The Variant Dungeon Formula - only aesthetics and enemies will change

So we now know about the Variant Dungeon formula:

All Variant Dungeons will have one NPC to explore the place with you.

All Variant Dungeons will have exactly three pathways at the beginning to choose from, each leading to a hallway with two bosses.

The first boss on each path is the same for all paths but with varying mechanics.

There is a fifth, hidden boss that requires you to solve a riddle by running the dungeon multiple times to find different clues in the logbook entries.

There are exactly 12 entries to get by running various modifications of the three routes, triggered by certain actions.

So the only things that will really change between the Variant Dungeons are the mobs and bosses and the aesthetics. The formula itself is always the same, just like it is with normal dungeons. So don't expect to be surprised by anything other than that.

How would you have changed things out of curiosity?

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

How would you have changed things out of curiosity?

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Just not hamstrung myself with such a strict formula when there's no reason to.

I would have first created the lore for the place and then designed layout and bosses accordingly. Meaning that some paths would cross, sometimes we would be alone, sometimes we would be accompanied by a team to send to different places to maybe trigger certain switches opening paths, which on multiple playthroughs could lead to significant differences, sometimes we would have a hallway first and then only two paths to choose from, sometimes one of those would split again, sometimes we would first fight a boss, the way in which we defeat them would trigger different paths, sometimes there would be a central ring from which several different pathways split that would open or close others, sometimes you would choose one path and you could fall off it onto another path, sometimes you would get swallowed by a giant fish if you linger too long with the boat on the lake, letting the rest of the dungeon play out inside the belly of the fish, sometimes you would have to sit in front of a shrine to pray, falling into a dreamlike trance that either lets you enter the past, or a dreamworld or shift through walls, sometimes I would have hidden pathways inside a building that you would only see from one pathway, but just learn through this visual queue and then access from another pathway, sometimes I would let you fall into a trap, where if you fall down left you would become paralyzed by the spikes on the ground, leading you to get kidnapped by a group of bandits to a different location where once you wake up you have to fight your way out, while if you fall down on the right, you will evade the spikes and be able to continue exploring the underground space there, stuff like that.

You might say, well that's meaningless, at the end of the day it's just another dungeon. But I think with such a clear formula, we feel it more. With so strict a formula, a place can do so much less to make it feel distinct and real.

Did you expect FFXIV to magically stop playing it safe and listen to feedback?

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Did you expect FFXIV to magically stop playing it safe and listen to feedback?

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They didn't play it safe with the Sil'dihn Subterrane.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Just not hamstrung myself with such a strict formula when there's no reason to.

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The problem is, everything you have said is exactly what you have described in your first post, just laid out differently.

Having crossing paths, where I assume you can go from route 1 to route 2 rather than continuing on route 1, is just another choice you can make. Do I flip the switch right or left? Having a different party to command is the same. You tell them to do something, they do it, your path changes, switch left or right and this point continues.

Even something like a surprise trap where you get ambushed, it is still a choice. You get caught the first time, but next time, you don't, switch left or right.

The difference with what you want is you do not want the choices as obvious the first time you go through. You want that surprise factor as you go through the first time on a pathway, which then ceases to be a surprise the next time you take that path.

So really, all we are looking for is different themes for the dungeon. Which is what we are going to get. This is only the second variant dungeon after all, who knows what will come in the future.

I don't really see much of an issue with it as is, just the rewards/longevity.

I'm not that charmed with the variant scheme myself, though. I wish they'd ditch the meme "quadrillion branching paths" thing and just did something else with it.

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

I don't really see much of an issue with it as is, just the rewards/longevity.

I'm not that charmed with the variant scheme myself, though. I wish they'd ditch the meme "quadrillion branching paths" thing and just did something else with it.

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They should probably look at the old GW2 dungeons for examples. Ascalonian Catacombs, the first dungeon you can enter, has one of 3 NPCs you can side with at the beginning, which changes how the dungeon progresses. You enter some same rooms, but things change, including enemy locations and bosses. They could do something similar with the Variant dungeons. You choose 1 of 3 NPCs at the beginning to go through the dungeon with (they're basically the 3 path choices). You can have small variations in each section, but it makes every path fresh.

I suppose I just expected it to be exactly like this. The only thing I was expected to change was the boss names, mechanics, visual design of the area and boss and the lore.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

The problem is, everything you have said is exactly what you have described in your first post, just laid out differently.

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I don't see why that's a problem. Much less one that would need to be solved by a super strict formula which doesn't allow for any alteration in the number of choices, the way in which choices have to follow other choices or what consitutes a choice to begin with.

You call it a problem, I call it the spice of life. Sure, it's only gonna be a surprise the first time around, but that's literally every game. With the established formula there's already so much less each variant dungeon can do to distinguish itself, so much more I already know before even going in.

Do you really think they are going to drastically change new content within a single patch cycle? That stuff only happens in expansions.

Software developers reuse code. They don't rewrite from scratch every time. Why not reuse the code? It isn't like they rewrite their engine that produces character models every expansion.

