SE Please don't destroy Sage like the other healers

After the 4.0 SCH was deleted and remade like some kind of a sad parody of what Hydaelyn did to Zodiark, I finally sucked it up and tried the Sage on this fresh character and am very impressed. Is it perfect? No. But, it's far more fun than the other jobs to me...which, makes me nervous that SE will absolutely target and break it too. For the first time in a while I think I've found a job that I enjoy playing.

Maybe I shouldn't be so paranoid, but I honestly wonder if they even want healers to have fun or if we should just play like automatons spamming 1-button endlessly in silence. Sorta feels like a video game version of "You'll own nothing and be happy," kinda thing--but, please Square...don't try to fix Sage and/or change it. Just leave it be if you don't mind!

Focus your energies on AST and SCH instead :rolleyes:

It's not like Sage has riveting gameplay. it's just a copy and pasted SCH with less jank due to no fairy. The job still has a few odd design choices of its own because they do not or cannot innovate with healers.

When the package you ordered arrived in pieces.

Damn I must be playing SGE incorrectly then? So many 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 still, doesn't feel different from the its sibling healers. U_U

Sage has a gap closer and they get to keep their Addersgall even when they die as it continues to generate. That's what I like about Sage. I'm struggling to see what else could make it feel so superior to the other Healers. I guess shielding on the move is cool too. I main Scholar myself so I've learned to heal despite the cast times and now I don't even think about it.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Damn I must be playing SGE incorrectly then? So many 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 still, doesn't feel different from the its sibling healers. U_U

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I like being able to bounce between shielding and healing while using my dot as a defacto regen before spamming my same ole' basic dps button though...that's why I said it's not perfect. But, if SE starts stripping the job down like it's done the others I imagine the things I like about this job too will be destroyed.

Button spamming is the worst design ever and I absolutely hate that Yoshi did this to healers. No mistake--but, Sage is least boring of the 4 and for that I'm happy!

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Originally Posted by Faidid

I like being able to bounce between shielding and healing while using my dot as a defacto regen before spamming my same ole' basic dps button though...that's why I said it's not perfect. But, if SE starts stripping the job down like it's done the others I imagine the things I like about this job too will be destroyed.

Button spamming is the worst design ever and I absolutely hate that Yoshi did this to healers. No mistake--but, Sage is least boring of the 4 and for that I'm happy!

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I mean, I'm not gonna tell you you're not allowed to enjoy it, and if you love the job, then that's awesome. But I just feel confused. I've dumped many hours into SGE because I am obsessed with its aesthetic and style, and I have no idea what it has that the other healers don't have. If Toxikon wasn't one of the most useless buttons in the entire game, maybe it'd be a step above the others, but it actually feels like it has less to work with than everyone else despite being the healer that heals by attacking.

I actually have no idea if it's possible to make SGE more boring. I guess you could take away Phelgma if you wanted to ruin the job, but what else is there?

This thread is an example of what I've said about this forum for a bit. Someone comes in and says they like something, and people jumping on the bandwagon to tell them they're wrong.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

It's not like Sage has riveting gameplay. it's just a copy and pasted SCH with less jank due to no fairy. The job still has a few odd design choices of its own because they do not or cannot innovate with healers.

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...the first suggesting the player is wrong to think it's interesting, the second saying he's wrong for thinking it and SCH are different (they are), and the third using the opportunity to attack the Devs.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

When the package you ordered arrived in pieces.

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Not ENTIRELY clear, but definitely disagreement (I think you were going for "SGE could have been this great thing it was billed as but failed at meeting that expectation/archetype"?)

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Damn I must be playing SGE incorrectly then? So many 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 still, doesn't feel different from the its sibling healers. U_U

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A somewhat hyperbolic opening which is also expressing disagreement, a ridicule of what the other player sees as enjoyable, and a statement of conflicting opinion that is only justified in the most tenuous way possible (comparing to the core DPS rotation...on a Healer.)

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Sage has a gap closer and they get to keep their Addersgall even when they die as it continues to generate. That's what I like about Sage. I'm struggling to see what else could make it feel so superior to the other Healers. I guess shielding on the move is cool too. I main Scholar myself so I've learned to heal despite the cast times and now I don't even think about it.

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This was the only post that wasn't really that, and noted how they could see some of what the OP meant and wasn't outright calling him out as wrong in some way.

