AI Bots?

I wonder how Square will be handling the advent of AI bots that outplay players? Not tomorrow of course, but the time is coming when 'rent-an-ai' will be available; or worse, for sale. Neil Tyson put it well in a recent commentary with words to the effect that soon AI will be able to duplicate any photograph, any audible sounds including human voices, any motion pictures, and make short shrift of most passwords in seconds. He said it portends the death of the Internet. So then, to be allowed to play, we have to not be AI. Given that, how do we prove we aren't perfect, against a creation that is perfect at proving it is not perfect?

Shooter

Bruh, they can already barely detect normal bots.

There's already bots that play the game. Be sure to report them if you encounter anyone using them.
And performing better than the average player is not a high bar to reach, let's be honest.

One way is to move into AI vs AI.. similar to Hugh Jackman's Real Steel - Wanna play this game? Your AI vs. ours. That is fanciful, admittedly, because the compute power resources necessary to bring on a significant AI are yet vast. But at the rate of development.. yeah.

Shooter

I'm sure we can prove we're not an AI by being dumb.

Hey instead of carrying a brain dead bot...if they make one that can carry me...

Nah. Screw it. Bots are pointless. Just play the game or don't.

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Originally Posted by Maxcrafter

I wonder how Square will be handling the advent of AI bots that outplay players? Not tomorrow of course, but the time is coming when 'rent-an-ai' will be available; or worse, for sale. Neil Tyson put it well in a recent commentary with words to the effect that soon AI will be able to duplicate any photograph, any audible sounds including human voices, any motion pictures, and make short shrift of most passwords in seconds. He said it portends the death of the Internet. So then, to be allowed to play, we have to not be AI. Given that, how do we prove we aren't perfect, against a creation that is perfect at proving it is not perfect?

Shooter

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They won't handle it. And the true punishment for it is depriving yourself of the game you could be playing but you're instead telling a computer to play it for you... for... what again?

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Originally Posted by Maxcrafter

One way is to move into AI vs AI.. similar to Hugh Jackman's Real Steel - Wanna play this game? Your AI vs. ours. That is fanciful, admittedly, because the compute power resources necessary to bring on a significant AI are yet vast. But at the rate of development.. yeah.

Shooter

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Seeing how slow game companies are when it comes to anything new, look up the dumb decisions of game companies trying to get into NFTs/crypto... like 3 years after all the scammers...


Side note: Why do you sign forum posts with your name, when it's on every single post you make...? Curious in why people do this.

They won't handle it obviously but...

The current AI isn't that efficient, takes really knowledgeable people to create and use properly. I know someone who thinks they're an absolute genius at using gpt but there are people out there that are on a whole different level when it comes to prompting it.

Oh and to make matters worse literally every government out there freaked out about the current AIs, and they're all trying to put restrictions on the production(because they're all boomers who don't know how it works and they don't know what else to do).

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

They won't handle it obviously but...

The current AI isn't that efficient, takes really knowledgeable people to create and use properly. I know someone who thinks they're an absolute genius at using gpt but there are people out there that are on a whole different level when it comes to prompting it.

Oh and to make matters worse literally every government out there freaked out about the current AIs, and they're all trying to put restrictions on the production(because they're all boomers who don't know how it works and they don't know what else to do).

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Tbf even the Google CEO said he cant explain how AI works, and it is an experiment they unleashed into the world without really knowing what it does, while the ethics team got fired or left/reduced. I can understand why some states will put restrictions, especially when it will destroy a lot of jobs.

But yeah I dont think OP understands how AI usually gets trained and how difficult it would be for a game like this. This isnt even near or midterm future

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Originally Posted by Maxcrafter

I wonder how Square will be handling the advent of AI bots that outplay players? Not tomorrow of course, but the time is coming when 'rent-an-ai' will be available; or worse, for sale. Neil Tyson put it well in a recent commentary with words to the effect that soon AI will be able to duplicate any photograph, any audible sounds including human voices, any motion pictures, and make short shrift of most passwords in seconds. He said it portends the death of the Internet. So then, to be allowed to play, we have to not be AI. Given that, how do we prove we aren't perfect, against a creation that is perfect at proving it is not perfect?

Shooter

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AI bots already exist in Ultimate raiding.

There was a chinese group that made a youtube video a while back that showed their AI bots completing DSR, the video was dislike bombed and youtube took it down.
Every movement was 100% perfect pixel movement to avoid and resolve every single mechanic.

Welcome to the new age of people buying clears.

