Faith, Dynamis, Aether, Summoning

Hey!

So we know that Dynamis is a space-bound energy that reacts to emotion and that it runs counter to aether. The more aether there is, the less Dynamis there will be in any given location and vice versa.

We know that summoning requires aether and faith. Faith is probably an emotion I assume.

I'm thinking about the final battle versus the endsinger, where in the moment of desperation the scions pray for us and that prayer manifests our salvation due to probably the effects of dynamis.

Now importantly this is a reenactment of what happened at the end of 1.0 where prayers where done in similar fashion to save Eorzea, except we know that rather than summoning the Twelve to intervene, instead Louisoix became the locus of an unwitting summoning ritual, transforming himself into the symbol of rebirth Phoenix.

So what the hell, was there Dynamis in effect here or is Aether also reacting to emotions or should we seperate prayer into

a) HOPE, an emotion which influenced the dynamis at the end of endwalker and

b) FAITH, which is decidedly then not an emotion and what influences Aether?

If faith is not an emotion, are we supposed to assume that faith is highest when emotions like hope and desperation are also strongest aka during concentrated efforts of prayer? That's convoluted to me, isn't then faith an emotion all the same at the end of the day?

Or does summoning not actually require faith at all, just prayer, even if you don't believe in it? So the summoning ritual is just aether-manipulation like we do as a summoner which just always coincides with prayer in all other cases?

That doesn't make any sense however because Dalamud clearly worked off off the faith of the dragons that kept Bahamut alive, not on any rituals the had to perform, I mean they were kept in stasis. Or is like the mental aetherflow that your thoughts coalesce into the ritual? Shouldn't summonings then happen all the time accidentally?

Can anybody explain to me what is going on? Let's adress the elephant in the room, is summoning actually using dynamis AND aether?

The way I understand it, is that Lahabrea went around teaching a limited version of Ancient creation magic with a specific tempering thing built into it to keep the cycle going.

When it comes to summoning "faith" is not being used as emotional fuel, but instead as a clear image of the being to be summoned. All of the summoned beings are gods or at the very least ideals (as in Shiva's case). The people summoning them are Sundered and so have very limited power in creation magic compared to the Ancients and need outside help. But together with a power source (crystals) and a common, strong faith they all have together in a single shared idea of a being, they can perform creation magic. When a clear image is not formed, like with Ga Bu's summoning of Titan, the summoning goes wrong and Titan's personality was warped by Ga Bu's state when he summoned him.

So summoning, at least to me, is purely aetheric and has nothing to do with dynamis at all.

I would like to think Hope and Faith are emotions of a sort. However this is a touchy subject as there are many who just don't want to talk about Dynamis at all and would rather hide it under the rug. Pretending it doesn't exist just because something the game sort of hinted at at various times only got a name at the 11th hour. Their bias against anything related to Dynamis is so palatable that you can taste the bitterness while watching their videos. Or when you read their posts. No, Cleretic I'm not talking about you.

I think there had been a discussion about what summoning and other things are made up of and I am on the side of a lot of things are probably a mishmash of both.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The way I understand it, is that Lahabrea went around teaching a limited version of Ancient creation magic with a specific tempering thing built into it to keep the cycle going.

When it comes to summoning "faith" is not being used as emotional fuel, but instead as a clear image of the being to be summoned. All of the summoned beings are gods or at the very least ideals (as in Shiva's case). The people summoning them are Sundered and so have very limited power in creation magic compared to the Ancients and need outside help. But together with a power source (crystals) and a common, strong faith they all have together in a single shared idea of a being, they can perform creation magic. When a clear image is not formed, like with Ga Bu's summoning of Titan, the summoning goes wrong and Titan's personality was warped by Ga Bu's state when he summoned him.

So summoning, at least to me, is purely aetheric and has nothing to do with dynamis at all.

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That makes a lot of sense to me! Except I wouldn't call Ga Bu's summoning "gone wrong" and I also disagree with the clear image thing. All summons are warped, Bahamut the Eikon is described by Tiamat as a twisted abomination or something (based on the original artwork of the high dragons Bahamut the living being definitely did not even look like the eikon but more like his siblings and those dragons deffo had a very clear mental image of what their king looked like). I assume there's inherently something volatile about the summoning process it's basically a children's first attempt at creation magic.

Phoenix and Anima were summoned entirely unconsciously, with Phoenix it's especially egregious, because the people actually prayed to the twelve, yet what emerged wasn't a twisted version of those gods or whatever, but instead an entirely different entity, one not to protect, but to rebirth, as if the people had actually lost the belief in protecting the realm and instead channeled their faith into the next best thing, you know a chance for those who would walk after.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I would like to think Hope and Faith are emotions of a sort. However this is a touchy subject as there are many who just don't want to talk about Dynamis at all and would rather hide it under the rug. Pretending it doesn't exist just because something the game sort of hinted at at various times only got a name at the 11th hour. Their bias against anything related to Dynamis is so palatable that you can taste the bitterness while watching their videos. Or when you read their posts. No, Cleretic I'm not talking about you.

I think there had been a discussion about what summoning and other things are made up of and I am on the side of a lot of things are probably a mishmash of both.

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To be honest I am confused because of the Endsinger fight and I may have extrapolated too much from that. I personally understand that Dynamis isn't well liked, because I just don't understand it at all. I couldn't write a story with dynamis in mind, because I just don't understand how it works, when it works and when not, the rules it's based on.

Regarding summoning, maybe it is so faith based in almost all cases because creation magic works on a kind of law of attraction basis? So you imagining things so strongly that you believe them entirely is what makes them possible? So creation magic is basically faith as well?

The answer for the time being is "who knows" because the connection between faith and dynamis is strictly speculative still and the only concrete facts about it are the fundamentals of it being influenced by emotion and negated by higher levels of aether.

Maybe they'll go somewhere further with it eventually...or maybe not.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

That makes a lot of sense to me! Except I wouldn't call Ga Bu's summoning "gone wrong" and I also disagree with the clear image thing. All summons are warped, Bahamut the Eikon is described by Tiamat as a twisted abomination or something (based on the original artwork of the high dragons Bahamut the living being definitely did not even look like the eikon but more like his siblings and those dragons deffo had a very clear mental image of what their king looked like). I assume there's inherently something volatile about the summoning process it's basically a children's first attempt at creation magic.