...oh, to answer this one; SGE leans on AG while SCH avoids AF heals/mits, SGE has mobile shielding which can be a DPS gain if long movement is needed and you don't have some other tools (you can use the Toxicon generated and this can kinda be shoehorned into WHM Lily use back in ShB as a movement option) where SCH would want to use a Ruin 2 and (if available) Energy Drain, SGE doesn't have to give up Kardia to generate AG, but can only generate 1 with its 90 sec CD vs SCH generating 3 at the cost of Eos going away for 30 sec, and SGE's GCD shields are more responsive (by about 1.5 sec, which can sometimes matter) than SCH's. SGE's oGCDs are often also more direct and "what's on the tin" than SCH's. And aesthetically, they have a completely different feel to them with SGE being more lasers and forcefields with SCH leaning more into power words, glyphs, and magical sphere barriers.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I mean, I'm not gonna tell you you're not allowed to enjoy it, and if you love the job, then that's awesome. But I just feel confused. I've dumped many hours into SGE because I am obsessed with its aesthetic and style, and I have no idea what it has that the other healers don't have. If Toxikon wasn't one of the most useless buttons in the entire game, maybe it'd be a step above the others, but it actually feels like it has less to work with than everyone else despite being the healer that heals by attacking.

I actually have no idea if it's possible to make SGE more boring. I guess you could take away Phelgma if you wanted to ruin the job, but what else is there?

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You were nice enough (and I mean that legitimately, not sarcastically) to say it's fine and even awesome if he likes it.

As for making SGE more boring - remove Plegma and Pneuma, remove Addersgall and the 4 oGCDs associated with it. And for added points, remove the visual effects on its spells. Those things would collectively make it more boring. Toxicon is a great movement tool, so I'm not at all sure it's "one of the most useless buttons in the entire game"...it's more useful than Ruin 2 and now easier to generate thanks to EuPrognosis breaking on you generating one.

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I dunno, I'm trying to avoid posting in here, but this is the kind of thing I'm talking about where this subforum doesn't seem to allow for people to actually...like Healers.

Or even a single Healer.

Maybe the posters don't intend it to be that way, but...it kinda comes across that way.

Lmao,, Renathras jumping in right away to quote people out of context and stir up drama. People have disagreed with OP, so what? I would tend to agree that it doesn't really feel that different from the other healers, and could have some improvement, but if OP likes it, good for them.


"I dunno, I'm trying to avoid posting in here" - what does this even mean? but this is the kind of thing I'm talking about where this subforum doesn't seem to allow for people to actually...like Healers.

Or even a single Healer. Maybe the posters don't intend it to be that way, but...it kinda comes across that way"

OK, this was pretty stale bait by now. Maybe it will work better in the e DPS and tank forums.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

"I dunno, I'm trying to avoid posting in here" - what does this even mean? but this is the kind of thing I'm talking about where this subforum doesn't seem to allow for people to actually...like Healers.

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Cos the last time he was in here he got rolled like pizza dough trying to 'reason' with the biggest example of unenlightened, inconsiderate, generally elitist toxic, etc, player: me. Surprised he came back, not surprised it was to snipe at people for disagreeing with OP's assertion of SGE being fun

As for the topic, I prefer SGE over SCH, not because of one being more 'fun' than the other per se, they're about equal really (not a compliment), but because of aesthetic and functionality. Like, I prefer Kerachole to Soil, I prefer Panhaima to Seraph/Consolation, I prefer Holos to Fey Blessing, and I definitely prefer being able to run from one pack to the next in a dungeon without having to worry about the sudden realization of 'oops I forgot to click Heel, and the fairy despawned itself'

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Lmao,, Renathras jumping in right away to quote people out of context and stir up drama. People have disagreed with OP, so what? I would tend to agree that it doesn't really feel that different from the other healers, and could have some improvement, but if OP likes it, good for them.


"I dunno, I'm trying to avoid posting in here" - what does this even mean? but this is the kind of thing I'm talking about where this subforum doesn't seem to allow for people to actually...like Healers.

Or even a single Healer. Maybe the posters don't intend it to be that way, but...it kinda comes across that way"

OK, this was pretty stale bait by now. Maybe it will work better in the e DPS and tank forums.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Cos the last time he was in here he got rolled like pizza dough trying to 'reason' with the biggest example of unenlightened, inconsiderate, generally elitist toxic, etc, player: me. Surprised he came back, not surprised it was to snipe at people for disagreeing with OP's assertion of SGE being fun

As for the topic, I prefer SGE over SCH, not because of one being more 'fun' than the other per se, they're about equal really (not a compliment), but because of aesthetic and functionality. Like, I prefer Kerachole to Soil, I prefer Panhaima to Seraph/Consolation, I prefer Holos to Fey Blessing, and I definitely prefer being able to run from one pack to the next in a dungeon without having to worry about the sudden realization of 'oops I forgot to click Heel, and the fairy despawned itself'

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And this is why I'm avoiding this forum for the most part.

