Roulette incentives backwards?

A year after a break playing other MMOs, I came back for a month to play FF14. I love the music and gameplay. Playing with other players in roulettes has been a challenge. I've found that many or most don't really want to play the dungeon; they want to get their bonuses as quickly as possible, and it makes replaying these dungeons with other players awful. Frequently tanks pull more than they can chew and healers--especially sprouts--can't keep up.

I think there's an assumption that multi-player content won't be played unless there are strong incentives for jaded players. If roulettes didn't offer the same rewards--maybe even no exp or item rewards--I think queue times still wouldn't be too bad. Many players, myself included, just like to have a pleasant experience with other players--even if it means that we clear a dungeon in 22 minutes instead of 18 minutes. That said, I like the new Duty Support system, and I think it would be great to integrate it other players that want to play the game, while filling empty roles with Duty Support. (Endgame is obviously a different beast.)

In any case, 2c from a veteran-noob.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

A year after a break playing other MMOs, I came back for a month to play FF14. I love the music and gameplay. Playing with other players in roulettes has been a challenge. I've found that many or most don't really want to play the dungeon; they want to get their bonuses as quickly as possible, and it makes replaying these dungeons with other players awful. Frequently tanks pull more than they can chew and healers--especially sprouts--can't keep up.

I think there's an assumption that multi-player content won't be played unless there are strong incentives for jaded players. If roulettes didn't offer the same rewards--maybe even no exp or item rewards--I think queue times still wouldn't be too bad. Many players, myself included, just like to have a pleasant experience with other players--even if it means that we clear a dungeon in 22 minutes instead of 18 minutes. That said, I like the new Duty Support system, and I think it would be great to integrate it other players that want to play the game, while filling empty roles with Duty Support. (Endgame is obviously a different beast.)

In any case, 2c from a veteran-noob.

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You can make your own group if you want to go in roulettes at a snail pace.

Also if you think people will do roulettes with absolutely no reward whatsoever, really ? Lol

If roulettes (aside from 90 and expert) did not offer exp, I would basically never run them except on a 90 job where I could get tomes for them. If they didn't offer tomes, I would never run them except on a sub-90 job where I could get exp from them. If they offered neither, I would never run them. This would make leveling incredibly frustrating, because the only way to do it effectively would be to keep spamming the highest level dungeon and hope there were enough people queueing for it that you could spam it with (or alternately use duty support). They are the primary way to level for most people doing alt jobs and most people would not queue for them otherwise.

I agree, and you both make great points. Perhaps the incentives have to be tuned and maybe they need to be focused on higher level dungeons.

I don't have the answers, but I tried leveling a job from 1-70, and most of the veteran players in leveling or 50/60/70/80 roulettes didn't want to be there. I think it's worth discussing whether the system could be more positive to newer players--players without a job < lvl 70.

(Also, the idea of getting pickup groups to suit new players doesn't make a lot of sense. If anything, dungeon speed runners should form their own groups to clear any dungeon, and the default for new players would be that progressing at a somewhat slower pace is possible.)

Again, 2c.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

and the default for new players would be that progressing at a somewhat slower pace is possible.

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>>trusts

Most dungeons are not remotely threatening, even the ones that are can still be pulled wall to wall by extremely average randoms with little to no communication.

Also, I think it would be good if jaded and veteran players didn't play low-level dungeons if they didn't want to. It's a game. You shouldn't play old content if you don't want to play old content, despite rewards. Really, with Duty Support, it doesn't make sense to have players that don't want to be there play that content.

I'm basically arguing that the existing rewards from roulettes should go to activities that veteran players want to play. If they don't want to play old dungeons, they shouldn't have to get a bit more exp or tomes. Honestly, I think square is already thinking in this direction.

(Obviously, I'm not saying veteran players don't want to play low level (lvl <80) dungeons. I'm just saying that those that don't want to play with learning players shouldn't feel a strong incentive to do so. That incentive should move to activities veteran players want to play.)

At the end of the day, none of this will change anything. I'm just reminded of the reasons I left originally.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

>>trusts

Most dungeons are not remotely threatening, even the ones that are can still be pulled wall to wall by extremely average randoms with little to no communication.

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You're obviously a high quality player. That hasn't been my experience. Tanks pull too much, healers can't keep up, and new Stormblood players aren't that good--and that's ok. A single wipe is fine, but when the tank wipes 4-5 times because he/she can't help but pull everything, it gets frustrating.

