Did Zenos ruin Endwalker

Literally what is the point of him existing

Zenos and Meteion did.
Zenos legit could have his proper death in Stormblood.
Meteion concept was good, but her presentation and development were terrible, specially for a 10 years arc final antagonist.

He's the antithesis for the player character.

Basically the player character is Rising of the shield hero and Zenos is Redo of Healer.

i didnt know endwalker was ruined

Zenos should have died in Stormblood.

If anything 'ruined' Endwalker it was Fandaniel and the towers. - Majority of post-ShB expansion wasted on it, and 40% of Endwalker was wasted on it. Sure, had purpose, but ultimately came at a detriment to the story.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

i didnt know endwalker was ruined

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Kind of got ruined when coming out of the Dead Ends you're greeted by the most obnoxious villain and forced to let him help you and get forced into a 1v1 fight with him.

The final boss of Endwalker is literally a 1v1 fight with him???

I kind of expect Zeno's to beat the crap out of Meteon(Endsinger) because he gave me the impression to be emotionless in the pursuit of his own gaol. Hence makes him impervious against the power of dynamis.

I'm fine with Zeno's plot in Endwalker. I'm just disappointed that Zeno's part during the Endsinger fight only servers as a mount for WoL. He could be so much more.

I love the wording on the facebook post from SE

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"Get ready to assemble a team of friends or NPCs (and a warm coat) to brave The Aetherfont! ������*❄️"

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Fallen low have we lmao

These devs dont need Zenos or anybody else to ruin EW, they are doing it well themselves

Zenos not dying in Stormblood ruined everything he's touched since then.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

I love the wording on the facebook post from SE



Fallen low have we lmao

These devs dont need Zenos or anybody else to ruin EW, they are doing it well themselves

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I know you played the game at least moderately in Shadowbringers by your own admission, so what is your excuse for pretending not to know about the Trust system? Or is the phrasing offending you? Or are you reaching?

If we're talking about story, I think what "ruined" Endwalker was the pacing.

I don't really know what SE's obsession is with chores but it kills the stakes when you go into an area with the context being "there's no time to waste" and then the game tells you "lol no, the ship is broke kekw, go ask people what's wrong" despite it being the actual end of the world.

It's the same problem I had with the Talos Minecart portion in Shadowbringers. Our ship crashed, we're being pursued blah blah blah but we have to help this rando with his lack of closure and the cherry on top is, we solved it with a Deus Ex Machina.

There's a lot of times in the MSQ where I wish they would just get on with it. It's literally just padding.


God the moon bunny portion pissed me off so much.

I'll bite a bit.

I don't think Zenos ruined Endwalker. I think a lot of people really like him, and enjoyed seeing his conclusion (please god, let that be his conclusion). I'll admit, him showing up and having a couple of the best quotes in the expansion doesn't hurt as well:

"I assume this is your prey. But why does it still live? Surely it is no match for you"

"I would have thought you to be above something so banal as despair. Am I mistaken?"

Especially after 20 hours of "oh woe is us", having him just laugh it off was pretty funny.

No, Creative Business Unit III did.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

If we're talking about story, I think what "ruined" Endwalker was the pacing. I don't really know what SE's obsession is with chores but it kills the stakes when you go into an area with the context being "there's no time to waste" and then the game tells you "lol no, the ship is broke kekw, go ask people what's wrong" despite it being the actual end of the world.. It's the same problem I had with the Talos Minecart portion in Shadowbringers. Our ship crashed, we're being pursued blah blah blah but we have to help this rando with his lack of closure and then we solved it with a Deus Ex Machina.

There's a lot of times in the MSQ where I wish they would just get on with it. It's literally just padding.

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People always point to the trolley portion in Amh Araeng, but Kholusia pt2 is pretty guilty of that as well. In fact, it has "the epic music playing while you're forced to do chores for the Tholl" thing too. Just like Labyrinthos pt2 has that going on, and I'm not sure why they chose to make the same mistake twice.

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

I know you played the game at least moderately in Shadowbringers by your own admission, so what is your excuse for pretending not to know about the Trust system? Or is the phrasing offending you? Or are you reaching?

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I'm sorry what ? I am literally calling out the trust system, that's exactly what I'm doing, looks like that went right over your head

Encouraging players to play with NPC's instead of actual players in an MMO is... something else, and is not normal.

Good try for a "gotcha" moment though, sadly it failed miserably

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

People always point to the trolley portion in Amh Araeng, but Kholusia pt2 is pretty guilty of that as well. In fact, it has "the epic music playing while you're forced to do chores for the Tholl" thing too. Just like Labyrinthos pt2 has that going on, and I'm not sure why they chose to make the same mistake twice.

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Oh yeah I hated that too. There's just a lot of it sprinkled in that it's just so fucking boring.
Like jesus please. Cut out the fluff and relegate it to sidequests or something.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Oh yeah I hated that too. There's just a lot of it sprinkled in that it's just so fucking boring.
Like jesus please. Cut out the fluff and relegate it to sidequests or something.

