, and that's not fun for me, and therefore should not be there". I can entirely understand a random PvE skill that makes you lose being unfair, but the idea that you're mad because another player outmaneuvered you to stay alive long enough to roll a 3% to kill you...

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Originally Posted by BaroLlyonesse

Just remember: Every time someone goes "Another one of these threads LOL git gud it's your fault", there was a SAM player who whined and screamed that it was unfair for a MCH to have a ten-step 3% chance to OHKO them, that it wasn't "fun".

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Are you that whiner? Because you sound like someone who would be that whiner. Nobody cares about MCH 3% OHKO. If your team was losing before the 3% OHKO. It doesn't have game shattering consequences when it goes off, and even in CC if you wipe the enemy team, and you were losing before the OHKO went off, you'll likely just go back to losing again when they all respawn in ~10 seconds.

Sam players are busy whining about how unresponsive servers are, and people with Chiten debuff not getting affected by the LB. But I guess you wouldn't know that, you're on the recieving end of their LBs.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

And its a good reason for me to avoid pvp entirely. Because this is a false reason, as mobas already have teached me.

These OHKOs are anoying because you cannot control your teammates. Having a teammate constantly fall for this without being able to realy act against it is a major cause for frustration. Nearly all mobas are trying to avoid OHKOs as much as possible, as its unhealthy for balance as it always means someone has to babysit the bad player, and that often takes a lot of resources away that could be used for your proper teammates. Yet you are forced to, because feeding the enemy is generaly worse.

Not having OHKO is healthier since it gives the bad player a better sense of progression in surviving. When they realize an early retreat means they survive more often, it helps at having them learn. But a OHKO is a binary result: it happens, or it doesnt. There is no middle step to learn any progression. And binary systems like that are generaly just broken.

And this isnt a l2p issue either. As especialy at higher skill levels, these binary OHKO mechanics are deemed unwanted because instead of relying on skill, it becomes a guessing game in timing. To realy measure skill, you want reliable outcomes and not have to deal with something that feels like complete rng. And yes, you can guess moments in which they will use such abilities, but is that realy worth it to waste a cooldown on (which if misguessed gives the enemy a free shot anyway)?

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Pretty much nailed it there.
There are people on this forum who are completely and utterly incapable of understanding that thinking a mechanic is badly designed doesn't necessarily mean "SKILL ISSUE LOL I CANT DEAL WITH IT!!1one"
I've probably said it a dozen times already, and I'll keep reiterating:

The SAM LB is not overpowered.
The SAM LB has counterplay.
The SAM LB can be avoided by paying close attention.

However:

The punishment for one millisecond of inattention or one minuscule misclick should not be a guaranteed instant death.

Simple as.

I don't really care if it's a skill issue on my part. The SAM LB is a problem. It's not fun, it's not enjoyable. At the very least, let me use Guard to mitigate some of the damage.

I'd be happier with a buffed SAM LB like advanced earlier by Reinhart above without the oneshot effect. The dash AoE on its own is a unique shape, and the amount of damage it deals on full parties is nothing to scoff at, much like SMN and DRG LB, which are table turning LBs already. DRG has the benefit of doing the spikier damage but is also telegraphed and guardable, while SMN is instant (hard to guard against it unless pure luck). SAM just takes longer to charge, and I think it's okay since it goes through guards anyway.

If the "you're just bad if you get hit by it" crowd is unhappy about that, then I actually pause to wonder why it would be so, since it's so easy not to get hit by it to begin with, which makes it underwhelming or bad by definition right? So they should be happy about such a change with potential buffs (charge time or damage).

If they just removed most of the cast timers the majority of SAM wouldn't need their LB to kill people. I get it that it's cool to see this wind up attack, but it doesn't mesh well with fighting people who aren't mobs and move purify etc. Like why do Ogi and Midare need to have a cast timer? Feels weird. Imagine if Wyrmwind Thrust and Heavens' Thrust had cast timers. People would quit playing DRG.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If the "you're just bad if you get hit by it" crowd is unhappy about that, then I actually pause to wonder why it would be so, since it's so easy not to get hit by it to begin with, which makes it underwhelming or bad by definition right? So they should be happy about such a change with potential buffs (charge time or damage).