Full quotes are "out of context"? THAT'S your argument? "out of context" means you remove a portion of a quote from a larger statement that could have clarified it or added additional data to show it isn't saying what it initially appears to be. Taking full quotes cannot be "out of context", kind of by definition. And it's interesting you consider someone pointing out an antagonistic reception to be "stirring up drama" and not the antagonistic reception itself...

"rolled like pizza dough"?

/sigh

Yeah...

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EDIT: So you know, I won't be bothering with further replies. I've long ago given up on the notion of respectful discussion here. Interestingly, the other forums aren't so bad. They don't try to attack and run off dissenting voices.

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Originally Posted by Faidid

I like being able to bounce between shielding and healing while using my dot as a defacto regen before spamming my same ole' basic dps button though...that's why I said it's not perfect. But, if SE starts stripping the job down like it's done the others I imagine the things I like about this job too will be destroyed.

Button spamming is the worst design ever and I absolutely hate that Yoshi did this to healers. No mistake--but, Sage is least boring of the 4 and for that I'm happy!

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First of all, now that I read my reply again, it may come off as snarky/downplaying your enjoyment despite my initial intention to be satirical. If that makes you feel bad then my apologies.

Second of all, there’s completely nothing wrong in enjoying SGE (good for you, in fact!). ty_taurus described perfectly in this front.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Lmao,, Renathras jumping in right away to quote people of context[…]

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There’s a reason I’ve been using the ignore list… Unfortunately if somebody replies, the list is virtually useless.

You’d think they’d learn after being burnt over here, but they’re probably tired getting the similar sort of responses after baiting in DPS forums.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Toxicon is a great movement tool, so I'm not at all sure it's "one of the most useless buttons in the entire game"...it's more useful than Ruin 2 and now easier to generate thanks to EuPrognosis breaking on you generating one.

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If Toxikon were removed, there would be a nearly non-existent difference in SGE's performance across the duration of a fight. Sure it's technically stronger than Ruin 2 and not a DPS less, but most of the time you only get 3 uses of it across an entire fight. What difference does that amount to at the end of the day? Something like a difference of 0.04% of a boss' HP bar?

I...forgot we even had Ruin II as a SCH until you mentioned that. There are just so few times where it's used...

OP, glad you enjoy sage! I don’t think they’ll mess with it too much in 7.0 bc it’s the only healer (aside from maybe whm) that is mostly ok.

Everyone else, how many times will you bite down on the same shiny piece of bait?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

*Attacking people*

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You're known for being a chore to respond to so consider this the only time. Do not put words in my mouth. Onto the ignore list and I'll be nice to others by removing quoted text.

Should've done that earlier honestly.

Sage is a strictly inferior scholar clone with an under-utilised knock-off dark arts. There is nothing to destroy.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Sage is a strictly inferior scholar clone with an under-utilised knock-off dark arts. There is nothing to destroy.

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Mfw people keep calling Sage the Disc. Priest of FFXIV when Scholar was already that but way better. ._.

I still miss AST 3.0 - AST 4.0 and WHM was a lot of fun in stormbound with Aero 3, it's AoE satisfying DoT

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

It's not like Sage has riveting gameplay. it's just a copy and pasted SCH with less jank due to no fairy. The job still has a few odd design choices of its own because they do not or cannot innovate with healers.

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100% this.

Fey Union could be an exact copy of Kardia and SCH would play better. Hell Kardia is nothing more than the old embrace macros we all made back in the day that CBU3 said they hated us doing and forced us to stop by taking away our pet hotbar / Embrace action

The person ask simple thing and all the angry entitled sch ast and whm with their flames just bashing a topic that is nothing but a request. Can yall put these negativies in yall own post or the other complaint ones and leave the people who enjoy sage alone. I swear these forums are as bad and toxic as the dead by day light forums for 0 reasons.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

It's not like Sage has riveting gameplay. it's just a copy and pasted SCH with less jank due to no fairy. The job still has a few odd design choices of its own because they do not or cannot innovate with healers.

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Didnt yall say this about ast when it had duo stance?

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

Didnt yall say this about ast when it had duo stance?

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Having a stance that locks you into either shields or regens for the duration of the fight isn't innovative.
Changing talents/ spec in WoW or switching Souls in Rift isn't innovative gameplay, it's a basic feature that lets you take a pick before the action takes place and then you're locked to it.

