I know ARR was cut down but it really needs more done with it.

The #1 reason many that quit FF14 are due to ARR. It's important for world building but it also has a lot of padding. Like the Heroes Feast quest line. Nothing is lost if that entire thing is cut out. It didn't progress the story at all and only served to frustrate players with no pay off when you realize that all that work was supposed to be for your celebration feast.

Based and true. Worldbuilding is nice and all but not when it's 20-30 hours long with very mediocre story, barely any voiced cutscenes and classes with 5 buttons (3 of which are situational).

I wouldn't hate to see things like that relegated to side quests where possible, that's for sure.

There is definitely some more trimming that could be done for ARR, Post ARR and even into HW and SB there is some trimming that can be done throughout. It will keep the pacing a bit more tighter, I mean they have definitely done work and changing some of trials into solo duty fights is a good change too.

It could some condensing definitely... But do you really want to cut out Trachtoum?

Maybe have the quests in general send you running across the entire world less... I would say the worst offender of that is the Garuda arc.

Oh come on it teaches you that eating food before a fight is a good idea. Also they said they won't take out things that introduce characters.

Not that I'm disagreeing (even after being pruned once, ARR does have some spots that still drag), but how much more new content are you willing to give up to free up the personnel and resources to do this?

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

It could some condensing definitely... But do you really want to cut out Trachtoum?

Maybe have the quests in general send you running across the entire world less... I would say the worst offender of that is the Garuda arc.

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Oh, I just remembered that... I still don't see why "we" had to do the running. What were the Scions or our allies even doing? They could have done that stuff and met up with us.

It's a lot more tolerable now than it was, and definitely, the reworks they have done with Praetorium and such have been great, that genuinely felt refreshing to see...

Now, I do think they could do with chopping more / relegating it to side quests, or frankly, incorporating some of the newer elements seen in Endwalker, e.g., the 'follow the NPC, or vice versa - type deal', I don't want to see the MSQ exclusively chopped, but also reworked so it does have that nice refreshing feel to it.

The end of ARR and the parts they reworked genuinely felt better than some parts of actual expansions.

Edit: Personally, I would be all for them using some resources that would otherwise go toward our content to make this possible, arguably they have already done so. But then I also manage to find myself always engrossed in some form of content - Something that doesn't seem to be very widely shared.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Oh, I just remembered that... I still don't see why "we" had to do the running. What were the Scions or our allies even doing? They could have done that stuff and met up with us.

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During the Garuda arc in particular? The Scions were still scattered after Livia's raid on the Waking Sands, and half of them were captured (not to mention all of the minor Scions that were killed off). We only had Alphinaud and Cid; Alphinaud was still in his stuck-up prissy rich kid phase and wouldn't lend a hand, and Cid was still amnesiac.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Oh, I just remembered that... I still don't see why "we" had to do the running. What were the Scions or our allies even doing? They could have done that stuff and met up with us.

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Well, the Scions were busy being dead and/or captured... And so the WoL goes off to on two useless side quests because the people trying to help keep making us get the wrong element crystals because padding. Also fighting a Siren.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

The #1 reason many that quit FF14 are due to ARR.

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Most new players quit an MMO anyway. The more important thing is that it's simple and intuitive. If it's too complicated it's easy to get overwhelmed and quit.

I agree that the Heroes Feast is a drag but most other MMORPG stories I've played are worse and ask me to spend hours killing the same enemy, whereas this game hardly asks me to kill any of them.

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has a lot of padding. Like the Heroes Feast quest line. Nothing is lost if that entire thing is cut out.

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Not true. It is continued as part of an EW side story and the context would be missing if it was cut out, so I don't think that SE will cut it out now, although they could alter how the heroes are presented to us.

I still say the Company of Heroes chain needed one more quest added, just to make sure people go get their damn job stones. But that's another topic entirely.

I quit during the Free trial during ARR, and came back a year later to 4k+ hours of gaming

So I will definetly chime in to agree. ARR has its importance as a base for the wordbuilding, but it doesnt excuse it for being so painfully boring to slog trough

As a XIVDiscussion post brought it up, the game could use some new content added to Old Expacs in the way of side activities or opening deep dungeons at earlier levels (while still having you sync up) to keep new players engaged

Heck, even adding 1 or 2 new Gold Saucer fully developed minigames could go a long way to keep you engaged between MSQ sessions

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Originally Posted by Raraka

As a XIVDiscussion post brought it up, the game could use some new content added to Old Expacs in the way of side activities

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The entire side activities from each expansion are available to them at each level cap (50, 60, 70 and 80). Which is a lot. Even at level 50 you have access to so much side content.