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I'd say Ga Bu's summoning was wrong. While HW and EW showed us that Lahabrea's versions of the primals differed from their source, Ga Bu's version of Titan even attacked Kobolds and spoke like Ga Bu and not Lahabrea's version of Titan.

The primals being warped is probably partly "children's first attempt at creation magic" and partly by Lahabrea's design since they're ultimately there to serve his goals in the long term. Tiamat says that the Ascians took advantage of her grief to make a monster that ended up just being a part of their plans since the Ascians gave the Allagans the method to trap primal Bahamut as well. The Lahabrea-less versions of the primals seemed much more normal and less about conquest and aether, though we didn't get much time with them to talk about it.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Phoenix and Anima were summoned entirely unconsciously, with Phoenix it's especially egregious, because the people actually prayed to the twelve, yet what emerged wasn't a twisted version of those gods or whatever, but instead an entirely different entity, one not to protect, but to rebirth, as if the people had actually lost the belief in protecting the realm and instead channeled their faith into the next best thing, you know a chance for those who would walk after.

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Phoenix, Shinryu, and Anima fit in the "ideals" category. They're the manifestation of focused ideas in combination with great amounts of aether. EE says that Phoenix specifically was "the collective subconscious of Eorzea's people and the prayers for our dying star's survival". It also says that idea fits in the current understanding of the "metaphysical logic of primal summoning". Phoenix went wrong because Louisoix got tempered by Bahamut.

But I wonder if all of this has to do with Lahabrea's original creations back before he was an Ascian. We know that there's old patterns for "Ifrita" and "Phoinix" that came from his labs. Since he's the one who goes around teaching the people how to summon, it could be that they're utilizing tweaked versions of his original creation templates that are saved somewhere in the memory of the star. It could be that the unconscious versions too are formed when strong, focused thought matches up with a concept somehow saved. That could also explain the 1.0 intro with the flying primals when Midgardsormr goes boom. He may have sealed summoning for a time but released when he died. I think it was mentioned that summoning didn't kick back up again until after that.


But back to dynamis, while it could have an effect, G'raha Tia says that because the power of dynamis is curbed on our star it took thousands of years for hopes and prayers to influence the images and personalities of the Twelve. While they're not primals, I'd imagine that the same problem of dynamis' power being weakened would mean it barely affects the actual primals too and they've only been around for 10-15 years at most and wouldn't have a chance to be warped by it.

Wait so Lahabrea invented the primals? Did he manipulate the tribal cultures around the world to make them believe in concepts he previously had created? Is the fact that you can summon them that which makes the belief? Do you need to refer to an Ascian concept in order to be able to summon at all? So Shiva was also created as a concept by the ancients and then later a real person based on the concept emerged by coincidence? And Bahamut was also actually created as a concept before the dragons landed on Hydaelyn? And the concept just happened to coincide with the dragon?

I didn't know there were what I imagine to be sort of ancient blueprints for the gods, I thought those cults and religions had developed organically and the Ascians merely provided them the means to summon, not the entire blueprint of a primal. If a concept is required, how does Ga Bu's version of Titan even exist? Is the concept wonky and Lahabrea made sure that the other kobolds would summon the "correct" version of Titan somehow?

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Wait so Lahabrea invented the primals? Did he manipulate the tribal cultures around the world to make them believe in concepts he previously had created? Is the fact that you can summon them that which makes the belief? Do you need to refer to an Ascian concept in order to be able to summon at all? So Shiva was also created as a concept by the ancients and then later a real person based on the concept emerged by coincidence? And Bahamut was also actually created as a concept before the dragons landed on Hydaelyn? And the concept just happened to coincide with the dragon?

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I think it’s more that they were influenced by Lahabrea when he was teaching them summoning, to direct their faith of their gods or past historical people during the summoning process in a way that lines up either with part of a pre-existing concept or something else of his design. I don't think he had anything to do with the growth of their religions but crazier things have happened.

It doesn’t always go his way. Remember Ramuh? He actively refused to participate in Lahabrea’s larger game and even gave us a Crystal of Light.

Koji had this to say on the subject:

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Originally Posted by Koji Fox

But remember how we once talked about how there could be multiple Ifrits? You’re just assembling pieces from the aether and forming them into something. There are parts of that being and parts of just regular energy in that core. It’s not all of their pieces. It’s some of the memories and then you’re filling out the rest. It’s kind of like when they find some tyrannosaurus bones and have to recreate the rest with plaster copies. It’s not the actual being. And then it dies off, and a little piece of it, while it’s existing in that form, goes back to the Lifestream.

When you’re talking about the Lifestream, there’s all this weirdness. And then it seems like every patch there’s a new way to summon a primal…but that’s not my fault! We have to keep thinking of new ways because they want special situations. But the essence is that, yeah, you’re pulling a piece of that person and filling in the rest of the energy that is formed based on what the summoner is thinking at that time.

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I hope someone else can find the Ifrit thing he mentioned because I can’t find it right now, but from what I think I remember, Koji mentioned that in an example where Amalj’aa are summoning Ifrit based on a certain existing thing of it in the lifestream and it can end up different from people in the New World summoning a different version of Ifrit off the same template because of their own ideas warping the finished product.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Their bias against anything related to Dynamis is so palatable that you can taste the bitterness while watching their videos. Or when you read their posts. No, Cleretic I'm not talking about you.

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Wait what? I'm very confused, I don't know how I connect here.

I think the community has a tendency to over-connect things to dynamis and try to explain everything with it, regardless of actual logic or evidence. To an extent, not really anyone's fault--dynamis is deliberately written to be very vague, and it exists in close conceptual proximity to other things that were a little loose and vague, or did have explanations that were kinda hard to find. But other times I think it's just people desperately wanting the cool new thing to connect to absolutely everything, when it just... doesn't.