I hope I get the chance to play with you next time.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

If roulettes didn't offer the same rewards--maybe even no exp or item rewards--I think queue times still wouldn't be too bad. Many players, myself included, just like to have a pleasant experience with other players--even if it means that we clear a dungeon in 22 minutes instead of 18 minutes.

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MSQ roulette before it got its massive rewards already proves this statement false. The roulette was basically dead because the roulette gave such pitiful exp & tomes even when speedrunning that to most people, it wasn't even worth the effort. They had to mega buff the rewards while simultaneously prevent cutscene skipping to incentivize people to queue for it. Or take the ongoing issue of people intentionally lowering their ilvl in order to get CT in their roulettes because the other alliance roulette instances take far longer than CT because of the fact the worth vs reward is so heavily skewed on CT.

The simple reality is that roulettes are what keeps the queues populated -Anything that is even remotely outdated like old raid tier normals would become nearly impossible to get into without full premades due to the fact they are primarily filled by people from trials roulette - and without rewards to incentivize the roulette, all those instances would effectively be dead. People very rarely go into old content to help people for the warm and fuzzies, they go back there for their own player progression, whether it be EXP, tomes, etc - its human nature by large. And without those rewards from the roulette, going into a roulette and getting anything but the latest dungeon you have unlocked would be a waste of time for any person trying to level.

When you enter the DF, you are agreeing to deal with the hand the game throws at you, whether thats a full group of speedrunners or 3/4 people wanting a snail's pace run. If either side wants to guarantee a run of a certain length, they should go make their own premade before entering; otherwise you go with the majority decision.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

I'm basically arguing that the existing rewards from roulettes should go to activities that veteran players want to play. If they don't want to play old dungeons, they shouldn't have to get a bit more exp or tomes. Honestly, I think square is already thinking in this direction.

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Based on... what, exactly? As Daeriion noted, they had to buff MSQ roulette twice just to get queues moving after making it so the cut scenes were no longer skippable. 50/60/70/80 is notoriously slow because the EXP reward is lackluster compared to simply queuing into your highest level dungeon. Even Alliance roulette drops off in activity as the expansion carries on. Speaking of, unlocking Ivalice or Nier can take forever unless you specifically queue at prime time and get a little lucky. Why? Because people don't want to run them unless they have to as its easier to wipe and they're noticeably longer.

Your assertion is very much incorrect. Roulettes are only kept alive by the EXP and/or tome incentives they provide. If that were removed, I can guarantee you'd be waiting hours for even current expansion leveling dungeons. If you want a slower pace Trusts are tailor made for such an experience. Otherwise, you deal with whatever you get in DF.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

Also, I think it would be good if jaded and veteran players didn't play low-level dungeons if they didn't want to. It's a game. You shouldn't play old content if you don't want to play old content, despite rewards. Really, with Duty Support, it doesn't make sense to have players that don't want to be there play that content.

I'm basically arguing that the existing rewards from roulettes should go to activities that veteran players want to play. If they don't want to play old dungeons, they shouldn't have to get a bit more exp or tomes. Honestly, I think square is already thinking in this direction.

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Veterans players need to do lower level stuff, otherwise new players will have 30min+ queues for everything. If your argument is that they can use Trust, then keep in mind this is still MMORPG game. If you want to be left alone, with no responsibilities and your own pace, you shouldn't be playing MMORPG at all, or any team-based online games for that matter.

There is tons of issues with the game, but this ain't one of them. Nerfing roulettes will force newbs to have Trust not as a choice, but as something mandatory. That will effectively make game single player from level 1 to 89.

In fact, I would argue that roulettes should be encouraged more and reworked, so optional content like 50/60/70/80 dungeons, HW/SB/ShB AR and so on, becomes doable without 30 min queues. This and less dreadful level sync.

Most people want to finish a dung fast..so they can que the next or get on with other stuff..

I mean thats kinda of a case with MMOs that have daily random content filtering for rewards. Currently playing WoW Dragonflight and Ive been spamming Dungeon roulettes and many of the parties just go for the quickest route (despite the dungeon design is slightly more open-ended than FFXIV's case). So in that sense, those players also dont much care for the dungeon experience and only for the rewards. I think thats fine I suppose, as long as the combat is still fun which it totally is in WoW, compared to FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I mean thats kinda of a case with MMOs that have daily random content filtering for rewards. Currently playing WoW Dragonflight and Ive been spamming Dungeon roulettes and many of the parties just go for the quickest route (despite the dungeon design is slightly more open-ended than FFXIV's case). So in that sense, those players also dont much care for the dungeon experience and only for the rewards. I think thats fine I suppose, as long as the combat is still fun which it totally is in WoW, compared to FFXIV.