Innovative gameplay was something like extending all active buffs, giving a single skill a massive skill ceiling.
Anything that rewards you for being clever, thinking on your feet or outside the box; switching stance before a fight isn't it. The only clever thing about it was doing the stance dance prepull in ShB to stack shields triple shields so the party could ignore the first aoe even on e8s. Your toolkit was still largely a series of disconnected skills with Neutral/ Horo being the only small exception here.

I know you want to marry Noct stance but if you think this is a good example of innovative or fresh ideas for healers, your bar is really low.

I could give a long list of good, fresh and sometimes even really unusual and innovate ideas from other games.
But FFXIV healers have been stale and bland for years.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Sage is a strictly inferior scholar clone with an under-utilised knock-off dark arts. There is nothing to destroy.

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Same can be said about weeb sch when it had smn kit which was born from a dps job.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Having a stance that locks you into either shields or regens for the duration of the fight isn't innovative.
Changing talents/ spec in WoW or switching Souls in Rift isn't innovative gameplay, it's a basic feature that lets you take a pick before the action takes place and then you're locked to it.

Innovative gameplay was something like extending all active buffs, giving a single skill a massive skill ceiling.
Anything that rewards you for being clever, thinking on your feet or outside the box; switching stance before a fight isn't it. The only clever thing about it was doing the stance dance prepull in ShB to stack shields triple shields so the party could ignore the first aoe even on e8s. Your toolkit was still largely a series of disconnected skills with Neutral/ Horo being the only small exception here.

I know you want to marry Noct stance but if you think this is a good example of innovative or fresh ideas for healers, your bar is really low.

I could give a long list of good, fresh and sometimes even really unusual and innovate ideas from other games.
But FFXIV healers have been stale and bland for years.

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I didnt say anything about noct exclusively, just asked a question lol wowie.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

I didnt say anything about noct exclusively, just asked a question lol wowie.

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"lol wowie?"
After I was explicitely saying that this kind of feature is NOT, in fact, a sign of innovative gameplay?
AST had stances from HW until ShB but the really innovate thing in it's toolkit was extending buffs - which had nothing to do with your stance. So how are stances important for this? You're being disingenius here.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

"lol wowie?"
After I was explicitely saying that this kind of feature is NOT, in fact, a sign of innovative gameplay?
AST had stances from HW until ShB but the really innovate thing in it's toolkit was extending buffs - which had nothing to do with your stance. So how are stances important for this? You're being disingenius here.

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Yes I agree but not counting its cards. People would bash its healing kit during those times stating its a wanna be copy whm or sch and was barely different

Perhaps people bashed it because its core kit was a literal cut and paste of WHM. It had cure, cure 2, regen, 2 medicas. In terms of healing, the main thing that split AST from WHM at 3.0 was It’s ability to extend hots along with other buffs, this was balanced by it’s regen being a tick shorter if I remember rightly. Where it really diverged from WHM was its lack of a throughput CD though and this was highlighted right out of the gate with Gordias.

At the end of the day SE are going to puss off people no matter what they do or don’t do at this stage. They are stuck in a stale path that is at odds with the actual game. There is no choice they can make that is going to please everyone because of how much needs to be done at this stage to truly course correct healing in this game. /shrug

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

The person ask simple thing and all the angry entitled sch ast and whm with their flames just bashing a topic that is nothing but a request. Can yall put these negativies in yall own post or the other complaint ones and leave the people who enjoy sage alone. I swear these forums are as bad and toxic as the dead by day light forums for 0 reasons.

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Pro tip: The world isn't out to get you. People are allowed to post opinions that diverge from yours that, in fact, are not toxic. I don't recall seeing people saying people aren't allowed to like something. Calm down with the white knighting for others. I call it being critical of something and even want improvements of my own but I am not going to bother discussing things that probably won't happen by the devs. That's why I typically do not participate in threads where people make their own class or builds.

Sage is the healer I in fact use because they kept messing with AST. Doesn't mean I don't find the addersting system stupid or the ability to not be able to turn off eukrasia an oversight. I waited 4+ years for a new healer because they kept screwing with the older ones and I was given one that has a copycat of a preloaded excog, sacred soil, indom, embrace etc at the exact same levels with a minor twist.

-Signed, a former pre-ShB AST.

Edit: Woudn't be surprised if they removed icarus in 7.0 (which is fun) because sage has a gap closer and the other healers do not lol.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Woudn't be surprised if they removed icarus in 7.0 (which is fun) because sage has a gap closer and the other healers do not lol.

