SCH - Faerie Galmour: Discuss!

Title.

Per the Liveletter, SCH is going to be able to glamour their Faerie to be Eos, Selene...or even Carbuncle. Which...should be interesting and should make SCH's Carbunkle actually cast things.

Wonder what Aetherpact will look like...

I wish we got different fairies, maybe a male fairy?

people have been asking for years for fairy glamours

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ur#post5515337

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ur#post5065400

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...eborn/78269726

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...r_pet_glamour/

Its kinda disappointing. What is the point of us glamouring eos and selene while we can still cast them? Unless they are going to get rid of one of them just so they can do the glamour. I know people was asking for Carbuncle for a while but they could had add more

I guess that means summon eos/selene will be unified.

Also I wonder if there's going to be a "carbuncle-seraph" of if a squirrel just transform into a bird

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Originally Posted by Calysto

I guess that means summon eos/selene will be unified.

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This, appears like those two buttons are on the chopping block for SCH and will be merged into one button. Guess this means SCH is likely getting a new button in 7.0.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

This, appears like those two buttons are on the chopping block for SCH and will be merged into one button. Guess this means SCH is likely getting a new button in 7.0.

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Tbh I'm kind of hoping Summon is replaced by Summon Seraph in 7.0. Make Seraph a permanent upgrade to the fairy please.

Seems like they're finally killing off having 2 fairies if they're finally giving us Fairy Glams. What a waste

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Seems like they're finally killing off having 2 fairies if they're finally giving us Fairy Glams. What a waste

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Most people never touched Selene even when you could swap between them. Eos' Whispering Dawn was just considered too good to give up.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Most people never touched Selene even when you could swap between them. Eos' Whispering Dawn was just considered too good to give up.

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What people considered and what was factual do not coincide.
Eos was the safe option more often than not and even then, there was nothing wrong with using Selene to start the fight before swapping her to Eos. All this decision does is remove any chance of making the Fairies unique again instead of expanding on SCH in any meaningful way.

So healers are still rubbish to play, but now SCH can use Carbuncle.

...Is this game a joke? Other game are churning out walls of job reworks and big changes and you get one new glamor fairy. Amazing.

Discuss? Only thing I'm seeing is 'they have even less reason to not have Feo Ul as a Seraph glamour option'

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

So healers are still rubbish to play, but now SCH can use Carbuncle.

...Is this game a joke? Other game are churning out walls of job reworks and big changes and you get one new glamor fairy. Amazing.

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Reworks mid expansion are rare, you have to usually wait for a new one for it...which again just reminds me that SCH needs a rework. But apparently AST comes first...again.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Seems like they're finally killing off having 2 fairies if they're finally giving us Fairy Glams. What a waste

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SE is very much in favor of removing choice in favor of having "the best choice" be the only option. Unfortunately with 5.x+ job design, there was never a possibility of distinct fairies coming back as long as there would be "the better option" in the current system. They could've made the fairies oGCDs so you could switch between them easily in combat, but instead they opted to keep it the same where you have one fairy out and they stay out for the entirety of the encounter.
Especially with SGE being a SCH clone and for SE wanting SCH and SGE to have parity in their kits, there was no chance of having 2 different fairies again, unfortunately without them copying the system for SGE too.
Unfortunately SCH is more likely to get DPS buttons than to have separate fairies again IMO, and I think there's basically no chance it's getting more DPS buttons any time soon

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Reworks mid expansion are rare, you have to usually wait for a new one for it...which again just reminds me that SCH needs a rework. But apparently AST comes first...again.

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Problem is, reworks for a new expansion rarely goes well for healers and by then it's "oops, too late to change it, deal with it till x.1 for a bandaid ; we'll screw it anew in 2 years anyway"

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Reworks mid expansion are rare, you have to usually wait for a new one for it...which again just reminds me that SCH needs a rework. But apparently AST comes first...again.

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Think Liam's point is that 'other MMO' reworked Prot and Ret Paladin in 10.0.7, with the fully completed rework being finished in 10.1, that's right it was a MINOR patch that did some of the rework changes. It's all well and good saying 'wait for an expansion so we can do big changes then', but it's also a case of kicking the can down the road, and people are tired of getting told 'well, just wait and see wink emoji', we get told it every time we ask if healing will be more strenuous in the next expansion and it never is, so it's understandable that people are at the point of 'no, if you're gonna rework it and it needs a rework that badly, get it done sooner rather than later', because if the rework doesn't actually address the problems sufficiently, what are they gonna do, go 'oopsy whoopsy we didn't get it right, guess you'll have to wait for NEXT expansion for us to finish the job, because it's such a m a j o r rework we can't do it in a patch'

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

So healers are still rubbish to play, but now SCH can use Carbuncle.