Primals are, I think, actually that last one. We got an exact explanation of what faith does in that equation--MikkoAkure pretty much nailed it, it forms the 'blueprint' of what's summoned rather than any of the energy. It was explained in that scene outside the Ragnarok with Livingway; it substitutes the exacting, specific requirements of creation magic with the more loose but no less fervent requirements of faith. When you think about the actual nature of primals, it makes sense why that works better; primals more often need to be a group summoning, and while it's hard to get an entire group on the same page regarding something like 'where the liver is', it's very easy to get a group of believers in a collective faith on the same page of 'our god is an awesome god'. Also remember that primals don't need to pass a crucial requirement of lifeform-creation magic as we know it: fitting into the ecosystem. It doesn't matter if Ramuh's biology doesn't make any sense, because nobody needs Ramuh to live as a normal life form.


While not related to this thread, my personal bugbear with dynamis is people insisting every single LB is and always has been dynamis. Sure, some of them might be; that one against Lahabrea in the new 2.0 ending, that tank LB3 against the Endsinger (although everything in that fight was dynamis-fuelled, so it's not special). But there's multiple that can't be; the Seat of Sacrifice boss' LBs, the Ktisis duty support. Almost all our LB3s already have explanations, most of them excluding dynamis, although they're only in the Encyclopedia Eorzea and to my knowledge haven't been written down anywhere else, official or not. But despite all this, 'LBs are dynamis' keeps getting pushed just because it seems cool. In fact I think it genuinely stifles discussion on what dynamis actually is doing; I think Manawall's description sounds exactly like it's dynamis-fuelled, but that gets ignored because saying that Meteor is dynamis is way more exciting, even if its description says it's not.

I mentioned you cause you make lore videos, but unlike various others who do the same thing the videos you make don't drip with barely disguised disdain for anything concerning Dynamis. They don't even want to discuss anything dealing with it. Coming off as vehemently loathing it to the point of it becoming slightly spiteful all due to it being a thing named in at the 11th hour. Despite it probably being in the game for years. Just that the devs probably did the wise thing for once and didn't want to give such an abstract concept and energy source a name until then.

I feel part of the reason why people keep on asking or insisting something has to be dynamis or have a part be shaped by it is due to all of the things we've seen that could be boosted by an extreme show of emotions.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I mentioned you cause you make lore videos, but unlike various others who do the same thing the videos you make don't drip with barely disguised disdain for anything concerning Dynamis. They don't even want to discuss anything dealing with it. Coming off as vehemently loathing it to the point of it becoming slightly spiteful all due to it being a thing named in at the 11th hour. Despite it probably being in the game for years. Just that the devs probably did the wise thing for once and didn't want to give such an abstract concept and energy source a name until then.

I feel part of the reason why people keep on asking or insisting something has to be dynamis or have a part be shaped by it is due to all of the things we've seen that could be boosted by an extreme show of emotions.

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I think the struggle with dynamis for a lot of lore-talkers is that we really like dealing in concrete Facts And Evidence, and dynamis... sorta by nature doesn't do that. Even in-universe it's intended to be a reference to dark matter and energy; 'we know it's there and that's about it'. In some ways it's almost emblematic of why lore-talking around this game can often feel kinda fruitless; ever since Heavensward it's been more character-focused storytelling rather than events or facts, so talking about those events and facts feels like it's missing the point... and then dynamis comes in with the literal purpose of 'doing whatever feels right even if it doesn't make a lot of sense at the time'. I don't blame people who get invested in the worldbuilding for not liking dynamis, because its main purpose is to enforce dramatic logic over actual logic, and then people like to apply that all over the place despite it only really taking that role in a small handful of places/times.

That means things like the 'primals are dynamis' and 'LBs are dynamis' theories get much more empassioned rebuttals than if someone was just... y'know, normally wrong. Because it's an active rejection of the facts that we do have, which some of us have really put effort into learning and being able to cite, in favor of nothing more than 'this feels better'.

Yeah, one of the issues with dynamis is that even on our sundered world, dynamis is a weak force.

Limit Breaks on the Source already have explanations from the lore book directly attributing them to aether. We use dynamis against Endsinger while in open space surrounded by concentrated dynamis.

One of the pitfalls with dynamis is that it was introduced very late in order to explain something that only happens in Endwalker. To me at least, there isn't much foreshadowing for dynamis before 6.0 and it feels like it was introduced to solve a problem they just created. It would've been the least they could have done to have something of an introduction to it in 5.4 and 5.5.

I personally don't hate it nor am I spiteful at it, but at least to me it's pretty obvious that it was invented long after most of the lore was already created and it was written in such a way that makes it difficult to reconcile it with past magical phenomena that have already been explained in detail.

Where dynamis has potential in the story is not in gunking up explanations of stuff we already "know" about, but in the future of the story. The dynamis genie is out of the bottle and now we are in a world that no longer has Zodiark's aetheric bubble or a Mothercrystal. There's potential for dynamis to affect new stories and new magic. It wouldn't surprise me if our level 100 abilities are explained with dynamis. That would be a nice way to cap off our classes before the inevitable level crunch.

That subset of lore-driven interest that wants concrete answers to origins is why I think Elpis and the Ancients as the frankly too-on-the-nose Game Dev and Resource Artists expies are really popular but conversely why I don't like that aspect of them: now for so many of the in-universe animals, primals, creations, and even locale inspirations we have not only a direct answer but often the name or at least NPC figure to point to and say 'so-and-so made it.' XIV's world is much smaller and more artificial.

Dynamis as this observable but barely understood- and with study still defying a solid theory of how it works- phenomenon that doesn't play nice with XIV's 'everything is aether and we understand how aether works' turned the fundamental world-building structure into something far more realistic and palpable, or maybe that's just my entry level physics knowledge with what we know we don't know about how atoms really work. Delightfully refreshing to have highly-intelligent and well-read scientists and scholars point to something in-universe and go, "no idea how it really works." Counterintuitively, (hilariously) dynamis as a concept is trying to ...I guess the easiest way to say is Wastonion something Dolist. Then again, I do love Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time for creating ta'avern as the literal in-universe plot reason for Main Character Syndrome.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Yeah, one of the issues with dynamis is that even on our sundered world, dynamis is a weak force.