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I don't really play Sage, but I kinda figured they get Icarus to make up for the fact that they're the only healer without a ground-targeted AoE heal.

In that regard I believe Sage's kerachole to be the equivalent of SCH's Sacred Soil. Both do the same thing and both get the heal over time at level 78. Only difference is Sage has theirs around themselves rather than a spot on the ground.

I kinda like that aspect at least since I remember getting mildly miffed about some tanks who are allgeric to standing in the big dome of safety when I used SCH.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Pro tip: The world isn't out to get you. People are allowed to post opinions that diverge from yours that, in fact, are not toxic. I don't recall seeing people saying people aren't allowed to like something. Calm down with the white knighting for others. I call it being critical of something and even want improvements of my own but I am not going to bother discussing things that probably won't happen by the devs. That's why I typically do not participate in threads where people make their own class or builds.

Sage is the healer I in fact use because they kept messing with AST. Doesn't mean I don't find the addersting system stupid or the ability to not be able to turn off eukrasia an oversight. I waited 4+ years for a new healer because they kept screwing with the older ones and I was given one that has a copycat of a preloaded excog, sacred soil, indom, embrace etc at the exact same levels with a minor twist.

-Signed, a former pre-ShB AST.

Edit: Woudn't be surprised if they removed icarus in 7.0 (which is fun) because sage has a gap closer and the other healers do not lol.

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Rest assured I dearly and want my stormblood ast badly however remember ast use to be bash this way like sage about being a whm clone cause it kit. Yes there is copy of sage from sch but ast is kinda the same too from whm with minor twists. Incarus is nice but its clunky, I wish it was more fluent like blms gap close as it has some wierd lag back that can cause something to still hit you that you was trying to zoom from.

IMO ast should be given a gap close as uriganer has a wicked ability where he teleport out danger from first boss in that 88 ew dungeon that uses frost bite and seek mechanic. Come to think of it whm yholta has some bms spells rotation, a lil more weaker than her dps form but its something. I dont get why npcs gets more usefulness of kit than players. Blm yholsta even has cure 2 like what the heck SE.

I forgot to add wasnt stormblood sch a copy of summoner? It had all or most of summon dps tools until they took it away in sbh? So even sch at one point was a copy clone not to mention same weapon and battle stances.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

I forgot to add wasnt stormblood sch a copy of summoner? It had all or most of summon dps tools until they took it away in sbh? So even sch at one point was a copy clone not to mention same weapon and battle stances.

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HW SCH was much closer in gameplay to old SMN in that it's stick was getting a lot of dots on a lot of mobs very quickly through Bane and Shadowflare. In early 3.0 SMN was by far the strongest DPS for blasting through dungeon trash and SCH had enough of it's kit that it could legitimately out DPS many actual DPS jobs even in the hands of world prog level players. However, even then, that was really only in large AoE trash pull situations. On single target stuff, SCH was far far removed from SMN. I'd argue that SCH was actually gutted in Stormblood as well. 4.0 SCH was an absolute shell of what it was pre expansion and it took a pretty hefty numbers buff along with a new Miasma II and other adjustments to get it back on track. Shadowbringers repeated the 'gutting' but across the board rather than so specifically aiming it at SCH alone.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I don't really play Sage, but I kinda figured they get Icarus to make up for the fact that they're the only healer without a ground-targeted AoE heal.

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Also because a lot of our abilities require us to be right up the butt of the mobs.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

HW SCH was much closer in gameplay to old SMN in that it's stick was getting a lot of dots on a lot of mobs very quickly through Bane and Shadowflare. In early 3.0 SMN was by far the strongest DPS for blasting through dungeon trash and SCH had enough of it's kit that it could legitimately out DPS many actual DPS jobs even in the hands of world prog level players. However, even then, that was really only in large AoE trash pull situations. On single target stuff, SCH was far far removed from SMN. I'd argue that SCH was actually gutted in Stormblood as well. 4.0 SCH was an absolute shell of what it was pre expansion and it took a pretty hefty numbers buff along with a new Miasma II and other adjustments to get it back on track. Shadowbringers repeated the 'gutting' but across the board rather than so specifically aiming it at SCH alone.

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Good summary, which is why I'm worried. It seems Square really is only good at breaking, gutting, dismantled, stripping down, and utterly erasing things about jobs that make them unique, interesting, and/or effective. 1-button dps spam is the most obnoxious, horrible design I've ever seen and I can't believe it has Yoshi's name all over it. You'd think he'd have known better, but even to this day he DEFENDS it!