...Is this game a joke? Other game are churning out walls of job reworks and big changes and you get one new glamor fairy. Amazing.

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Just wait until 7.0! *7.0 launches*
I mean, surely you didn't expect for them to change healers in 7.0? Just wait until 8.0! You're stuck with this for 2-3 years, just how the game is! *8.0 launches*
I mean, sure you didn't expect...

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Just wait until 7.0! *7.0 launches*
I mean, surely you didn't expect for them to change healers in 7.0? Just wait until 8.0! You're stuck with this for 2-3 years, just how the game is! *8.0 launches*
I mean, sure you didn't expect...

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That thread about waiting til the next patch needs to come back.

Given yoshida's known hatred of pet jobs and healers in particular, I didn't think this would ever be a thing.

The wording is ambiguous enough on whether its Eos+Selene or Emerald+Topaz or whether it will be Eos+Carbuncle. Either way, rip fairies being a thing again.

This kinda confirms they have no intentions of reworking Selene or adding depth to fairies for 7.0. I'm a little disappointed since it's what got me interested in SCH in the first place...

Anyways, I won't be using the glamour feature but I'm glad it's there for others to customize.

SE's track record with healers and x.0 patches is rather concerning :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Most people never touched Selene even when you could swap between them. Eos' Whispering Dawn was just considered too good to give up.

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I always used Selene. The haste was too powerful.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I always used Selene. The haste was too powerful.

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I never touched Selene, but that was because I kept getting a lot of fools for whom I needed Whispering Dawn ASAP to keep up and running. There's a reason why I'm a jaded healer, and ARR/HW pugs are the reasons why.

The ultimate irony was that Selene's haste was actually awful back then. The ARR tooltips were just comically misleading.

Didn't Fey Wind only give something like one extra GCD over its duration? Either that or it was less than that amount. Definitely less safe than having Whispering Dawn on hand, and arguably the time + resources saved for the SCH made up for FW's pitiful damage boost.

I remember it being listed as '3% haste', whether that means 'increased spellspeed and skillspeed stat by 3% for duration' or more akin to Bozja haste (where even 1% can knock up to 0.03sec off the GCD) I don't know.

I know it was a case of 'use before pull, swap to Eos as it goes out, hardcast Broil timed to pull timer' and then Whispering Dawn was the go-to since it reduced healing GCDs needed. Also, back then, Rouse was a thing and affected WD

The tooltip actually originally listed Light/Glow as 30% haste lol.

If I remember correctly, it acted on your item spell/skill speed and given how stingy sub stats were back then combined with jobs quickly leaning towards crit, you'd generally get 0.01-0.02 off your GCD and that was that.

The end result was that it might net you a handful of extra GCDs in a longer target dummy type fight. As soon as you missed GCDs for movement, the benefit was almost entirely lost. Even with how bad it clearly was, a lot of people mindlessly drank the tooltip coolaid for it though. I still chuckle at the negativity that was thrown at me back in the day whenever I tried to explain to people that it was generally better to go with Eos and use Whispering Dawn to get more DPS time in.

Where Selene's haste did shine was with min maxing with Dissipation though.

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Originally Posted by Calysto

I guess that means summon eos/selene will be unified.

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They already are, effectively. "Summon 1" and "Summon 2" which do the same exact thing are redundant at this point since Egi-Glam has existed (for SMNs...) for ages now.

I kinda wish they'd just make the Faerie automatic at this point. You equip SCH Job, Faerie comes out. You get KO'd the raised, Faerie comes out.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Most people never touched Selene even when you could swap between them. Eos' Whispering Dawn was just considered too good to give up.

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This.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

So healers are still rubbish to play, but now SCH can use Carbuncle.

...Is this game a joke? Other game are churning out walls of job reworks and big changes and you get one new glamor fairy. Amazing.

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(1) To be fair, many people HAVE been asking for JUST THIS THING for a while now on SCH - both being able to Egi-Glam them if they're going to be the same and able to use Carbie instad.

(2) Almost no game does massive reworks in the middle of an expansion unless there's some huge crisis emergency. This is 6.4 not 7.0. I know I know:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

It's all well and good saying 'wait for an expansion so we can do big changes then', but it's also a case of kicking the can down the road, and people are tired of getting told 'well, just wait and see wink emoji', we get told it every time...