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Originally Posted by Maxcrafter

I wonder how Square will be handling the advent of AI bots that outplay players? Not tomorrow of course, but the time is coming when 'rent-an-ai' will be available; or worse, for sale. Neil Tyson put it well in a recent commentary with words to the effect that soon AI will be able to duplicate any photograph, any audible sounds including human voices, any motion pictures, and make short shrift of most passwords in seconds. He said it portends the death of the Internet. So then, to be allowed to play, we have to not be AI. Given that, how do we prove we aren't perfect, against a creation that is perfect at proving it is not perfect?

Shooter

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It depends on what you mean by "AI bots".

AI in general, as in artificial intelligence? It's already a thing. Or else what would you call the existing bots...? Some of them do rotations better than 99% of players.

AI as in specifically machine-learning based ones?

1. There is no money to be made making ML/DL based bots since the marginal benefit is extremely low (see the point about bots already doing very well).

2. Exactly how are you going to get the training set? It seems prohibitively costly to get a sufficiently large training set for playing one particular video game compared to just scraping Reddit.

3. How are you going to update the bot for new content? Do you repeat part 2 every single time?

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

AI bots already exist in Ultimate raiding.

There was a chinese group that made a youtube video a while back that showed their AI bots completing DSR

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That video is fake. What isn't fake however is the existence of rotation bots that can do entire rotations for you. There are a lot of fake videos of "cheats" or "bots" in raiding out there, though I'm seriously unsure what is the point of making those fake videos.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Tbf even the Google CEO said he cant explain how AI works, and it is an experiment they unleashed into the world without really knowing what it does, while the ethics team got fired or left/reduced. I can understand why some states will put restrictions, especially when it will destroy a lot of jobs.

But yeah I dont think OP understands how AI usually gets trained and how difficult it would be for a game like this. This isnt even near or midterm future

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Why would the Google CEO know how DL models work? It isn't his job and he's not trained in it. And all this brouhaha over AI being a black box is as inane as saying that 358982351 * 8234609182^3527 is a black box. It's literally just a lot of chained regressions exploiting generalizations of Stone-Weierstrass. If someone wants to put in the effort they can examine the weights at every layer.

Furthermore, there's already a lot of research and tools to explain AI models. e.g.: https://github.com/slundberg/shap

The only reason AI will upend society is not because governments ignore the threat but because they literally don't understand it and will therefore likely institute horrible policies.

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Originally Posted by Maxcrafter

I wonder how Square will be handling the advent of AI bots that outplay players?

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They already do. They are called Duty Support. ;)

And there are not-allowed bots that do that already as well. Ever seen those gatherers flying around with an AFK icon or landed in a dungeon with 3 bots that teleport away, pull all the mobs and leave you at the start area?

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recent commentary with words to the effect that soon AI will be able to duplicate any photograph, any audible sounds including human voices, any motion pictures, and make short shrift of most passwords in seconds.

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All of that is already possible. Duplicate photographs with copy and paste, accurate voice synthesis based on a small clip of audio is already possible if you find what I did, Google has an internal AI that can create a real looking video based on a description and working out passwords is still going to require a fast enough machine, even if an AI finds a way to sift through them in a more efficient way. Faster machines will definitely arrive and probably cause us to keep increasing the length of passwords.

One day when we have human AI robots and they start gaming, Will they be banned or allowed to play against human players.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/N8wR1...giphy.gif&ct=g

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Originally Posted by hynaku

One day when we have human AI robots and they start gaming, Will they be banned or allowed to play against human players.

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Both. It's already happening.

I think OP is confusing narrow AI and general AI. Narrow AI simply does tasks (aka bots and chatgpts) while general AI is the one that learns. Imo we already have bots that play arguably better than humans in ffxiv, trusts are the proof, it dont help most gameplay in ffxiv is like a dance so it makes their task easier.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

One day when we have human AI robots and they start gaming, Will they be banned or allowed to play against human players.

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Ever heard of AlphaGo vs Go world champion Lee Sedol or Deep blue vs chess champion Kasparov back then?

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Originally Posted by DayHealer

I think OP is confusing narrow AI and general AI. Narrow AI simply does tasks (aka bots and chatgpts) while general AI is the one that learns. Imo we already have bots that play arguably better than humans in ffxiv, trusts are the proof, it dont help most gameplay in ffxiv is like a dance so it makes their task easier.


Ever heard of AlphaGo vs Go world champion Lee Sedol or Deep blue vs chess champion Kasparov back then?

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Go is an extremely simple game in terms of the "size" of the choice set. AI has a long way to go before it can play something like a modern action game.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

AI bots already exist in Ultimate raiding.

There was a chinese group that made a youtube video a while back that showed their AI bots completing DSR, the video was dislike bombed and youtube took it down.
Every movement was 100% perfect pixel movement to avoid and resolve every single mechanic.

Welcome to the new age of people buying clears.