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The problem lies at many parts that act together. And needs a solution that handles a lot of those cases.

And a few key aspects i noticed:
- No warning
- Too easily accidentaly triggered

While the strong hit can be desired, its instant kill is not. However, with a proper warning, that insta kill might be. So for that i might have a suggestion:
Chiten now instead of having a binary Kuzushi, Kuzushi now works based on stacks. And for example each stack reduces the effect of guard by 20%, capping at 5 (we can also do 3 stacks and 33%, or basicly any value with a fixed point for the ohko), When maxed, the player gets a highlight (to mark the guaranteed instant kill and help the SAM).
This means that in teamfights, you can now take some risks as instead of instantly having a full mark, you can watch the stacks you obtained. And yes, there will still be that binary point of 4 and 5 stacks, but it enables a newer player to for example take 3 as their treshold for care, instead of 4. It gives a progression of survival, while still involving a risk/reward situation, that can backfire.

And yes, you can be sure newer/bad players will die by this because they dont track the stacks. Which then is a l2p, but its one they can at least be hinted to, and learn track! As its no longer purely binary. It requires a bit more setup.

As a bonus effect, SAM now can also use this as a teamfight buff even without LB. Making guard weaker for everyone can still be a strong effect and on that offset the cheese strategy. And its a lot more likely to trigger in that case, as people wont be worried as quickly, and are a lot more likely to just take those 2 stacks.

If we're going to be nerfing the limit break can we make sure that it's fully functional?

I honestly hope that it's just me doj g something wrong, but I'm having difficulty dealing damage with the limit break against those that are using Guard. Like I'm not getting the piercing effect at all.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

Are you that whiner? Because you sound like someone who would be that whiner. Nobody cares about MCH 3% OHKO. If your team was losing before the 3% OHKO. It doesn't have game shattering consequences when it goes off, and even in CC if you wipe the enemy team, and you were losing before the OHKO went off, you'll likely just go back to losing again when they all respawn in ~10 seconds.

Sam players are busy whining about how unresponsive servers are, and people with Chiten debuff not getting affected by the LB. But I guess you wouldn't know that, you're on the recieving end of their LBs.

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If no one cares about the 3% OHKO, there wouldn't have been rejoicing when it was eliminated. And it does sound like you weren't playing when that 3% existed, because people were constantly complaining that it was unfair and unfun.

I got hit with that 3% like 2-3 times in total since it was introduced up untill it was now removed, couldn't care less about it being that way with how low a chance it was.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Damage values:

Zantetsuken base damage: 24000
Skyshatter INNER circle base: 32000 (2 x 16000)
Skyshatter OUTER ring base: 16000

Skyshatter damage tooltip:
// Delivers an attack with a potency of 16,000 to all nearby enemies. (10y radius)
// Potency is doubled when targets are within 5 yalms.

Geirskogul damage increase: +25% for 10s
Hissatsu: Chiten's "Kuzushi" effect: +25% dmg to target with the debuff (from SAM only)

Skyshatter OUTER: 16000 + (16000 * 0.25) = 16000 + 4000 = 20000
Skyshatter INNER: 32000 + (32000 * 0.25) = 32000 + 8000 = 40000
Zantetsuken (if it didnt have instantkill): 24000 + (24000 * 0.25) = 24000 + 6000 = 30000

Respectfully going to disagree, I mathed it and tested it.

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Ah I see you atdded buff to dash my bad
that almost never happens unless you have great server ping

Limited toolkit lol half of your single attacks take away an unfair amount of HP compared to many classes and the LB is just ridiculous. I guess I would at least be happy if they bumped the charge time to like 300s or so :3

At least with Nin i only get one hit deleted if I am not paying attention to health

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Originally Posted by Belle_Velvet

Limited toolkit lol half of your single attacks take away an unfair amount of HP compared to many classes and the LB is just ridiculous. I guess I would at least be happy if they bumped the charge time to like 300s or so :3

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To be honest I'm more neutral on SAM supposedly being subpar at higher levels in CC. It's definitely less performing than at lower levels for obvious reason, but the kit still remains a gigantic threat for ranged players, for the sheer amount of damage, the dashes that bind, Chiten making it great at dueling, etc. I also do feel that a lot of people like saying it's an easy job to pull off, but the only thing they have in mind is mIdArE and zAnTeTsUkEn. The actual amount of SAMs that use their toolkit correctly is ridiculously low.