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My experience with this has been that WoW, even while trying to optimize a dungeon to it's fullest - Still allows failure and inconsistencies. Where in XIV, you've already optimized it fully before running it.

The CHANCE of failure makes it more alluring. Also not every tank runs the same exact route, and different dungeon tiers will determine different routes and strategies for that same dungeon.

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Originally Posted by R041

My experience with this has been that WoW, even while trying to optimize a dungeon to it's fullest - Still allows failure and inconsistencies. Where in XIV, you've already optimized it fully before running it.

The CHANCE of failure makes it more alluring. Also not every tank runs the same exact route, and different dungeon tiers will determine different routes and strategies for that same dungeon.

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so far with many of the same dungeons I have run, most of the tanks and players take the same route and skip some of the bosses. But your'e right that because of how mobs and paths are structured, the dungeon run still feels more appealing than the linearity of FFXIV design.

It's not just this game. Everyone wants to do the thing and do it fast. Back in my WoW days people rejoiced if there was a tank that could multi pull and live. Those dungeons could last an hour if not longer sometimes or people would get to a part they would keep failing and then quit.

Back in my City of Heroes days we would get Stone tanks teleporting around and gathering up mobs and then run around a corner and then the entire group would nuke the mobs the second they arrived.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

so far with many of the same dungeons I have run, most of the tanks and players take the same route and skip some of the bosses. But your'e right that because of how mobs and paths are structured, the dungeon run still feels more appealing than the linearity of FFXIV design.

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Some of the optimization need precision, and there's still a lot of opportunity to fail. Like "Okay, we gotta walk along this cliff side, don't fall down, don't move left" - You fall down? You were too slow and the pack wandered into you? Well, now it's a shitstorm of chaos. lol

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Originally Posted by Renalt

It's not just this game. Everyone wants to do the thing and do it fast. Back in my WoW days people rejoiced if there was a tank that could multi pull and live. Those dungeons could last an hour if not longer sometimes or people would get to a part they would keep failing and then quit.

Back in my City of Heroes days we would get Stone tanks teleporting around and gathering up mobs and then run around a corner and then the entire group would nuke the mobs the second they arrived.

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You're missing the point. LET THEM TRY. It's fine. The ATTEMPT to optimize is FUN. As soon as you optimize for me? I no longer have fun.

You make my rotation for me? Not fun.
You decide my route? Not fun

It's like if Sonic becomes linear and there's no way to fail - You just press forward the whole time to finish the map. It's just not fun.

WoW dungeons and raids are basically entirely different than FFXIV's, and in all honesty as much as I dont play it much anymore (I played it like 14 years or so), WoW is far superior in both aspects

WoW dungeons are decently hard, at least when it's recent content until you outgear it completely after a while, which is fair, but it still keeps a tiny bit of difficulty, lets not forget M+ which is amazing and makes the dungeon stay up to date, makes them harder and repeatable, with changing affixes regularly and also higher rewards based on the m+ rank you do.

On the other hand, FFXIV's dungeons are an absolute bore, there is no danger whatsoever, it's the same 2 or 3 packs before the boss, then boss, then packs, then boss, with nothing new at all, in a hallway type style. The only dungeon content you get once you are at max level is boring deep dungeons and the likes, in an extremely tiny amount because barely anyone does them, its ignored by most of the community, and aside from those, there's roulettes, which you have a good % chance you'll end up on 2 spells available because you are tuned down in levels so low that you have barely any spells left, but apparently that's "fun" and "entertaining"

WoW's raids are similar to alliance raid, WoW raids feel good to step a foot into, the scenery is usually amazing, Black Foundry is a good example of a nice looking raid, or even Black Temple, or multiple other things, the first time you step into it, you're kind of amazed by the scenery most of the time, same for alliance raids, the areas are nice.

However "normal" raids and even savage are basically glorified trials, you step into a room, you kill the boss with a few mechanics (harder on savage) and then you leave.

Both games really are very far apart in that regard, and not for the good in regards to FFXIV

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

A year after a break playing other MMOs, I came back for a month to play FF14. I love the music and gameplay. Playing with other players in roulettes has been a challenge. I've found that many or most don't really want to play the dungeon; they want to get their bonuses as quickly as possible, and it makes replaying these dungeons with other players awful. Frequently tanks pull more than they can chew and healers--especially sprouts--can't keep up.