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Thats the issue when you keep building ontop a shit netcode so you have to design fights on a timeline. If mechanic always happens at minute x, a bot will be able to do it 100% of the time pixel perfect better than any human could. And then we have jobs so rigid they have a spreadsheet for every single fight you can just feed the bot and they can play the job better than all the players can too.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

There's already bots that play the game. Be sure to report them if you encounter anyone using them.
And performing better than the average player is not a high bar to reach, let's be honest.

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This, I welcome our bot overlords if it means less depressing roulettes ;)

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Originally Posted by hunkygladiator

That video is fake. What isn't fake however is the existence of rotation bots that can do entire rotations for you. There are a lot of fake videos of "cheats" or "bots" in raiding out there, though I'm seriously unsure what is the point of making those fake videos.

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Really? You of all people dont see the point of riling people up with fake/bait posts?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Really? You of all people dont see the point of riling people up with fake/bait posts?

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It's so much effort when you can just spend one minute writing a shitpost about how the Heroes' Gauntlet is too hard and have multiple Youtubers talking about it.

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Originally Posted by hunkygladiator

That video is fake. What isn't fake however is the existence of rotation bots that can do entire rotations for you. There are a lot of fake videos of "cheats" or "bots" in raiding out there, though I'm seriously unsure what is the point of making those fake videos.

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TAS speedrunning is a thing (and bigger than some people realise). And even within that community, there is competition in 'who is first', and 'who is the fastest'. And this promotes fake videos, and thats most likely not even the main reason here. The reason they make such videos is because there are no consequences for doing so. Even if you get called out, the money from the video is already made.

Technicaly this game can be easily TAS'd. All mechanics are static and screen readable (sure, memory reading can make things easier, but certain tas categories disallow this). But because of the competition, the code to do this is often kept private. And if the TAS-er has some dignity, he keeps it private to avoid cheaters obtaining these tools.

Its only that FF isnt popular enough for this (if you make it for this game, why not just do that in wow? With private code detection isnt that easy to perform for devs anyway). Otherwise they would already have done that considering bot detection in this game is horrible enough.

But why take such effort if a cheap video already generates the money?

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

TAS speedrunning is a thing (and bigger than some people realise). And even within that community, there is competition in 'who is first', and 'who is the fastest'. And this promotes fake videos, and thats most likely not even the main reason here. The reason they make such videos is because there are no consequences for doing so. Even if you get called out, the money from the video is already made.

Technicaly this game can be easily TAS'd. All mechanics are static and screen readable (sure, memory reading can make things easier, but certain tas categories disallow this). But because of the competition, the code to do this is often kept private. And if the TAS-er has some dignity, he keeps it private to avoid cheaters obtaining these tools.

Its only that FF isnt popular enough for this (if you make it for this game, why not just do that in wow? With private code detection isnt that easy to perform for devs anyway). Otherwise they would already have done that considering bot detection in this game is horrible enough.

But why take such effort if a cheap video already generates the money?

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IDK, I just don't see how they're making the money. These videos get like 10k views on youtube which is like $1.

It's not a problem that SE or the gaming industry can solve. It's a problem that must be solved by society because it goes beyond just gaming.

What prompts people to cheat? How do we get that behavior to stop?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's not a problem that SE or the gaming industry can solve. It's a problem that must be solved by society because it goes beyond just gaming.

What prompts people to cheat? How do we get that behavior to stop?

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"CRIME MUST BE STOPPED BY ASKING CRIMINALS TO JUST STOP"

Thankfully criminology and social science in general has moved on from this perspective.

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Originally Posted by hunkygladiator

"CRIME MUST BE STOPPED BY ASKING CRIMINALS TO JUST STOP"

Thankfully criminology and social science in general has moved on from this perspective.

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Same thing applies to gaming. People aren't going to stop cheating just because others ask them to stop.

If no one takes the time to find out what prompts the cheating, then it's unlikely that any changes made will discourage it.

With how fast A.I. is progressing, Mao thinkings gaming will be the LEAST of everyones worries. Within next 20 years many peoples here will lose jobs to A.I. and that includes highly skilled technical jobs.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

With how fast A.I. is progressing, Mao thinkings gaming will be the LEAST of everyones worries. Within next 20 years many peoples here will lose jobs to A.I. and that includes highly skilled technical jobs.

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Detroit: Become Mao

https://i.ibb.co/sPZVwgV/Mao.jpg

Main reason people cheat in MMOs is simply because:

A) They are just some edgelord looking to be a showoff curbstomping everybody
B) They don't have much time for gaming
C) Because they can.
D) Rare reason probably they want to know how the game works
E) Rare reason they want to explore for unused Content (there is people like this)
F) They're some kind of farmer, and sometimes real money is involved.

Group A and F is the most likely cheaters that populate most MMOs