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You're not wrong. Even as someone who likes the story, there are indeed moments of iffy pacing. The thing is that they've always been there, which a lot of people overlook. Not to say that makes that suddenly a good thing, but it's basically a staple of XIV writing. Not like I'm against a bit of downtime either. Buildup and climax are a very normal part of writing, but XIV does have a habit of reaaaally stretching it out.

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

You're not wrong. Even as someone who likes the story, there are indeed moments of iffy pacing. The thing is that they've always been there, which a lot of people overlook. Not to say that makes that suddenly a good thing, but it's basically a staple of XIV writing. Not like I'm against a bit of downtime either. Buildup and climax are a very normal part of writing, but XIV does have a habit of reaaaally stretching it out.

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I don't think a bad element being a "staple" is proper justification of it being there. A lot of things that were removed were "staples of XIV" at one point.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I don't think a bad element being a "staple" is proper justification of it being there. A lot of things that were removed were "staples of XIV" at one point.

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That's why I prefaced it by saying "not that that makes it suddenly a good thing."

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

I'm sorry what ? I am literally calling out the trust system, that's exactly what I'm doing, looks like that went right over your head

Encouraging players to play with NPC's instead of actual players in an MMO is... something else, and is not normal.

Good try for a "gotcha" moment though, sadly it failed miserably

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The Trust system that has existed since Shadowbringers. Which you are treating as an Endwalker ill and a sign that the world is ending now. Lmao.

If you are going to have an overbearing character like Zenos, forcing his way into the player's face, the only proper path is to allow the player to decide how to deal with him.

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

That's why I prefaced it by saying "not that that makes it suddenly a good thing."

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I am addressing the part where it's "always been there". Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're implying.
It being always been there isn't really justification that it should always be there.

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

That's why I prefaced it by saying "not that that makes it suddenly a good thing."


The Trust system that has existed since Shadowbringers. Which you are treating as an Endwalker ill and a sign that the world is ending now. Lmao.

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I am saying that it is very much encouraged now even on a public facebook post, which really is not normal, I'm not sure why you keep trying to reach for gotcha's, but it aint quite working

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I am addressing the part where it's "always been there". Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're implying.
It being always been there isn't really justification that it should always be there.

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And I didn't justify it. I said it's always been there so it's not some newfangled ShB/EW problem like a lot of people seem to imply. That's not meant to be justification, just perspective. If it irked me enough to be dealbreaker, I'd have quit in ARR, not Endwalker. Your thoughts on it are your prerogative and completely valid, and I've even agreed that it can get ludicrous at times.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

I am saying that it is very much encouraged now even on a public facebook post, which really is not normal, I'm not sure why you keep trying to reach for gotcha's, but it aint quite working

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Why isn't it normal? Are they supposed to be hush-hush about a system that has been very much public since its inception? It's not some closely held secret. I'm not "gotcha"-ing you. You're doing that all to yourself by making the most inane and hamfisted posts.

As long as we somehow see him again, I'm more than happy with how EW Zenos went :3

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

And I didn't justify it. I said it's always been there so it's not some newfangled ShB/EW problem like a lot of people seem to imply. That's not meant to be justification, just perspective. If it irked me enough to be dealbreaker, I'd have quit in ARR, not Endwalker. Your thoughts on it are your prerogative and completely valid, and I've even agreed that it can get ludicrous at times.

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Ahh then yeah fair. I've kinda overlooked it just because it didn't really feel that egregious in the previous expansions.
I think it's because the stakes weren't really that high, so I didn't mind it that much, and it made sense in the story.

Like Azys Lla was executed relatively well. It having a shield made sense, and us trying to pierce it regardless made sense.

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

And I didn't justify it. I said it's always been there so it's not some newfangled ShB/EW problem like a lot of people seem to imply. That's not meant to be justification, just perspective. If it irked me enough to be dealbreaker, I'd have quit in ARR, not Endwalker. Your thoughts on it are your prerogative and completely valid, and I've even agreed that it can get ludicrous at times.

Why isn't it normal? Are they supposed to be hush-hush about a system that has been very much public since its inception? It's not some closely held secret. I'm not "gotcha"-ing you. You're doing that all to yourself by making the most inane and hamfisted posts.

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Not gonna repeat my previous point, if you cant read that's your problem not mine

/shrug

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

I can read just fine. Maybe what you're saying just isn't an issue.

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It's almost like people have different opinions, no way, tell me it aint so

not wasting anymore posts for your pathetic trolling as I'm almost out of them for the day

Thank you for your "great" input lmao

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You're welcome! I hope it helped. Get some fresh air.