Limit Breaks on the Source already have explanations from the lore book directly attributing them to aether. We use dynamis against Endsinger while in open space surrounded by concentrated dynamis.

One of the pitfalls with dynamis is that it was introduced very late in order to explain something that only happens in Endwalker. To me at least, there isn't much foreshadowing for dynamis before 6.0 and it feels like it was introduced to solve a problem they just created. It would've been the least they could have done to have something of an introduction to it in 5.4 and 5.5.

I personally don't hate it nor am I spiteful at it, but at least to me it's pretty obvious that it was invented long after most of the lore was already created and it was written in such a way that makes it difficult to reconcile it with past magical phenomena that have already been explained in detail.

Where dynamis has potential in the story is not in gunking up explanations of stuff we already "know" about, but in the future of the story. The dynamis genie is out of the bottle and now we are in a world that no longer has Zodiark's aetheric bubble or a Mothercrystal. There's potential for dynamis to affect new stories and new magic. It wouldn't surprise me if our level 100 abilities are explained with dynamis. That would be a nice way to cap off our classes before the inevitable level crunch.

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I disagree in that it hadn't been introduced. After we learned of it I have always felt that is what we have subconsciously tapped into when we've needed a boost. Even if it's a retroactively thing that's been hinted at via things like Omega's testing. Where they observe us tapping into a power any time it looks as though we're on the ropes. To the point where they go and try to kill us in order to watch us need to tap into said power. Only to have Midgardsormr use up the last of his strength and free us before chastising Omega for trying that method and going for his nap. There's been a few other times when our enemy has expressed surprise at our ability to surpass what our sundered butt should be capable of doing. And yeah at the time all of these instances came about the devs probably didn't mean for them to hint at dynamis. Yet there's enough to be more than a coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think the struggle with dynamis for a lot of lore-talkers is that we really like dealing in concrete Facts And Evidence, and dynamis... sorta by nature doesn't do that. Even in-universe it's intended to be a reference to dark matter and energy; 'we know it's there and that's about it'. In some ways it's almost emblematic of why lore-talking around this game can often feel kinda fruitless; ever since Heavensward it's been more character-focused storytelling rather than events or facts, so talking about those events and facts feels like it's missing the point... and then dynamis comes in with the literal purpose of 'doing whatever feels right even if it doesn't make a lot of sense at the time'. I don't blame people who get invested in the worldbuilding for not liking dynamis, because its main purpose is to enforce dramatic logic over actual logic, and then people like to apply that all over the place despite it only really taking that role in a small handful of places/times.

That means things like the 'primals are dynamis' and 'LBs are dynamis' theories get much more empassioned rebuttals than if someone was just... y'know, normally wrong. Because it's an active rejection of the facts that we do have, which some of us have really put effort into learning and being able to cite, in favor of nothing more than 'this feels better'.

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I understand how it's easier and to refute some wild theory if you're dealing with cold hard fact vs when you're trying to debate about something that isn't rooted in said fact as much. I feel there's probably some more questionable summonings then what's already been brought up. Enkidoh for example is one that doesn't make much sense from a strict aether only idea. Some of Ysayle's transformations into Shiva and even Tsukiyomi. My problems is there isn't a lot of faith/prayer/hope or I guess in Yotsuyu's instance anger(?) to help complete said summoning. In some instances there's even not a whole lot of aether either. Or at least not a lot of crystals. Then again how do you try and quantify the emotional part of the equation?

Best I can think of to explain that Sanna, is that the summoning requirement is the equivalent a "glass" that needs filling. You can fill it with any combination of Aether or Dynamis, as long as the total amount completely fills the glass. But that's me taking a shot in the dark.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I understand how it's easier and to refute some wild theory if you're dealing with cold hard fact vs when you're trying to debate about something that isn't rooted in said fact as much. I feel there's probably some more questionable summonings then what's already been brought up. Enkidoh for example is one that doesn't make much sense from a strict aether only idea. Some of Ysayle's transformations into Shiva and even Tsukiyomi. My problems is there isn't a lot of faith/prayer/hope or I guess in Yotsuyu's instance anger(?) to help complete said summoning. In some instances there's even not a whole lot of aether either. Or at least not a lot of crystals. Then again how do you try and quantity the emotional part of the equation?

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Enkidu was summoned when Gilgamesh was thinking about his friend while surrounded by crystals. In Yotsuyu's case, she was also surrounded by crystals, while invoking the power of the moon and holding a relic specific to Tsukuyomi as a deity. Neither instance contradicts what we already knew about summoning and both involve focusing on a specific image in the presence of great amounts of aether. Ysayle even mentions requiring aether to transform and steals some from the Gnath's cache.

The problem I have with summoning having a dynamis component is that we already know it's related to Ancient creation magic and they did not use dynamis at all. Zodiark and Hydaelyn are said to be the oldest and most powerful primals and both are just extremely large-scale summonings performed by beings that normally can't handle dynamis.

It's also difficult to reconcile dynamis with summonings when it's already been established that primals are pure aether that require more aether and that overwhelming aether cannot interact with dynamis. Then there's the Gnath, who don't have emotions at all, but are still capable of summoning Ravana.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The problem I have with summoning having a dynamis component is that we already know it's related to Ancient creation magic and they did not use dynamis at all.

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Or did they?

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Enkidoh for example is one that doesn't make much sense from a strict aether only idea. Some of Ysayle's transformations into Shiva and even Tsukiyomi. My problems is there isn't a lot of faith/prayer/hope or I guess in Yotsuyu's instance anger(?) to help complete said summoning.

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Actually I can explain those pretty immediately and easily; it is still faith shaping the summoning, it's just a different sort of faith.

-Enkidu was summoned accidentally by Gilgamesh in a joke questline, so we're already in a weird loose situation even if Hilidbrand does play hilariously lore-accurately. But Gilgamesh did have faith in Enkidu, as a friend. He genuinely believes that Enkidu is out there somewhere and that they'll reunite someday. Enkidu was also summoned with an actual box of crystals, so we know the power source; it wasn't much, but Enkidu also wasn't much of a primal.