If anything it's NIN that's underperforming. I've never felt so indifferent to seeing a Ninja try and harass me. They hit like wet noodles (but i'll admit that if their team supports them, they're great at securing kills with all the ranged crowd control).

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Originally Posted by BaroLlyonesse

If no one cares about the 3% OHKO, there wouldn't have been rejoicing when it was eliminated. And it does sound like you weren't playing when that 3% existed, because people were constantly complaining that it was unfair and unfun.

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I main MCH in CC, so yes. I was there when the 3% chainsaw existed. You ignored my point that it ultimately Has little, to no impact on the matches it goes off in. And who is rejoicing? Your short little personal anectdotes of people being happy its gone doesn't mean that people overall care that its gone, or have even noticed its absence.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

I main MCH in CC, so yes. I was there when the 3% chainsaw existed. You ignored my point that it ultimately Has little, to no impact on the matches it goes off in. And who is rejoicing? Your short little personal anectdotes of people being happy its gone doesn't mean that people overall care that its gone, or have even noticed its absence.

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this is a 100% BS its one thing for a an LB to OHKO (which im ok with) but not a reg skill, to say it has never impacted a game is ignoring the fact that it drops a enemy hp by 95% regardless of the 3% rate that fact alone affects any game

In CC, MCH that actually used Analysis on a 3% OHKO were novices tbh... That was all but good odds, and you had way better, reliable uses for it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

In CC, MCH that actually used Analysis on a 3% OHKO were novices tbh... That was all but good odds, and you had way better, reliable uses for it.

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On paper and in practice, completely true. However random chance to just instagib someone is generally seen as unfun to more people getting hit by it than the user is having fun pulling it off.

Getting deleted for having done nothing wrong because RNG said yes is why Random Crits were always controversial in Team Fortress 2. "My mistake was not killing you before you pressed a single button and losing to RNG" - not exactly great design imho.

So... good riddance.

I wasn't arguing to keep that stupid mechanic, so good riddance to it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I wasn't arguing to keep that stupid mechanic, so good riddance to it.

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My misunderstand then. Nevertheless an OK continuation for anyone who'd think otherwise, so I'll keep the post up.

yay they removed Kaiten. Mission accomploshed

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Originally Posted by Belle_Velvet

yay they removed Kaiten. Mission accomploshed

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What do you mean, it's right here and with endlessly more meaning than before.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...705_121026.jpg

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

What do you mean, it's right here and with endlessly more meaning than before.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...705_121026.jpg

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charge your phone you menace!

Wise men hit into chiten.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

charge your phone you menace!

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You underestimate the power of my phone at 2%, this absolute unit goes LONG at that point it is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Belle_Velvet

It needs to nerf. It is total BS they can instakill you from full health with a single move.

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Oh me, oh my, would you look at this...
Ways to survive SAM LB in PVP (Assuming you're at Max HP)

Tanks:
PLD - Shelltron or Hallowed (12k potency shield / Immunity)
WAR - Bloodwhetting (10% HP shield)
GNB - Tank Junction Powder Combo (15k potency shield)
DRK - Blackest Night or Eventide (8k potency shield / Immunity)

Melee:
NIN - Huton (16k potency shield)
MNK - Thunderclap (6k potency shield)
SAM - Ogi Namikiri or Kaeshi: Namikiri (8k potency shield on 2 target hits for both hits)
DRG - Sky Shatter (24k potency shield)
RPR - Crest (12k potency shield)

Ranged:
MCH - Bishop Turret (6k potency shield)
BRD - dead; Bind and pray
DNC - Honing Ovation (5k potency shield at max stacks)

Magic:
BLM - Burst (16k potency shield)
RDM - White Shift Melee Combo (18k potency shield)
SMN - Radiant Aegis (10k potency shield)

Healer:
WHM - Aquaveil (8k potency shield)
AST - Double Cast Benefic (4k potency shield)
SCH - Adlo and Seraphic Veil (6k potency shield or 4k potency shield)
SGE - Eukrasian Dosis (8k potency shield)