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Dont you worry I am, I am hanging out with my friends in the game, thank you for your concern though ; )

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

Not gonna repeat my previous point, if you cant read that's your problem not mine

/shrug

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I can read just fine. Maybe what you're saying just isn't an issue.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

It's almost like people have different opinions, no way, tell me it aint so

not wasting anymore posts for your pathetic trolling as I'm almost out of them for the day

Thank you for your "great" input lmao

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You're welcome! I hope it helped. Get some fresh air.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Ahh then yeah fair. I've kinda overlooked it just because it didn't really feel that egregious in the previous expansions.
I think it's because the stakes weren't really that high, so I didn't mind it that much, and it made sense in the story.

Like Azys Lla was executed relatively well. It having a shield made sense, and us trying to pierce it regardless made sense.

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I think it's also to do with the passage of time. Clichéd as it may be to pin it on people's memories, and I'm definitely not going to insist it has to be the case with you or any other individual who takes issue with the game's story as it is, I see a lot of Shadowbringers fellating that very overtly leaves out the multitude of sore spots and pacing errors, only mentioning the highs they experienced.

And that's just one expansion ago. I would postulate that there's something to that, at least for some people.

But yes, the stakes were also less high-- though I would say that they were still pretty high to the point of demanding alacrity, personally. Azys Lla having a shield was fine, the stuff you did there was also not that egregious, but having to go back and chat with Matoya and go into the Great Gubal Library alone to retrieve a tome definitely could've been nixed if they so wanted to trim the fat. That said, I did enjoy the moments with Matoya and the dungeon, so I obviously don't mind that it was there. Just trying to keep my feelings out of it in this situation. There were a few other spots in HW as well, if I recall.

Because Zenos is pretty and he makes us feel wanted

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Zenos not dying in Stormblood ruined everything he's touched since then.

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Finally an explanation for my feels feeling ruined

Do I think Zenos ruined EW’s story?, No.

Do I think Zenos was a necessary character for EW’s story?, No.

Zenos is incredibly superfluous to the entire story since his death back in 4.0, it caused glaring issues in the writing. Elidibus in Zenos’s body is only the height of a midlander, Zenos literally asspulled his way out of his 1st death by magically body hoping without ever knowing how to, what some players had to experience for years of seeing Zenos sit on his butt doing nothing, 6.0 deliberately written to make the WoL more battle/fight crazy than any expansion or patch did prior or since all to justify the 1v1 at the end of 6.0

If you took Zenos out of the plot after 4.0, the only thing you would need to get seriously think about is who would kill Varis, everything else can be left as is and nothing of importance would be lost to the narrative.

Zenos never drove the plot forward after 4.0 except for his killing of Varis and for an antagonist that’s is terrible for 2 nearly 3 expansions worth of story

EW story is caused by Amon, Hermes and Meteion as the actual antagonists

Zenos was just there an afterthought until “oh yeah we should do something with him”.

It's kind of hilarious when you realize that his entire character arc in EW is realizing how superfluous he is to everything going on. He finally butts into the Endsinger fight just to say "Alright, fine, let's just get this over with already so I can get my fight".

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

It's kind of hilarious when you realize that his entire character arc in EW is realizing how superfluous he is to everything going on. He finally butts into the Endsinger fight just to say "Alright, fine, let's just get this over with already so I can get my fight".

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Feels wholly intentional. Most of Endwalker, he just spent floundering about, and then every interaction with him just puts great emphasis on how devoid of meaning his life is.

He had some moments, but overall he really should've stayed dead in StB. I at least wish I could've ignored his last fight request and just peaced out, I don't wanna prove him right or give him what he wants, screw that.
"If you wish to walk away, I will not stop you"? Bitchin', so long and see you never.

zenos is the only good part of stormblood and he made endwalker for me

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

zenos is the only good part of stormblood and he made endwalker for me

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Word. Stormblood is a snooze fest. Lyse is probably the most punchable character in game.

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

Word. Stormblood is a snooze fest. Lyse is probably the most punchable character in game.

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Lyse: "What am I doing here?"

WoL:

https://media.tenor.com/Bg_GW-oV5OwA...g-dan-levy.gif

On the contrary, he pretty much was the only interesting thing in EW for me

Zeno (among other things like the 2 halves story, Lyse, repeated plot beats, etc.) ruined stormblood and it would have been great if he stayed dead, but his post sb appearances were actually mostly good. Zenos is bad when he is sitting in a chair bored and reasonably great when he is hamming it up and his bored chair man to ham ratio is way better post 4.0.

I don't think EW was ruined but I do think the writers trying to chase after what people liked about ShB (Emet, the ancients, the more metaphysical, doomsday plot, etc.) and trying to crank them up without really taking into account what they had already built up (us vs Zenos, the Alliance vs the Empire, the civil war and rebellion going on in the empire) just made EW's story feel really forced and anvillicious to me. (*´Д｀)

Nope, Zenos made EW more fun. :D He should have got more screen time instead of the Loporrits.