-Ysayle had faith in her own extremely misguided worldview and self-image; Shiva was essentially being summoned as Ysayle's idealized self. You could, in fact, argue that she'd accidentally reverse-engineered the Ancient's Weird Special Combat Forms. This faith isn't quite as strong for her final summoning against the flagship, but at that state she may have also developed a more conventional primal-summoning; her belief in the historical Shiva was always there, and is now taking the stage more than the notion that it's her. They also actually made a point that she only Primals Up into Shiva in areas with naturally high aether resources; usually natural crystal outcroppings. Again this is also a little different for the flagship battle, but there she calls on the Crystal of Light to provide that aether for her.

-Tsukuyomi is indeed an interesting one, but not because it can't have happened by the rules we know; instead, it's more because we don't really know Yotsuyu very well. She might be a woman of faith; it never really came up. But it's also notable that this was a primal who was so inaccurate to the collective image of the figure that it came up in the lore; Tsukuyomi's depicted as very calm, and... well, as a guy, so obviously Yotsuyu was not holding very close to that myth. My general vibe is that Tsukuyomi formed not because of Yotsuyu's faith in the deity per se, but her faith in herself, that happened to form into something Tsukuyomi-esque because of her own associations and the mirror that provided all the aether. I'd compare Tsukuyomi to Shinryu in a sense; not formed out of faith per se so much as stalwart conviction, a faith in yourself and your goals, so as a result the physical form was almost incidental and just informed by the summoner's personal associations. Yotsuyu got Tsukuyomi because of the mirror (and maybe some personal associations with death or the moon), Ilberd got Shinryu because of the dragon's eyes and probably his memory of Bahamut.

Faith can take many forms, and primals actually do a great job of showing that, especially in Heavensward; remember that Alexander was formed not out of faith in a god, but faith that this impossible blueprint could totally work.

Honestly, I don't see what you don't see that says these summons were somehow impossible without some Mystery Energy that, in all honesty, wouldn't have provided anything in these cases anyway.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Or did they?

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They didn't. We know because they literally couldn't, their inability to use and manipulate dynamis was a huge plot point, that... for some reason I see people just pretend doesn't exist sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

They didn't. We know because they literally couldn't, their inability to use and manipulate dynamis was a huge plot point, that... for some reason I see people just pretend doesn't exist sometimes.

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What does that mean to use and manipulate Dynamis? Are the sundered doing that?

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Originally Posted by Eisi

What does that mean to use and manipulate Dynamis? Are the sundered doing that?

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To a degree, yes, but not in the ways a lot of people say. The Ancients were too aetherically beefy to actually be able to manipulate dynamis, or to be manipulated by it--you could see this in how their 'creation magic' was the thing that broke, because they were actually immune, but their creations weren't. The elpis flower/the Heartbloom being largely inert in Elpis itself but reactive in the sundered world is the clearest example that yes, dynamis is being manipulated in the sundered world, just subconsciously.

There have been some moments in the game where dynamis probably was active now that we look back on it; probably the clearest example is the Totentantz in the Dancer questline, but there's a few more places where it's a not-unreasonable thing to bring up. It's just that the OP's example of primals is... not that.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

To a degree, yes, but not in the ways a lot of people say. The Ancients were too aetherically beefy to actually be able to manipulate dynamis, or to be manipulated by it--you could see this in how their 'creation magic' was the thing that broke, because they were actually immune, but their creations weren't. The elpis flower/the Heartbloom being largely inert in Elpis itself but reactive in the sundered world is the clearest example that yes, dynamis is being manipulated in the sundered world, just subconsciously.

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Doctor Hermes was less aetherially dense I assume than the other ancients? Cause he had the Elpis flower react.

So creation magic is kind of the opposite of dynamis manipulation am I getting that right? Basically magic in general?

Beings that are not dense in aether can manipulate dynamis and they do so with their emotions.

And on the other end of the spectrum beings that are aether-rich can manipulate aether via creation magic which is not emotions, but something else, I don't know what, it's magic. The desperation/prayer whatever that leads to summonings is coincidental, emotions certainly don't hamper magic.

Not everything physical is aether, right? So the creatures in Ultima Thule for example are just dynamis and can of themselves also influence dynamis and also interact with aetherial beings like us. Are we even made of aether in UT? Or do we get a dynamis body after Thancred's sacrifice?

So when we fight let's say a Stellar Dragon in UT, we aren't actually physically fighting it, we are manipulating some dynamis into no longer expressing in a hostile way which is substituted by physical form. In fact the form of UT itself is just a substitute for us to make sense of it rationally, does that make sense?

I don't understand anything about the story btw.

Okay this is gonna get complicated but I'm gonna try.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Doctor Hermes was less aetherially dense I assume than the other ancients? Cause he had the Elpis flower react.

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Hermes was some level of emotionally or neurologically atypical; probably depressed, but we can't exactly diagnose him. His extreme situation let him get it to actually express something different, but that is very clearly an unusual situation that wasn't happening very often, and likely didn't require much dynamis manipulation in the first place.

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So creation magic is kind of the opposite of dynamis manipulation am I getting that right? Basically magic in general?

Beings that are not dense in aether can manipulate dynamis and they do so with their emotions.

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Creation magic is not the opposite to dynamis, but Ancient creation magic was making things that were less dense in aether than their creators. The same is also true of sundered people.

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And on the other end of the spectrum beings that are aether-rich can manipulate aether via creation magic which is not emotions, but something else, I don't know what, it's magic. The desperation/prayer whatever that leads to summonings is coincidental, emotions certainly don't hamper magic.

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Creation magic is magic, yes; it's specifically probably a very aether-intensive form of magic compared to the forms we know. You're right that emotions don't hamper magic, but in some cases they go along with it; you're not exactly going to find someone who's highly desperate or religiously devout who's not also fairly emotional about those things.

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Not everything physical is aether, right? So the creatures in Ultima Thule for example are just dynamis and can of themselves also influence dynamis and also interact with aetherial beings like us. Are we even made of aether in UT? Or do we get a dynamis body after Thancred's sacrifice?