Yeah and on a sudoku puzzle only thing that changes is the placement of the numbers.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Do you really think they are going to drastically change new content within a single patch cycle? That stuff only happens in expansions.

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Yes, I do expect them to figure out changes to the formula after 8 months, because the next expansion is when they abandon the entire thing if it wasn't popular enough.

If this plays out the exact same as the Sil'dihn Subterrane with just a new coat of paint then it will, once again, be dead content after 2 weeks, especially the Criterion version.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Yes, I do expect them to figure out changes to the formula after 8 months, because the next expansion is when they abandon the entire thing if it wasn't popular enough.

If this plays out the exact same as the Sil'dihn Subterrane with just a new coat of paint then it will, once again, be dead content after 2 weeks, especially the Criterion version.

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Then you don't know how development cycles work. They plan this stuff months in advance, have schedules, budgets etc... They cannot just reverse course on content they had already been working on for months. This is why significant changes only occur much much later and usually in the next expansion where they can plan for these things.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

So we now know about the Variant Dungeon formula:

All Variant Dungeons will have one NPC to explore the place with you.

All Variant Dungeons will have exactly three pathways at the beginning to choose from, each leading to a hallway with two bosses.

The first boss on each path is the same for all paths but with varying mechanics.

There is a fifth, hidden boss that requires you to solve a riddle by running the dungeon multiple times to find different clues in the logbook entries.

There are exactly 12 entries to get by running various modifications of the three routes, triggered by certain actions.

So the only things that will really change between the Variant Dungeons are the mobs and bosses and the aesthetics. The formula itself is always the same, just like it is with normal dungeons. So don't expect to be surprised by anything other than that.

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Ugh, can't believe the new expert dungeon is 6 trash pulls and 3 bosses all in a corridor. And can you believe that the new raid is 4 instances comprised of a single boss and an arena shaped like a large square/circle?

I wouldn't mind such a design for a normal roulette dungeon, to make the dungeons a bit more varied each run- I'm sure they could improve the ideas as they go along too. If "choosing" becomes a problem for the gotta go fast community then the dungeon can always choose for you or each branch a single player is selected to choose.

Perhaps occasionally the new dungeon is a variant dungeon, help make it less of a side content too and reduce the reward issue.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Then you don't know how development cycles work. They plan this stuff months in advance, have schedules, budgets etc... They cannot just reverse course on content they had already been working on for months. This is why significant changes only occur much much later and usually in the next expansion where they can plan for these things.

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Please understand, Square Enix very smol, very indie company and adjustments to an internal .csv v v hard

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Originally Posted by hunkygladiator

Please understand, Square Enix very smol, very indie company and adjustments to an internal .csv v v hard

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Size of a company has nothing to do with it you troll. You can't just reverse course on things that have already been planned/made/tested. There was an entire conversation from the WoW developers explaining their process and why they can't just flip a switch to change things players didn't like. It takes a long time to change things and every development studio has similar processes, especially for games that are constantly live.

better not catch you looking up the anwers to the puzzles in the new criterion dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Then you don't know how development cycles work. They plan this stuff months in advance, have schedules, budgets etc... They cannot just reverse course on content they had already been working on for months. This is why significant changes only occur much much later and usually in the next expansion where they can plan for these things.

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It doesn't matter how their developement cycle works, it's not even my problem if the next variant dungeon was already in developement at the time they released the first one.

If they can't react to the feedback in time then that content will basically be DOA and we won't see any more variant dungeons come 7.0 because it "isn't worth the resources".

A: the upcoming Variant/ criterion dungeons are more of the same
B: What or how would you change it?
A: *gives a reasonable list of changes that would benefit everyone*
B: "W-well there's no point, they are not going to change mid expansion, they plan on advance, they are not going to add stuff in a .5, patch, don't expect much"

I know the forum is free and all that but what was the point on asking about solutions or ideas then?

variant/criterion not tied to relics is a mistake
they heard some troll saying "HEY, imagine if we used Manderville as a scenario to progress" and thought "well, why not?"

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Originally Posted by Eisi

I don't see why that's a problem. Much less one that would need to be solved by a super strict formula which doesn't allow for any alteration in the number of choices, the way in which choices have to follow other choices or what consitutes a choice to begin with.

You call it a problem, I call it the spice of life. Sure, it's only gonna be a surprise the first time around, but that's literally every game. With the established formula there's already so much less each variant dungeon can do to distinguish itself, so much more I already know before even going in.

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Again, you don't have an issue with the content, doesn't matter how the choices are presented, they are still choices, you have an issue with the theming of the dungeon. This is the problem I was on about. You have failed to see that what you want and what is being presented are the same, however, considering this dungeon isn't even out yet, it might have some of these things you are after. Not likely, but there is a chance.

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Originally Posted by Elissar

variant/criterion not tied to relics is a mistake
they heard some troll saying "HEY, imagine if we used Manderville as a scenario to progress" and thought "well, why not?"

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I enjoyed the variant dungeon as a one-time activity, and even then it was starting to wear out its welcome once I'd done the same fight with Geryon in every route.

Having to run it X more times for a relic would be tedious.