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...and (might surprise some) I actually agree with ForsakenRoe on this one. But the point still stands that major reworks aren't going to happen in a middle-of-expansion patch. For Healers in particular.

Part of this is the Kaiten response, though. They got super gun shy about making any reworks after that. They were going to do the DRG and AST (a healer) reworks in 6.2 or 6.3, as you may recall. And after the abject meltdown over Kaiten, they decided not to touch them until 7.0. The only reason they did PLD was because it was significantly behind the others, and the only other Job to get something was MCH (also underperforming), but in the form of returning an old ability not in anything resembling a major rework. Even PLD's rework would arguably be considered minor-ish or on the line between minor and major since parts of the core rotation remain and its oGCDs and defensive abilities were essentially untouched other than getting Bulwark back and Shelltron changed to a flat damage reduction and FoF a flat damage increase. The Confetti combo still comes after Requiescat and Royal still leads into 3x Atonement, with the main difference being mutilating Goring and removing the second combo and chunking HS after Royal for self-sustain. Definitely a rework, but not a top down major overhaul...which is what I suspect AST is in for and SCH may need.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I never touched Selene, but that was because I kept getting a lot of fools for whom I needed Whispering Dawn ASAP to keep up and running. There's a reason why I'm a jaded healer, and ARR/HW pugs are the reasons why.

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Mhm.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

The ultimate irony was that Selene's haste was actually awful back then. The ARR tooltips were just comically misleading.

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Double Mhm.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Most people never touched Selene even when you could swap between them. Eos' Whispering Dawn was just considered too good to give up.

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Oop, I missed this one...

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ntasy/cvja671/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...959/?context=3

These reddit posts pretty much sum up the sentiment amongst mid to high tier SCH players in mid ARR.

And this is why:

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/inde...xt&oldid=95227

Remember that parsing was very much a tool of the hardcore progression raider back then, data wasn't remotely as accessible as it is now and the logs site wasn't a thing either. You either had to spend hours in your FC garden slapping a dummy and then mathing up the numbers with friends on the FC guildwork site or you had to trust randoms such as californiagaruda on reddit coming out with corkers like

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There are zero reasons why having MORE Skill/Spellspeed is a "nuisance".
That is one of the more ass-backwards things I have read here in a while.
Never will a super weak, half the potency of Medica II pet heal be a virtual DPS increase on account of a SCH getting to DPS more. At least nowhere in comparison to huge 40% buffs to SS.
Please don't steer less informed people down the path of blatant ignorance -___-

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This wasn't a one off. This was the accepted train of thought at the time.

Once HW came along it adjusted the tooltips to be a more sensible flat 3% meaning that it actually did something for those that weren't stacking spell/skill speed. Even with this improvement to the ability combined with Light/Glow getting merged into a single ability, the mainstream train of thought came round to seeing how powerful Whispering Dawn actually was and that SCH could actually do some serious DPS especially in AoE situations.

It was this myth of Fey Glow/Light/Wind being super powerful that inspired me to do my 1000 DPS SCH guide at the start of HW.

Interesting even back in ARR, people were saying this:

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Originally Posted by begentlewithme

Despite all this I still get bitched at for not dpsing during dungeon runs. Well excuse me for not having a constant need to keep my abilities off cooldown. I'll update you guys once I want to actually play summoner.

Hint. I'm NOT a summoner with extra healing potency. So don't treat me like one.

Edit: No surprise on the downvotes. You guys need to understand one thing -- I play healer because I don't like DPS'ing, and this is coming from a previous Bard main. It's boring, it's stressful, and it's mindnumbing. I play healer because I like healing, and no part of its core job description does it say I need to DPS, that's secondary. The whole point of healer DPS is supplementing your groups core DPS, but if it's unnecessary then I don't want to do it. Unless it's Coil or I'm trying to break a speedrun record, I don't want to put in the extra trouble to shave a few minutes off a run. You guys don't pay my $15 a month subscription, don't tell me how I should enjoy the game. If the fact that I'm not shaving 2-3 minutes of a dungeon run is ruining your fun, then I'm sorry but you have other priorities you need to really consider. If you're so worried about time, then run with your static group wearing all BiS.