So when we fight let's say a Stellar Dragon in UT, we aren't actually physically fighting it, we are manipulating some dynamis into no longer expressing in a hostile way which is substituted by physical form. In fact the form of UT itself is just a substitute for us to make sense of it rationally, does that make sense?

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Ultima Thule is a space completely shaped to essentially run on dynamis instead of aether; it's hard to say how much of it was there before us versus how much was shaped for our needs, but my read is it was probably already there. We're running on aether biologically when we're there, but dynamis is heavy enough there to be more easily manipulated. Whether or not you're whacking that hypothetical dragon with dynamis or aether probably depends on what combat style you're using exactly, because some jobs are said to pull heavily from the world around them so they'd probably be pulling from dynamis (i.e. BLM), while others are mostly running internally so they're probably not doing anything too differently (i.e. Monk). One thing I can say is that the matter there is roughly compatible with aetherically-based matter, because the Omicron tribe questline shows that cooking, including with a mixture of Ultima Thule and Etheirys ingredients, works completely fine.

However, Ultima Thule is ultimately the land where terrestrial science and logic doesn't apply, so any of these really specific questions both weren't answered and don't really matter in the first place. Ultima Thule works like it looks like Ultima Thule works, and doesn't work like, say, Thavnair works; any more specific than that is guesswork into irrelevant minutia.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Doctor Hermes was less aetherially dense I assume than the other ancients? Cause he had the Elpis flower react.

So creation magic is kind of the opposite of dynamis manipulation am I getting that right? Basically magic in general?

Beings that are not dense in aether can manipulate dynamis and they do so with their emotions.

And on the other end of the spectrum beings that are aether-rich can manipulate aether via creation magic which is not emotions, but something else, I don't know what, it's magic. The desperation/prayer whatever that leads to summonings is coincidental, emotions certainly don't hamper magic.

Not everything physical is aether, right? So the creatures in Ultima Thule for example are just dynamis and can of themselves also influence dynamis and also interact with aetherial beings like us. Are we even made of aether in UT? Or do we get a dynamis body after Thancred's sacrifice?

So when we fight let's say a Stellar Dragon in UT, we aren't actually physically fighting it, we are manipulating some dynamis into no longer expressing in a hostile way which is substituted by physical form. In fact the form of UT itself is just a substitute for us to make sense of it rationally, does that make sense?

I don't understand anything about the story btw.

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The ancients cannot manipulate or be manipulated by akasa/dynamis as they are too aetherically dense, but they still feel emotions, which are transmitted through akasa. Hermes, being depressed Entelechies like Meteion, and the Elpis bloom, can interact with akasa by being aetherically thin.

Creation magic is not the opposite of akasa, it is just aetherial manipulation. Aetherial manipulation can and is affected by emotions, as these inform the usage of aether. Emotions, indeed, do not hamper magic, and can even amplify.

Everything physical that we know of, with the exception of the beings and locations in Ultima Thule, is made of aether. Physical aether, spiritual aether, and memory aether are the building blocks of life. Even rocks are made of aether as far as we know. Perhaps there are other types of stars out there that work differently but even the Dragonstar was seemingly made of aether.

Things in Ultima Thule work less literally, being at the edge of existence in a mass of concentrated akasa. It's the reason Shtola can see normally there, she is not using aethersight to see. The only reason the Scions survive being there, and indeed why there is a "there" to begin with, is because of Thancred's will, which eventually is cemented with hope.

My personal view is that when you are in Ultima Thule and you fight things, you do so like normal, by swinging your sword and doing magic and shooting things like normal, because you expect it to work because the place does not run on physical logic.


Mind, with all this said, that I haven't done the tribal quests in Ultima Thule, so maybe there's some other explanation there to all of this, but this is my understanding of how it all works.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Okay this is gonna get complicated but I'm gonna try.

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Thank u!

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Hermes was some level of emotionally or neurologically atypical; probably depressed, but we can't exactly diagnose him. His extreme situation let him get it to actually express something different, but that is very clearly an unusual situation that wasn't happening very often, and likely didn't require much dynamis manipulation in the first place.

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So the idea is if you feel enough you can still manipulate Dynamis even if you are too aether dense? Are irl neuroatypical people actually more emotional? Or depressed people?

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Creation magic is not the opposite to dynamis, but Ancient creation magic was making things that were less dense in aether than their creators. The same is also true of sundered people.

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I mean the higher your potential to manipulate aether, the more limited your potential to manipulate Dynamis and vice versa, is that true? That's what I meant, creation magic is the opposite of dynamis manipulation ability in that sense that you can't have both maxed out, one limits the other.

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Creation magic is magic, yes; it's specifically probably a very aether-intensive form of magic compared to the forms we know. You're right that emotions don't hamper magic, but in some cases they go along with it; you're not exactly going to find someone who's highly desperate or religiously devout who's not also fairly emotional about those things.

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So a believer would create a Dynamis primal if the medium was different! So if I give u a bunch of dynamis crystals for example.

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Ultima Thule is a space completely shaped to essentially run on dynamis instead of aether; it's hard to say how much of it was there before us versus how much was shaped for our needs, but my read is it was probably already there. We're running on aether biologically when we're there, but dynamis is heavy enough there to be more easily manipulated.

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So we are breathing in dynamis and turn it into aetherial air by believing it to be able to sustain us or am I wrong? Isn't that basically creation magic but with dynamis? Except that dynamis can form aether but not the other way around?

Is the universe a sea of dynamis in which stars of aether are born? Isn't there a galactic lifestream as well? With memories and kinda natural blueprints? Would that not make a whole lot of sense if that brought forth new stars through dynamis?

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Whether or not you're whacking that hypothetical dragon with dynamis or aether probably depends on what combat style you're using exactly, because some jobs are said to pull heavily from the world around them so they'd probably be pulling from dynamis (i.e. BLM), while others are mostly running internally so they're probably not doing anything too differently (i.e. Monk). One thing I can say is that the matter there is roughly compatible with aetherically-based matter, because the Omicron tribe questline shows that cooking, including with a mixture of Ultima Thule and Etheirys ingredients, works completely fine.