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or opening deep dungeons at earlier levels

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But you open POTD at level 17. It doesn't get much earlier than that.

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Heck, even adding 1 or 2 new Gold Saucer fully developed minigames could go a long way to keep you engaged between MSQ sessions

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This content does get added to. Doman Mahjong and open TT tournaments are the most recent, and a new GATE was added recently.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I still say the Company of Heroes chain needed one more quest added, just to make sure people go get their damn job stones. But that's another topic entirely.

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I had a post about that on the forums if you haven't liked the post already. ;) I've been lazy and not kept it active, but hey, it's there because I agree 100%.

Yesnt, Nes<and the other two variations I forgot..,>

I'm very, very against cut content, or interactions the character can partake in.

But I know there are things to streamline/trin/hedge/Cut/ETC.

like with find the real "cred" when it was removed, that was utterly disappointing.
Some supported it, but their reasoning was honestly contrarian to sickening levels.
<"This person" kinda feels> which, tbh the devs have inserted the npcs and main cast running into their own dilemmas without our involvement, just a tad more>
[Quests Leading to the Striking Tree, when they were trimmed awhile back, likely completely disconnected at this point]


Edit/Continuation:
Lots to be trimmed, but many things to be filled out. though I don't recall if they ever went back to fill in more detail on new lore.
But I'd they've done well in the past with adjustments. then they'll do well with inserting new lore into old places.
But as some will always find issue with how they trim things, I for sure did on experiencing things. others are likely to feel the same.

Can hope they get better at the story and adjusting than they are at their current state.
[No Matter how you view their quality/quantity of writting.]

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I still say the Company of Heroes chain needed one more quest added, just to make sure people go get their damn job stones. But that's another topic entirely.

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I discovered rather painfully with my sister there can be unexpected reasons people don't get their job stones.

SHe tells me she needs gear so I have a look at her and realize shes level 45 with no stone and yes she needs gear. So I ask "Why didn't you do your bard quests?"

Her answer "I don't want to be a musician I want to be an archer." Yes she is that new to the game.

It took me about 15 minutes to get her to understand that Bard is an extension of her archer. She doesn't LOSE the ability to fight with a bow she merely gains more abilities.

sigh

i happen to agree. post arr i know they cut out 30% but really they should be able to cut down more still.

nah.
everyone who whines about it should be forced to sit through the worgen starting quest in wow.
i can rip my way through arr (excluding the dungeons) faster than that godforesaken quest line in wow.

the only thing i would want changed is just the complete restructuring of the company of heroes questline revolving around titan. it's just so boring in one of the most boring areas of ARR with the most elevator-tier, grocery store-ass music with an immensely boring dungeon that even when completely redone manages to still put people to sleep.

i find the rest to be relatively tolerable tho'.

easy, just cut ARR and force the player to start at HW!

That'll definitely show them how cool and invested this story is! who seriously needs ARR!?

:D

:D

:D


:)

:)


:I


:|



*sigh*

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Originally Posted by Denji

nah.
everyone who whines about it should be forced to sit through the worgen starting quest in wow.
i can rip my way through arr (excluding the dungeons) faster than that godforesaken quest line in wow.

the only thing i would want changed is just the complete restructuring of the company of heroes questline revolving around titan. it's just so boring in one of the most boring areas of ARR with the most elevator-tier, grocery store-ass music with an immensely boring dungeon that even when completely redone manages to still put people to sleep.

i find the rest to be relatively tolerable tho'.

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excuse you Mr. Bland and have no real sense of taste, that starting zone was awesome!

well...not as awesome as the Death Knight starting zone but definitely helped introducing the player to their race and the world. Also newsflash, the whole gameplay of msq is extremely boring. The only reason people tolerate it is because of the the story being told, it just sucks that ARR has the burden of introducing the player to its world and low-scale conflicts so that the higher stake stuff in later expansions actually matter.