I wanted to ask as someone who hasnt bothered with these at all I’d they were fun or added any value to you. I didn’t see any rewards to tempt me nor any compelling story reasons to go do these.

It looks like for Iscah they were fun once which doesn’t seem like amazing content.

I’m not asking to be negative - I’m just really curious as I struggle to see the direction for these.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I wanted to ask as someone who hasnt bothered with these at all I’d they were fun or added any value to you. I didn’t see any rewards to tempt me nor any compelling story reasons to go do these.

It looks like for Iscah they were fun once which doesn’t seem like amazing content.

I’m not asking to be negative - I’m just really curious as I struggle to see the direction for these.

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I enjoyed it as a puzzle to figure out. You do one route and get a journal entry that gives you some clues towards how to investigate a different route.

I would also like it if they made a "standard dungeon" version of it that could come up in the regular roulette. The bosses had some fun mechanics that I would be happy to replay.

But as a dedicated "do this specific dungeon another ten times to power up your sparkly weapon" task, it would be awful.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I enjoyed it as a puzzle to figure out. You do one route and get a journal entry that gives you some clues towards how to investigate a different route.

I would also like it if they made a "standard dungeon" version of it that could come up in the regular roulette. The bosses had some fun mechanics that I would be happy to replay.

But as a dedicated "do this specific dungeon another ten times to power up your sparkly weapon" task, it would be awful.

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Thank you for the insight. I do think I’d probably like these is they were in our roulette - but as separate content I probably won’t get to those for some time. It does sound like there is some fun to be had at least.

I also in general dislike having one task chosen that I need to do over and over again for a grind so have to agree on that point. Especially if it’s doing one fate or dungeon until I don’t want to log in anymore lol.

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Originally Posted by kinslayer-

A: the upcoming Variant/ criterion dungeons are more of the same
B: What or how would you change it?
A: *gives a reasonable list of changes that would benefit everyone*
B: "W-well there's no point, they are not going to change mid expansion, they plan on advance, they are not going to add stuff in a .5, patch, don't expect much"

I know the forum is free and all that but what was the point on asking about solutions or ideas then?

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The forum isnt free. You need to be subbed to use it.

Variant dungeons are not what I was expecting when they announced them. I was expecting more variety and each path to lead to a different boss instead of having to fight the same few bosses over and over with only some minor mechanic variations.

The loot drop rate is also so abysmal it’s not even worth it. I did 39 runs in total: 3 with randos the day it came out, then I cleared all paths on my main twice: once to get the mount and once to help a friend and just I cleared it again this past week on an alt. The only loot I got besides sparklies in all those runs was one single sewer minion.

Timewise, the tome rewards are low too and there is no reason to pick this over roulette.

Once you have the mount there is no reason to go back.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

Variant dungeons are not what I was expecting when they announced them. I was expecting more variety and each path to lead to a different boss instead of having to fight the same few bosses over and over with only some minor mechanic variations.

The loot drop rate is also so abysmal it’s not even worth it. I did 39 runs in total: 3 with randos the day it came out, then I cleared all paths on my main twice: once to get the mount and once to help a friend and just I cleared it again this past week on an alt. The only loot I got in all those runs was one single sewer minion.

Timewise, the tome rewards are low too and there is no reason to pick this over roulette.

Once you have the mount there is no reason to go back.

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Thanks for this - it seems like content I can safely ignore as someone not into the mount. Maybe if there are enough of these someday they can have their own roulette for better rewards or something. Else I'll probably *eventually* do these once out of curiosity and drop them.

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

I don't really see much of an issue with it as is, just the rewards/longevity.

I'm not that charmed with the variant scheme myself, though. I wish they'd ditch the meme "quadrillion branching paths" thing and just did something else with it.

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I don't think variant is ment to have longevity as it opens criterion, I think it's only purpose to serve as introduction,

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Thanks for this - it seems like content I can safely ignore as someone not into the mount. Maybe if there are enough of these someday they can have their own roulette for better rewards or something. Else I'll probably *eventually* do these once out of curiosity and drop them.

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The other reason (if you care about such things) to do it is some background/worldbuilding lore about Nanamo's parents and an old alliance with the Amalj'aa. You could get most of it by following a few specific paths – one run starting from each of the three doors from the beginning, then the specific combination of actions that unlocks the bonus boss and true ending, plus reading the journal entries from a wiki instead of the game.

Although that is assuming you only need to do the bonus boss to get the concluding quest, and don't need to run every route. I'm not certain about that.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The other reason (if you care about such things) to do it is some background/worldbuilding lore about Nanamo's parents and an old alliance with the Amalj'aa. You could get most of it by following a few specific paths – one run starting from each of the three doors from the beginning, then the specific combination of actions that unlocks the bonus boss and true ending, plus reading the journal entries from a wiki instead of the game.

Although that is assuming you only need to do the bonus boss to get the concluding quest, and don't need to run every route. I'm not certain about that.

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Thanks for that - it's not lore I'm personally super interested in, but it is nice that it's there. If told well enough then it seems there could be a little storytelling to be enjoyed too which is a plus.