You can call me lazy, there's a shade of truth in there. I only DPS when I'm running with a static group, but for DF pugs (on dungeons no less), I don't feel like it. Stop telling me to DPS. You're not automatically entitled to 2 minutes of your life just because I'm a scholar. I do my core job, nothing else, and if you want healer DPS then find me in coil or party with one who's willing to go with you, otherwise sit your ass down and continue with your dungeon run because I can at least assure you that we won't wipe from any deaths

"He doesn't want to DPS, he must be a trash healer". I don't.... like I can't even understand the train of thought here. I'm not sure how my unwillingness to DPS in DF dungeons suddenly makes me a bad healer, but whatever helps you guys sleep at night. I'm not exactly striving to push 100% in anything outside of coil, but if you're going to judge me as a person for it, then I guess it speaks a lot about you as a person for getting upset and throwing personal insults over 2-3 minutes in a video game.

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EDIT: As in, hyper on that side of things. Even I'm not that anti-damage, lol

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Interesting even back in ARR, people were saying this:

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That thread of discussion was everywhere back then. DPSing vs non DPSing healers was a huge topic pretty much from mid to late ARR until early SB when Cleric Stance getting neutered broke the back of the argument and effectively smushed the two sides together wether they liked it or not ;)

It's actually pretty rare to see a healer in level cap content that's not throwing any DPS at all now. Back then it was fairly common.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

That thread of discussion was everywhere back then. DPSing vs non DPSing healers was a huge topic pretty much from mid to late ARR until early SB when Cleric Stance getting neutered broke the back of the argument and effectively smushed the two sides together wether they liked it or not ;)

It's actually pretty rare to see a healer in level cap content that's not throwing any DPS at all now. Back then it was fairly common.

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This was always the strangest of bizarre takes to me. I've played multiple MMOs before this one. FF14 is the first game I've ever seen with I pLaY a HeALeR TO heAL, HeALeRS SHouLd HeAL ONLY advocacy group. I've never seen an RPG where anyone's argued this. It's the weirdest box to cage the healer role in, and it's so anti-reality that it hurts my brain.

In fairness, I'm fairly certain FFXIV wasn't the first MMO to come up with a cleric stance style concept, but I certainly don't remember any other MMO having a method of gating healer DPS that was quite so clunky and poorly implemented.

Also fair, but I've never played a game where I spent more than...I wanna say 50% maximum of my time healing outside difficult cutting-edge content. I've played games where that other 50%+ of the time has been spent buffing, attacking, debuffing, even (zzzzzz) /sitting for MP, what have you, but entering a game, be it video, board, tabletop, anything where the expectation is "spend most of my time spamming healing spells" is such a wild departure from how game design works that it's strange to see so much constant, obstinate harrumphing about it.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

This was always the strangest of bizarre takes to me. I've played multiple MMOs before this one. FF14 is the first game I've ever seen with I pLaY a HeALeR TO heAL, HeALeRS SHouLd HeAL ONLY advocacy group. I've never seen an RPG where anyone's argued this. It's the weirdest box to cage the healer role in, and it's so anti-reality that it hurts my brain.

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Keep in mind in other MMOs healers mostly just supported with buffs and all that as well. Damage moves were there, but if you were using them literally you had nothing to do, which did not happen that often. One of the MMOs I played I was having to throw out buffs left and right when I wasn't healing, and I got to use a single damage move once every 30s-1m depending on where we were at and the group. I have a sneaking suspicion that was part of the mindset, the fact that healers in other MMOs were mostly just plain support, DPS was something you just didn't do that often.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Keep in mind in other MMOs healers mostly just supported with buffs and all that as well. Damage moves were there, but if you were using them literally you had nothing to do, which did not happen that often. One of the MMOs I played I was having to throw out buffs left and right when I wasn't healing, and I got to use a single damage move once every 30s-1m depending on where we were at and the group. I have a sneaking suspicion that was part of the mindset, the fact that healers in other MMOs were mostly just plain support, DPS was something you just didn't do that often.

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It's also partially just me; the first MMO I played, that was the expectation for healers. Buffing, healing, and /sit, with an occasional damage spell. Everyone could use a pet in that game, and the zeitgeist had healers use the standard Eos-style healing one (unless they had something rarer). I did that for like...five minutes, then noticed just how infrequently I *actually* had to heal the tank. Yeah, it was more hectic with a shorter GCD than FF14, so the typical casting profile looked something like

regen-> (3 GCDs) -> cure-> (1 GCD) -> regen-> (1 GCD) -> buff -> (1 GCD) -> cure -> (4 free GCDs)

so it was less obvious than the vast monotonous stretches of no damage that current FF14 has, granted. But I saw those gaps, realized how little of the heavy lifting the healing pet could take off there, and swapped it for a damage dealer. People may have found it odd when they saw me pull the damage pet out, but noticed they stayed alive just fine. Those gaps have always existed. And as long as games aren't designed to be white-knuckle always on point healing catastrophe scenarios, they always will. Community expectations are weird; they often refuse to understand what the concept of a skill ceiling means, and that you can't just...design it out of a class. It's going to be there. The design determines whether it's boring or not.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Title.