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Yeah that makes sense, dynamis can be anything if u feel it right.

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However, Ultima Thule is ultimately the land where terrestrial science and logic doesn't apply, so any of these really specific questions both weren't answered and don't really matter in the first place. Ultima Thule works like it looks like Ultima Thule works, and doesn't work like, say, Thavnair works; any more specific than that is guesswork into irrelevant minutia.

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I care a lot, because I love needlessly speculating, but maybe Dynamis shouldn't return and be forgotten. I mean at the end of the day nobody ever really knew or cared about it on Hydaelyn either, so it can't be too impactful of a thing.

However the final days was dynamis waves wasn't it? pretty big deal, maybe someone else finds a use for dynamis now that a highway to UT exists? Or even just by opening a space portal!

Hope it's not annoying! Thanks for the good answers ♥

Elpis flowers are entelechies. Entelechies turn potential into actuality ('telos' meaning 'end'). The ambient emotion that they experience is converted into a manifestation of Dynamis.

Everyone has emotions, regardless of aetheric composition. So rather than saying that Hermes changes the colour of the Elpis flower, it's more accurate to say that the Elpis flower responds to the ambient emotion that Hermes possesses and changes its colour by a dynamis-mediated effect.

The same is true for Meteion as well. As an entelechy, she experiences others' emotions as if they were her own (refer to the candied apples example). She is so influenced by the negative ambiance of Ultima Thule that she speaks on behalf of the dead ('We have suffered.') Our fight with her is not really about wielding Dynamis as a weapon the same way we would Aether. We simply alter the emotional state of Ultima Thule by introducing our hope, our beliefs, and our resilience. And slowly, Ultima Thule itself changes as a result through the power of Dynamis. This is more of a subconscious act than a conscious one.

The Aether limitation has to do with the fact that Dynamis itself is more subtle than Aether. As an analogy, in our own world, physics describes four fundamental forces - Gravity, Electromagnetism, Strong Nuclear and Weak Nuclear forces. Each of these are influenced by the scale that you're looking at. So while the Strong Nuclear Force may be much more powerful on a subatomic level, it might appear insignificant when you're talking about physical objects that we see in our day to day lives (which are dominated by Gravity and Electromagnetism). Dynamis effects themselves are less obvious in very aetherically dense regions, and very aetherically dense beings are less likely to affect or be affected by Dynamis (much like how a planet's movement is more likely to be influenced by Gravity than the Strong Nuclear Force). But as the aetheric density lessens in the outer expanses of space, Dynamis comes to dominate. Hermes is not able to influence Dynamis directly. However, by creating a being of suitable aetheric density, he can observe Dynamis-related effects manifest themselves, similar to how the Hannish scholars did by observing Elpis blooms (or similar to how humans use accelerators to create subatomic particles and observe Strong Nuclear effects).

On the subject of whether there's a connection between Faith and Dynamis, that's hard to say at this point. If you take everything that the Amaurotines put forward as truth, then Summoning is merely a derivative and inferior form of their own Creation magic. But they didn't really know about Dynamis in the first place. It's possible that, unconsciously, modern summoners have produced something with even more potential power than the Amaurotines previously envisioned, by linking Aether and Dynamis. Perhaps we'll learn more in Meracydia.

As to why some people are so reluctant to accept the discussion about Dynamis/Akasha, it really depends on the person. Dogma is always difficult to overcome, and if you introduce something as a 'rule' initially, some people can't move past the possibility that it could be wrong. Science perpetually requires you to have the flexibility to reject old theories. Personally, I really like the 'thought/feeling' dichotomy that it presents. It's also interesting seeing a clash of values between the traditional classical thinking that has dominated Western philosophy and Vedic mysticism/spiritualism.

I really don't like Shinryu as when I originally went through it I thought that everyone else who lay there dying would have been counted as part of they who summoned. I'm not sure why I didn't figure that those who had been praying to Rhalgr were just the fuel. Or that it doesn't really take much on the emotional side since both Titan and Ifrit get summoned with just 2-3 of their followers when Garuda is trying to stave off her death after we defeated her. I guess I never equated the strength of the current summon of whatever primal was really only reliant on the amount of aether used up and that whatever filled in the faith/prayer aspect didn't really matter or how much of it got put in.

Edit: I did mean the Shiva summoning mid falling one when I mentioned Ysayle.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Elpis flowers are entelechies. Entelechies turn potential into actuality ('telos' meaning 'end'). The ambient emotion that they experience is converted into a manifestation of Dynamis.

Everyone has emotions, regardless of aetheric composition. So rather than saying that Hermes changes the colour of the Elpis flower, it's more accurate to say that the Elpis flower responds to the ambient emotion that Hermes possesses and changes its colour by a dynamis-mediated effect.

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Ok I understand!

So Aetherys has Dynamis and Aether. However there is so much aether that dynamis interactions can almost not happen. Entelechies, which are themselves aetherial beings, not made of dynamis, are an exception, they, through some sort of interaction with ambient dynamis change their aetherial composition.

So:

Elpis flower >>>(change in ambient dynamis by way of change in ambient emotion)>>> Color change.

So the change in dynamis is the same wherever you go, it's just that in aether-rich environments that usually doesn't affect anything did I get that right? It's not that Dynamis is less volatile on Etheirys or that the beings on Etheirys are less capable of influencing it or anything, it simply doesn't get to itself then influence anything outside of entelechies.

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The same is true for Meteion as well. As an entelechy, she experiences others' emotions as if they were her own (refer to the candied apples example). She is so influenced by the negative ambiance of Ultima Thule that she speaks on behalf of the dead ('We have suffered.') Our fight with her is not really about wielding Dynamis as a weapon the same way we would Aether. We simply alter the emotional state of Ultima Thule by introducing our hope, our beliefs, and our resilience. And slowly, Ultima Thule itself changes as a result through the power of Dynamis. This is more of a subconscious act than a conscious one.