Imagine if all you did was just eat ice cream all day? Imagine if every quest was this planet-breaking calamity. You would quickly lose interest because there's no meaning behind the plot if everything was just all high stakes. Nothing in the story becomes valued more.

I still wish they'd fix the msq questing experience in this game to be more active and engaging but leave the damn story alone. It does it job well imo

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Originally Posted by Denji

nah.
everyone who whines about it should be forced to sit through the worgen starting quest in wow.
i can rip my way through arr (excluding the dungeons) faster than that godforesaken quest line in wow.

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As a Vanilla WoW veteran, I laugh at your later starting zones.

I just finished ARR on my alt. It's actually in a good place. I've not done the post ARR yet but from what I hear they cut out a tremendous amount of it.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

As a Vanilla WoW veteran, I laugh at your later starting zones.

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i am a vanilla wow vet. the worgen one still takes longer.
mostly because it's bugged and -still bugged to this day- and you can very easily break it during the whole city bit before the place floods.

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Originally Posted by GTK0HLK

But I know there are things to streamline/trin/hedge/Cut/ETC.

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Kobold moment.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

The #1 reason many that quit FF14 are due to ARR. It's important for world building but it also has a lot of padding. Like the Heroes Feast quest line. Nothing is lost if that entire thing is cut out. It didn't progress the story at all and only served to frustrate players with no pay off when you realize that all that work was supposed to be for your celebration feast.

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In 5.0, it's actually referenced in a cutscene in one of the choices you make and also an entire quest line in 6.0 is built around meeting those characters, so I doubt they will cut it out.

The whole "Get Cheese or no Titan" questline is the kind of obtuse design I'd expect for a Relic, not the MSQ.

always hated that questline. if i had my free will i would be like: what? heck no, i'm out. if limsas destroyed thats on you... i mean as soon as titan attacks we will know his location anyway.

but maybe its not that bad so people may realize this game is mostly about quests... a lot of quests. i always thought of it as an filter to sort the people out who dont fit in anyway... this may be true or absolutely not, but thats my take. because people who do the story are mostly more patient

It needs to be trimmed down more. I always hear people and streamers saying “arr is a slog but it gets better after” so clearly there is an issue. If people have to encourage others to push through the arr content so they dont quit then just makes fixes so it is more enjoyable for new players so its not even a thought in their mind.

I didn't have a problem with the ARR MSQ the first time I did it, and it was years before they made the changes.

I was just enjoying the game all around. I also recognize world building and building up to something over time. As was already stated in this thread, you can't just have action, action, action in a story.

The titan bit was a bit of a slog for me but since I was new to the game it didn't really matter. It provided some time to explore between events. There is a dungeon involved in it as well, Brayflox. None of the rest of ARR was really a slog for me, except the very beginning where I had to hand out food to people and couldn't use a mount to get to them. I also personally enjoyed all of ARR, so it's really just an opinion when some people don't like it.

The only things they could really change, other than the titan part, is making mounts available from the start and making all aetherytes attuned when you enter the area for the first time. Part of the issue is that with Eorzea being our home that we always come back to, we have to circulate around the city states doing story, whereas in any expansion we are exploring new territory so it can be more linear and not make us teleport around. The only other way that could be solved is to make an alternate MSQ that begins in 7.0 or another expansion, which makes it linear from the start.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

I didn't have a problem with the ARR MSQ the first time I did it, and it was years before they made the changes.

I was just enjoying the game all around. I also recognize world building and building up to something over time. As was already stated in this thread, you can't just have action, action, action in a story.

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Why not? We have cutscene, cutscene, cutscene in a videogame and yet it somehow works. If you enjoy ARR, good for you, but for average MMORPG player, it's too long with a story that isn't interesting and doesn't pay off for the insane time investment.

Worldbuilding is also shit excuse, since even that could be condensed so much more and still portray same amount of lore. And if it was more condensed, player will remember more since they won't need to remember all the useless filler.

Since this wasn't linked in a thread yet, here's Josh Strife Hayes's video on why videogames should be good from a start and not after X hours. Whole video is on point and perfectly fits current state of new player's experience in FFXIV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtdaby3q6NI

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Why not? We have cutscene, cutscene, cutscene in a videogame and yet it somehow works. If you enjoy ARR, good for you, but for average MMORPG player, it's too long with a story that isn't interesting and doesn't pay off for the insane time investment.