Per the Liveletter, SCH is going to be able to glamour their Faerie to be Eos, Selene...or even Carbuncle. Which...should be interesting and should make SCH's Carbunkle actually cast things.

Wonder what Aetherpact will look like...

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Just a setup to consolidate the fairies in 1 button to give that free hot bar a new ability for 7.0. A returning, improved ability? That’s what I’m assuming.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

This was always the strangest of bizarre takes to me. I've played multiple MMOs before this one. FF14 is the first game I've ever seen with I pLaY a HeALeR TO heAL, HeALeRS SHouLd HeAL ONLY advocacy group. I've never seen an RPG where anyone's argued this. It's the weirdest box to cage the healer role in, and it's so anti-reality that it hurts my brain.

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It's funny because in games like WoW you have a whole range of dps buttons with the option to talent into more ...and you heal non-stop. Sometimes you barely get the chance to press your dps buttons. FF14 is one of the few games that won't let you play healer to heal and the Sylphies will argue to the death about changing any of it.

Most healers in FF14 are simply terrible players. I mean, we have people who claim P5-8s is a big jump in healing when you heal less than in Normal modes in other games. It's still a joke of a tier in terms of healing.

Sylphies play healer to turn their brain off and be carried and "I play healer to HEAL" is a convenient excuse. Suggest making content much harder and the argument swings to "I play this game to have FUN and relax" and "think of the new players, they'd be stressed!".
FF14 players would be absolutely delighted with a healer that simply has a 400 potency DoT with infinite duration, pulses a passive HoT on the raid, one aoe heal with 1500 potency and that's it. It'd be the most played job by a mile. They honestly might as well do that and cater to their clearly intended audience instead of stringing their handful of remaining MMO players along on false hope. The majority of players who want to actually play a game quit for other MMO's or rolled dps long ago.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

This was always the strangest of bizarre takes to me. I've played multiple MMOs before this one. FF14 is the first game I've ever seen with I pLaY a HeALeR TO heAL, HeALeRS SHouLd HeAL ONLY advocacy group. I've never seen an RPG where anyone's argued this. It's the weirdest box to cage the healer role in, and it's so anti-reality that it hurts my brain.

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It's because FFXIV is **extremely** casual from the get go, despite the game telling you in multiple instances that DPS as a healer is recommended. The bar for job competency is extremely low.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Most healers in FF14 are simply terrible players. I mean, we have people who claim P5-8s is a big jump in healing when you heal less than in Normal modes in other games. It's still a joke of a tier in terms of healing.

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It's not just a healer thing. The general playerbase as a whole is pretty bad. I was in Tower of Zot yesterday and I, as a Sage, did more damage on trash packs AND bosses than both of the "DPS".

Yes I think one or both were new, and I completely understand that, but by level 80 you should at minimum know a basic ST rotation and AoE rotation. That's not asking for much.

Hell, I even joked at the beginning when they said they were new: "The goal is to do more damage than the healer". They failed that goal that day.

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Originally Posted by Osmond

Just a setup to consolidate the fairies in 1 button to give that free hot bar a new ability for 7.0. A returning, improved ability? That’s what I’m assuming.

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CBU3 and repackaging removed abilities and giving them back later. Name a better duo.

…….all I can think of to add a new ability, that cost fairy gauge(they need tools to use that thing and not just a tether) is……lol. It’ll be funny if it does a AoE crit buff of 3% for 50 fairy gauge. May as well be the shield healer to have crit buffs as its identity. Let SGE have the high dmg DPS.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

FF14 players would be absolutely delighted with a healer that simply has a 400 potency DoT with infinite duration, pulses a passive HoT on the raid, one aoe heal with 1500 potency and that's it. It'd be the most played job by a mile. They honestly might as well do that and cater to their clearly intended audience instead of stringing their handful of remaining MMO players along on false hope. The majority of players who want to actually play a game quit for other MMO's or rolled dps long ago.

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This is what I want. It wouldn't end the arguments (because let's face it, nothing ends MMO players bickering over job design and balance), but it at least would settle the eternal Sylphie clamoring for what amounts to a green limited job. You want to feel skilled and accomplished with an APM of 6? Have at it. Be my guest. Watch your visual novel movie and pretend you're an accomplished video game player. Dance in Limsa with your legend title having pressed your heal spell 15 times in the whole instance. You go you.