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And it doesn't matter how aetherially dense we are right? Ultima Thule will react the same way even if we were Unsundered.

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Dynamis effects themselves are less obvious in very aetherically dense regions, and very aetherically dense beings are less likely to affect or be affected by Dynamis (much like how a planet's movement is more likely to be influenced by Gravity than the Strong Nuclear Force).

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Oh, ok I didn't understand it then. So my new understanding that would follow from this is then that the emotions that influence ambient dynamis are still there, but in aetherially dense people they get blocked by their aether kinda. So that the Dynamis doesn't get affected.

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But as the aetheric density lessens in the outer expanses of space, Dynamis comes to dominate. Hermes is not able to influence Dynamis directly.

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I so don't understand this. Every time I think I got it something comes up that throws me off again. So Hermes can't influence Dynamis, but didn't the Elpis flowers change color for him? He must have influenced dynamis with his emotions. Subconsciously, sure, but he could do it! Just like us, no?

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However, by creating a being of suitable aetheric density, he can observe Dynamis-related effects manifest themselves, similar to how the Hannish scholars did by observing Elpis blooms (or similar to how humans use accelerators to create subatomic particles and observe Strong Nuclear effects).

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Makes sense, but just being low in aether doesn't make you an entelechy am I right?

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On the subject of whether there's a connection between Faith and Dynamis, that's hard to say at this point. If you take everything that the Amaurotines put forward as truth, then Summoning is merely a derivative and inferior form of their own Creation magic. But they didn't really know about Dynamis in the first place. It's possible that, unconsciously, modern summoners have produced something with even more potential power than the Amaurotines previously envisioned, by linking Aether and Dynamis. Perhaps we'll learn more in Meracydia.

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That would be cool! I kinda don't wanna see Dynamis dropped tbh.

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As to why some people are so reluctant to accept the discussion about Dynamis/Akasha, it really depends on the person. Dogma is always difficult to overcome, and if you introduce something as a 'rule' initially, some people can't move past the possibility that it could be wrong. Science perpetually requires you to have the flexibility to reject old theories. Personally, I really like the 'thought/feeling' dichotomy that it presents. It's also interesting seeing a clash of values between the traditional classical thinking that has dominated Western philosophy and Vedic mysticism/spiritualism.

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I have a hard time with a concept that is deliberately designed to be vague, it seems like it's an asspull tool tbh and that's why it doesn't have clear rules and limitations.

I like characters and themes and emotions, those are all allowed to be contradictory and confusing if they resonate well. But a fictional energy form with massive and very obvious effects I'd like to be more clearly defined personally.

I know there's a specific sidequest with a viera boy that praying to a crystal charm was a form of dynamis.but we already knowing summoning is just the derivative of Ancient ones' creation magic, it would be devoid of dynamis involvement since the ancients are already established to not be capable to sense or use them.

Emotions do influence primal summonings (Most notably when Ga Bu summons Titan) and aether is also described as being capable of being manipulated by raw emotion (Such as with DRK)...but both bits of lore were established before dynamis was even conceptualized, so unless explicitly confirmed I feel reluctant to immediately attribute any magicks or phenomena involving emotion to dynamis and rather believe there's some degree of overlap in that regard.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Emotions do influence primal summonings (Most notably when Ga Bu summons Titan) and aether is also described as being capable of being manipulated by raw emotion (Such as with DRK)...but both bits of lore were established before dynamis was even conceptualized, so unless explicitly confirmed I feel reluctant to immediately attribute any magicks or phenomena involving emotion to dynamis and rather believe there's some degree of overlap in that regard.

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Yeah, most of what gets attributed to dynamis that isn't credited with that in the actual game just strikes me as completely understandable without them; nobody was saying that Dark Knight made no sense before Endwalker, after all.

Even the one I do stand behind, the Totentantz, I don't just stand behind because I looked at it and went 'yep, that looks like dynamis'. It mostly stands out to me because if you talk to random NPCs around Radz-at-Han, one of them will describe the Blasphemies in exactly the same terms that the dancer troupe describes the Totentantz, and with Thavnair having a formalized if esoteric study into the concept* before the sky exploded, it seems like that's not just coincidence that two different Hannish sources use matching descriptions.

*Still a little annoyed that everyone just stopped using the term 'akasa' the moment 'dynamis' got introduced, by the way; it feels like marginalizing Thavnair for no reason, and 'akasa' is just a much more interesting word to say in conversation.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

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Entelechies are not the only entities capable of interacting with Dynamis. The tank limit break that we use during the fight with the Endsinger has been identified as a manifestation of Dynamis. The only limitation that we've been told about is based on aetheric density. Meteion comments that we appear to be similar to entelechies in terms of density, but Hermes clarifies that we're not the same. One major difference that makes us different from Entelechies is that we don't experience others' emotions as our own. That ends up being a critical point in Ultima Thule, as the emotions we bring with us override the despair of the place, whereas an entelechy would be overwhelmed by it.

In the case of the Amaurotines, their higher aetheric density means that they can't interact directly with Dynamis or be directly affected by it. During the Final Days of Amaurot, the Amaurotines themselves didn't transform into blasphemies, because they cannot be directly affected by it. Their creations transformed instead, because they were at a lower aetheric density, and the creations turned on their masters. There are interesting implications around this, though. The Role Quests had us hunt down all the 'original' Blasphemies who initiated the Final Days to each region. Which raises the question of who or what was the very first Blasphemy that brought on the downfall of Amaurot? It couldn't be an Amaurotine, because they wouldn't have transformed even if they were in despair. Was it a creation frustrated with their living conditions? Or could it be a despairing soul that was inadvertently fused to a creation, as described in the Phoinix story? Or perhaps it was a hemitheos.

The Elpis blooms lead scholars to deduce the existence of Dynamis. It's not that you're using Dynamis to change the colour of the flower. The reason the flower is able to manifest a colour change is because it is the source of that Dynamis effect, not the person holding it. That's why other flowers don't change colour in response to your emotions. The reason that your feelings are able to influence the Elpis blooms is because they are entelechies, much like how Meteion's emotional state changes when she's around Hermes.