Worldbuilding is also shit excuse, since even that could be condensed so much more and still portray same amount of lore. And if it was more condensed, player will remember more since they won't need to remember all the useless filler.

Since this wasn't linked in a thread yet, here's Josh Strife Hayes's video on why videogames should be good from a start and not after X hours. Whole video is on point and perfectly fits current state of new player's experience in FFXIV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtdaby3q6NI

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This is a Final Fantasy game FIRST, and an mmo second. If a person comes in with the wrong expectations, that isn't the fault of the game.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

This is a Final Fantasy game FIRST, and an mmo second. If a person comes in with the wrong expectations, that isn't the fault of the game.

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Great excuse for flawed design. Tell me how should new player know any of that? If you search for FFXIV, you get bombed with "MMORPG" everywhere, but there is no "Warning: This game is 80% cutscenes". On top of that, you really overestimate how informed average gamer is about FF series. Everyone heard of FF, sure, but only fraction really played it and therefore knows how focused on story it is.

And even if they know, there is still benefit of the doubt. If Range Rover was to announce a new convertible, it's rational to assume that it's going look like convertible, even though company is known for SUVs. Same with FFXIV. If new title is MMORPG, it would make sense that it would play like MMORPG, not like single player FF game. I don't know how many MMORPGs have you played, but FFXIV is really unique case with the focus on a story. Expecting new players to know all of this is just naive.

Veterans trying not to gatekeep new players, the impossible challenge.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

This is a Final Fantasy game FIRST, and an mmo second. If a person comes in with the wrong expectations, that isn't the fault of the game.

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That doesn't sound like a good business decision.

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Originally Posted by Nyxs

It needs to be trimmed down more. I always hear people and streamers saying “arr is a slog but it gets better after” so clearly there is an issue. If people have to encourage others to push through the arr content so they dont quit then just makes fixes so it is more enjoyable for new players so its not even a thought in their mind.

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Funny enough Ive heard other streamers actually enjoy ARR just fine and dont see it as a slog.

You know who really drives that opinion? The FFXIV community. Just like how they enjoy to harass and push other players to play the game, pay attention to the msq, and expect people to cry in various moments in the game like Haurchefaunts death, Ardbert etc and whats worse is them pushing their own opinions on the streamers with saying things like HW good, SB bad and not letting new players whom are recording their adventures some breathing room to form their own opinions.

Thats whats really happening, its the community doing what it does best; being very, very pushy.

ARR's story is fine now.

I would just like more adjustments to ARR maps. It would be nice to have more things to do in older zones to keep drawing people back periodically, aside from S Rank hunts.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

That doesn't sound like a good business decision.

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I mean....its clearly still working somehow.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Great excuse for flawed design. Tell me how should new player know any of that? If you search for FFXIV, you get bombed with "MMORPG" everywhere, but there is no "Warning: This game is 80% cutscenes". On top of that, you really overestimate how informed average gamer is about FF series. Everyone heard of FF, sure, but only fraction really played it and therefore knows how focused on story it is.

And even if they know, there is still benefit of the doubt. If Range Rover was to announce a new convertible, it's rational to assume that it's going look like convertible, even though company is known for SUVs. Same with FFXIV. If new title is MMORPG, it would make sense that it would play like MMORPG, not like single player FF game. I don't know how many MMORPGs have you played, but FFXIV is really unique case with the focus on a story. Expecting new players to know all of this is just naive.

Veterans trying not to gatekeep new players, the impossible challenge.

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worked out well for ff11. that was their first mmorpg and it was story driven and its 20 years old. you hit onto something. not alot who may want to try this have played any of the franchise but that doesn't mean the devs make this cookie cutter as the rest of the mmo's out there. anyone who been with this franchise since the start will tell you its story driven and will remain story driven. the fact this is a mmo just means they spread the story out amongst patchs and expansions and not give it all in one go.

i also get your thought on "it would make sense it would play like mmorpg". however this thought process would again be for the people who have no prior history of this franchise. then they come into it and find out different and either like it or don't. doesn't mean its a flawed system. just means the company is still following its formula of story telling its known for since the very start of the franchise. i mean with media out there. if a person was curious as to how it is played and stuff. they only need to look at youtube videos, twitch streams, live youtube streams etc. its not like the information about what type of game this is is secret and hidden lol.