I think there's an assumption that multi-player content won't be played unless there are strong incentives for jaded players. If roulettes didn't offer the same rewards--maybe even no exp or item rewards--I think queue times still wouldn't be too bad. Many players, myself included, just like to have a pleasant experience with other players--even if it means that we clear a dungeon in 22 minutes instead of 18 minutes. That said, I like the new Duty Support system, and I think it would be great to integrate it other players that want to play the game, while filling empty roles with Duty Support. (Endgame is obviously a different beast.)

In any case, 2c from a veteran-noob.

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That's a problem in just about any MMORPG with the dungeon queue system. Too many players are conditioned to think that efficiency is greater than everything else and so the rush through the content is all that matters so they can get to the next set of rewards faster.

There is a simple solution: make friends. Having fun with friends will be more valuable than the other rewards in the end. Check around your server - do you see any groups of players hanging out together that have the same FC tag? Does their company profile say Casual with content type you enjoy? Finding the right FC for you can make a difference.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Most people want to finish a dung fast..so they can que the next or get on with other stuff..

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I think that's a partial explanation but there are other factors depending on the player. Various anxiety issues as an example - the faster the dungeon is completed, the less likely for their anxiety to kick in. I know I'm a lot less likely to be paying attention to the time in the dungeon if I'm with friends than if I'm with strangers.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

Also if you think people will do roulettes with absolutely no reward whatsoever, really ? Lol

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V&C Dungeons had the bare minimum for rewards and people shit all over it, now it's dead content. I would love to see what would happen to content that had absolutely no reward tied to it.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

WoW dungeons and raids are basically entirely different than FFXIV's, and in all honesty as much as I dont play it much anymore (I played it like 14 years or so), WoW is far superior in both aspects

WoW dungeons are decently hard, at least when it's recent content until you outgear it completely after a while, which is fair, but it still keeps a tiny bit of difficulty, lets not forget M+ which is amazing and makes the dungeon stay up to date, makes them harder and repeatable, with changing affixes regularly and also higher rewards based on the m+ rank you do.

On the other hand, FFXIV's dungeons are an absolute bore, there is no danger whatsoever, it's the same 2 or 3 packs before the boss, then boss, then packs, then boss, with nothing new at all, in a hallway type style. The only dungeon content you get once you are at max level is boring deep dungeons and the likes, in an extremely tiny amount because barely anyone does them, its ignored by most of the community, and aside from those, there's roulettes, which you have a good % chance you'll end up on 2 spells available because you are tuned down in levels so low that you have barely any spells left, but apparently that's "fun" and "entertaining"

WoW's raids are similar to alliance raid, WoW raids feel good to step a foot into, the scenery is usually amazing, Black Foundry is a good example of a nice looking raid, or even Black Temple, or multiple other things, the first time you step into it, you're kind of amazed by the scenery most of the time, same for alliance raids, the areas are nice.

However "normal" raids and even savage are basically glorified trials, you step into a room, you kill the boss with a few mechanics (harder on savage) and then you leave.

Both games really are very far apart in that regard, and not for the good in regards to FFXIV

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The dungeon and raiding aspect of WoW absolutely blows FFXIV's design away. I understand why its done this way because they want to continue to make this game be the most casual friendly MMO in the market so everything is streamlined but I feel this comes at a cost. Heck the current WoW dungeons and raids are very streamlined and simple compared to the labyrinths of its heyday predecessors but even then it still manages to be just deep enough where it "feels" fun to run through compared to the monotony of FFXIV's dungeons and alliance raids.

I reeeeally wish they stop with the singular linear and narrow path layout of these dungeons. We criticized FFXIII for doing this, yet I dont see this being such a backlash by the general public in FFXIV? If you're going to make the paths linear AT LEAST make the rooms bigger and somewhat explorable with loads of mobs here and there to encourage various pull routes. Heck even have some of the dungeon bosses being able to be done somewhat out of order. Literally anything to break up the monotony.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

You can make your own group if you want to go in roulettes at a snail pace.

Also if you think people will do roulettes with absolutely no reward whatsoever, really ? Lol

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Ill second this.

I haven't touched a roulette outside of Expert (to cap tomes weekly) since maxing all my jobs in the first month of endwalker.

At what point, would i want to waste my time running roulette's in NORMAL CONTENT, that basically puts me to sleep, just for.. 10k gil? What kind of a joke is that.